This video was a pleasant surprise! I've been preaching this for a couple of decades. I ran my first hurdle race at age 41 in a Master's track competition. The height and spacing is changed for Master's track on a decade age group basis. At age 40-49, the height went down to 39", but it was the spacing that prevented me from taking the proper 3 steps except for the first 3 or 4 hurdles. Then you must switch to an extra step (if you can jump on the "wrong" leg), or most commonly, two extra steps for a five step pattern. At age 50, the hurdles went down to 36" (yea, but not a big deal), but the spacing went down to 8.5 meters - basically we ran the women's hurdles (100 m instead of 110 m). I was able to run the whole flight for a season or two, then the age factor drove me back to mixing 3, 4, and sometimes 5 steps. The elite Master's hurdlers could keep doing it in three strides until about their mid-fifties - by 58 years old nobody (even ex-Olympians) could do the whole flight in three steps. At the front of the age group, the hurdles are a blast to run. By the back of the age group, the fun is gone. I didn't feel too put out about it as a decathlete, I wasn't as technical as the good hurdlers or as flexible or as fast. But the random powers that be could easily have just re-scheduled the height changes to mid-decade groups, and still protected the dominance of the best hurdlers. As a USATF track official (retired), I can say any of the variable height/distance proposals is a non-starter. Bucking hurdles is a big burden in a track meet, and track meets run long enough as it is. Hurdlers are failed sprinters, and sprinters are pole vaulters that are afraid of heights, lol..

@torunit4620

2 ай бұрын

As I commented above, I'm in your boat. The hardest time is the older few years of an age group. Compensating for extra steps between ruins your speed. I'm still a senior official, might even know you. I was in some of those discussions about moving hurdle spacings but nothing has changed except the M60 start to first hurdle distance and changing women's age groups over decades.

As someone who's 6'3"-6'4", this would have been nice to know in High School! lol

@JoeSmith-fi8ip

2 ай бұрын

Would still have to be an elite level flat sprinter 😅

@NickWrightDataYT

2 ай бұрын

@@JoeSmith-fi8ip I was in cross country! But yeah sprinting is different than long distance running (which I HATED, like, END ALREADY lol)

@aryantyagi12a

2 ай бұрын

​@@NickWrightDataYTthen why did you participated in it .

@ETCubing

2 ай бұрын

I was 6’3” in high school and ran half marathons, but I did high jump and pole vault because the height was so much more of an advantage for feild events than my endurance was for distance events lmao.

@shyryTsr2k

2 ай бұрын

I'm 5'4 and grew up playing soccer and run a lot. I have the advantage of being shorter and more agile than taller players since I have a lower center of gravity. That's my guess anyway

A mistake to correct: at 6:44, the graphs suggest that sprinters are taller than hurdlers, but the transcript states that hurdlers are taller than sprinters.

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Ah yes thank you! We labeled them incorrectly, thank you for pointing that out!

@murmol444

2 ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld maybe add this to video description? Came down to check this but found only in the comments

@hitchikerspie

2 ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld Echoing the point from @maththeworld would be nice to see a pinned correction, or even something in the description perhaps

@jmvonheim

Ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld yeah i noticed this too, would be good to put a disclaimer somewhere

@eduardogonzalez8485

4 күн бұрын

Thanks I was so confused

Well I guess we soon will talk about Ice Hockey players birthday🤣

@osoreo3697

2 ай бұрын

I’m curious-what about ice hockey players’ birthdays?0:

@Petch85

2 ай бұрын

@@osoreo3697 It turns out that top players are more likely to be born in Q1 of a year than Q4. It is a little hard to explain in an yt comment. But you can look up other yt videos about it. A short video could be "Why Are So Many NHL Players Born In January?" it is 3 min. But I think "Malcolm Gladwell Explains Why Human Potential Is Being Squandered" is a better video and still only 11 min. But it is still not the full story. You can also look up the stats, but they only tell you when fx NHL players are born, not why this is the case.

@galois6569

2 ай бұрын

It is an interesting topic, but unlike hurdles it is not inherent to the sport, rather it is part of how we recognize young talent in the sport. Honestly this is something all youth sports with age categories based on birth years have. Even school can have this problem where the older kids for their year appear smarter, and hence receive more encouragement.

@t_kups8309

2 ай бұрын

@@Petch85 Here's a short explanation based on my experience with the sport. Ice hockey junios are put into "skill brackets" from a very young age. When you're only less than 10 years old, 12 months or even 6 months is a massive difference in physical development, hence kids born in January are more likely to be sorted into the "skilled kids" category. The "skilled kids" get higher quality training and a more challenging environment, which further increases the skill gap. It's very stupid.

@Petch85

2 ай бұрын

@@t_kups8309 Yes. But i feel like this is only scratching the surface. How if this different from starting in school. I think the big picture here is that "talent" just means better than what we would expect. You need to work hard to succeed, but it is not enough there are also a lot of random factors that in the end will be a big part of whether you will succeed in the end. I think idea of "capitalization rates" might be helpful to locate the problems, but trying to solve them will be very hard.Also note that it is much easier to study this in sports and what is why you see sports mention all the time, but the problem is everywhere. I have also seen some studies on athletes that have changed sports later in there life and had more succes with the new sport than the old one. And there are also some studies on half-time vs full-time athletes and the importance of quantity of training vs high quality training and similar things done with music students. But understanding how to get the most out of a persons potential or knowing a persons potential in the first place is super hard. But in some sports there are and optimal body shape and in others there is an optimal birthday.🤷‍♂

This isn’t about sport, but statistics also has evidence that a larger hand span makes piano playing much easier. (That’s why PASK has been advocating for narrow-sized piano keyboards for over 20 years)

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Another great example of how our bodies give advantages to different activities! Hand size is important in a lot of instruments. Guitar also being one.

@ValkyRiver

2 ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld But unlike other instruments like violin, guitar, or cello, which come in fractional sizes, the piano is one-size-fits-all, and it’s even an XL size. Over 85% of females and 25% of males have hands too small for the conventional keyboard. That’s why PASK has been advocating for fractional sized piano keyboards.

@stevebentley4516

2 ай бұрын

​@@MathTheWorld One of the reasons the women distributions are different is because women have more variations in leg lengths. And also their hurdles are shorter relatively obviously. But their body torso leg ratios can be more different.

@98danielray

2 ай бұрын

​@@stevebentley4516thats why they also analyze footage, among other things, in the video

@arthurnorcome3967

2 ай бұрын

Sounds like a hole in the market.

This matches what I have analyzed. I've been hurdling for well over 50 years, meaning I have been through most of the age divisions. I'm short for a hurdler so as a teen I had to jump up. When I hit adult age, it was another 3 inches higher. I too had grown but never made it close to 6 feet. I was fast enough I could beat Olympic hurdlers over the first hurdle and scare the hell out of them, but I was nowhere to be seen in the finish photo because I couldn't maintain speed with all the extra jumping required. Now as an old man, my body is no longer as fast as it was, by a lot, but my hurdle form is actually better because the height has been lowered closer to my inseam and now is below the average height of my hips wile running. While I can't jump (much at all), I don't have to. Still I am fighting my limited stride length to stretch to the (arbitrary) distance between Masters hurdles. I will never be able to improve much, just chart the decay.

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Great insight! Thank you for sharing your experience

I am not a hurdler but love this analysis. One suggestion for a reason the female hight distribution is larger is that female leg to torso ratio varies more than male. As we are just using hight as a determining factor for leg length this should be important.

Fantastic analysis. Is there a write up on this somewhere? Another example of bias introduced by rules is figure skating. Almost a century prior to 1991 a core part of figure skating competitions was, well, skating figures. They were called compulsory figures. Figures were a core of this sport and what gave it a name. Success in figures depends mainly on the amount and quality of your practice regardless of your height or weight. Figures were abolished in 1991 as they didn't sell well on TV. Main discipline now was subjective short/free skating - performing elements with music. Due to the scandals, a new judging system, IJS, was introduced in 2006, which placed scores to many elements progressively. "Easy" elements (like step sequence or single jumps) costs less, "hard" elements (like quad jumps) costs more. What could go wrong? Obviously, Goodhart's effects kicked in, people started chasing points i.e. "hard elements" aka jumps. Few people care about working on actual skating skills nowadays. You win competitions by performing more multirotational jumps. And you win in multi-rotational jumps by having smaller body, all other things being equal. Which created a bias towards pre-puberty girls being champions. Fifteen years old skater can't win over herself at 20 y.o - despite being 5 years more skillfull - because her body will grow up a bit and won't allow for the same performance anymore. Naturally that exacerbated bias towards early specialisation and rush to learn triple and quadruple jumps before puberty. That led to a massive increase of overuse injuries in single skaters. But it also created this bias in self-selection for the sport - everyone who is not a pre-puberty girl is not considred a candidate for this sport anymore. International federation responded by increasing the age of "Senior" skaters from 15 to 17, but it doesn't solve the major reason of why the age/gender distribution for figure skating now looks like female-only gaussian with a mean at 8-9 y.o. What I want to emphasize here is that "rotation in the air" which now brings most of the scores and introduced this bias is not even related to skill of figure skating. It was an unintentional consequence of a rule change. The age/gender distribution for this sport used to be very different for the past century until figures were abolished.

@x-act

Ай бұрын

I completely agree..... in the past 20-ish years especially, figure skating has basically become jumping on ice. There are still aesthetic elements, but any skater worth their salt knows where the real points are- quads and triple axel, because that's what the judging system rewards. Art is subjective but number of rotations is a fixed value. This basically means 16 year-olds with often subpar skating skills are doing triples 5 hours a day because their joints can still take it, and better skater who are often more fun to watch aren't even on the podium. I see some hope for change with the point increase of Malinin's quad axel not being as high as the point increase for Trusova's quads..... the board is slowly showing that that jumps are not a cheat code. But there's still a lot to be done. Increasing the senior season age further will basically make it so that junior skater (at least female ones) will be coring higher points than the adults, which would be quite embarrassing for FS as a sport.

This is so relatable. I loved doing the hurdles when I was younger, but as I grew older the hurdles got higher, but I didn't get taller anymore. Stuck at a body length of 178 cm with relatively short legs, I decided to call quits on my favourite track event when I turned 18

I'm a high school hurdler, so to find out that my height of 181.61 cm comes in just above the cutoff is nice.

@stevelau7694

2 ай бұрын

Only slightly taller than you and have only tried jumping over hurdles just for fun and really wasn't difficult without any practice. Never knew there's actually an optimal range. Guess you need enough height to get over without really jumping but if you are insanely tall, just can't move legs fast enough

@igordinizrocha1669

14 күн бұрын

​@@stevelau7694 the downside being you can't run at top speed if you're too tall

I'm suprised by the real world use of normal distribution

Hurdle size could be indexed to the hurdlers size, but then we would be back to favouring specific body proportions

@UberTastical22

Ай бұрын

Could be leg length or total height, but I think having multiple hurdle events at different hurdle heights is the best idea

I love the editing of this video, you can see the effort put into it while it also feeling kind of "home made" if that makes any sense, I love that everything is explained only using drawings or images

As a 5'3 hurdler i feel this 😢, great video though!!

@shyryTsr2k

2 ай бұрын

Respect bro! I'm slightly taller at 5'4 lmao

The athletes adjust the hurdles idea is kinda nice! It would make for horrorible logistics, but a greater competition.

@romansummers119

Ай бұрын

I love this idea. As a spectator, you wouldn't be sure of the result until the very last hurdle. Thrilling

@igordinizrocha1669

14 күн бұрын

I think the best of both worlds would be to add different hurdle heights plus the ability to move the hurdles. They just have to add two lines in each hurdle position that would be the space the athletes can position their hurdles in.

I think allowing you to set where the hurdles are, within reason, is a good way to deal with this.

@TomcoDesigns

2 ай бұрын

Within reason is a good caveat. I would stack all mine at the end otherwise, and just yolo towards the finish line

Well, it _is_ the same as the others. The sport is "jump over these specific height hurdles these specific differences apart". it's not "jump over things arbitrarily". it's a weird sport, but not because it's unfairly biased towards a particular body type

I would say an interesting thing you'll find is the height bias will change over time and often not upwards. One of the reasons there is a lack of distribution in men is that athletes used to be and still are today trainers would simply refuse to train someone who did not fit the height stats although less so as trainers are realising that it is St upid, and the interesting thing this has caused is heights in a number of sports has started to drop, this is also because of nations who's height is on average shorter.

Wild. This reminds me of my experience growing up. I’m a tad on the shorter side & was elite in my conference/region at the hurdles thru junior high where men & women’s hurdles were lower & the same size. When I moved up to high school, I was massively slowed down because I could no longer just glide over the barriers but had to jump. I ended up quitting the following year with among some other reasons, while being able to stride three steps smoothly, the height requirements meant I was never going to get near to breaking school & meet records like I did in junior high so it seemed like a waste.

I would keep the hurdles the same or lower them 5 cm but I would give total freedom on how they are positioned on your lane, it would be more fun like that. What would you do? Spread them equally, put them all at the start and accelerate? It would create metas and weird strategies etc.

optimizing the distance between jumps to be disavantages to taller sprints or sprints with 'longer strides' would be an interesting experiment to see if if it get more diversity in the sport.

Outstanding video. Even among the top hurdles its clear that the hurdle heights and spacing effect peoples races differently. Some athletes struggle over the first few hurdles. Other athletes struggle over the later hurdles because of their longer strides. Small changes would have a big difference on yhe winner. I hope you dont mind me making a video on this topic as well.

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Thank you! And yes feel free to use this topic! If you pull anything from our video just credit us please as we love sharing information!

As a boy, I used to be a good sprinter, but not good enough to be projected as worldclass. Attending training was logistically difficult for our family, so we gave it up. It was twenty years ago. Turns out, as a 191 cm dude with a long neck (the only deadweight), maybe I should have continued athletics and transition to hurdles. Damn.

This is such a good video. Loved it. Please make more on athletics events

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

I do have some planned. Stay tuned!

Not to mention hurdle races are already one of the most time consuming and logistically tough events to set up and run, custom heights/distances would never be feasible

Have a variable distance between each hurdle. So it messes up everyone being able to take a natural stride to achieve a fixed number of steps. As an interesting math task, you should find an optimal distribution to kill any height bias.

There definitely need to lower the hurdles for these events. Short people literally cannot compete with high hurdles, but tall people can compete with short hurdles.

@matyaskovecses4404

2 ай бұрын

no, the solution is to raise womens hurdles because your not supposed to be able to walk bover it like the women are

@DylpiqkleSTier

2 ай бұрын

Yeah the issue becomes that it becomes increasingly easier for them to go over them. Literally could become jump normal running at a point

@joneinarmattiasvisser6113

2 ай бұрын

No. Let's make hurdles proportional in height to athletes leg length. Me as a not so tall person would jump over the same hard or easy hurdle as you tall people!😎

@DylpiqkleSTier

2 ай бұрын

@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 eh this is a questionable method as lowering them makes it FAR easier to get over. As shorter people can general jump higher than tall people

@headlibrarian1996

2 ай бұрын

@@matyaskovecses4404 Women’s steeplechase has absurdly low barriers.

Very interesting video! Makes me now wish there was a “free style” hurdle event. Where every runner has to have the same amount of hurdles but they could determine where to place them along the track

@eugenetswong

2 ай бұрын

That's the only way to do it. The truth of the matter is that the height should be based on the height of the knees. I think that if people were given complete control over their hurdles, then they could hurdle them near the beginning and then run the rest of the way.

@stonex3077

2 ай бұрын

there would have to be rules to where to place the hurdles, theres always gonna be one person to stack 8 hurdles in 2 feet and just leap over them

@igordinizrocha1669

14 күн бұрын

Just add some range at each hurdle position. Two lines the athletes where the athletes have to place the hurdles in between

I’m a collegiate high hurdler who happens to be 5’9, so I really appreciate the recognition about the difficulty of not being 6’+. I often feel like if I were just a few inches taller I’d be much much better which is frustrating. Adjusting hurdle distance is really interesting and I think honestly that matters more than the height. It would take forever to setup at meets though, and it would be tough to make sure they’re at the proper distances

@MathTheWorld

6 күн бұрын

I am impressed that you are at the collegiate level! Good Luck! Yeah, the hurdles already slow down the track meet with the setup and take-down, but it interesting to think about how to adjust competition to make it more inclusive.

It's always nice to get good recommendation combining Sports and science, thanks youtube algorithm, I will subscribe. I personally ran hurdles in high school and I did notice that as I got taller and hurdles got taller I got worse at them. For example I ran 15.3 when I was 16-17 on 36" hurdles while being 6'-2"-6'-4 tall But despite me being much faster and stronger when I was 18-19 I only managed to run 15.6 on 39" hurdles while being 6'-5-6'-6" tall. I never ran a 42" hurdles race but I am sure it would be similar situation. My main events were long jump and triple jump. Another clear example to me that men's hurdles are too tall comes from results distribution, for example there's only ~3400 men that ran sub 15.8 while there is ~4500 women that did the same. Hurdles would probably need to be lowered to 39" range for distributions to be more similar. I also like the idea of different lengths between the hurdles. I don't think any of those would actually come into place but who knows, IAAF did announce possibility of long jump from the "Zone" instead of take off board.. we will see

The distances between hurdles should be slightly randomized in such a way that no resonant frequency is especially prominent

Add a "free hurdle" into Olympic, this will be much easier than fixing the original one.

In highschool I think most of our female hurdlers had to 4 step between the hurdles. I really liked the 300 because I was able to run over them hurdle height where I could barely clear the 110 hurdles my senior year.

Open question: why is making a sport into something more people can be competitive at a good thing? (To be clear, I'm not saying it it's a bad thing or even a neutral thing, just that I don't see it as trivial following from universally accepted premises.) Fundamentally, most athletics are comparing to some standard. That standard end up being more or less arbitrary deepening on the sport, but the fact it is a standard is kinda the point. An interesting point is that a lot of sports derive from some sort of real world activity (often military in nature) and that activity isn't necessarily "fair" to the general population (and in some cases it even motivates making it unfair).

@geirmyrvagnes8718

2 ай бұрын

I think the point here is slightly different. In this case, arbitrary rules have made this sport accessible on a competitive level for very few people. Unlike shotput where the very activity itself has done the same thing.

@dainonjensen

Ай бұрын

All implement decisions are arbitrary. The shot would allow for more body types (and more strategies) if it wasn't 16#. It would not be a better event, though. Interestingly, even after taking out the 5'6"Levy from the pool of the 2020 Olympics, the javelin finals had less height variation than the hurdles.

@ninjalectualx

Ай бұрын

A wider range of athletes means we're more likely to see the best human hurdler running hurdles, which is what spectators want. Now we only have "the best hurdler who happens to be within a certain height range"

@benjaminshropshire2900

Ай бұрын

@@ninjalectualx But that presupposes that "the best human hurdler" isn't defined by the ability to do the sport _as it's currently defined._ Why is some new definition for the sport (or alternatively; some different sport) more valid or any less arbitrary than the current one? (I'm not saying the current definition is perfect or even best, but rather that "allows to most people to be competitive" is neither desirable nor undesirable when considering what the sport should be.) When you get right down to it, at a world championship level, every definition is going to exclude something like 99.99999% of all humans, and that's kinda the point. And most of those excluded will be a result of physical attribute outside their control. If hurdles *were* to be changed, I'd propose switching to a non uniform spacing specifically chosen to be pathological. Ensure that basically every competitor has no more than one pair of hurdles that they have an ideal stride length for. Make it a contest about being able to quickly run where you are forced to change your stride length every few steps.

@Alenasup

Ай бұрын

​@@benjaminshropshire2900 because the current definition is arbitrary, and changing it allows for more competitors.

very nice video!

Great video. One thing that wasn’t considered here is the change in height of the hurdles between high school and college/pro. For the men, the hurdle height changes from 39” in high school to the standard 42” in college. Same is true for women. I would be curious to know the impact of that 3” on the height of hurdlers.

Need the same video and analysis on the height bias for basketball

@yaab4845

Ай бұрын

Yes! I assume it’s an even clearer correlation, there’s only like a handful nba players under 6‘1. On the other hand I’ve read that 7ft males born in the US have like a 16% chance of making the nba 😂

@lv2668

Ай бұрын

@@yaab4845 it’s true, it’s crazy if you think about it

2012 Olympic Champion and 2 time World Champ Sally Pearson (AUS) is 5foot6!!!!

This makes me think of two sports. Cycling and Counter-Strike. Cycling: There are many types of races, and the riders looks in some way very different, but also very similar. There are 3 things I think have a big impact. 1. Some countries have better infrastructure, like roads and bicycle lanes. 2. Some countries have better economies, thus you can afford an expensive bike. 3. Some countries have cycling in there history and therefor have a good community where talents can practice. There are not many Asiens and Africans in pro cycling, and I don't think it has anything to do with body type (genetics) Counter-Strike: There are no females on the top teams in Counter-Strike and tropic countries are underrepresented. Here are some ideas, but....🤷‍♂ 1. Females meets more resistance from friends, family, the game design and other players when they try to play the game competitively. 2. Tropic countries have good weather and you might play more outside, where as Scandinavia, Baltic States, Russia, Ukraine etc. have many days with "not the best weather". 3. Countries that do not have good internet connections or a lack of official servers might not be able to play the game with a low enough ping to be able to play the game competitively. As a Scandinavian I am very disappointed that we have not produced a female player that could fit in on one of the top 20 teams in the world. I would argue we have super good female players but it looks like they never get to train and learn with and from the best players. They play in the top of the female scene, but they are never really able to make the move over the the absolut top. And I do not thing it has anything to do with there genetics😂 I love this topic, but sometimes I hate (just a little) the competitiveness aspect of it. You should be able to enjoy basket with your friends even if you are only 5 feet tall. In pursuit of talent and winning we sometimes exclude some people from the group. And we say it is fair cause they are not as good as the other kits, so they have to stay on the bench. But in realty they just don't have the body for the sport they would like to play, or the sport might not even be available to the where they live, cause sport are a big part of our culture.

@dougcorey3830

2 ай бұрын

Wow! Thank you for the detailed thoughts. I hadn't thought about video games, but you bring up some interesting points here. Next weeks video will be about different countries and their ability to produce good hurdlers, and your thoughts about economy and history are right on.

@zerotwoisreal

2 ай бұрын

csgo is not a sport nerd

@caseysmith544

2 ай бұрын

Yes, But a guy from Argentina is now in Cycling tour majors who started in 2000's on a crappy old used steel frame touring bike, bike that can have heavy loads on it while going long distances where old handlebars broke before he got bike so upright handlebars were put on as was all they had.

@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten

2 ай бұрын

Everything you said for cycling is pretty much true for any sport out there. And I would add that one of the reasons that there are no women on the top teams is because women are generally less interested in gaming which reduces the talent pool.

@bradnotbrad

2 ай бұрын

⁠@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten I would assume the largest factor in females being less interested in games is the encouragement by friends and family to play games. It’s seen as outside of the social norms and video games has been a male dominated space for years so it’s not surprising that females trying to enter have a hard time.

I think the speed climbing route is similarly arbitrary, although I think technique can conteract that more than it can in hurdles

Ralph Mann has done all the science you bring up here…. Stride rates, stride lengths, comparison of hurdle height to leg length for males/females, COG vertical force requirements, horizontal force requirements, everything. Males & females both get to 9m/s, the determining factor is hurdle height. I would also be interested in this data for BF%. Just like height, having 7% BF is a key performance descriptor. If you are interested in this I encourage reading “The Mechanics of Sprinting and Hurdling” Ralph Mann 2022 edition.

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for bringing this up. I will look into his analysis. I know his name because I saw it on the Track&Field record board at BYU almost everyday when I was on the team there. His name stood out because he was the only male BYU athlete to ever break a world record while he was in college! (400M Hurdles, or maybe back then it was the 440 Yard hurdles). A female athlete broke a world record in the indoor high hurdles in the late 90's, I believe.

@pmarsh15

2 ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld very cool. As an engineer turned track coach all this is right down my alley! Thanks for getting this track/science overlap out there.

Interesting. I wouldn't mind a change but it would be impossible to do since all athletes would be against it

The same thing goes for any sport with weight classes: If your ideal weight does not match a weight class, you either have to compete in a higher or lower weight class than would be ideal for you. The effect is probably less strong, and ideal weight is harder to define but ultimate it's arbitrarily advantaging some over others

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

Nice point! I hadn't thought about variations within weight classes. I had just thought about weight classes being a strategy to reduce bias and allow more people to compete in certain sports.

3 of the ten fastest all time are between 69 and 70 inches. They represent 2 Olympic GOLD 1 silver and 9 world golds. One is the first and maybe only man to go sub 10 100m and sub 13 110mh. Allen Johnson, Colin Jackson and Omar McLeod

I would set the height as a specific percentage of the athlete’s height and let the athletes choose the spacing with the requirement they take x number of steps between hurdles.

This was very interesting. I wonder if part of the discrepancy between the male and female athlete body types can be explained by more barriers existing for women to get into athletics. Because there are generally fewer opportunities for female athletes - the people who are perceived to be more "generally athletic" at an early age, to which height would be a predicting factor, are probably much more likely to get athletic scholarships, top coaching, family support etc.

The hurdle spacing to elite height ratio being close to the same for men and women is highly suggestive. Give the other assertion being made, it would suggest that the ratio compared to the *average* population height is significantly more different.

Seems like there are more hurdles to become a hurdler than I first thought.

Of course I subscribed. Thanks.

@MathTheWorld

28 күн бұрын

Thank you!

Why the desperation for total inclusivity? Sport (especially at the elite level) is absolutely meant to be preferentially selective to those with the physical attributes which make them best able to perform the objective.

I wonder if there is a similar disparity for the distance events. For example how do 5k/10k athletes compare in height to steeplechase athletes? And is there a diminished gender effect there too. Also, same question for the 400m dash and 400m hurdles. For what it’s worth, elite steeplers hurdle the steeples like the sprint hurdlers do-for the most part, but they can’t knock them over like the sprint hurdlers.

Olympic target shooting also have some very arbitrary rules imo. Especially the 10m air rifle event. Some bullet points are: - mens top level results are probably a little better than top womens results, but the depth of the field is much bigger on the women's side. - the target is at a set height of 140cm +/- 5cm - the adjustments of the rifle are limited in such a way that you hit those linitation the taller you are.

@geirmyrvagnes8718

2 ай бұрын

I don't understand you. I am tall. Why am I missing the target because of that?

They should change the rules and allow each competitor to adjust the distance in between the hurdles.

Have you ever watched a Decathlon hurdle race? The correlation to success is much more related 100m times than height.

@eljanrimsa5843

Ай бұрын

Are there short decathletes?

@dpwr96

Ай бұрын

Brian Clay

@dpwr96

Ай бұрын

Being taller certainly is not a bad thing in the Deca. HJ, PV, Disc and Javelin

4:11 What you're talking about is D2F.

I’m a collegiate 110m hurdler, and I LOVE it. I’m 6’3 but I’m just not exactly fast on foot so although I run decent times, some of my teammates who are shorter than 6’ but much faster than me in the hurdles partially due to footspeed

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. It is similar experience in college, but I was a discus thrower, but pretty lanky and not nearly as strong as the other throwers. I was still competitive because of my technique, but never could get the bulk and power needed to excel. Good Luck!

@tri4cejawn365

Ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld I actually used to compete in the decathlon, but the discus is the one event I just could not get the hang of. I liked the dec but just was competitive in the hurdles, noticeably better in the high jump (those event I did in high school) and far behind in everything else

I’m 5’4” and I relate to that Corgi.

You can see the body type optimization in disc golf pretty clearly. Even though it isn't a "money" sport, it's pretty clear that being very long and lean provides an advantage. like, no coach is grabbing those players. They just simply are the best in the game.

@Henry-qt3py

Ай бұрын

Is the advantage you can throw from closer to the hole when "putting"? Otherwise shouldn't it just be who can throw a disc the furthest and/or most accurately which shouldn't match the best with tall and lean.

Enjoyed this analysis! (Though was confused by the women's graph - until I saw your comment below about mislabelling.) The greater standard deviation in the curves for women was intriguing. Is it just a consequence of the lower hurdle height? Probably not the hurdle rpacing, since as you calculated that's not so different from the men's. But I did wonder, whether there might be different relationships between height and stride length between populations. What exactly is that relationship, and do women show greater variability thus broadening the curve? Maybe more flexible individuals can adjust their strides more easily? Or maybe there's a greater window of optimal take off points when the hurdles are relatively lower? So many questions... It's so long since I hurdled, I've almost forgotten the feel of it. Thanks for the memories, and thanks for the video!

Doesn't Femke Bol switch legs on hurdles?

Very interesting and acute vid! Any thoughts on horse jockeys? Lol

Would have love if same analysis was applied to sports with weight classes like wrestling to see if there are body types that excel even when weight is controlled

@MathTheWorld

11 күн бұрын

That would be interesting. I'll do some thinking and see if I can find out how to get good data on one of these sports.

I shoulda known sooner. I was 6'0" since highschool, which would make me perfect for hurdles.

The problem with letting everyone place the hurdles where they want is logistics. For that to make sense at the Olympic level, you'd have to do it at the collegiate, and youth level. Otherwise you'd select for height before people could get to the pro-level anyway. A high school meet where every hurdler could se their hurdle spacing would take forever! And World Athletics is trying to reduce meet time so it's more appealing to more people, so they won't change that rule at the pro level because of the additional time. And could you imagine if some poor official put the hurdles they were in charge of at the wrong spot? I do think lowering the men's height to 39" would be a great change though, because 42" is just ridiculous and limits not just the number of pure hurdlers, but decathletes as well.

Plenty of height bias in the high jump. The problem is, basically, how much distance you must raise your center of gravity. A taller person must raise their center of gravity less distance to get over the bar. Given equal jumping ability the taller person always wins. Height is also great in pole vault. Make DuPlantis 6” shorter and he becomes physically unable to make the bar because the distance from his hands to his hips is too small. Also, taller people are heavier and thus can use a stiffer pole, returning more energy to their jump than a lighter athlete would get.

@caseysmith544

2 ай бұрын

Pole Vault can have small guys with coordination who use speed and are basically sprint launching using a pole a size or two bigger then they normally would or have people who have great coordination who have slightly blocky or mass on a shorter body for events as well. In high jump you see a body from about 6 foot 2 inch/188 cm to about 6 foot 8 inch/203.25 cm maybe a bit taller usually much more then 7 feet/213.3 cm and are really skinny yet muscular looking really similar to some taller distance runners in 1/2 marathon or under events. Why such a range? Well, being much taller your body will struggle to get in position for a high jump.

@korganrocks3995

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, Stefan Holm was a fantastic high jumper who cleared 2.40 iirc, despite being only 1.81 or something, while most of his competitors were 1.90+. If the high jump was judged on how much higher than your own height you jumped, he'd probably have taken the gold every time! That said, I think even he would agree that using absolute measurements is the way to go, because it gets too convoluted and messy otherwise. It's never gonna be completely fair anyway, so why not let genetic freaks win gold medals and get some compensation for being too tall, short, wide etc for most infrastructure they come across... 😄

@AnyVideo999

2 ай бұрын

​@@korganrocks39951.81cm is still fairly tall. I suspect he would be outclassed by shorter jumpers in this updated metric. Much like the best shooters in the NBA are far and away the best shooters in the world since they would be selected out for other reasons.

@korganrocks3995

2 ай бұрын

@@AnyVideo999 It's above average height for the general population by a couple of inches, but it's 11 cm shorter than anyone else I saw on a list of men who had jumped 2.40 and above.

You didnt mention the 3000 steeplechase... Also i tennis a service called let should be fault

Motor Racing favours shorter lighter athletes are faster For example I’m 6’2” and 62kg (which is extremely underweight) My teammates 5’6” and 45kg Each few kgs are tenths of seconds and when your trying as hard as you can to beat smaller racers you’ll always have a disadvantage

Although I doubt sportive governing bodies would approve, having multiple classes, like the weight classes in martial arts and rowing or age classes in master sports, would be the best solution.

If I hurtled, my form would be the same as the person at 3:21. I assume someone invented the hurtles to alleviate the boredom of running in circles, and somehow it caught on.

Rowing is another sport with an arbitrary rule in place. There are two weight classes called light weight and open/heavyweight. In adult men’s the cutoff weight is 150 pounds, but in a sport dominated by the extremely tall this results in athletes cutting weight at all costs to be able to fit into the lightweight class. Fortunately athletes are starting to realize they can gain 10-15 pounds, gain some muscle, and still be competitive in the heavyweight class as heavyweight times and lightweight times are very similar. This has resulted in the lightweight class becoming almost extinct because the athletes decided to stop competing in it.

Track coach at HS always wanted me to do hurdles. Tried all year to get me join track in the spring. I think I now know why.

Is it plausible for an athlete to have a natural stride length fit two steps neatly between each hurdle?

@geirmyrvagnes8718

2 ай бұрын

Not for a human athlete. Wouldn't that make you about 3 meters tall?

In hockey, taller players get a special rule allowing them longer hockey sticks. If another player uses it, it’s a penalty, but if a taller player uses a shorter stick, it isn’t. So, it’s clear that there can be adjustments made in sports.

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

Wow, I didn't know that. That is a good example of adjustments in sports.

Wait a minute: You've changed the color from male to female hurdlers. Male hurdlers are the blue line. But the video processes the green line as female hurdlers. Are female hurdlers really on avarage taller than sprinters? That would change the characteristics from male to female hurdlers even more, as male hurdlers have their oprimal size between normal men and male sprinters. Could you please explain that?

3:50 The inches in the histogram are so awkward, and I stopped watching when he continued to force using inches when the data he was using was in cm.

At the intro, when the 100m appeared I thought he was gonna say, at some sports you wanna be black…

Isn’t hurdling all about inseam not height?

@Ancient1341

2 ай бұрын

Yes but as he said, there isn't much information on inseam lengths

Ideal world: Hurdles must be set to 1.25× the inside leg measurement of the athlete, measured before the race. That is, hurdle height is different in each lane. The distance run and distance between hurdles must be relative to 10 hurdles' distance based on leg length too. That means different start lines in each lane. Basically _scale the entire race by athlete size._ Downside: Track officials and coaches have to manually adjust and verify 80 hurdles before each race... avoiding this is partly why a fixed value exists. Stride length / inside leg length may also be too simplistic for "fair" measurements. Horrible outcome: I can already imagine the controversies where athletes' lanes are changed last minute for some reason and two athletes accidentally race with the wrong hurdles from the wrong start, or simply that one or more hurdles in a lane is set wrong and then a complaint snowballs out of control because some track official or another refuses to accept there was an error.

@DylpiqkleSTier

2 ай бұрын

Still not completely fair as shorter people can usually jump higher than tall people.

Let me tell you about them hurdles - who cares about hurdles? They tried to make me run hurdles in high school, I hated running hurdles.

I mean this isn’t an exact formula. You also have to be very flexible to be able to bend your body like that. I’m 6’5” and when I try to go over hurdles it does not feel natural with my stride at all and I have to jump quite a bit

@MathTheWorld

2 ай бұрын

Definitely true about the flexibility! Though that is something you can improve with strength training and stretching! Height is a little more challenging to change haha

@DylpiqkleSTier

2 ай бұрын

@@MathTheWorld yeah but a lot of people are just genetically more flexible

Did you color the graphs incorrectly for the female heights?

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

Yes, nice catch.

I enjoyed the concept of the video though I think there are a couple flaws with your analysis and interpretation. Whilst I don’t have exact figures, around 20% of the male US population is 6 foot and above with around 2% over 6 foot 3. In your sample, having 5 athletes above 6’3 out of the 46 above 6’ is what you would expect in the general population. Based on the observed data I don’t think there is any evidence to conclude that there is an upper bound to the optimal height range. Also, anecdotally, the reigning Olympic champion is 6’5.

@megalodon1726

Ай бұрын

True, the lack of top 110m hurdlers above 6'5" may be because there are so few men above that height in the population, combined with basketball being more lucrative for men 6'6" and taller. Back in the 1990s there was a German hurdler Florian Schwarthoff who was 6'7" and won an Olympic bronze medal in 1996, so it is possible to be elite at that height.

Is this Dr Eric Helm’s nerdier channel?

The data said the female sprinter was taller than the hurdler, I’m confused. And btw I don’t know why you showed the Indian flag for not being able to produce hurdlers, there’s plenty of Indians in the 6-0 to 6-3 range!

I have to admit I expected the one Olympic event to be basketball

I don't understand how it's more unfair than anything else.

@MathTheWorld

Ай бұрын

I think the word unfair in the thumbnail probably should be "arbitrary". One of the points of the video is just helping people realize that a certain group of world-class athletes was decided by a committee many years ago when they decided the height of, and distance between, hurdles. So many other sports, are not so arbitrary. Changing the weight of the shot put by 10%, is still going to favor a similar build, but change the hurdles by 10% and you have a very different set of people excelling.

@dr.yannis.karrer

Күн бұрын

@@MathTheWorld100m sprint is also arbitrary from that perspective. Why not 123m or why not 87m? It‘s clear that certain distances will benefit different athletes with different genetic factors. Or why is the basketball basket not lower? It‘s at least as arbitrary. Where do you draw the line between „too arbitrary/too exclusive“?

I take comfort that there is one sport where my bodily dimensions are ideally suited to it: chess.

making it to the olympics is already the result combining hard work with winning the genetic lottery, so I don't really see this as an issue

Michael Fassbender. 110m hurdler.

There are a ton of sports where the rules dictate who has the advantage. I'd dare say all of them. That's what makes it a game. If you stripped away all the rules that favour a particular biological trait you'd have nothing left. In fact, I challenge you to come up with a game that doesn't favour something beyond our control. If there is a challenge, there is bias, for we have differing mental and physical capacities.

@geirmyrvagnes8718

2 ай бұрын

But few sports arbitrarily choose a narrow range of body types like this. The rules could arbitrarily be slightly different, it would still be hurdles, but different (shorter or taller) people would be olympic champions. That is very different from the 100 m sprint, where the very act of accelerating and running fast by itself selects a wider range of body sizes, about 1.6-2.0 m height for men as a guestimate.

Kind of weird to call it unfair. All the athletes play under the same condition. The only thing unfair is genetics.

@korganrocks3995

2 ай бұрын

I guess it's unfair in an arbitrary way, unlike most sports where the ideal body type will get the best result. For example, if the 100 meter sprint was changed into the 100 step sprint, we wouldn't have had thrilling finals between Usain Bolt and Powell, Blake, Gatlin etc, it'd just be Bolt vs a bunch of other tall guys who weren't nearly as fast as those I just mentioned.

@juanitadudley4788

2 ай бұрын

I agree. I think the ideal body type is just so much more narrow. Sports will always favor one body type over another. Even positions in sports will favor one body type over another. Maybe they should make adjustments as to hurdle height and distance. But, some people are suggesting to optimize these factors based on the athlete. I disagree with that. It should still be uniform amongst all athletes.

@blindleader42

2 ай бұрын

Completely weird. Every other sport described in this video optimizes the athlete's genetically defined attributes to some standard. "Fair" is a human invention, and a very recent one, at that. Nature doesn't give a flying fig about human inventions.

@WowOafus

Ай бұрын

In hockey, taller players get a special rule allowing them longer hockey sticks. If another player uses it, it’s a penalty, but if a taller player uses a shorter stick, it isn’t. So, it’s clear that there can be adjustments made in sports.

@wesleytwiggs7687

Ай бұрын

@@WowOafus who said shit about hockey?

The rules for hurdle height could be normalized to a certain height bar on the runner's height from ground to hip or something. That's a lot of work to set up the race though, setting the height individually for each runner .

What about high jump?

@geirmyrvagnes8718

2 ай бұрын

I think being taller gives you a slight advantage.... But I have seen a relatively small gymnast easily breaking the world record by using illegal techniques.

Removing the hurdles would work

I think that the most unfair sport in the world is basketball. Someone with a height below 6 feet is nothing in this game.

Hurdles should be removed from the olympics

Wait until this guy hears about high jump…

The other obvious genetic bias that came to me was Right handed infielders in baseball. It’s totally because of the direction we run the bases. Assuming handed-ness is genetic…

@korganrocks3995

2 ай бұрын

As opposed to what, an arbitrary choice as babies? I assumed handed-ness being genetic was pretty set in stone, so I'm a bit confused here.

@jccalhoun4972

2 ай бұрын

A quick google search says you assumed wrong, and scientists don’t really know what causes hand dominance. They think there’s a genetic component, but it’s not like height. Left-handed people aren’t more likely to have left-handed children as far as we know. So… now we learned something!

@korganrocks3995

2 ай бұрын

@@jccalhoun4972Sorry, I thought you meant hardwired at birth, not hereditary. Yeah, my parents are right-handed and right-footed, while my brother is left-handed and right-footed, while I'm right-handed and left-footed, so it has always seemed really random to me.

You don't throw a shot put. Put is the action, shot is the object. So you PUT THE SHOT.

Every sport has arbitrary things that cause it to be interesting, I dont think it would make sense to say who can throw the shotput the furthest that weighs under 200lbs (which decathalon dies a decent job at) or who can run the fastest 100M at 260lb body weight (which American football and rugby already do a decent job at).