I’d love to see more cards like Stinging Study, that reward high mana value commanders.

@JSBozick

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! I miss the days where most commanders were 6+ mana. I feel like it’s hard to build around some otherwise very cool high-cmc commanders these days just because the format has gotten so fast. And boy, treasures do not help that in any way.

@almisami

2 жыл бұрын

I absolutely agree. High CMC commanders need more incentive

@edhdeckbuilding

2 жыл бұрын

agree. also like to see more cards like commander's plate that reward you for playing less colors.

When you realize that Matt's "87 legends every two weeks" isn't that much of an exageration. Also, that 'stache, Matt. Magnificio!

I think the Myrkul challenge shows a key thing with Myrkul. It is enchantment matters, but you don't cast any of them, so it nonbos with several enchantress staples.

Re: 2 mana rocks One of the issues with trying to swing the pendulum back is that the cards previously made are still in the format. You can speed up a format but without bans it is hard to slow down a fast format.

@T_Peazy

2 жыл бұрын

but if you make 3 mana rocks that have good abilities then people have to consider the pros and cons when choosing what rocks to include in their decks

@vivecanada1

2 жыл бұрын

@@T_Peazy How big of an upside do you need over arcane signet to make a 3 cost playable? Because it is cards like that that sped up the game.

@T_Peazy

2 жыл бұрын

@@vivecanada1 Decanter of Endless Water is from Baldur's Gate. It's literally arcane signet for 3 mana and it gives you no maximum hand size. So you might consider running it over mind stone if you need the fixing and no maximum hand size is important to you.

@vivecanada1

2 жыл бұрын

@@T_Peazy Do you run it over thought vessal? Because I wouldn't personally. The tempo loss is just too high and the extra turn to cast a 4 cost commander actually hurts a lot of decks.

@T_Peazy

2 жыл бұрын

@@vivecanada1 in a grixis deck with lots.of pips. I'd absolutely run it over though vessel. Granted I'm probably running both. I'd cut mind stone for it.

Agreed on the mono-color incentives. I love my mono-white deck and wish there were more ways to incentivize running less colors.

@bobby45825

2 жыл бұрын

To be fair, my mono green elves REALLY doesn't need help.

@lomalindasmogcheck1

2 жыл бұрын

I got a Benny Bracks token value deck, I've been exclusively playing it ever since it came out. White is so resilient. Win con is approach, divine intervention, token aggro with pumps & akromas memorial and will

@morrius0757

Жыл бұрын

@@bobby45825 Mono green is just good all around, my Goreclaw deck is brutal. Spending 4 or less mana on creatures that'll be hitting for 7 or more damage each will never not be powerful, especially when those creatures are also removing opponents artifact, enchantments and fighting their creatures. lol

@bobby45825

Жыл бұрын

@@morrius0757 A lot of mono green strategies are exposed to sweepers but I can recover almost instantly with elf ball.

Love the discussion here about the pros/cons of niche commanders versus solved-problem engine commanders. I first got into commander after picking up Ranar - I loved that he was, on the one hand, an obvious foretell "tribal" commander, but he wasn't *just* that - you can ignore it completely in favour of exile or spirit token synergies. It felt like a really resonant mix of potential possibilities and signpost ideas for deckbuilding at the same time. Can't wait to see more commanders that thread the needle like that!

Hearing that Ziatora challenge the stats absolutely amazed me. I have a Ziatora deck, and Molten Primordial is EASILY one of the best cards in my whole deck. It is very often the way I win games.

@somerando6215

2 жыл бұрын

You have a decklist? I am trying to build Ziatora as well but there are so many good cards to put in the deck that I have way too many options haha.

Matt that opening joke was stellar

I live in Vegas and went to CF and it was one of the most pleasant experiences I have ever had. Everyone was so nice and willing to discuss power levels and most people had decks of all power levels together for any experience. I had a blast!

@Thalarion

2 жыл бұрын

I was there too it was fantastic

I have 2 things to mention here. First, to tag onto the legend overload, I'm trying to finish off builds from the previous sets because there were a couple of legends I liked out of new capenna. When balder's gate dropped, I was reluctant to take on another from a commander I love out of that set. I still did, but you get the idea. Second, please, please give us more options for the less popular colors/ color combos (commander wise). My personal example: I was very happy when wotc announced that they were finally getting back to the other tricolor identities that they hadn't visited in awhile, especially since I was sitting on an oddball of a grixis deck that didn't really have a good commander. I facepalmed hard when I saw that most of the maestros legends had to do with instants and sorceress, just like the old Grixis ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there are others getting a similar treatment.

The point you bring up about "Self contained commanders" is something I've spoken with friends a lot about and I appreciate you bringing it up here. I feel like these commanders have added to the homogeneity of decks. The decks are less of a puzzle to build because the commander just does it all. I still run Savra, Queen of the Golgari who is the complete opposite of this, she has a payoff but needs the other pieces assembled in order to work. I think that's so much more interesting.

Within my own playgroup, but not with the edh table at my LGS, we have a softban on certain cards as a thought exercise of, "what if today edh was less influenced by commander specific cards?" So if a card's Oracle text refers to commander or command zone as part of it's functionality, banned specifically in the 99. So that auto includes typical staples like command tower, arcane signet, ikora commander free spells, and the like. This blanket rule plus sol ring/mana crypt/fast mana really slowed our game down and we had to really consider 3 cmc rocks in at least nongreen two colored decks for ramp 5-10. Often times those 3 cmc rocks when in synergistic decks do fantastic work.

The problem with Dockside Extortionist isn't THAT it's it the BEST, it's that there's nothing else even vaguely close.

@CameronSMoore

2 жыл бұрын

The other problem is that I don’t want there to be anything close! I don’t understand how it’s not at least four mana, it would still be OP.

@zackkelley2940

2 жыл бұрын

@@CameronSMoore I'd prefer it be banned myself but they're not likely to actually do that. And yes, Dockside is OP as heck. Even if everyone is just playing the usual mana rocks and such, it is almost impossible to cast this and NOT come out AHEAD on mana. This is of course before factoring in that this is a creature and that there are many MANY ways to use it many MANY times.

@bobby45825

2 жыл бұрын

Wizards is to blame for the card shining so hard. You can't print a billion 2 mana rocks and not have dockside just absolutely slam mid to late game.

Not to add more hate on Tegrid; however, another issue I've witnessed is the owner shuffling the cards of other decks into their own. Most of the time is done subconsciously and may lead to bad experiences when playing with strangers.

@Blacklodge_Willy

2 жыл бұрын

Same problem I've seen happen with certain chaos oriented cards.

@facelessgames94

Жыл бұрын

Thats something that needs to be drilled in to them. People don't like having their cards stolen, so it needs to be done respectfully. Shuffling, however, is just rude. Deliberate or not, you know you're playing tergrid, so you should know what's yours or not. Then stuff like this eventually leads to rule neg-zero, ie; see tergrid, find someone else.

@Squee_666_9

Жыл бұрын

That's a player problem, not a card problem. Sounds like it's time to break some kneecaps.

After 2 Commander focused sets I'm still waiting for an energy commander.

@lerbyn

2 жыл бұрын

Same

@AaKkisa

2 жыл бұрын

Could Atraxa work? I know she is the catch all for pretty much everything but it is probably the best option right now.

@Siegorius

2 жыл бұрын

@@AaKkisa Yes, and Yarok could be used too but they're not dedicated to the theme.

@schadenfreude4846

2 жыл бұрын

me too and jund -1/-1 counters commander

@leress

2 жыл бұрын

I'm waiting for a Kavu Commander, you would think WOTC would make one for one of the creature types they created.

I have 7 mana crypts and still believe that it should be banned in commander. A zero mana artifact with almost no downside and accelerates your plays two turns starting turn 1 is a pretty easy place to start the ban discussion

@justanotherhuman7106

2 жыл бұрын

I mean hey, if you’ve got too many I’d be more than happy to take one off your hands, I’ve got plenty of evolving wilds to trade

@NeveFae

2 жыл бұрын

Be the change you want to see bro

@1Heirborn

2 жыл бұрын

Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Dockside are the top 3 on my watch list.

@kennellfrederick4367

2 жыл бұрын

@@1Heirborn Sol Ring means EDH is no longer playable. Part of the allure of EDH is playing cards that are available in eternal formats. It's like banning brainstorm in Legacy. Sol Ring still has to be drawn and can be destroyed.

@soleo2783

Жыл бұрын

​@@kennellfrederick4367 "has to be drawn and can be destroyed" my man that's 99% of permanent spells, including the ones that are already banned in commander.

We actually had a discussion about unbanning Emrakul in a game last night. As the one player said, it's not the Mindslaver effect that make it good, it's the 'Protection from colored spells' and 'Annihilator 6' that makes it too good.

@vtuberxpert7124

2 жыл бұрын

I think the Mindslaver effect is from Emrakul, the Promised End you’re thinking of not the Aeons Torn but yea since it has protection from everything essentially and can’t be countered on top of everything it’s hard to justify it being in the format.

@54m0h7

2 жыл бұрын

@@vtuberxpert7124 Ah right. Was thinking that because the one guy stole my turn that to me in that game. haha

Rocks that net positive - unfun play pattern Excessive fetches and tutors kill the spirit of the format and take the variance out of the 100 card Singleton format - unfun play pattern

@leonsegade-garcia2936

2 жыл бұрын

so true. I think that's also why i'm against the idea of Gifts Ungiven being unbanned

@PhiladelphiaCoIlins

2 жыл бұрын

I don't run tutors or fetches outside of nature's lore/three visits

An old keyword I would love to see come back for a few sets (I think it would add so much to commander) is Provoke. Anyone here remember provoke?

The second half of this show was 🔥 and I hope Wizards takes note.

47:58 when you two said “we yelled at clouds” perfectly in sync, I was dying XD

I don't think that designing for commander is the main problem, just like something is always gonna be the most powerful stuff, one format is always gonna be the most popular. For me, wotc's problem is that whenever something catches on, they design the crap out of it. You like treasure? Everything makes treasures now! Same with goad, same with the amount of legends per set. How many UG legends where variations of Growth Spiral?

@soleo2783

Жыл бұрын

Uro, Aesi and Tatyova, did i miss any?

@nik700

Жыл бұрын

​@@soleo2783 Gretchen from AFR and Chulane as well. Even the first Zimone and then Zimone and Dina are iterations of that effect

@soleo2783

Жыл бұрын

@@nik700 chulane is not UG but i see your point

I’d like to rethink the question of finding more ways to play mono color to how do we play more mono color legends. When I play lin Sivvi it’s not cause I love mono white (I do enjoy it) it cause I love her. One of the best ways to make mono Color legends playable is to give them another color (ie prismatic piper). You would also open up the card pool and allow playing with cheaper cards. Oddly enough mono color can be expensive. We are at a point where the benefits of mono Color no longer exist and nor do the drawbacks of playing multi color. Let’s remember smothering tithe was to help out white. I’m pretty sure it did more for any deck that just included white in the deck.

I hope Joey brings some dad jokes to the Pre-Prerelease.

You need a sugar score. Also, RC needs to allow hybrid mana to work like hybrid mana was created to. It would open more design space, more options, more accessibility.

@JSBozick

2 жыл бұрын

I love the hybrid mana idea. I suppose it’s something that could just be discussed in rule 0 conversations, but making it official would remove the possibility of other players not approving of if.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

I still do not agree that is the way hybrid mana is supposed to act. Those effects have those 2 colors as options for a reason. They may be separate, but those 2 colors both desire that effect, and flavor via color is in the spirit of the format.

I'm of the mind to either ban Dockside or make it very accessible to everybody to deal with the bad rap it gets. No deck with access to red doesn't want a Dockside for how much banked mana of any color you get via Treasures and how easy it is to abuse for being a creature card. It's also galling that it counts enchantments as well and not just artifacts which I think was a big mistake.

@leonsegade-garcia2936

2 жыл бұрын

I definitely agree. I honestly think that the new reprint of dockside might lead to the banning of the card as it will show up in more games

I absolutely understand where you're coming from with Tergrid. However, I just finished designing a commander deck around her. Is there a way I can make playing against my deck fun for opponents and keep game play enjoyable?

I don't like signpost bans. I would rather have them make a list of cards that they don't recommend players to play with so that the message comes across, but players also still have the option to play with those otherwise banned cards.

Coalition Victory would be the most logical unban with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim being banned.

100% on Gifts Ungiven

In my experience building Tivit, he has to be a self contained engine because going even sort of all in on voting is a terrible deck strategy. Messenger Jays is not a good card. For any remotely optimized build, voting is, at best, a subtheme.

I do believe that when wotc releases a new mechanic, such as goad, they need to deluge the next couple sets with those cards to hit a threshold where they become usable. Then they hit the brakes. There's nothing worse then a mechanic like energy where it was released and never really had enough support to work.

@grahamkelly6736

2 жыл бұрын

Energy is an interesting one, because from what I've heard it actually had too much support in standard and cards had to be banned to keep energy decks in check.

Korvold and Chulane are two others that "solve themselves" by continuing beyond the first few parts of their card text. Korvold feels especially egregious since he counts all *permanents* rather than just creatures. It makes him one of the most obvious options (almost to the point that he's the default).

I think my big issue with "signpost" bans is that they often don't do anything to alleviate the problem. Banning Prophet of Kruphix without banning Seedborn Muse just meant that decks that used to run the better one downgraded slightly but if the issue was the untapping causing a bad play experience it is still fully in effect. Same deal with banning Hullbreacher but not Narset same thing the option to create the unwanted play pattern is still there. If something is a problem then ban it if it's not a problem then don't. "Signposting" just feels pointless to me when it doesn't solve the problem and is just there to "advise" people against doing something because the people who care about the bad feels wouldn't do it more than a handful of times and the people who would do it are going to continue to do it even with the "signpost" there to tell them not to. I also think lots of players just don't want to learn to(or have to) play differently and I think that's where I most strongly disagree with Matt on the reason Tergrid needs a ban whereas I think discard as a whole, Tinybones specifically but Tourach or Kroxa or anything else, really don't. Tergrid unlike most resource denial pieces empowers your board state as you do the resource denial. Other options don't, so if a player plays well they can end up punching through that "discard lock" it just requires a mix of different play style some deck construction choices and some luck. Much like playing against a counterspell heavy or land destruction deck requires that you play differently understand your matchup and sometimes get lucky. A lot of EDH players really just want to play the "mono green stompy mirrormatch" or "battlecruiser" magic where you each play out bigger threats and eventually someone wins.

I believe in playing more removal, not so much as an argument for why problematic cards have answers, but for less feel-bad all round. Someone who plays enough removal in their own opinion shouldn't feel as bad about not having an answer, they've done all they could, luck happens. If that person feels they never seem to have an answer in hand... they know what to do as well.

Lol 49:15 I play unnatural growth in my new jund deck. The 4 green pips are no problem.

I think Bennie Bracks could probably be in more Myrkul decks. I feel like a lot of those decks tend to make a good bit of tokens over the course of a game and he could provide some really good value.

This video make realize I need an episode on Parnesse, the Subtle Brush

Nice episode. I`m also not a complete fan of the acceleration in EDH. Nowadays i shy away from commanders that cost more than 4 mana. Because when my commander gets removed immediately. I feel so far behind that i`m not able to catch up.

@morrius0757

Жыл бұрын

Same, only time I play a Commander over 4 mana is if it's in colors that can get them out of the graveyard cheaply, so green or black. Can't go wrong with reanimate spells or a Regrowth effect.

Esper Sentinel in Myrkul is probably due to people running Starfield of Nyx so it becomes a creature again, I can totally see those two cards in that deck together, I bet their stats also reflect that

I wish I had friends and family to play with... All I have is strangers.

First time I see a position on Dockside that I agree. For sure it's super powerful but I doesn't stop ppl from playing the game and it's my favorite card and I will play it in all my decks

I’ve found that the only way I’m running 3cmc “rocks” is if it’s Herald’s Horn or one of the monuments. But even then, that’s only good for tribal creatures. A 3cmc rock needs to be a cost reducer AND benefit me another way to be in a slot over 2cmc mana rocks.

One thought I have when it comes to the ban list for commander is, why is that so important isn’t it so less effective in a “non competitive format” as edh?

I took armageddon out of two of my favorite decks so I can play em more often

That talk of Tergrid ban makes me sad. One of my favorite cards is Grave Pact, but I've had to phase it out of decks because people just scoop with annoyed grunts. It remains my favorite card, but since the playgroup takes the fun out of it, I can't play it as often.

@leonsegade-garcia2936

2 жыл бұрын

I get that it's a cool effect, but Is it really that fun for you to play? I assume you're playing it in a sacrifice deck so it basically just means other people can't have creatures.

As someone who gets to crack out his Tergrid deck once every 2-3 months i hope it doesn't see a ban, with no regular playgroup i have to seek a pod with strong enough decks to play Tergrid into and Tergrid is far from my strongest deck. I honestly think it would be healthier for the format if we reaffirmed that we enjoy playing magic and the game itself includes necessary mechanics like discard, edict, boardwipes, counterspells and even stax. I get people need to be in the mood to play against that style of deck and some people will always hate interaction, but the option shouldn't be sign-post banned.

@smegmalasagna

Жыл бұрын

I agree that those type of cards are healthy for the format but when it gets annoying to a lot of people is when your deck is build around them. Tergrid's entire strategy is trying to make your opponents discard cards and sacrifice permanents. It is comparable to Baral where you have a million counterspells. A few are fine, but a ton of them make the game feel stale. Hence why I dismantled my own Tergrid deck.

I dont want to play staples cause those are the best options esp in mono colors, i want to play them cause they are something that my deck does. So gimme something to be able to play monocolor without smashing all the staples cause we have too few cards to fit.

Emrakul is not banned in our playgroup. We are too casual of players and have yet to see it played in the group.

Tergrid is not the problem in it of it self, the kind of deck you build around her though. Discard/sac. This usually ends with either Tergrid completly takes over the game, noone has cards in hand and all permanents end up on Tergrids board or Tergrid gets removed but the players deck slows the game to a halt with discard/sac or/and complete lockdown with stacks.

I survived the Tergrid takes but going after Mustard was going too far.

I'd be interested in seeing a Commander that specifically punishes your opponent for playing multiple colors. Like the opposite of Sunburst effects.

@soleo2783

Жыл бұрын

I dont think hate cards are the way to go in order to buff mono color. Devotion style effects feel much better to everyone involved

@hugmonger

Жыл бұрын

@@soleo2783I mean we do already have those but multi color hate could be pretty cool. Like something that adds 1 to the mana cost for each color of Mana it costs or something

I know it's not a mechanic, but I feel that +1/+1 counters have definitely overstayed it welcome 10 years ago.

He was saying Emrakul will need instant speed reanimation because Emrakul auto shuffles your graveyard back into you library when it dies... 😉 Reanimating Eldrazis is not an easy task... 😆 🤣 😂

@smegmalasagna

Жыл бұрын

That is where Goryo's Vengeance comes in :p

From what I understand of the process, they just make 1000s of card ideas and pull from those to fit set themes and color curve. Based on what some designers have talked about, this is probably why we see some mechanics bleed across. Isshin vs wulfgar, seems like an obvious example.

Matt is glistening! Jokes aside, good episode!

So, I will be the one to ask: do any of you Guys think the format would be better of without Sol Ring? I have an opinion about this, but I would Love to hear from you 😁

@okgut2033

2 жыл бұрын

Like a lot of things it depents. But i think sol ring is fine on most situations. rule 0 can fix a lot. Fast mana is one of those things.

@Shintonias

2 жыл бұрын

@@okgut2033 But a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a great Disbalance at a table, that can´t realy handle it, wouldn't you agree? The card is so strong, that it warps the whole game around itself... If you play with high power that is fine, but why is Sol Ring in every Precon?

I feel bad cause I have a Kaalia deck and I worked hard on making it. And I feel that, once I show my commander, I get a target put on my head cause they know its a dumb deck.

Can we revisit this thought/question? lol

Emrakul is banned mostly for its protection form colored spells, I do think it should stay banned for that reason. How many people have colorless removal in their deck? I only have 1 deck that does.

I would unban Primeval Titan. There are so many good land ramp cards that unbanning it wouldn't make a big difference.

@abrahamdrinkin2534

2 жыл бұрын

It’s crazy to say but it feels like format has almost gotten faster than prime time. If you drop a PT and pass with little set up, that’s not a strong play to me. You’re better off spending that 6 mana on Consecrated Sphinx or even the new Copper Dragon

@christophknorr4635

2 жыл бұрын

@@abrahamdrinkin2534 I think so too, but none the less I would like to play him in my Landfall-Deck, especially since I have the Secret Lair Version from Kaldheim in my binder.

@Thalarion

2 жыл бұрын

Primetime is the best value engine ever printed. If it was basic lands it'd be fine, but any land is way too good

@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147

2 жыл бұрын

@@Thalarion who cares, I cast dockside for 2 make a dozen treasures and just win

Thinking about what people fear and what people don’t enjoy about new cards. New cards create new best in slot chances over other cards. Some cards are just generically good regardless. Samey kinds of play patterns grow tiring and everyone have different ways they enjoy the game. The printing of Dockside Extortionist is not the end of all things. It’s powerful but there will be always something new. If the printing for it becomes the benchmark to power, then design constrains itself too much and stops trying to innovate. There is still so much space to explore in magic design. As for banned cards in the format goes, CEDH makes the excuse that if it didn’t get banned then its free real estate. Imagining and balancing a wild and wide format like Commander requires hard top down design. However, the rules committee see to the idea that commander adhere to the spirit that started it in the first place. So the only bans they actually pursue are the ones that give the format a bad reputation. It allows for the freedom for anyone to play anyway they want. Infinites, tutors, extra turns and resource denial are testy topics. Particularly in more casual circles. These are embraced in the spirit of those who pursue CEDH as the core of their experience is victory in the most efficient manner. Poor communication forces makes it harder for players to gauge what their pods need. At the end of the day, the experience is the thing that must not be compromised. Now we come out to today with multiple releases and so many new possible decks. So many forms of variance that it is impossible to explore the design space. Concepts like focused builds manage to build a deck’s uniqueness but it makes expression far more difficult to build towards, test and share. Engines navigate you through your deck. Win conditions push you to victory. There are generically good items that help you in some aspects of the game and here are pieces that create overlap fulfilling multiple needs. At the end of the day, the creation of the focus towards commander and commander-like formats has benefited the players and those who pursue the format. However, we are left in a position where we do not grow. Particularly as a format constantly distracted by new things overlooking particular needs to players. New product gives needed reprints to pursue particular strategies but are left half-baked as a means to pursue missing and often expensive solutions.

Ok, I had to pause to comment on the TERGRID discussion. I played against it in the 99 just two days ago, and before anyone could even respond, it had already crippled the other 3 players. The game was not fun at all.

SO.......Dana owes us an extra challenge next week....got ya!

For me there are definitely to many legends in the sets these days. And since we have the powercreap next to it those legends tend to end up in the 99, so you playing super friends without planes walkers in your deck. I would enjoy more big creatures like titan of industry or the new mythic dragons. Just heavy big creatures that do stuff appropriate for there mana value but are no legends, just big stuff that lives on the plane we are on. Further I would like wizards to reprint popular cards, like skull clamp, sol ring, arcane signit, that are kind of staple with new art now and than, to have those sadly stapels with fitting artwork for your deck. I know we got secret lairs, but to pay 45 euros(non foil) for 5 cards at most when they are like 1 euro cards feels bad.

During the unban discussion - since mana acceleration has come a long way - why not unban Rofellos?

@mathimus55

2 жыл бұрын

I imagine being a Reserve List card and already $50ish plays a big role in that too. Rofellos even if it were a buck would be a card I'd hate to see unbanned, especially now that we have Yavimaya in the format too

@swain1153

Жыл бұрын

Well I would say just because we have some op mana acceleration doesn’t mean we need more op mana acceleration

Why cant they ban things as commander only?

What would I ban right now? Sol Ring. If the density of 2 mana rocks is too much, why does everyone think that stupid thing is ok?

The format self regulates, so let everyone have fun! Win whatever play styles they like and unban everything!

@gerrardcapashen1407

2 жыл бұрын

*let players play whatever play styles they like

21:40 Oh boy!!!!! Gifts Ungiven is probably one of maybe three cards on the banlist that I totally understand why it is there. If you know the intricacies of Gifts Ungiven there are several "No-Win" combinations of cards that result in immediate game-ending combos with almost zero room for interaction while the combo is being executed, some of them are even just triggered abilities looped with a sac engine like Ashnod's alter, which is a mana ability, so that the only chance you have for interaction is when everyone of their triggers is on the stack but because they're not spells the availability of countermagic that actually hits it is minimal. P.S. The other two cards that I think deserve their spot on the banlist without question are Limited Resources and Recurring Nightmare. Look them up and just imagine the salt they would induce.

re: Tivit, I recently built a deck with him at the helm. I initially intended on going the voting route, but the 17 voting cards that exist in Esper colors were not all feseable (one being expropriate) for the type of game I wanted to play so I started to slowly shy away from that strat and now Tivit is a blink deck because his etb and combat dmg does so much for the deck. It is an artifact and blink deck now with Spark Double, Sakashima, Panharmonicon, Astral Dragon, single drop blink instants like Ephemerate and Essence Flux, Aminatou, Yorion, Brago, Anointed Procession, Filigree Angel, Academy Manufactor etc. Not running Time Sieve because I don't enjoy infinities but the deck can create copious amounts of artifacts and then turn them into 4/4 flyers with Cyberdrive Awakener, into mana with Urza, drain opponents with Marionette Master or use them to directly hit people with Tezeeret Master of the Bridge. I wish New Capenna had more voting cards so that this could have been a different type of build. Oh well, Tivit's Bounce House is a good time still.

The Banned List's purpose is 99.98% to protect the LGS experience where you can't have the same rule zero conversation. At home players can decide what they want to run or play against whether it's on the Banned List or not. The remaining .02% is so that people who don't want to play against those cards at home have an argument. But seriously, the Banned List only has any real clout at LGS's, especially when paying an entry fee for FNM or a tournament.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

As time goes by, the community eventually learns what people do not want to play against. So many cards have seen less play because of this. I love bans myself. But I know there are some cards that are bigger fish to fry than most of the current banlist. Fast mana is more common and more game warping on a more frequent basis than an effect like Coalition Victory or Emrakul.

@DCII

2 жыл бұрын

@@ich3730 There are tournaments. I've played in them. They may not be sanctioned, but like I said the Banned List is there to protect the LGS experience. Make it uniform and fair for everyone, especially newer players.

@DCII

2 жыл бұрын

@@ich3730 I don't believe you understand the effect a degenerate, wild west, anything goes format (even if it only happens in a small percentage of LGS's) would have on growing the popularity of the game. Cards on the Banned List are there because they, ostensibly at least, make games unfun, and that discourages newer players and players who can't afford to keep up. If you remove the Banned List as a guideline for LGS's, and I realize that it is just a guideline, there will be a nonzero amount of stores (and personally I believe it'd be a larger percentage) that will simply not be bothered to make their own list. And that will discourage growth of the game. Aaannd, I hope we can all agree that we want the game to continue to grow so it continues to provide the fun and challenges that we all enjoy.

Hey guys! Love the episode as always. Legitimate question: do you guys see Tolarian Academy being unbanned what with the higher speed of the game coupled with better conversation skills achieved through building up rule 0 conversation? Like we are more mature now and we get to play with it kind of thing 😁

@zackkelley2940

2 жыл бұрын

At this point I can't see why not. Gaea's Cradle is legal, Serra's Sanctum is isn't there yet but yes getting better with the shrines and such, and Urza, Lord High Artificer is just Tolarian Academy with extra goodies.

@danewirostek1903

2 жыл бұрын

Tolarian Academy is significantly stronger than Gaia's cradle thooo. It would not add anything postive to casual games and would spike in price as a cedh staple

@zackkelley2940

2 жыл бұрын

@@danewirostek1903 How is it THAT much stronger than Gaea's Cradle? It isn't exactly hard for green to spew out creatures. Also it's less that anyone would want the thing, and more that Urza.... exists. The genie is already out of the proverbial bottle as it were.

@danewirostek1903

2 жыл бұрын

@@zackkelley2940 I tried to link a reddit post but i think it got deleted but basically 0 mana rocks with Tolarian Academy is game breaking

@zackkelley2940

2 жыл бұрын

@@danewirostek1903 I keep forgetting we still have a few of those that are still format legal. The only one I see with any regularity is Mana Crypt.

I think higher bans in the format probably fixes stuff, but also most games are casual not competitive.

@okgut2033

2 жыл бұрын

Most things are shadowbanned and others just dont see much, cause commander has one of the biggest cardpools at all.

One point on Coalition Victory: It is one of the only ones that win you the game as a state based effect. At the time of banning, every other "alt win" triggered at a specific time so if you had a disenchant in hand, you could respond in a meaningful way. With Victory, it was usually: "Does this resolve? If so, I win." Second Sun also has this issue but you have warning because of the second cast requirement. I can't think of any others.

The Izzet deck for Battle for Baldur’s Gate is a prime example of goad being taken too far. I have seen that deck repeatedly get hated out of play because having everything goaded all the time quickly becomes annoying as hell. The alternative Legend, who creates a constant goad effect that scales up as it gets boosted, is a pretty egregious design, and I say this as someone who really enjoys goad as a mechanic. I just think there is way too much of it now, just like treasure. Stapling a treasure token to every random grizzly bear, draw spell or temporary-steal effect is contributing to speeding up the format and allowing huge, game-ending plays to happen earlier in the game.

@clarioneversole9013

Жыл бұрын

I once briefly looked into making a Pramikon, The Sky Rampart blink deck using its directionality with goad effects to control who everyone else at the table was attacking while being unassailable, and adding double damage modifiers like Gisela, Blade of Goldnight to have everyone else kill each other very fast...but dropped the idea early in because I realized I'd absolutely hate to play opposite a deck that constantly forces my hand like that. At a certain point it just becomes a complicated game of solitaire with a captive audience.

iona was banned for the same reason as primevil titan. you play iona, the game then becomes about the iona

@swain1153

Жыл бұрын

That’s exactly how it should be with a 9 mana card tho

Yasss unban Emrakul! Our dark Lord approves - the Rakdos guild. Also, it just got cool new art and the other two titans are lonely without her.

Matt I mustache you a serious question!?

I'm here just for the dad's jokes...

I’d like to see two color, double sided commanders, with devotion. One color on each side, done like the pathway lands from Zendikar. Then you can pick which side to play based on the color pips of your permanents.

Energy commander when???

I would ban Mana crypt. I would unban Iona.

You guys hate mustard?!?!? Me and my (literally) 17 different mustards are aghast!

So I have to play devil's advocate on one of the topics. I don't mind getting 20 new legendaries in a set. If it creates 20 new deck ideas, then to me it makes the formate even more fun. I get to build or see 20 new decks. Sometimes I get tired of seeing the same decks over and over.

isshin is all creatures wulfgar is your creatures. Isshin can double effects the punish attacks that is different than aggro.

Ok but gifts ungiven tutors and deploys a 2 card combo on its own, in one card. Unbanning it before 8 mana sorceries seems obtuse. 4 mana win game, versus 8 mana win game if hoops are jumped.

@leonsegade-garcia2936

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I think people forget that gifts ungiven is already a card that has been figured out and there are many 4 card combinations that guarantee you a win no matter what they pick

I think esper sentinel is still too good and too efficient to not play in almost any deck that can run it. Myrkul included.

My advice for WotC : invent a mechanic or create legendary creatures in all colors that punish greedy plays. A mechanic that pings each player for each card they draw after their first card they draw on their turn. Or punish for each colored mana that wasn't produced by a land, or having spent more mana per turn than lands you control. What I mean is level the game downwards, we need static interaction to punish fast mana and excessive mana usage and card draw. Give some tools for those players who want to defeat expensive decks with jank. Otherwise, keep listening to the community.

@okgut2033

2 жыл бұрын

Your talking about stacks or shut downs? Cause thats a away. Also we have hatebears and softlocks. If you want it a little more fair: cards like cambal stacks your life instead of mana. And if you really want to stop someone counterspells are also mean things that could sometimes stop everything.

I don’t think signpost is the solution when you play with strangers every week. Just ban all the problematic cards and rule 0 when you absolutely want to play it!

I'd like to see Conquest getting more mainstream support from channels like this so it could become the competitive commander format and keep EDH casual.

Um, you DO realize that there are lakes in Arizona, right? And that they have beaches? Similarly, going from a useless "signpost" banlist to "why do we even have a banlist" is hardly a massive leap of logic.

Gifts isn't a tutor it's a wincon

Emrakul is not a problem upon unban. As most people would understand the self-regulatory nature of not wanting to play against that kind of stuff anyways. The biggest problems are the cards people WILL play, but probably shouldn't. I'm looking at cards that are sure to warp most games on a common basis (fast mana).

So speed Up it aint what It use to be feels more like Yugio with plentu of tutors

Upvote for vocalizing banning Tergrid like cards!

Gifts Ungiven is a hell of a lot stronger than you are giving it credit for. It's a 4 mana I win the game card instead of 8 mana.

Iona was legal for like 10 years and it wasn’t a problem. It’s an arguably bad 9 mana White card. Get that off the ban list

I don't think signpost bans work very well tbh. People would play more Tinybones if Tergrid was banned, not less. Because some people just like that playstyle and want to play those decks. Banning Prophet of Kruphix didn't make people play less Seedborn Muse. Prime Time and variants being banned didn't stop landfall decks from being one of the most popular archetypes in the game.

@Oopsall

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Signpost banning golos just meant that people played oppressive Najeela and kenrith decks instead.

Coalition Victory is 100% not a card I want unbanned. Cards with "win the game" effects are cool and all, but I want there to actually be some amount of buildup to the game ending. There's a fine line between not wanting the winner to be known from a mile away and not wanting the game to just end out of nowhere. Coalition Victory steps too far into the latter. It's not as bad as something like Thoracle, but I think cards that win the game which can only be prevented at instant speed are not good design in general. One thing some tables I've played do that I think should be the norm for multiplayer games is if a player wins via a "You win the game" effect, that player steps out and is the winner, but the other three players continue to fight for 2nd, 3rd, etc.

@VexylObby

2 жыл бұрын

Well if enough people say they don't like it, then it will see less play, like most disappearing effects in the format. I think commonly played, easy to use, game warping effects are the bigger fish to fry.