I never really watched Enterprise, but as a former army guy, a private would never go up to a colonel (an O-6, which the equivalent of a navy captain) and talk to him that way. Not only would the private get in trouble for doing that, but his sergeant in charge of him would get chewed out for letting it happen. Looks like that tradition is alive and well in Starfleet.

@james_baker

8 ай бұрын

as another former army guy, i can confirm you are 100% correct. It just didn't happen, or rather didn't happen a second time..

@WinterSoldier79

8 ай бұрын

It would have been fine in the Air Force as long as Daniels added a 'Sir' or 'Ma'am' to the end of some of his sentences. Officers give enlisted a little more leeway in the Air and Space Forces, but respect and courtesy were always expected.

@JeffreyTappan-bb8rr

8 ай бұрын

An entomologist went to college, which qualifies them as an officer.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

First off, I am a proud 39+ year enlisted member (now retired) of the U.S. military. To build upon this line/thread of comments, yes, an enlisted person should always follow the chain of command, and not approach a command level person directly. - As to use the Air Force comparison, approaching Archer would be like initiating and professional conversation with a base commander; or naval ship commander in the Navy. - Although along with the storyline, Archer is quite irritated because his ship almost just blew up, so he's quite intense at that moment. - And as for 'Starfleet' personnel with civilian degrees. Much like our reality, a college degree will get you into an officer candidate school, such as Starfleet in this case. But until someone graduates from OCS/Starfleet, they're not an ensign/officer. - REGARDLESS, Star Trek does a horrendous job respecting enlisted personnel, who is key in making things work in all military branches. Even in one of the Star Trek movies (ST III), they automate the ship and make it possible for it to be operated with only the main cast...no crew...no enlisted people! Making their main cast a little too full of themselves by merely pressing buttons.

@fencserx9423

7 ай бұрын

As a navy guy, I can confirm, this MIGHT happen on something like a submarine where you interact with the captain regularly. But outside of the seaman being VERY right and the Captain being VERY cool, the seaman, his LPO, his LCPO, his division officer and likely the COB would all individually or together talk about their feelings with him very loudly

The Original Series was created by a WW II and post-WW II generation of writers, directors and producers many of whom were actual veterans themselves. They had a knowledge for how a proper military operation and command pyramid worked. They were able to bring that sense of military authenticity to the Original Series that we really have not seen since. (That said I have no idea where Roddenberry was coming from with that idea about there being no enlisted personnel on the Enterprise. That's just nuts!) I think in the post-TNG era, we've mostly have writers whose knowledge of the military comes from watching Star Trek. I'd wager that the bulk of Star Trek's current audience believes that the lowest rank in Starfleet is "Ensign!" Unfortunately, The Original Series did not have what Voyage To The Bottom of the Sea had which was regular enlisted characters. The Enterprise needed a "Kowalski" and a "Sharkey" and maybe its audience... and subsequent writers and producers... would be more aware of the role of the enlisted grades.

@JohnMinehan-lx9ts

Ай бұрын

I think the idea was that since everyone had a lot of specialized training and education, everyone on a Starship was at least an Ensign. In the real military virtually no one in, say, Delta is less than an E-6 (the Delta slang for a SSG is a "Delta Private.").

Red Dwarf showed the real lower decks.

Comparisons of ST to real world military are always fascinating, thanks for the info!

So, in a sense we STILL haven't actually seen the lower decks of a starfleet ship. For that we'd need a show that focused on the enlisted crewmen and we wouldn't see any interaction with the officers.

@indetigersscifireview4360

8 ай бұрын

There is some interaction between officers and enlisted, especially on the bridge where the majority of watch standers are enlisted. There is formality to the interaction.

@mikespangler98

8 ай бұрын

The division officers give the day's orders to the CPOs, then the chiefs pass it down to the lower ranks. Interactions in Control or Manuevering where officers and enlisted were operating together were quite formalized.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

The most interaction we've seen with non-officers were on DS9 and Enterprise. But even those were so small and barely significant. We often would see O'Brien (DS9) conferring with other Bajoran technicians to get things done, even as early as in the pilot 'Emissary'. In 'Starship Down', DS9 has the most visibility of crewmen/engineers, as two of them have lines and contributing roles in the success of the mission; all the way to the end of the episode. And there could've so much more chances, but there were times when 'Enterprise' needed upgrades, like the installation of their phase cannons 'Silent Enemy', that more interaction with the enlisted would've been great.

0:33 I'm so glad you offered that stipulation, I was totally going to vote Jellico the nicest captain!

@frankm.2850

8 ай бұрын

Jellico? Really? Either we watched different shows or I'm missing the humor.

@CaptTerrific

8 ай бұрын

@@frankm.2850 Apologies, I thought the sarcasm was so obvious that I didn't need to call it out :D

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Sad to say, at my second military posting, I had a commander who was almost like Jellico; so I get the character. He was a former WSO 'Wizzo' (Weapon Systems Officer in the F-4 phantom aircraft). After he no longer flew, he seemed a little 'irritated at his new ground/non-fly posting. So his personality seemed a little like Jellico. With the character's backstory, who knows why Jellico was, like how he carried himself. Distant, non-personal interactions, etc...no love for the 'touchy-feely' Starfleet ways.

Picard. Only a really nice guy would react so calmly to being splashed with hot chocolate in engineering, and he was really nice to those kids in the turbo lift, even though he doesn’t like being around children.

I love how Archers attitude changed when he realized that Daniels knew a whole lot more than Archer did

In the end, you touched upon what I feel is the biggest flaw of “Lower Decks,” despite being an otherwise decent series. Lower Decks completely ignores the existence of enlisted crewmen. I pointed this out on my own channel, before Lower Decks even aired. All we had was a trailer, but it was already clear that they were ensigns and not enlisted. I said at the time, these characters should not be officers; they should be enlisted. As good of a job that Mike McMahan and company are doing, I have a sneaking suspicion that they don’t know the difference.

@JohnMinehan-lx9ts

Ай бұрын

Roddenbery's idea was that the training level would be such that everyone on a Starship would be at least an Ensign.

@JohnMinehan-lx9ts

Ай бұрын

It would be something like Delta Force where almost no one is less than a SSG/E-6.

@MoonjumperReviews

Ай бұрын

@@JohnMinehan-lx9ts - Maybe he discussed that in a memo at some point (I’m not familiar with that quote, although I’ve read just about every behind-the-scenes book ever written going back to the 70s), but that’s not what ended up on screen. There were tons of enlisted crewmen seen throughout the series who wore enlisted jumpers or specialized attire. They rarely spoke a line (occasionally they did), but the TOS Enterprise was full of enlisted crewmen. And they were typically addressed as “Crewmen” not “Ensign.” Actually, I’ll take it back: there was one enlisted crewperson who had lines all the time: the captain’s yeoman (notably Yeoman Janice Rand). Yeoman is an enlisted rank.

definitely Anson Mount and taking him out of the equation I would have said Kirk. Great video!

Love this topic. It's one I've often wondered about, as any Navy vet will tell you that NCOs are the heart of any vessel.

I always assumed that Rand was the equivalent of an Ensign with a field not unlike an AG officer in the US Army and a role not unlike an Aide or an Assistant Secretary of the General Staff.

I have noticed that in most Star Trek shows that there are no NCOs above Chief Petty Officer aboard a starship. Although, Senior Chief Petty Officer Miles O'Brien served aboard the USS Defiant but that ship was basically an extension of Deep Space Nine, a Starbase. Notice, that upon promotion to Senior Chief Petty Officer Miles O'Brien had to leave the Enterprise-D and transfer to DS9. It seems that NCOs above Chief Petty Officer are treated like Starfleet admirals and confined to Starbases or Headquarters. In fact, Janice Rand is confined that Headquarters after her promotion past Chief Petty Officer and only returns to starship duty once she becomes a Commissioned Officer. Warrant Officers like Kosinski in the TNG episode "Where No One has Gone Before" and possibly Tam Elbrun from the TNG episode "Tin Man" are only sent out to assist Starships on special missions and are not really part of the crew.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Well whatever 'bible' Roddenberry created when developing Star Trek got thrown out the window shortly after his passing, as the way TNG was written changed a lot, and DS9 wasn't following that format any longer. So whatever military structure was supposed to be in place, wasn't followed as Brannon Braga and Rick Berman has no military background the way that Roddenberry had. As enlisted rank as no bearing in Trek, most of the main characters don't even see promotion in almost every three years, which is standard fare for pressing one's career in the reality military service. TNG characters stayed the same rank for seven seasons...really?! Voyager's Paris and Torres got promoted, although Kim stayed an ensign for seven years also. In the 'real' military, those are almost grounds for dismissal, due to lack of career progression.

@ganykaliya7811

8 ай бұрын

@@EvilTheOne I'm not saying it's deliberate but that is the pattern that emerges. That's what we see on screen.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

It's really sad, because it seems that there wasn't a character development storyboard in the writer's room for these series. As they didn't see rank and career progression as an integral part of character development. Maybe fearing that advancing their rank would 'upset-the-apple-cart' of the series' status quo. To me, it was just insulting. At least TOS ran for only three seasons, so rank didn't matter until they made the jump into movies. Where pretty much all of them had been promoted and moved on in their character's careers.@@ganykaliya7811

In the TOS era I remember thinking it's ridiculous that every single person on a ship is an ensign or above. It does make sense that any enlisted assigned to a ship would be at least a petty officer, which is a non-commissioned officer. Highly trained in one or two specific areas: med tech, transporter tech, sensor tech, antimatter storage and transport tech. Any time there is an actual 'crewman', which would be a seaman or private, it would likely be a temporary training position.

Wagner, the "Enterprise" series was the one that felt most like a submarine imho 🙂 the uniforms even look like poopy suits 🙂 But, what is with star trek and covers? I don't expect them to wear a cover on the ship, as we don't don't do that in the real Navy, but when ashore in uniform they should have a cover! And salute! 🙂 (story about that though....one time I was doing training on how to handle mooring lines, it was conducted by a surface Chief. When it was over, I realized my cover had disappeared, and I asked the chief if he had seen it or if he had one I could wear. He said he hadn't seen what happened to my cover, however, since it was a submarine base and I had dolphins, he figured I could probably make it all the way back to the barracks without one and no one would say anything. In fact, he was right! I passed several officers and saluted and said "good afternoon, sir", etc., and none said anything. Passed a few Master Chiefs (not my COB, Master Chiefs from other boats), and they approached, looked at my chest, saw dolphins, and kept walking. lol. Needless to say I had a few spare covers in my baracks room and therefore had one to wear the next day. I sort of expected to hear from my sonar senior chief, or perhaps the COB, about it, but never did. lol)

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

When was this? I served in the 90s and I had lost my gloves on an underway. When the boat pulled back into Groton in January, I walked back to the barracks in my green utility coat with my hands in my pockets to keep them warm. As I approached the barracks, a chief in a pick-up truck slammed on his breaks when he saw me, rolled down his window and chewed me out for having my hands in my pockets. I lied and told him our corpsman gave me a chit, betting he'd be too fat, lazy and in a hurry to get out and check. I was right. He was real porker...

@neutrino78x

8 ай бұрын

@@DarinRWagner "As I approached the barracks, a chief in a pick-up truck slammed on his breaks when he saw me, rolled down his window and chewed me out for having my hands in my pockets. " lmao that's a classic.... "are your fucking hands cold?" lmao. Yeah I would say the incident I mentioned was in 1999 or 2000. I was quite surprised that nobody said anything and I didn't hear from my senior chief or the COB or anything. Admittedly it's a fairly short walk from where the white bus drops you off at upper base to the barracks, but I did pass by a few people. I served 1999 to 2003 on the USS Florida SSBN-728 (out of Bangor) and USS Asheville SSN-758. I was only on the Asheville for like nine months and she was in drydock the whole time. I did get Qualified on Asheville though. 🙂

@indetigersscifireview4360

8 ай бұрын

I was in home port, Newport R.I. where the Naval Academy preparatory school is located. Having just returned from the Med I didn't even think about it as I walked through a group of midshipmen without saying "by your leave". A senior chief saw me and called me to task. There is a certain informality on tin cans that develop while underway.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Referring back to Star Trek, the only time I've seen them wear covers was in 'Into Darkness', the end scene at the 'rechristening' of the Enterprise. And as the 'Kelvin' timeline movies are the most void of military bearing, it was neat to see them under cover for a change.

Starfleet seems more like the Air Force rather than Navy. The separation between enlisted and officer ranks is not as stark in the Air Force due to it being a smaller, and more technical service. I knew 1st and 2nd LT's when I was active duty that would get their asses handed to them by their superiors for questioning SMsgt's and Chiefs in the same unit. A lot of enlisted guys in the Air Force have advanced degrees, they just don't ever bother getting a commission, so their jobs/duties remain more specialized. Starfleet seems the same way.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

39+ years of military service has me agreeing with you on our assessment. Also, many 2nd and 1st. LT's serve 'with Chiefs when they first come into service out of OCS (Officer Candidate School). And even though they outrank them, they are urged to learn from the chiefs, because of their many decades of experience. Only idiot junior officers would be arrogant enough to think they no better than a seasoned CMSgt. (chief master sergeant).

Martok went from being s civilian-commision on a Klingon ship, to General of the (9th?) Fleet, all the way to Chancellor Martok, Leader of Destiny!! '2309, there is no finer vintage!'

@real_fjcalabrese

8 ай бұрын

Kor effectively blackballed him from the military when he applied for the academy.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

And it took DS9 to properly respect alien races like the Klingons, and give them the respect they deserved. - In relation to the video and your comment, as Kor like Archer, didn't give enough respect and time to listen to Daniels (Martok), then the temporal cold war would've evolved a lot differently.

In the National Guard fraternizing between enlisted and commission happens more often.

@JohnMinehan-lx9ts

Ай бұрын

Some PVT or SPC might have a former coach or teacher or a boss as a CSM or BN Commander . . . .

Great video Darrin. When I thought about it I gave Star Trek a pass regarding mostly officers because the officers have more responsibility.

As a former Signal guy and the TMDE coordinator in my unit while in the Army. I gained an even bigger respect for Enterprise after seeing their version on the NSN plates on everything in the background Also most officers in the branches got their commissions doing Rotc in college or OCS/OTS after college. And plenty such as myself enlist with a degree.

@DarinRWagner

5 ай бұрын

In Starfleet, throughout most of Star Trek, there apparently is no OCS-type path to a commission. All officers go to the academy. The first time anything else was suggested was as a track to a commission was in ST:D and SNW (both Secret Hideout productions).

My dad and uncle were both warrent officers in the United States army so they both got to break the barrier a little bit. But there is a separation of enlisted and commissioned officers. My father said it is not always a bad thing but you should be familiar with some of the people that you are in charge of but he said you have to be careful about being buddy buddy with people

You do realize that Lower Decks is a comedy? And a darn good one.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Trust me, as much crazy humorous times I've seen as being a 39+ year military enlisted member, Lower Ranks should mine from those experiences and focus a little more on enlisted personnel's stories.

@markgraham2312

8 ай бұрын

@EvilTheOne That would be a great idea for a stargate series.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Yes that's so true as Stargate had some episodes that were focused on lower ranking personnel, engineers and scientist, other than the main cast. As Stargate was trying to reflect the U.S. Air Force, they always had security forces and operation personnel in the gate control room area and facility. And anytime there was a major op off world, there was support personnel going through the gate with them also. @@markgraham2312

@markgraham2312

8 ай бұрын

@@EvilTheOne I've got every reason in the world not to trust, President Marcos. Isn't it wonderful that you should dictate what a series, that has nothing to do, should be like. Seriously?

One aspect show in the Role Playing Game was that enlisted went with one year of teaining as opposed to 4. They focused on 1 aspect or job. Such as transporter systems or entemology. Often the officers would have 3 to 4 times versitility but these specialists could hold their own "stat" wise as any generic officer. It also allowed people to serve in Starfleet without dedicating a lot of time to Starfleet. I do think there are many 1 off characters that would have served better as enlisted than Ensign so 'n so. That whole episode of Voyager where Janeway drags Lower Deckers on an away mission comes to mind.

The reason for wanting to have continued discussions with you is the challenge your bring to my view point and opinions. They are quite enjoyable for me at least. If not for you, please let me know.

It's easy to fall into making 1:1 comparisons between Starfleet and an earthbound naval military service, but it's important to remember that Starfleet has been established in large part as a non-military organization. I tend to think of Starfleet as more akin to a non-military uniformed service like to the United States NOAA, which commissions officers, but has no enlisted ranks and is not otherwise part of the Department of Defense. NASA itself establishes a precedent of space travel being the purview of individuals with an extensive pre-existing degree of post-graduate scientific and technical training, including (but not limited to) a military background. With these comparisons in mind, it makes sense to see so few enlisted personnel within Starfleet (or at least not assigned to starships), even factoring in the standards of 22nd-24th century technological advancements by which qualifications for working in space would be assessed.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

Starfleet IS a military, regardless of what characters like Picard say about it. We can see that it is time-after-time and when Picard declares that it isn't, he's being pretentious and merely projecting how he feels the world should be. He's figuratively rejecting reality and replacing it with his own and since he is the commanding officer of his ship, there's usually no one there to counter his opinion. People seem to lack this understanding. Starfleet does have humanitarian and exploration programs as well... just like the US Navy does.

@Pantechnicon

8 ай бұрын

@@DarinRWagner Calling Starfleet a military organization remains a debatable proposition. However, I will concede that there have been times when Starfleet either had a more militaristic bearing, or necessarily performed more military functions in comparison to other Federation epochs ((e.g. - the TOS cinematic era vs the pre-Xindi ENT one). It's a scientific/exploratory organization that can perform military missions when it needs to. Nothing in the mission statement: of "exploring strange new worlds", etc. establishes a charter that is primarily defensive or expansionistic in nature.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

@@Pantechnicon It's really not debatable. Who is the Federation's military if it is not Starfleet?

@Pantechnicon

8 ай бұрын

@@DarinRWagner Why does it need one when Starfleet can fulfill that purpose - secondarily but sufficiently - whenever it is necessary to do so? Try to think about this in terms of a societal model that has moved past the military-industrial complex conditioning we've all lived under for the last 80 years in the wake of the Cold War, 9/11, etc, which was kind of the whole thing Roddenberry was imperfectly aiming for in the first place.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

@@Pantechnicon Okay so if Starfleet "fulfills the purpose of a military" then how is Starfleet not the military? That was a rhetorical question. This discussion is inane. Thanks for playing.

There have been a lot of High Ideas, one might even say "Progressive" ideas, in the various Star Trek shows such as 1) There is no money, 2) Humans do not consume animals for food, 3) Star Fleet is not a military organization, 4) One must actually have the rank of Captain to command any vessel, even a small one, and 5) There are no enlisted ranks. And then it's possible to find in-episode exceptions to every one of these ideas. The reality is the writers and producers aren't consistent with whatever (if any) guidelines they are given on such things probably for a variety of reasons: The Progressive idea isn't consistent with the story they want to tell, they don't understand military structure, they simply aren't aware of "the rules," the continuity person is doing a lousy job, and et cetera, et cetera. One of the pleasures committed Star Trek fans have when it comes to Star Trek is the continuity, trying to find breaks in it, and then trying to explain those breaks away. But sometimes one just has to shrug their shoulders, especially lately.

Enlisted personnel can become warrant officers, and there are such things as enlisted who do become regular officers as well. The slang term for the latter is mustang.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

Yes, thank you. I'm very much aware of this, as I served under CNO Admiral Boorda, who started his Naval career as an E-1.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

In all of my 39+ years, I've seen a good amount of enlisted personnel move upwards to be officers. And usually, they are the ones that are the most empathetic to understanding what it takes to get our aircraft fully mission capable. A wrench doesn't turn itself...

I probably would have chosen Picard as the "nicest" captain.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

"Nice" is a pretty subjective term. I meant "nice" as in "nice guy." Bakula's character was a nice guy. Picard was a stodgy, rigid character.

@joe9739

8 ай бұрын

They're all fair, kind people, until you cross the line. Then each one is the last one you want to cross.

@someguy999

8 ай бұрын

Picard was too nice to their enemies. He spared the Borg in "I, Borg", which could have cost billions of lives. He also disclosed the federation cloaking device to the Romulans. I never bought the treaty excuse, as the Romulans broke the treaty in a number of episodes.

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Sisko is my favorite. He played baseball with his crew, eat hot dogs and had a baseball on his desk. He had a chief as his main engineer on the Defiant, and as his chief of operations. All the other captains had officers in these positions, and never played team sports with them. His character actually spends more time talking and respectfully being upbeat and nice to all civilians, families and all alien races. He was a true 'emissary'.

The Alfa-class Soviet submarines had crews of all officers, due to the complexity of the vessel's systems, from what I've read. I can see some Starfleet bases or vessels having the same requirements.

@barbarossarotbart

8 ай бұрын

that's because the Soviet navy did not have (and the Russian navy still does not have) somethinge equivalent to the non-commissioned officers, thus most of the task normally done by petty officers are done by junior officers.

@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain

19 күн бұрын

@@barbarossarotbart Incorrect. The Soviet’s did and the Russian’s do have enlisted personnel (which includes NCO’s)

@barbarossarotbart

19 күн бұрын

@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain You misunderstood me. I've never wrote that enlisted do not exist in the Soviet military. In militaries based on the Soviet/Russian system the jobs of those who are NCOs in western militaries are done by junior officers. Those in the same rank as NCOs in western militaries are just very experienced enlisted. That's the reason Ukraine created an NCO school when thye restructured their military after western patterns, because such schools were not needed in the Russian system.

As a huge fan of lower decks this is the first criticism of the show I have taken seriously.

What was O'Brians rank in 'Encounter at Farpoint'?

@summonersumnerus4364

8 ай бұрын

It was "we have no idea what we're doing, it's the first episode" rank. :)

Starfleet looks a lot like National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Officer Corps (NOAA Corps).

In addition to my previous comment, I have thoughts regarding some of the discrepancies seen with characters like Rand and O’Brien. In both cases, we’ve seen them wearing uniform pips which seem to contradict their enlisted status. With Grace Lee Whitney, we have the question of whether or not the “Woman in Cafeteria” is indeed Rand or some unknown character having a rather familiar, emotional reaction to seeing the damage to Enterprise-as if these are people she personally knows and feels the need to see them safety dock. If she’s not Rand, she’s sure playing her like Rand. Then in the very next movie, she’s credited as “Commander Rand,” despite her uniform suggesting otherwise. Her hair color is immaterial. Women change their hair color all the time. Likewise, throughout TNG, we see O’Brien wearing officers’ pips, only for it to later be established on DS9 that he “works for a living.” Just the fact that Picard has the power to make Wesley an “acting ensign,” and there’s some other examples, I think there’s sufficient evidence that Starfleet (which has its own rules apart from modern militaries) allows a commanding officer, in certain circumstances, to appoint an enlisted crewman under his specific command (and in some cases, someone not even in Starfleet, i.e. Wesley, i.e. T’Pol) to a temporary field promotion, with all the privileges and responsibilities thereof, which then ends once that person leaves that position or is no longer under that particular commander. Picard is impressed by O’Brien’s value, so while on the Enterprise, he is an acting officer-which ends the day he leaves that post and joins the crew of DS9. Same thing for Rand while serving at Starfleet Headquarters. Same thing for Wesley while on the Enterprise-D. Same thing for T’Pol while serving as an acting Commander on the NX-01. And similar situation for when both Riker and Data received temporary field promotions, which reverted back after the task was completed. They weren’t actually demoted. It always a temporary assignment, until formalized otherwise.

@exAirMover

3 ай бұрын

Rand may have Commissioned up from the ranks by the time of Star Trek 3 (Woman in Caffeterior) and its a case of bad title writing from then on? Trouble is with ST you never know where such inconsistencies seen on screen come from. Are they intentional or not?

I love that you did not include any Discovery Captains, Bravo lol

@DarinRWagner

20 күн бұрын

Well, Anson Mount's Pike commanded Discovery in the second season...

@zackb5636

20 күн бұрын

@@DarinRWagner Ah well true, I guess I blocked that from memory

@DarinRWagner

20 күн бұрын

@@zackb5636 I understand.

Cleaning the holodeck. LoL

This was an excellent video. I would add in general that Star Trek writers have done little work to understand the military rank system at all. For instance, security guards are often Ensigns, transporter operators, etc. Since TNG, officers nearly exclusively went on away missions to engage in combat type activities. Chief O'Brien crawling through spaces with tools fixing things (I was Army, but even I know a chief is a god on a boat), officers "flying the ship" and nearly 100% occupy the bridge. Ensigns being called "senior staff". Harry Kim commanding the ship on "night duty". There is no night in space, so any issues/threat at 2pm earth time should be no different at 3am earth time. The Enterprise being called the "flagship", based on THEIR usage of the term (which they violate) this presumably means the best/most capable ship in the fleet, but there were many Galaxy class starships. A Flagship, as far as I know, is the one the admiral is on. Beverly Crusher and Deanna Troi (once she became a full commander) as doctors get to command the ship JUST based on their rank? And don't get me started on a Maquis terrorist being made first officer on Voyager and forcing SF personnel to report to him, B'Elana and others (remember how Eddington was treated). I get we can't hold folks in the brig for 70 years and we lost personnel in the Caretaker, but that does NOT mean, you get to "command"

@EvilTheOne

8 ай бұрын

Trust me, all good points!

Even The Lower Deck omit Enlisted personal. And the whole show about how shitty it is to junior in Star Fleet.

Interesting video as I see this topic pop up on other videos. The main thing with Janice Rand seems to be they wanted to keep using GLW but had to wave a magic wand to make it make sense. There are also some oddities with Enterprise D having a large civilian population which included barbers who cut the Captain's hair. SNW has civilians on board for the Port Galley. It seems Titan-A had no civilians as the cook wore a Starfleet uniform, but it looked like he had a single darkened pip which according to some sources is Warrant Officer. Maybe someone in charge of managing their kitchen is worthy of Warrant Officer status?

Enjoyed this vid, got a subscriber out of me.

I would have thought that on a ship as large as the Enterprise D, there would have been a Warrant Officer as Senior most Enlisted Rank responsible for all other Enlisted Ranks on the Ship, in matters of general discipline (department matters aside) and welfare.

@DarinRWagner

3 ай бұрын

Warrant Officers aren't enlisted... they're commissioned officers.

@exAirMover

3 ай бұрын

They are not Commissioned in the British armed forces. I think we're looking at this from different Backgrounds buddy. 🇬🇧

@DarinRWagner

3 ай бұрын

@@exAirMover I think so too... but since Star Trek is based mostly on the US Navy and not the British armed forces...

Weren't MACOs based on the Marines?

@paulanerruhrpott6188

8 ай бұрын

More like the Seals

Benjamin Sisko. I will admit my bias, but I stand by my choice.

As a former private i always roled my eyes on Star Treks focus on officers. At least show a little bit more of the real backbone of any military, which are the seargents! Otherwise you get a very annoying posh vibe of Starfleet. To quote seargent Steiner from my favourite Sam Pekinpah movie Cross of Iron: I hate all officers. The focus on Star Treks officers would have been ok if you get more of a NASA Feeling from Star Trek with the characters resemling more real astronauts like in Apollo 13. Butyou never get that vibe from Trek, Starfleet is more like the Navy in space and not the NASA from the future. So if Starfleet is more navy than NASA they should have focused more on the privates and seargents. And btw , i dont consider Lower Decks to show the real lower decks because they are all low ranking officers already.

So.......1 year in prison or join Starfleet, learn a trade.

yeah star trek is inconsistent with enlisted personnel. Like that enlisted man in "Dumbhead", how are we supposed to know his rank by looking at his uniform btw? It looks like an officer's uniform just no pips. I guess he's an E-1 seaman? But he has a rating, so he shouldn't be an E-1 anymore. Weird. I think Roddenberry had a point....if you're as wealthy of a society as the Federation apparently is, probably most people can go to college for free, so you probably wouldn't have enlisted people. Also, while it's never shown on screen, I remember Riker saying the ship cleans herself. Since they never show cleaning robots I guess everything is cleaned by energy fields? I dunno. But that would seem to be contradicted by the screenshots you showed from Lower Decks (which I have never watched). hmm.

@DarinRWagner

8 ай бұрын

The answer is: it's a TV show. There's really no in-universe reason.

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

Sorry but she does not clean herself. Sigh this had been shown on screen stations being cleaned. Even the robot cleaners are not automated. IF you let them run to long they form a AI.

@neutrino78x

8 ай бұрын

@@warp103 "Sorry but she does not clean herself. " Riker said she does. Remember when they took on those people who looked like they were from the middle ages? They said something about they would clean up the cargo bay, and Riker replied "that's not necessarily, this ship cleans itself". 🙂 " Sigh this had been shown on screen stations being cleaned." It was? Where was this shown, other than Lower Decks?

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

@@neutrino78x lol 10 forward, Barkley:, Voy all the times janeway,tom, torres and kim cleaned something on the ship. Really just because some writer that been on the show a hot min put in a line does not cover all the time you can see them cleaning on screen. I left of DS9 because it not a starship

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

@neutrino78x opps I forgot even riker cleaned his instrument and clean a console in the movies

My god man Stop doing St stuff. You get major things wrong. Rand was a commander on the Excel. Even in VOY the flash back with tuvok. She was second in command. Then in the movie as noted that was her and was a commander at that point too. Again this is basic Alpha Canon stuff, that would take less then 2 min to look up. What worst rand was not the only NCO shown when Gene was the showrunner. And in even show/movie since there have been NCOs on screen.

@barbarossarotbart

8 ай бұрын

Wrong, Rand belongs to those very few who started out as crewmen and became officers later in their careers. Somewhere between 2282 (TVH) and 2293 (TUC) Rand got her commission and rose through the ranks becomming commander as late as 2293. I believe that it is very unrealistic that a master chief petty officer (her rank in TVH) gets a commission.

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

@@barbarossarotbart really lol Nova Sq were cadets that were made officers. 2 From the Excel sulu commanded became officers. Damn read the Book before commending. Even O'Brien was offer a commission but turn it down. Just like in the Military if you are good you can get Field promoted . So it is very realistic because it has happen in RL. You just have to stand out or want it bad enough. I mean Wesley Was less then what rand was and did not go to that academy made a Ensign. Then when later, technically he did not have to and was really stupid story line. Just like another jack crusher went though a rapid rise to a rank. So on screen this happened alot after TOS.

@barbarossarotbart

8 ай бұрын

@@warp103 If you really believe that cadet is an enlisted rank, then you are wrong. Cadets are the students of Starfleet Academy and will always be commissioned as ensigns (or sometimes even lieutenant j.g.) after successfully completing their fourth year at the academy. As far as I remember there is no single TNG or DS9 episode in which O'brien was offered a commission. Well, he is a senior chief in DS9, he might be a NCO, but this rank has more "prestige" than a simple ensign. I was not talking about field promotions. Suhc things happen, but field promotions are not similiar to getting a commission. There might be cases in which a NCO got afield promotion to an officer's rank, but I was not talking about this. I was talking a high ranking NCO with at least fifteen years of service getting a commission. That's not getting a field promotion. BTW which book are you talking about?

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

@@barbarossarotbart Again are you daff, Cadets were made capts even before finishing the academy. He as I said Wesley was commissioned and did not go to the academy. IF you read ST books you would have know that O'Brien turn down a commission. Again 2 NCO for the excel got commissioned too. Now you change the game, because at that point if you are not counting Field comms. Then even rand does not count. No way a writer if going to go in to that much detail on how a NCO becomes a Commission officer. Field prom.. is how every NCO that I know became a Officer In ST. Just like cadet kirk{was not finish and was busted out} in the JJ verse becomes First officer/capt. and noVA sq became a full crew of the defiant class ship. So since you Qualified your response{to Field comm} then yea it unrealistic.

@warp103

8 ай бұрын

@@barbarossarotbart Book of Emissary O'Brien of ensign junior grade.

Gene Rodenbury was apparently an ex US Air Force Officer. Its a typical attitude of some officers in some Services that Enlisted Personnel are not needed - thats a short sighted view by them.

wow. 'lower decks' is dumb af? shocking.

Nice guy not a good or responsible captain on the other hand.

@DarinRWagner

5 ай бұрын

Not good or responsible based on what?

This also reminds me of how the officers and enlisted interact in David Weber's Honorverse. A Captain or higher officer pretty much hss only regular interaction with thrir Steward, who is usually a senior enlisted personel. The only other regular interaction would be for disciplinary purposes at the Captain's Mast. All other interactions follow the chain of command. I think the only exception are the various Chief Petty Officers in various departments, but they usually have at least 25+ years experience doing their jobs and are considered experts. If they aporoach the Commsnding Officer, its usually for a damned good reason.