The Lorca comparison is interesting because I had the same vibe in the previous episode when Burnham said "I haven't disliked someone this much in 930 years." There's only one person she could have been referring to.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

I assumed she was talking about Spock-their back-and-forth seemed very sibling-like.

One thing that bothers me is this: Why does a scientist who went to great lengths to hide his discovery, leave a bunch of cryptic clues all around the universe for people to find it? Edit: So they did explain this in a later episode. They wanted to hide from most people, but made sure it could be found by someone with the right mindset.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

They actually do lampshade this in the episode. It's: "Because 24th century Romulan." Them Romulans loved their scheming and secrecy and plots-within-plots.

One of the things I love about Disco that very few other Trek shows seem to have is character progress. The most unbelievable thing about the TOS and TNG crews is that from start to end, we find the characters in the same roles essentially, even when "life changes" have changed things off-screen (Spock is a Captain of his own ship, but happily goes back to Kirk's first officer - Worf is off doing his own thing, but then suddenly just back as security officer on the Enterprise-D/E). Event before the final season, Tilly was moving on to become an instructor - not leaving the show, but growing in her career like a real person does. It looks like we have more of that for this season with Saru not being on the ship, but still in the show, etc. I like that since it's a realistic depiction of how life works ... people grow and change and move on with their lives and they don't stay in the same spots forever. Disco seems to do that organically while other series tend to ignore it completely.

@stardusty

2 ай бұрын

I don't think Disco does it "organically". I appreciate that they try but it always comes across as hamfisted and awkward to me. This episode was a perfect example of how the show separates itself into two distinct types of scenes. The purely action scenes full of quips and flashing lights, and the fake feeling "character development" scenes. They are never organically woven together. Characters are just sort of moved around arbitrarily, but who they are fundamentally never changes. The only characters with true growth or multifaceted personalities are killed off or sent away permanently. It is a very strange thing and it's unique to Discovery.

@MotherShipMedia

2 ай бұрын

@@universaljoint Which is part of the problem with the show. For eg, in many cases, we see crew going through absurdly traumatic experiences in TNG. VOY, etc with literally NO follow up on how those impacted the people involved. I mean, Janeway literally straight-up murders Tuvix and the next episode it's never mentioned again. That shit is going to leave a lasting mark that will be a part of her character going forward. The modern shows do a MUCH better job of showing the impact of trauma on the PEOPLE who take these "competent actions to deal with threats" that are actually pretty horrific and should have lasting emotional consequences for "real people" ...

@FeannaFey

2 ай бұрын

@@MotherShipMedia While I agree that it IS nice to see characters develop and that if we followed the storyline of previous Star Trek shows there could have been a lot of that, I have also recently come to appreciate that you can treat a set of characters kind of like a pantheon or archetypes or something like that, more like sagas and Arthuriana etc. (or Comics as far as I know and also a bit like fanfiction, where fanfiction has A LOT of character development in individual stories, but all stories as a whole rely on established characters that you pick up and mold how you want/need them) where you basically create characters and then throw them into different situations and stories. You can frame it as a spaceship travelling the galaxy and theoretically have a timeline, but it allows you to tell wildly different stories using the same characters and can mean lots of creative freedom. What way of storytelling you personally prefer is a preference. And I think preferences can also be influenced by novelty. I was certainly excited for the first shows (and even movies!, cinematic universes? you could actually DO THAT?) that had consistent storylines and character development. I might even strongly prefer them. But I can, at this point, also appreciate that more loosely connected storytelling and the freedom it brings can have value. Do I want to go back to a world where that is the only kind of storytelling you can do (and it was very much done on purpose!), because it carters to people who randomly stuble across random episodes on tv and was seen as a way to get viewers? NO! But I'm also not a fan of the current landscape where it doesn't count if you didn't binge watch all (8 instead of 20+) episodes in a single sitting and there is no space to try to see the characters from new angles, and shows get cancelled. (Not all of these issues are necessarily related.)

@MotherShipMedia

2 ай бұрын

@@FeannaFey SNW very much follows the "old model" in terms of archetypal characters, and episodic story telling. So we can have it both ways in the modern world IMO.

that opening shot across the river to the monument had 500% TOS vibes.

What I really like about this season so far is how despite being serialized like the previous seasons it also feels quite episodic with them going to a new planet each episode, I love that! It feels like they're taking on board what people like about Strange New Worlds and applying it here while also retaining Discovery's style! This Season is genuinely really good so far, hopefully it keeps up, looking forward to the next episode!

For me Rayner felt more like like Shaw 2.0; a miserable, abrasive "well-he's-not-wrong", hardass command type that the writers are trying to replicate the popularity of with his somewhat amusing grumpiness. I swear to God if he dies as well...

@CaptainPikeachu

2 ай бұрын

I think he’s less Shaw 2.0 and trying to replicate any popularity, and more Prime Lorca 2.0 - they’re giving Rayner the story that some felt Lorca could have gotten as a war time captain trying to deal with finding peace, so I think it’s less Disco copying another show and more Disco taking ideas from its own earlier season

@thod8820

2 ай бұрын

He reminded me of Shaw a lot at first too, and I was kinda disappointed. It's definitely the same kinda character type. But I feel like he's already in a very different place with a different power dynamic and I'm hopeful that will make the difference

@jamesknight3070

2 ай бұрын

He's the A-Typical Captain with a long career who's seen combat, reminiscent of Captain Jellico (TNG, Chain of Command).

@billkerns9258

2 ай бұрын

@@jamesknight3070 Also reminds me of a Captain in TNG who wound up losing his command (The Pegasus). It's a trope that has been done a lot. But it shakes up the energy of the show.

@jamesknight3070

2 ай бұрын

@@billkerns9258I prefer these Captains, so it's annoying he's already been stripped of his command, and effectively demoted. We'll have to wait and see where this leads, but I hope they don't take the obvious routes.

Moll is not related to Book. She's the daughter of his mentor. The last person to hold the Cleveland Booker title was not related to him but only his mentor (kind of like the Dread PIrate Roberts lol). I found myself wondering how many of the callbacks were part of the content added in later. The drones reminded me of Arsenal of Freedom.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

Jessie's point is valid-she's pointing out that the _connection_ is contrived and likely isn't meaning to imply that they're blood related. But also bear in mind that *Book himself* has a non-human view of kinship, as we saw with his "brother" and nephew in S03-S04-I guarantee that he views Moll as family the exact same way he'd view a hypothetical sister from the same Mister (as it were).

What I learned from video games, a related point to the lesson you took, is that statues *always* come to life and attack you. Always. Even if they don't look like it. Even if you've blown them up. I had the same worry about Saru! I think Rayner's going to be interesting. I don't hate him like I hated Jellico or Lorca or Shaw (who is, second only to Picard, the greatest example of Starfleet's shitty mental health services). Rayner, to me, reminds me a lot of Kirk. Especially with that "times have changed" thing. Rayner cares deeply about the Federation, about being in the captain's chair ("don't let them do anything that takes you off of the bridge of that ship, because while you're there, you can make a difference"). He's not opposed to breaking the rules to get the job done. Very Kirk in my mind.

I figured out why I like Rayner so much-he's *Garibaldi.* Hear me out: he's _incredibly_ competent, but a *tremendous* jerk with absolutely no interest in or knack for politics and an authoritarian streak, besides. He holds a grudge, he speaks his mind, but for the right person he's also loyal _to a fault,_ which is where I'm feeling like they were intending his relationship with Burham to end up after a few seasons.

I'm sad that Saru left Discovery much more earlier than I've expected, but I'm still excited for the forthcoming nuptials between Saru and T'Rina.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

I'm hoping that Saru isn't leaving the show as much as giving us a new POV-seeing events play out from his ambassador position would be really cool.

@alanpennie

2 ай бұрын

​@@GSBarlev I think we'll see quite a lot of him but he can't play much part in the treasure hunt which will take up the bulk of the season.

A few thoughts: Rayner is a warhorse, not a fascist. There's a difference there. He's always looking at situations in terms of conflict, but we don't have any indications that he's got any inclination to oppress people. Being a hardass of a boss (which he certainly will be) isn't oppression, btw. Just a narrow view of how to get people on the same page. Mol and Book. I understand that the courier tradition of adopting the name of your mentor is similar to the japanese tradition of adopting the names of predecessors ou admire. No need to have any kind of blood relationship. I took Book's comment on Mol being the closest thing to a family more in the sense of being extended family. It also hints at how disconnected he is from the Discovery crew at the moment. And Couriers seem to be a small, specialized, community, in which everybody knows everybody else. Book certainly knows a lot of the players in there. It makes sense that the daughter of one would stay in that line of work - of a sorts.

Another small moment in this episode, Burnham respecting the burial ground and wanting to restore the damaged stones. Similar to last episode where they tried to find the Android's family. It just shows that in the middle of our fun adventure, we still have this inherent respect for other cultures in a meaningful way, not the sort of meaningless platitude kind of respect we often saw in TNG

I love Rayner as a character. I hope he doesn't turn out to be secretly evil. He reminds me of Kirk in The Undiscovered Country, the Galaxy has changed and hes either gonna change and grown or get left behind

@stardusty

2 ай бұрын

He's giving me big "interesting multifaceted Discovery character who will get unceremoniously killed off" vibes. I hate it.

@gearandalthefirst7027

2 ай бұрын

To me he's giving "Cop/soldier/general who did a bad thing but it's ok he's just old don't worry about it everyone makes mistakes

The second episode does a good job of establishing what is likely to be the rhythm of the season, in which we go to a new planet, solve the problem of the week, and set off for the next clue in the puzzle. If the first episode was a desert locale, the second one was a jungle, so the Indiana Jones influences are incredibly clear. But one major difference is that because this is Star Trek, the characters actually care about leaving things as they found them, as much as possible. But more importantly, it’s a chance at a Burnham/Saru mission, one last dance, as they solve the problems of a heavily guarded and abandoned statue. It’s evocative of “The Arsenal of Freedom,” but maybe with less USS Lollipop. Come to think of it, Fred is more like that hologram of Paul Rice! The problems are fine, and they’re competently dispatched, along with Rayner’s help, which is especially endearing, considering he was censured and asked to retire for his actions in the previous episode. But the showcase of the episode is how Saru and Burnham reminisce over their relationship. They kind of bring up a couple of things that function as Checkov’s guns: Saru reluctantly giving Burnham a second chance and Saru’s offensive use of quills (which earned him the nickname “Action Saru” from Reno, a bit like "Bold Boimler?"). Both guns get fired by the end of the episode. First, the quills dispatch some drones. Meanwhile, Book, Culber, and Stamets try to figure out more about Moll and L’ak, by using some of Book’s courier trickery to trace a phone call, in a classic undercover gangster movie setup. We later find out that Moll might be someone Book knew when she was just a kid, and went by Malinne (all the more reason she maybe took on the name “Moll” to evoke gangster slang), someone with a connection to the previous owner of the name “Cleveland Booker,” making Moll sort of a cousin or stepsister. As with Rayner, I kind of think this points to a possible redemption arc for Moll. We still don’t really know anything about L’ak, though. Speaking of Rayner, though, since he did help out this episode, and since he generally does the right thing, even if he pushes back, Burnham wants to fight for him. This is true even during hearing, and even after Vance concedes that he asked Rayner to retire. With Saru taking the ambassadorship, Burnham needs a number one. Since her previous number one was a former captain that wasn’t afraid to push back at Burnham, why not continue that streak with Rayner? This is that other Checkov’s gun, since Burnham pays forward the second chance she got, by giving one to Rayner. Maybe we’ll find how things work out, next week, as Adira has sent us off to Trill. They miss Gray, but kind of like their newfound solitude. I imagine we’ll see Gray, anyway, and see how things are between the two of them.

I got less of a Lorca vibe from Rayner and more Ed Jellico. Regardless it's going to be an interesting dynamic for the rest of the season. He's an entertaining character, though. Great on-screen charisma from the actor.

I was worried for saru as well. I think they were setting it up as Saru beeing a recurring character starting season 6 (and probably recurring in academy as well). Not sure if Rayner was going to stay for season 6 or if he gets his own command again.

That thing that began as mere discomfort (season 2) has grown to unbearable irritation (this season): all that sentimentality. It's almost half of every episode. I can't take it. Thanks for listening, folks.

I felt like they could do something interesting with Adira, the way they were talking about their feelings. They were saying they kind of like being on their own for the first time in a long time, and I hope they find a way to keep that. Because our culture puts so much emphasis on finding your person and loving them forever etc, but at the same time you can live life perfectly happily as a single person as well. And it'd be great to show that, especially since that romantic obsession is so much more amplified in media.

@Grounded_Gravity

2 ай бұрын

Plus both of these kids are so YOUNG for a forever commitment... Whatever happens to their relationship, I hope they both keep enjoying the freedom to explore who they are as individuals.

To me, Burnham's reprehension during the inquiry didn't feel like it stemmed from some misguided corps spirit where "we don't rat each other out". Where would Burnham of all people have acquired such a way of thinking in the first place? From my POV, she was holding out on a gut sense that something's off, a "Wait, why exactly are we doing this? Are we setting someone up as the scapegoat here? I don't appreciate to be instrumentalized, you know."

@obiheyer4567

2 ай бұрын

I think it also hinted on her own past, where she made bad decisions, while 'meaning well'. She seemed to recognise his motivations and wanted to give him the benefit of a doubt, or at least reserve judgment until the bigger picture could be seen.

Jessie, as long as we're doing the kind of deep analysis that recognizes Starfleet is doing police work this season AND we recognize that the show is making this both text and subtext- the manner of Fred's death investigation and the brief code of silence during the IA scene for text, and the "almost about to retire" and "my maverick officer is having trouble adjusting to the modern era" tropes... with a "you have to get inside their minds" and "I've been hunting those desperadoes for a while now" tropes for a bonus... wow, I wonder what else the season will give us. Anyway, since the tractor beam scene and DEFINITELY since the avalanche scene, I've been seeing Rayner as an insert character for the modern US. There's something in him... something shortsighted and quick to violence, stubborn, work-defined and vengeance-chasing, unwilling to make the ethically correct move until the peer pressure becomes overwhelming -- and only after dying on the dumbest hill possible willing to say the unifying thing that everyone else has already agreed to in the most touching way possible and try to make you believe that those were his ethics all along. Yeah. Something. Can't put my finger on it, but I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Re: The Indiana Jones vibe-- Having the final verse of the poem be under the statue gave me a flashback to the, "and take back one kadam to honor the Hebrew god whose ark this is" scene from Raiders.

I love this season so far! The first two episodes were fun and exciting, we got a couple of really nice character beats, and I'm really looking forward to what's next. I think the whole treasure hunt theme might also help with the pacing because we'll have at least five more places to go, kind of like the Red Angel stuff in the second season also helped that season's pacing.

I 100% agree about the fact that Starfleet is not the heart of the Federation, the people are. Ortega and Detmer have both been robbed of larger identities. I also agree that Starfleet shouldn't have a "Blue Wall" when dealing with civilian oversight.

Also, I liked the choice of Rayner for first officer, though it was a bit obvious in the endgame of E2. That said, he'll act as a great foil for Burhnam and a solid "opposing voice" who will still ultimately be loyal. You compared him to Lorca and I see the comparison, but I immediately thought back to Todd Stashwick's depiction of Shaw in Picard for Rayner ... there was always "something off" about Lorca that I just don't get with Rayner. For me, Rayner is more of a disillusioned but still very loyal Shaw character than an off-the-rails Lorca character ...

I got that it was Trill even before they said "Betazed".

@Donnagata1409

2 ай бұрын

Seriously? I didn't have an inkling! Total surprise. But very well conducted, anyway.

@HaroldElbowmanIV

2 ай бұрын

Yeah. It was the "opaline waters" for me. I don't think we've ever seen the surface of Betazed, but the brochure-worthy parts of Trill are the pools.

anyone else notice just a hint of Goonies flavor when it came to the music score on some of the treasure hunting parts? :edit to add: i think most seasons of Discovery have kinda been planned as a possible ending because of the shady treatment from the fans. Personally i feel bad for the actors of that show and the response our community gave them.

The world of the couriers is a much smaller world than Starfleet and associated rivals or the quadrant …

It was fun to watch. I love lore in Trek, we’re getting trek history. A protected graveyard, just what did they put in those graves. Killing people to protect graves, fascinating. I guess is it any different than haunting people.

Something that really pulled me out of this episode was the president being on the tribunal for Captain Rayner’s disciplinary hearing. However classified the mission, why would she be there? It’s not like the US President or the UK Prime Minister would be on the tribunal for a special forces colonel or captain. She's not even a member of Starfleet.

I loved this episode. I hope the wedding is a mix of the two cultures' traditions!

I'm really enjoying how this season is starting off. I hope it continues like this.

Both the Kellerun and utanis executed all the people who ever worked on the harvesters except Bashir and O'Brien and felt it necessary. So it follows that this bun-less Kellerun would get really intense with the by any means necessary energy.

It was a really good episode, I had a lot of fun

When Book had Moll digitally deaged, I actually thought the image shown was his nephew, and that he had now become his niece (even though the age wouldn't match up). But I was wrong, and was forced to face my subconscious bias of all children looking the same. She was a relative, though, so I was half right.

Goddamn, my favorite type of Discovery is Burnham + Saru Discovery. This episode was so fun for me and just showcased all the best of Disco.

Something I realized while watching these reviews, the two new enemies Mal and Lok are very much united. Moloch aside from being a one-off villain in a terrible episode of Buffy is a character in Milton's Paradise Lost an Epic poem. in the poem Moloch is a fallen Angel and King who led a cult whose primary tenet appeared to be child sacrifice. I think the season will play into the themes of cult-like belief and blood libel. This makes a lot of sense if Book really is related to Lok, it would also tie back to season one and the current political situation.

they did reshoots that are obvious in both episode1 and 2, leading it into their final episodes...

Hopefully by the end it will make sense why the Romulan scientist hid this amazing technology rather than using it, or even making it available to the scientists in his day. If he thought it was too dangerous to exist, why not destroy it?

3:59 “Let’s fly, you fools” would pretty much be the outcome if you Tuvix’d Burnham, Gandalf and Mr T.

wow you really nailed my thoughts on the new Captain. I really came Away feeling he's supposed to be the "right" to Lorca's and Section 31's wrong. That there are multiple ways to operate a ship, and different individuals may thrive under different environments and Command Structures.

Very much enjoying this season and I always like when Trek does the 'old soldier in peacetime' character. Edison from Beyond never gets enough respect for being a well done version.

Oh wow that was fast

This episode is much better than the 1st. More semi-Trek elements, but there’s still A LOT going on. A little too much. However, I love the Romulan puzzles, and the lore. There was one crybaby scene but it was pretty short. Now that Jefferey the Giraffe is gone, maybe it will happen less frequently.

I always felt like when The Chase came out on TNG it felt like it could be more than one episode so I am kinda excited to see what happens 🖖

@CT_Phipps

2 ай бұрын

I wonder if they'll reveal the Progenitors became the Changelings.

11:17 Oh, you have a new cat? 🐈☺️ I’m happy for you! 🥹

yeah i feel this season will really depend on the execution more then anything, got some fun ideas at least.

Having a transporter would make 99.9% of Lord of The Rings unnecessary. 😅

@tjzambonischwartz

2 ай бұрын

Orodruin was definitely within transporter range of the Shire. They're on the same continent ffs. Sauron deffo the type to use transport inhibitors or dampening fields in the cracks of doom, but you can still get close.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

Isn't this just another framing of: "Why didn't the eagles just fly Gandalf and Frodo to Mt. Doom?" Except in this case, _Trek_ has plugged this exact plot hole a hundred times (including in this episode): "The macguffin field around Middle Earth has rendered our transporters completely inoperable."

This episode gave me some very Star Trek: The Next Generation Season One Episode "The Arsenal of Freedom" vibes.

@johncattley5919

2 ай бұрын

This episode's effects make me think that this is what that episdode would have looked like if it had been made today.

I so hope they include references to Star Trek V: the Final Frontier! Sybok's quest to find the origin of creation failed, now his stepsis is going to fulfill it. That underdog movie is my guilty pleasure and needs vindication.

Your comparison of Rayner to Lorca is interesting, because I kind of feel like Book, Rayner, and the antagonist duo represent different aspects of Burnham's journey. Book reminds her of where she was when she boarded the Discovery, Rayner is who she was on the Shenzou, and the duo is who she was when she came to the 32nd century.

@jonvangilder4861

2 ай бұрын

Also, the fact that "Action Saru" is a Jett Renoism is perfection.

I like Rayner because it really gives us the pragmatic captain all the "when did trek go woke" guys wanted Lorca to be. Rayner is how he is based on his experiences but he shows that he's willing to continue to grow by experiencing more and taking what Burnham says in good faith. He's a good dude with a hard edge.

Spoilers . . . . . . . I love the very Raiders of the Lost Ark stuff at the end of this one. After the Arsenal of Freedom drones are dealt with we find out that Moll and L'ak have the front side of a two part clue. They even burn that side when they are done. Michael and Saru find the other side under the stonework and realize that Moll and L'ak are digging in the wrong place.

Hoping to get a visit to the "Tholian Republic," that would be somthing to see. 👩‍🚀

There were a number of reshoots after the cancellation was announced, so maybe that's why so many little scenes here and there give off final season vibes. That, or maybe this was always going to be Doug Jones' final season as a main character.

So, I kinda disagree with you about Rayner. He strikes me as much closer to a meditation on Season 1 *Burnham*. He has the same hard-charging, “I know what’s right and I’m going to do it, damn the consequences” attitude she did back then. He seems more like a “see how far you’ve come, how will you deal with someone just like you?” sort of character.

@pjlusk7774

2 ай бұрын

Also, Lyrek is the planet from the episode where Geordi made out with Holo-Brahms

@pjlusk7774

2 ай бұрын

I’m calling it here now: they aren’t looking at a map of Preserver tech, they’re looking at a map of Preservers. As in, this is going to end with them finding some Preservers still alive in stasis or something.

I love Rainer's actor from BSG, but does anyone else get a bit of Gary Graham in his acting and mannerisms?

@generalilbis

2 ай бұрын

Rayner does feel like Gary Graham's version of Matt Sikes from the TV version of "Alien Nation", which interestingly would tie in to Jessie's comments about not loving Burnham leaning into a Starfleet version of The Thin Blue Line.

I am honestly surprised you didn't talk about how weirdly sexual constructing that map initially was, the way they put the one piece onto the base and all? That whole scene had a weird vibe

Saru has been promised a happy ending so that does seem like he's marked for death and I'll be very unhappy if it happens.

@Donnagata1409

2 ай бұрын

Oh, no! I hope they won't kill Saru!

Omg where did you get that top!

0:14 I learned that ancient ruins are perfectly designed for British aristocrats who love to raid tombs and do some gymnastics inside them while wielding double pistols with unlimited ammo. 😉

It just occured to me... do we really see Retirony that much anymore? I mean, I get feeling concerned for Saru in the moment for this episode, but when's the last time anyone can remember that trope being played straight? When I think of it, what pops into my head isn't even a moment where it happened, it's that episode of Psych where everytime a character said he was close to retirement whenever Shawn and Gus were in ear shot they'd duck.

Gentle reminder that her name is T'rina not T'rin :)

I was 100% fully ready for you to say “Jellico.” I was almost surprised you DIDN’T say Jellico.

I heard Dark Comms and instantly heard in my head Roald and Stewart whispering "Dark Comms"....

YASSS. Also, JESSIE, where did you get that Lower Decks shirt from!? I MUST HAVE ONE.

Working my way through this season weeks late (6/10 right now), thought I'd pause and watch these reviews, really enjoy it. This has been a great season so far, and I agree a lot that it really feels like a final season, anyway. That said, there is something deep at the core of this season that I hate: it's not the treasure hunt aspect, it's the prize at the end of it. I never liked the Progenitors, and this feels like a dull choice. That said, I did like the idea of "purpose" being a big theme (spoilers: feels like this is mostly dropped after this episode). Something I kinda tweaked on in this episode, but really became more apparent for me in subsequent episodes: I feel like the show's stretching itself too much, by trying to have these multiple foci, including (more subsequently) multiple non-Discovery-based. Trying to give us some of our new Bonnie & Clyde, Book, Rayner, etc., it leaves the other crew members out in the cold. I don't even remember Detmer, Owosekun, Rhys, etc. in these first couple episodes, characters that I feel have been poorly served over the entirety of this show (especially as the cast expanded, even if I think Book was the best addition since Pike), especially as Tilly's now back as a regular, I guess? Agree on the debrief scene: I was also getting "code of blue" vibes with the way Burnham was hesitant to be critical of Rayner, something that's definitely framed as her being loyal and honourable. I can definitely understand the concern of "small universe syndrome" over Book's connection to the new duo, but was also willing to let that go over the potential for good character work for Book. While I didn't have the exact same concerns about the action stuff, I do in hindsight. Was concerned that the guy with "one last mission before retirement" combined with "gonna marry my girlfriend" was going to die, so was nice to see Saru survive, but it did feel almost like a season or even series wrap for the character (which it obviously was not).

Is anyone picking up that L'ak keeps using variations of Shiney?.......dude is gonna be this shows Malcolm Reynolds.

Omg, where did you get that top? I love that shirt!

Rayner is perfectly fine but I'm a tad irritated that they're dropping Saru in favour of him. As has been remarked on this thread they didn't know until late in the game that this would be the final season and I suspect they wouldn't have done this if they had known.

I’m writing this having seen through ep. 5. I like Discovery, it went down hill after season 3. And this season it has a lot of relationships going on! Maybe too much. Just a lot of meaty heavy drama between characters. Not bad, not being a hater or anything but it does seem to be forced or unrealistic to some degree because it’s emotional every scene. But Discovery has been a great show with a great cast but I am loving capt Pikes Star Trek.

So that feeling you are getting on that there might be a feeling that this was the final season might be because the original plan could have been that this was going to be Saru’s final season.

I think SMG and Doug Jones were leaving the show at the end of the season.

THANKS for this!! Enjoyed the second ep more than the first and I think the new Number One is the perfect combo of Shaw, Riker, Jellico and Worf :) re: Your (over) sensitivity: I've seen a few of your videos now and I think you have a difficult job because you are a near-anarchist (a compliment coming from me :) ) who loves a franchise created by a white male hetero cop about a space NATO :). Disco example: Michael didn't want to throw him under the bus because she and he just disagreed; dude wasn't trying to a human rights violator. As far as your SNW identity comment goes: As you know by your dress code :), Starfleet *is an identity,* the way the U.S. Marine Corps is, 'nuff said (a phrase that for *decades* I thought Stan Lee had made up :) ).

I will keep watching to see where this goes. I'm already frustrated with the pacing. They got one over on Moll & L'ak by guessing that it's Trill instead of Betazed... and they're just going to hang out at Starfleet HQ tonight and head over to check it out in the morning? Where's the urgency that had the higher ups willing to kill people last episode? I know that this is a lot to ask, but I want each episode in the season to be a compelling part of the whole. I liked many parts of this one, but what did it add up to besides one more piece of the puzzle? I think this one would have fared better if it weren't so closely released to compare with the excitement of the premiere.

Ruins for the ruined god!

You made an error in your review. This season was in the can when it got cancelled. It was never intended to be written as the final season of the series. Paramount ordered reshoots (and presumably rewrites) to make this season a more proper ending for the series after shooting ended.

Okay if Moll is (a) Hati from Ahsoka, still alive due to dark side immortality gained under Darth Maul's tutelage after Skoll's disappearance; and (b) the daughter of Cleveland Booker IV - then (c) Cleveland Booker IV was born "a long time ago" in the Star Wars era as well. [Btw Darth Moll: just b'cuz you're centuries old doesn't mean you're not still a "Hati" *wink*] Anywaze: Did CB4 and Darth Moll travel together from "a galaxy far, far away" - introducing the Purgill to the Milky Way in the process? If so, did they know the Purgill would one day send a giant dildo to scream at Earth? Is that their plan now? To do it again? I guess we'll see this season. .....WAIT. Is Darth Malinne a millenegenarian dueling-timelines antagonist for Mystique? An ancient somebody who's, like, trying for a timeline that requires Mystique & Destiny's "Protect Spock, our descendant" timeline to be canceled? And the Purgills are part of it, and like... the Star Trek timeline and Mystique's timeline are at war with each other kinda? But it's all been started by somebody from the Star Wars end of the Star Trek timeline? Huh. ...WAIT AGAIN. We saw R2-D2 in the Kelvin timeline, and the Kelvin timeline wouldn't exist without Prime Spock. Maybe Ni'Var isn't the point (or not the only point) of Mystique & Destiny's thing. Even deeper: Maybe Darth Moll is afraid of Kelvin R2-D2, b'cuz R2 knows what's up about "a long time ago" stuff. ...OR - especially if there is a timeline war with Mystique going on - maybe Darth Moll is afraid of Kelvin Khan and his designer genes. (Who as we all know is Mystique, because Mystique was Sherlock Holmes and so was Kelvin Khan with the designer genes. We call that the Trans-Itive Property.) [TANGENT] Of course Mystique is on Babylon 5 as a leader of the MCRN (as of SNW, "Number One" is Mystique no matter the context) - but did you notice that that means Voyager's Grendel holoprogram places Mystique in the story? What, is she in a drawing on a scroll or something? Just how old IS she?

What I actually found a bit odd was the inquiry itself. I mean, I can get behind it in the context of a pattern of behaviour and everybody trying to establish a new version of Starfleet, but the president of the Federation asking a Captain about an incident where he didn't acutally cause the avalange and did in fact save the city? The whole "you gave them the idea" thing I didn't really like in the last episode but understood where it was coming from, but in an official inquiry? It's not completely irrational of course, but it did feel a bit odd to me. Though of course they needed some kind of reason for Rayner to be demoted, and, as I said, if we see the inquiry as adressing a pattern of behaviour in which this is just the last straw I can get behind it. I think I guessed that he'd be the next 1st officer the moment Saru told Michael she needed somebody who wouldn't just agree with her. The initial oddness I felt at the inquiry was the reason I could kind of get behind Michaels unwillingness to say she disagreed. It wasn't a discussion about the merits of different strategies, it was about punishing Rayner. And even if you disagree with that one decision you can disagree that he should be punished for it. On the other hand "silence cultures" are obviously wrong. I guess there's always a balance (that the police are obviously on the wrong side of) between people taking on jobs with risks where they have to make fast decisions and actions and how to adress mistakes, whether it's a structural issue or a certain person is really a problem (think also mistakes in medicine etc.). So, in the end, I can agree that something needed to be done to adress Rayners actions and attitudes and I hope this'll be a way to integrate him into the new Federation.

I don't know, to me it just seems like The Further Adventures of Burnham and Booker. Great actors and special effects with weak story lines. And sorry, Tilly a thousand years in the future setting an example at a military academy should not look the way she does.

Man I really want to like this show but ...... I understand that Starfleet isn't a military per se but for gods sake can at least one character respect a chain of command? Rayner ranting at the Federation President was too much for me, and why was she doing on the panel in the first place?!? Stuff like that drives me up a wall. They write really good adventure stories, they should stick to that, whenever they go into the inner workings of starfleet or the federation the show goes off of the rails. I am worried about the Starfleet Academy show, I'll give it a try, but I'm worried.

They set off every trope that meant Saru was about to die. Every damn one.

Ouch... no, they are pushing for Daoist philospophies, not queer ones. Just just queer philosophy incidentally lines up perfectlg doesn't change the strong feeling of wuwei to this season!

pretty sure it's 5.01 not 5.02

One thing I miss about the older shows is how people didn’t speak in contemporary vernacular. You didn’t get 80s quips in TNG, or gangsta rap in DS9. It’s not the worst thing in the world, but Tilly’s and Adira’s *banter* drives me insane. You can be neurodivergent without fitting into such a narrow contemporary stereotype of how that personality type presents itself.

I thought Tilly was extremely annoying. She doesn’t have the gravitas to be a teacher at the Academy. And she’s not as cute as she thinks she is.

@CT_Phipps

2 ай бұрын

I think she's plenty cute but a Starfleet Captain is a better teacher than someone who didn't become one, unless she's teaching math.

@billkerns9258

2 ай бұрын

That's a common thing which annoys me with many shows, not just Trek. I can buy into this with Tilly since Starfleet is just starting up again, so they'd lack a deep pool of available professors. But many shows belittle the expertise and training as well as the overall work of a professor.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

Yikes, where did you people go to school? I had amazing teachers and professors *exactly* this awkward and nerdy, and as an adult I have friends who are teachers who _could use mentoring_ from Tilly in terms of professionalism. As we saw in last season's backdoor pilot, Tilly's strength is in her ability to connect to her students. She's no doubt an amazing professor, and Mary Wiseman is the only reason I'm excited for _Starfleet Academy._

@billkerns9258

2 ай бұрын

@@GSBarlev Can't speak for every person commenting, just me, and I'll admit I haven't watched every episode. I've enjoyed Tilly so please don't take this as on attack on Tilly (I don't like the way fanbases can get really divided). But at least in the episodes I've seen I hadn't seen her established as a PhD-type science expert (or whatever she's teaching). By comparison, it made sense for Crusher to go to the academy because her expertise in medicine was establed. Miles O'Brien may not have been a high ranking officer (relatively) but I could buy into the idea that he had training and experience at a professorial level. Hollywood commonly does a good job in highlighting the connection aspect of teaching and please don't misunderstand me, that care and connection component is very important. But so is the subject area training and expertise. Whether or not there is such a thing as a PhD in the Trek time period I'd like to think that a high level academy would want a level of expertise and experience at that type of level. People who are professors at the present day equivalent (maybe the Naval Academy) are experts in their fields. You'll find different levels of expertise and research training among professors at different universities of course, but Starfleet Academy is long established as elite in the show, so for me to buy into a character as a professor I'd look for a high level of expertise and experience, the type you might find at the Naval Academy or even a place like Stanford. I can cut the show some slack here when I think of Starfleet as rebuilding and imagine that there is a lack of subject area expertise. It's just kind of a pet peeve of mine when the overall level of training and responsibilities of a professor are brushed aside in Hollywood. For instance, on Yellowstone, when a character who held a master's degree was suddenly named an Associate Professor with tenure rather than going through the steps of being an Assistant Professor, lacking publications and experience. Maybe in the future, they will establish that Tilly has the type of training I'd like to see in an elite faculty. She is being used as a science expert in these episodes. I'm assuming that this season they will place a priority on the development of her character.

@GSBarlev

2 ай бұрын

@@billkerns9258 My recollection is that the early seasons established her as having top-tier science bona fides-that she was basically Stamets' postdoc-but I'll admit I could be mistaken. And your general point is a good one given that the Academy has been portrayed as analogous to a contemporary US military academy.

Great job ppl, yall DEI'd too close to the sun and now Paramount is a junk stock, is up for sale, with nobody interested. which means more than likely there won't be any Star Trek in the future. You succeeded in ruining it for everybody.

i just KNEW they were gonna kill the new white captain for the crime of being white, like the a-hole character from back in New Eden luckily they are making him into a captain Shaw type character. i was very pleasantly surprised by this, as i was by how loyal Micheal was to him in the hearing. i look forward to seeing more of him

@CT_Phipps

2 ай бұрын

Does dough Jones not count because he's an alien?

@billkerns9258

2 ай бұрын

What about the admirals who are frequently on the show and quality officers? The diverse representation does include high ranking, dignified white men. I admit that the downfall of the captain is pretty cliche, not because he's a man or white, but because the "decorated combat officer who can't adjust to peace" thing is a cliche.

@jasonwright8832

2 ай бұрын

I'm confused. I think you mean the "a-hole" character from Discovery 2x01 Brother (Lieutenant Junior Grade Evan Connolly played by Sean Connolly Affleck, who crashes his landing pod into debris after disobeying an order from Pike). It seems odd that you attribute his death to "the crime of being white" when that episode also features Pike who is also white and not only went on to appear in every episode in that season but is working on the third season of his own spin-off series. Isn't it more likely that the character died because he was an "a-hole"? I'm not even sure how you thought to connect the two. Stamets and Tilly and Reno and Vina and Adira and Spock and Amanda and Sarek and Una and Kovich and Detmer are all white and all of them thrive. Saru and Siranna, Laira Rillak & Zora, Su'Kal & L'Rell are all non-human characters but they're all played by white human actors. So I don't understand this "crime of being white" criticism. It makes no sense.

@mbrando4403

2 ай бұрын

@@jasonwright8832 yeah, thats the guy i meant... i didnt read all of your reply.... but yes, i should have said "the crime of being a white a-hole" whick Pike (and Saru) are obviously white, they are also obviously have huge beta-male energy. they assume (Pike and Saru) they are not in charge (even though they are/should be) because it would be "socially awkward" for them to boss around females/minorities and or "other".... but right, not New Eden... it was 2-1, and i dont even disagree, the guy was an a-hole... i just assumed Capt. Rainer (or whatever Lorca 2.0 is called) would be killed off for the same reasons. but obviously they are leaving him allive so he can learn something about the "oppressive patriarch" that allowed him to get his position in the first place. HE NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT RIGHT FROM WRONG (obviously Pike and Saru doesnt)

@billkerns9258

2 ай бұрын

@@mbrando4403 And what about the white men who are the bosses of the captains? Two particular white male admirals are frequently on the show. They are shown to be competent. I suppose you will say they are "beta male" because they aren't presently captains but to rise to the position of an admiral you have been a captain and may have served in combat. In real life, admirals are really not that commonly looked down upon by captains (I realize that's a Trek trope so many Trek viewers are conditioned to look down on admirals compared to captains). Part of the arc of last season involved big mistakes made by the captain's boyfriend, played by a Black Male actor, and his arc of redemption with lessons learned is still very much also ongoing. So it isn't just white men who make mistakes and pay a price for mistakes on the show. It's common in fiction stories to have characters make mistakes and learn from mistakes. It's also common for characters who are "a-holes" to pay a price. Regardless of race, gender and so forth. Discovery has plenty of flaws and sometimes I comment on them but really, this talking point (I know many KZread commenters say what you are saying) is kind of tired. The captain herself has made mistakes and received mentoring from characters played by white male actors (Suru and an admiral). I grant her character can be critiqued but the character of James Kirk (in the Kelvin Timeline more so than the main classic timeline) was also a character who made big mistakes and received very fast, unrealistic promotions then went on to do fantastical things at a young age with little experience. The common social media critiques of Burnham are also characteristics held by Kelvin timeline Kirk. One reason I don't like Kelvin timeline Kirk is that the character is highly unrealistic and his rise to Captain the the 2009 movie was farcical, but I certainly don't recall a social media outcry about Kirk. It is telling that there is an outcry among many about the development of the Burnham character when whatever flaws we might point to in her character development by the writers are strikingly similar to flaws found in the development of the Kelvin timeline Kirk's character arc. The flaws are in fact more pronounced with Kelvin Kirk since he became a captain pretty much out of the Academy after a cheating scandal, didn't serve as a first officer, and lacked time to be mentored (he pretty much rejected mentoring). I find Kelvin Kirk to be horribly written and developed, but it's hypocritical to have an outcry about Burnham without recognizing that tropes found in her character development are found in Kirk (and other characters I could also name).