Make this the standard please

I've been telling EEVERYONE about EL zone. Thank you ED for your persistence with getting the new information out. I'm glad smallhd listened and hopefully other companies will follow

@BryanKeithPhoto

4 ай бұрын

Atomos is incorporating it now - 2/2024

Big thumbs up for Sigma for incorporating EL Zone System also into their Sigma FP as a firmware. I have to say I love it!

this is fantastic, as a photographer that transitioned to filmmaking iv been frustrated with not being able to visualise in stops!

This man is legendary thank you for giving us this its way better than false color

I recently started using the El Zone and it has made a HUGE difference. Super super grateful for Ed's persistence to get this created.

Absolutely brilliant and a game changer for filmmakers. Side note, the lighting and color on this set are amazing.

this is gold. Thanks Shane and Ed!

Best interview out there about the El system! Thank you

That one of the main reason I am getting a SmallHd On board Monitor

Absolutely awesome. Congratulations!

This is fantastic!

Thanks for the great interview! Hope this tool will appears on all systems in future

This cleared it up a lot for me. Definitely makes sense why to use this over ire. Going to start using this tomorrow.

Fantastic video!!! ❤🔥🙌🏽

This is a fantastic feature on the SmallHD monitors. Really looking forward to get this as standard in Davinci Resolve. Be great for analysing still from Shotdeck.

@taimosdailos8716

Жыл бұрын

Hell yes!

26:50 "So here we're half a stop to a stop, stop, STOP". Jokes aside, where do I sign? I want this on my URSA :D

Fantastic. Thank you.

Love this standard, really hope it become ubiquitous in the camera industry!

The Lach! Todd Haynes secret weapon! Bravo, Shane. I love this. Thank you!

Great podcast. Love the EL Zone system. Wish it was a free and open standard though so everyone can implement it.

This looks great, I hope all camera manufacturers will implement this!

@The_Daliban

9 ай бұрын

they probably won't. There is a patent on this. But smallhd has it implemented

God bless this man!

look at that lighting ❤

This is awesome

Thanks for this. I contacted Sony and Átomos and requested this be added.

@MockeryManor

Жыл бұрын

I did the same thing. I’m really hoping Atomos puts in this system. It’s great on the Sigma FP.

I think this needs to be everywhere and get to everyone with social media beacuse anyone can benefit from this. Please talk to every posible youtube influencer posible to spread the knowlege.

This is an amazing innovation! I just picked up a smallhd cine5 and I can’t wait to utilize the EL system. I have found myself frustrated using IRE from using false color on camera to scopes in post. I hope this can become standard across the board be utilized in post. It is much easier to understand stops over IRE values.

Great video about the EL Zone system. Email request to Atomos sent. Coming from photography and now video having this simple 18% gray system which is logical and straight forward would be amazing in all camera systems and other monitor companies. Please keep producing great educational content.

@Puddlegrapher

7 ай бұрын

I think the new atomos have el zone!

@MrVh78

4 ай бұрын

I now have it on my Atomos @@Puddlegrapher

Progress in the Atomos range but still would like it in cameras. Great system.

This is very nice . One would like to see it on Sony and Alexa. False color is great but this maybe better.

Absolutely love this! This should be the new standard. I shoot on RED and small hd has given us the way.

i always wondered why false color isn't done in stops. the color scale is confusing to look at tho. i wish it could have a different design

Even at my level of low budget indie things I'm putting up on KZread... I would love this. I use false color all the time. I picked up a Sekonic light meter even though I'm coming from the digital era and never had to expose film. BUT it shows in my work and has made a huge difference by trusting my tools and not my monitors. I started speaking in stops even at my level so this would be phenomenal!

Sigma is on board. Small HD on board. I'm on board. :) The app is going to really help out with scouting. Love it.

this system makes sooooo much sense

Hopefully they put this in every camera and monitor but YES! Make it an app.

El Zone System is an awesome tool for contract and consistent exposure.

makes perfect sense

This is also in the Sigma FP and FPL as well (super tiny cinema camera :) )

Muy bueno!

20:15 Exposure-Latitude Zone System

"I hate that tent" I laughed like mad. I guess this tool can keep the cinematographer mentally and physically on the set or where the real action is.

Do we know the releasedate of the app? This is fantastic!!!

Would love to see this tool implemented into Cadrage.

Use it on my Atomos, what a game changer!

Brilliant. Makes so much sense. C'mon Sony - Pay the man and step up!

This guy reminds me of Doc Brown.

Oh. A question ...pribably newbie one.... How EL Zone system compares with Sony Cine EI system? Any ideas about this ? Is this to systems reaching for the same ? Different attempts to represent exposure intuitive in a analog terms a bit ? What us better ? Can they only be competitive? Or can be used togather somehow ? Make a perfect solution togather ? (One is showing main picture as it is... Darker or ligher... Anothe replacing false colour )

Ya.. i want it

Interesting concept, though a couple questions (Sorry about the length ☺): I wonder how this works with the different logarithmic curves used in the manufacturer's different gamma curves? Would the signal out of a given sensor have to first be converted to whatever logarithm the false colour scale is built around? The reason false colour values change (or are customizable) across camera systems is because their sensor signals will break down by different amounts at different points before hitting a hard 'clip' value. Meaning you will have different values for where you want to have each colour. Especially with cameras using less than full chroma subsampling towards the ends of the gamma curve. The idea for this seems to be a false colour view that has each colour placed at logarithmic intervals across the signal, is that right? But how do you reconcile that not all logarithms are the same? I guess maybe this is why he needs manufacturer collaboration to make sure the correct colours are given to the correct parts of the log signal as even changing gamma curve with the same camera would require a change in those false colour values. Not to mention that the chroma responses of different camera sensors will change, sometimes wildly depending on how close to the ends of the range a given value gets, so the idea of 'there's still information there' can be a real mistake to assume as the waveform is only reading luma from the signal, not the colour volume in the data, so sometimes a 'pre-clip' colour can be assigned manually to flag when your exposure is entering that part of the gamma curvature that's much more agressive in it's signal compression than the 'sweet spot' of the middle. Also, colourists definitely work in IRE (technically it's 10bit YRGB values but who's counting) when working as the signal being sent to a display still needs to remain 'legal' to a given spec (for Standard Dynamic Range that's often BT.709). There's a lot of science and math behind why scopes don't scale according to how physical light does that's way too complicated for youtube (Look up Charles Poynton's books if you're interested) but fundamentally you need to understand that you're no longer working with light once the image is captured, you're actually working with a signal (or emulsion density if in film). These signals don't exist in the same phenomena as inverse square law and scene lighting. Take when you are, for example, displaying an image in BT.709 you only have 100nits. The range of stops you have to work with is about 5stops, in cast light from the display for the eyes to perceive (from brightest white possible to darkest black possible), whereas the reality of the scene you were operating in could have potentially had 20+ stops from brightest to darkest. Add to that the scene's light was captured it on a camera with maybe about 15 usable stops of clean sensor signal (and so must be set to respond logarithmically to try and squeeze more of that real-life range into the sensor data) and then is finally played back on a display that has a range of 5 stops. That's a huge delta for the concept of a 'stop' to be transformed through. So the idea of a 'stop' in light fundamentally changes once you have to reproduce the image 'faithfully' on a display (analogue or digital). In post you need to be able to judge the image in relative terms because the range and value scales of the brightness are not the same as what real life uses naturally. That's kind of bad news as it will leave a DP not being able to communicate directly about the image as the scales and concepts on-set and in real life are no longer appropriate. Thankfully there are ways for colourists to do math in the background that allows them to make the 'equivalent' change to the signal to equate to a 'stop' of real light change. But it is by no means an appropriate concept of measurement when it comes to crafting the image because of that massively reduced range in the display's light output. It also just goes to show what an impressive job our minds do to manage the difference in values to help reproduce a visual experience that is 'faithful' to the scene. (again, apollogies for the text wall!)

@JimRobinson-colors

Жыл бұрын

I pretty much came to the same questions - I did hear him say that the Monitor included setting it up for different cameras - so my guess is that it has some kind of transform to evaluate the stops before it is laid out in the color swatches on the scene. I feel like it may work well having that half a stop above and below middle grey for seeing detailed information in skin tones ( dark or light )

@_burd

Жыл бұрын

​@@JimRobinson-colors Yea it would certainly be useful on set where optics and light fixtures will be bound to inverse square law. But perhaps as just an option as I'd still rather have custom false colour that I've set up for a given camera package and it's capabilities, which often has more nuance than just clipping or not clipping. What would perhaps be useful would be a plot of the volume of sensor data along the Gama curve in play. So you can visually see where parts of the signal start to enter the curved ends of the gamma and are being subjected to some signal compression/loss. But yea, that would leave everyone on set none the wiser in terms of what decisions to make in terms of aperture or light power. Light is hard 🤔

@andreas_petker

Жыл бұрын

For this to work you've to feed a log signal into the monitor and then in the monitor settings change the color pipeline from default rec709 to whatever you're feeding it (s-log3, arri log c4, etc.). I think the EL option didn't even show up for me until the input changed to log. Note that it won't work on some of the older SmallHD monitors...it needs to be able to support the firmware upgrade to PageOS5.

@_burd

Жыл бұрын

@@andreas_petker Okay cool, so it's the monitor that handles the transform work in this case. That's good as it's still important to see the signal according to the scale it's encoded in. I know he said that some camera manufacturers have adopted it as a display option but I just struggle to see it being used in professional post work outside of helping the DP understand what's going on 🤔

@jordanhughes671

Жыл бұрын

@@andreas_petker I just updated my smallhd 1703 HDR, anything after v5.0.0-Beta-4 wont support the 1703HDR/a lot of other smallhd monitors like you said but... it does work with the beta. We did tests with various lenses and light meter.... I'm very excited about using the EL zone on set, trying it out on the 7th. The beta is not compatible with the dsmc3 red touch or action 5, the DP1,6,4 or the AC7 and DP7-pro. There are some bugs but nothing I've come across so far.

does +6 represent clipping? or does it just represent 6 stops over middle grey and you need work out whether that falls within the dynamic range of the camera?

@tylerfukuda

3 ай бұрын

Above 18%, which is why he said you can change the bracketing to see above the 6 stops in order to see when you’re clipping.

more information here then 100 plus videos

Any change of getting this on Ninja Monitors'

@adambobroy1958

5 ай бұрын

new ultras have it

@nyambe

5 ай бұрын

@@adambobroy1958 Yes I saw them at a Sony event.

I still can't figure out how the EL zone system differs - IRE has to be in the calculation of percentages to build the thing to emulate the stops. Same with middle grey - if one log system has middle grey from a Arri log C 4 the middle grey is not in the center - it's at .278 and then V-log is at .423 - if you fed each of those in then obviously the actual log version needs to be inputted. Does it then do a log conversion as part of the placement for stops? Every log waveform I have ever looked at has a huge foot and shoulder to get maximum stops to record. So this whole system I guess needs to be implemented with some kind of transform from LOG to display - I don't know.

@scotey

Жыл бұрын

You're exactly right. You can't even view EL Zone false color on a SmallHD monitor unless you feed it a valid log profile.

@KyleBartReidFilm

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it takes the gamma curve into account.

Develop an app that can show you what the EL Zone System would see based on specific camera profiles. This could possibly help during location scouting.

@jordanhughes671

Жыл бұрын

He talks about doing this near the end.

@GlenReed

Жыл бұрын

@@jordanhughes671 hmm 🤔 I must have totally missed that, I watched to the end.

@jordanhughes671

Жыл бұрын

@@GlenReed If anything it just shows you were thinking about it the right way!

Isn't this similar to GioScope?

Where do I sign?

@jimmyzjam

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, This has been bothering me for years!!!

Use EL zones every day on a separate 1303. Such a great idea

Ansel is a Jedi of Photography.

So is this just a different scale for false color?

@tallguynow

Жыл бұрын

Looks like it but more specific to camera information

Thanks a lot. Still a little bit difficult to get all details. Can you make more videos on this technology. Especially piplene of production and post-production . How we capture,writing and keeping all information about the shot now ? Doing a screenshot of ЕL zone screen ? Only with a help of your DIT ? Or there is a screenshot button on Small HD monitors ? (So it really make a lot of science not to run around the location with spotmeter and write down all readings from every zone of the frame...) What's next ? You keeping screenshots of EL zone system and witha a... Log screenshot, and Lur applied screenshot Somewhere in file with a directors screenplay table (I don't remember the name in English) Whats next... DIT documentations ? All positions of all fixtures? And there levels in numbers? Overhead picture or drawing of fixtures positions? In meters from a ...talent ? And one another ? All the new pipeline of the cinematographers and AC s on a set to get a the totally consistent result that can be matched and recreated any time by any other people. In numbers... It is really interesting

Hope this can become the standard, it is so much more streamlined and easier to interpret.

I still don't get it.

@AtomosChannel What are you waiting for?...

Is is ei zone system? or el zone system. I sounds like spanish 'el'. You should

@filmmakers_academy

Жыл бұрын

It is "El" for "Exposure Latitude" Zone System

Exposure Latitude 😅

I love that video and its content, but I still do not understand why Shane wants to adjust and move his false color scale on a Flanders monitor.... It´s for me like moving the scale of a Sekonik light meter. For what....? - Then again: I thought 10% IRE equal 1 stop..... and the color shifts in false color shift every 10%.... I do applaud the effort and I would buy the App, but I am afraid camera manufacturers won´t want another tool onboard they have to pay residuals for.

@bobnanlee

Жыл бұрын

When you have a adjustable IRE meter, you can preset the acceptable range for your own. That's the point. Eg, with Arri false color, you know green is middle grey, which is proper exposed level, what if I accept proper exposed +2 stop and -2 stop? They are all acceptable to me for the entire scene. I dont want my leading actor's face is always under a proper exposed look. How you gonna monitor it with the false color? You have no idea how many stop over or under when it's pink, cyan or whatever. IRE is linear but light stop is not linear, it is double. There is no way to use IRE for STOP. IRE can only give you a rough estimate for the proper exposure. That' why Shane of course will do over/under test for different camera and mark out what IRE range is one stop over nad what's one stop under then customize the IRE range color.

@of1300

Жыл бұрын

@@bobnanlee thanks a lot. That made it definitely clearer to me.

A for effort! If it helps you use it but don’t put it in our equipment for everyone. What you’re trying to do we can do better with nits. It’s going to take you time and brain power working out the conversions so you can converse with crew. However, its more accurate than this. Heres why, you’re not working with the analog photographic medium anymore. My light is being mapped to electricity, not silver halide and dyes. I know my tools, how they translate and false color is by far not the only tool i use. The waveform, by the way does map everything and is critical if you know how to actually read the entire thing. I don’t need another new system. I knew IREs were ill fitted when digital first came out and didn’t use them from the start since the 90s. I used millivolts then and nits now. So have fun but don’t put it in my gear thanks.

@garymentimon1532

6 ай бұрын

One more key point to bear in mind. There are several but this one’s easy. Using this as your system just understand that you’re still only measuring reflectance not incidence. A lot of these folks who are quick to adopt the newest thing without understanding how optics work should be aware before they sell their meters. Reminds me when video first began being used professionally in 1970s and you had experienced film DP’s professing we don’t need meters anymore because now we have monitors.