"You cannot have grief without love, and you cannot have love without the inevitability of grief." -Steven Erikson

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

He does have a way with words. He should write some books or something.

My deepest thanks to you, A.P., and to Steven Erikson for this discussion. Toll the Hounds moved me beyond words, and having the chance to chat about it with the two of you was both an honor and a joy.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

As ever, my friend, this has been a real honour and a lot of fun to discuss these books with you this year. You might be my nemesis, but I wouldn't trade that away. Have a fantastic New Year, and I look forward to many more discussions with you in the future.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

And plotting your downfall, of course. I can't forget that.

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon Yes, please be sure that you’ve penciled in “downfall plotting for Dr. Fantasy” on your agenda! 😁

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Pencilled in??? I have it in permanent marker, my friend. Permanent marker. No escaping it now. It is written down and everything.

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon Ha ha! In which case, I look forward to it very much!

SE opening up to us about this book is such an act of kindness and vulnerability. I think we're privileged to be given access to a conversation like this. Watching this video gave me goosebumps and tears in my eyes at certain moments (but the end was very uplifting, so), thank you for the fantastic journey that this discussion was! Too bad it didn't last longer, I could listen to you three discussing for hours. I think I've missed what A.P. mentioned in the description of the video: that SE points to a major theme that wasn't discussed in detail. Which one is it? Is it the cipher?

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

Hello, Rox! A.P. was alluding to the theme of love, which we chatted about in the beginning, and which, as a Malazan veteran, you know all about anyway. 😊I’m so glad the discussion was meaningful for you!

@RoxanaMagdaD

2 жыл бұрын

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy aw, thank you very much, Philip! I can be very dense sometimes...oftentimes :)))

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

@@RoxanaMagdaD So can we all! 😄

@RoxanaMagdaD

2 жыл бұрын

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy always gentle and kind, thank you for it!

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Rox, I am so pleased that you enjoyed this. Getting the opportunity to speak to both Erikson and Philip about these books have been some wonderful highlights in my year, and I am glad that we could share it with everyone. A very happy New Year to you,.

The emotional impact on the reader of Anomander’s sacrifice is the same as on the Andii. I think that can explain in-universe why he did it as he did: to make it more cathartic for his people.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Catharsis is such an important concept for the whole of the MBotF, but especially so here. Thanks for watching.

Odd how we just jumped to the elements of grief and forgiveness skipping the root cause of those emotions - love. And the depth of grief is balanced by the strength of that love. Another aspect of Dragnipuir is that Rake is literally carrying the weight of his people's grief on his shoulder. It is the symbol of both Mother Dark's Turning and at the same time the Andii's ambiguous betrayal or perhaps disobedience of which Rake seems to be at the heart. The turning of the wagon paralleling the turning of the Andii and Mother Dark. This book might benefit the most of a reread because there are so many call backs. So so much. Yeah, might have to re-reread this one as a stand alone after I read (insert 10 books here)...

Hi AP. I have really been enjoying this series of discussions. I remember when Toll the Hounds first came out, I bounced off of it hard. When I finished it, I realized that my expectations were the problem. I wasn't listening to what the book was trying to say. So I immediately reread it. It was a much more satisfying experience. That being said, it was only years later and with more life experience that I grew to love it. I still don't get excited when I get back to it. It's just too heavy. But I love it. Plus it has the greatest mule duel in fiction history.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Mule duels are the future of fantasy. There. I have made my prediction for 2022. :) Happy New Year.

@Paul_van_Doleweerd

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon How many duels would a dueling mule duel if a dueling mule could duel mules?

It's such a privilege to have Steve share his time and thoughts with everyone. Adds such a special dimension to enjoying the series.

Looking very sharp today, A.P.! Kallor is actually one of my favourite characters (yeah, i tend to like the baddies), he wouldn't be in real life of course but he surely makes for a interesting read. The Battle of the Mules must be one of the most epic scenes in SF/fantasy ever (at least i can't come up with anything more epic than this). And i love Kruppe's voice, i was hooked from the moment we entered Darujistan through his dream in Gardens of the Moon. Great conversation, enjoyed it a lot, thanks!

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

If I can't out tweed the tweed I can just try a different tactic. I really enjoyed Kruppe's voice as the narrator of this one, I would possibly be less inclined to love it if it was the whole series though. That might be a bit much. All the very best to you, and thanks for all the support this year.

Really enjoyed the chat. The mention of Hood's scene in Darujhistan and the comedic subtext made me think about the Death character in Terry Pratchett work. I don't know if Erikson takes inspiration from Pratchett or maybe it's just the monthly python influence hahaha. None the less after this conversation I reread that chapter in a completely different light. Cheers from Mexico

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think Erikson has ever read Pratchett. But there is a long tradition of absurd humour in the UK.

I love The Song of Dreaming (the poem he speaks of as the answer to Toll the Hounds). If anyone doesn't know it and is curious, it's the poem that begins book 3 of Dust of Dreams.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

I am fairly sure that we will be talking about that particular poem.

Cheesedust of Dreams is going to live in my mind forever.

Really interesting to hear the comment from Steve about the city guard with the failing heart. It reminded me a bit about Whiskeyjacks death in that it was perpetuated by men being stubborn about going to the doctor. Kallor gives us some monologue shortly after about compassion not being a replacement for stupidity and nature not being sympathetic. This really shines a light on Hood’s choice, he’s no longer just a force of nature, death incarnate, at this point.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Kallor is a fascinating character whom I am growing more and more intrigued by on this re-read. Thanks for watching.

Been catching up on these discussion since I've only just finished Toll the Hounds. I want to thank all of you for this treasury of insight on these stories. And A.P., thank you for the striking image of this scholar of fantasy adorned in his best suit, with hair neatly tied, sipping gingerly from his Batman mug. I hope it was hot chocolate!

@ACriticalDragon

6 ай бұрын

I am really glad that you have enjoyed the discussions. Thanks for watching. I hope that you have a great new year.

Always love it when Steven jumps on to extrapolate on the earlier discussions.

Very gouda discussion, nacho normal briezy chat.

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

Plenty of cheese dust here, Paul!

@Paul_van_Doleweerd

2 жыл бұрын

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh wait, this was on AP's channel, so I guess you are Cocheese 😂

@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy

2 жыл бұрын

@@Paul_van_Doleweerd 🤣🤣🤣

Thanks to all of you for having this discussion and special thanks to Erikson for writing this incredible book and giving us his time to talk about it.

I chuckled about the whole "cutting yourself with Dragnipur" even if nobody else in the video did. But by the time of Toll the Hounds Rake is probably a little too composed and cerebral for letting that ever happen.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

I saw that theory posted on an old message board a long time ago so I thought I would throw it in.

I love these discussions, and they are a part of my reflecting on the book after I’ve finished it. I especially like Kruppe’s narration throughout this book, he is one of my top 5 favorite characters. That was a bonus for me in this book. Reminded me a little bit of that town crier from the Rome HBO series that would provide narration every so often. I also think Kruppe always steals every scene he is in; I would imagine that his dialogue is a lot of fun to write. Love his showdown with iskaral pust, was a nice bit of humor in an otherwise heavy section of the book.

For the Kruppe and Pust scene it's that great swap and turn around casue for me and I think there is a detail that Kallor wears a red coat ir something and then the Tiste Andii that stands in his path to slow him down. Kallor and Andii brutal fight, grief, reservations about actions, then turn the whole thing around Kruppe red coat and Pust gray and shadowy in a much less epic battle. Ha! Great parallel / reflection. Or perhaps I jsut associate Kallor with red cause of being around Brood and the Crimson Guard way back at hte beginning of the series.

Nice to be this early. This will surely be a great treat! The three of you conversing has never disappointed. I will now enjoy this talk while attending to chores. I wish to send my best, my gratitude, and a happy new year to all three of you.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

A very happy new year to you too. I hope that you enjoyed the discussion.

This is probably my favorite chat you guys have had on these books. So amazing that Steve sits down and talks about this series with you guys. Thanks Steve, A.P, and Philip for this video. It's easy to see while reading this book that toll the hounds had a lot of emotion put into it from Steve. Well done Gents. Also, I never heard the criticism that Erickson can't write romance but it bulls***. The man's on another level with his craft. Don't listen to the hate!!!

A sincere thanks to all 3 of you. This novel helped get me through a lot that I didn't even realize I had been carrying with me for many years. Listening to you lot discuss it couldn't be more valuable to me. Thanks again :)

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much. I am glad that you enjoyed it. These discussions are always illuminating for me too.

This whole video was worth it for Steve's closing joke alone. But also, I love when you three have a chance to get together and talk about these books. Thanks for sharing!

Yes! Love! Omg I am so stoked. Opening minutes SE backed me up from a previous comment.

Oh heck yes

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

I hope you enjoyed this one, Kal. Sorry about the lack of singing.

@ReallyGoodandKind

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon I did indeed. You sound like you’re feeling better. Which is good.

@Paul_van_Doleweerd

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon No need to apologize.. 😁

Do you live without love? Or accept that as a fair trade? That was gem AP.

Wonderful conversation! Someday I will be up to date with these videos. It has everything you need, the artist, the specialist, and the academic fan. It kind reminds me of Dujek's painter and critic!

I'd like to thank all three of you, that was top notch. I now understand how difficult this book must have been to write. And the point Steve made about catharsis though prose or performance was something i hadn't considered before. I think Phil caught you with a zinger at the end there Brad...sorry i mean AP. 😂

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

You are very welcome. Thank you for watching. And yes, my nemesis will suffer for that... mark my words... suffer.

Amazing discussion as always and really awesome to hear from Mr. Lundin and his experience writing the book. I'm really glad we've given this book due justice in these videos. It has really helped me to appreciate the work more and connect with the text. Looking forward to Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God discussions.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

You are very welcome, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for watching.

I love the story of Karsa's liberation of the the traveling slave city on the journey to Darujisthan. More threads to look forward to in future Tales of Witness. These talks are incredible, there is so much in each of these books to discuss, analyze, consider, revisit, etc. Very much looking forward to hearing what you all have to say on Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God, rich texts indeed.

@cameronclaypool9133

2 жыл бұрын

Karsa's conversation with The Captain is one of my favourite moments in the entire series, shows how far he's truly come.

Thank you so much for this, as always of course. A.P. you are looking spiffy! A rival to the elbow-padded tweed? I think so!

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

I have to bust out tweed variants every once in a while, just to keep my nemesis on his toes.

This was wonderful! Especially the first part, with the discussion about grief and death and love. I find that I am unable to talk about that. I mean, sure, I can handle an on the surface conversation, but anyone engaging with me in that would sense the superficiality of it. If I allow myself to have a real conversation about it, things get more intense than i can handle. And I would certainly never do that on camera. I can't even remember when is the last time I allowed myself to genuinly open that door. Seeing you talk about it was a great experience. I also often wish I could have had my interviews with Steve when I first read the books, when the emotions were still raw and intense. I often get hung on things other than the immediate emotional response because that happened so long ago it's almost an afterthought. About your question regarding Anomander, it does have some weight. Rake obviously knew what he had to do. So unless he also knew that Dassem was on his way and that he would try to fight him over Hood's fate, he must have had some plan for how this would go down. Then again, he did have Crone and her ravens to observe the entire world and plan his moment perfectly, so one might assume he knew about Dassem. Lastly, my congrats to Philip for his cheesy comment. Great humor :D

I'm a bit confused about what happens to the moon at the end. What's the cause of the destruction ? A jade statue ? The death of Hood? 🤪 Thanks for your amazing takes on TMBOTF. Very inspiring. I started reading (my signed copy of) Dust Of Dreams today. 🙂

That was excellent. I hope we get Walk in Shadow.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Erikson has said that he is currently writing Walk in Shadow, so I have no doubt that we will get it.

Great vid guys , never heard so many swear words coming from Tweed attired Profs!.

Thanks for the great chat! I was hoping it would come up explicitly at some point, but since it didn’t I’m still wondering why did Erikson say at one point that Toll the Hounds is the cipher to the series? Every book seems to play its own essential role in the tale, so I’m confused about the keystone nature of this one.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Check the discussion around 22 minutes in.

11:24 silent AP. Almost forgot he was there 13:00 and then he gets called out 14:41 now he’s going. Bye Steve by Phillip

A very compelling discussion that was enriching on many levels, but especially for my own creative practice. Thank you, to all three of you for some interesting new insights!

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

You are very welcome. I am glad that you enjoyed it.

Wonderful discussion! I would have never thought of “love” as the main theme of this book though it is inseparable from grief. Someone just recently commented on my TtH discussion video, explaining that to understand certain character motivations and decisions in the book, he recommended spending an investment of time playing GURPS. While I understand much of the worldbuilding and character creations were the result of gaming, I didn’t realize narrative choices in the series were the result of gaming until watching this interview. Now I’m curious how much that is the case in the series and whether you recommend the game for character insights. Thanks!

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Johanna, character generation in RPGs (D&D or GURPS) can be a useful way to think about aspects of characters when you are analysing them, or even for creative writing purposes. Playing RPGs can help give you an understanding of how narrative works, how characters sometimes do not act the way you plan or expect (because they are players) so it is a great way to understand representation of agency within novels, and the tension between plot dictates (the GM's over view of what 'should happen') and character driven action (when players decide to do something completely different to what you have planned, and it might make sense to them, but you think they are crazy). Especially the balance between characters as narrative functions and characters as representation of people. But there is no real reason to play GURPS to solely understand Malazan. Sure some aspects of the general plot were gamed, but you playing GURPS won't reveal those to you. And only some of the narrative choices were as a result of gaming, and even those elements have been changed and adapted to fit the fact that Erikson is using the 'history' of what happened as the initial narrative outline. I think that many people overestimate the closeness of the books to the played games. The games helped create characters and the world. They helped shape the history of the world, but for the most part, the books take things in very different directions because the narrative paradigm is that of a novel, not a game.

@Johanna_reads

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon Thank you for your very thoughtful answer to my question. My assumption and response very much aligned with what you described towards the end of this comment. I only questioned myself after hearing character and gaming decisions discussed halfway through. I intend to play D&D someday if I find the time, and I'll keep all that in mind if I do. That is a very interesting influence-while not the only influence-and I thought you would be the perfect person to ask more about it given your research on the topic. Thanks again and Happy New Year, A.P.!

@EricMcLuen

2 жыл бұрын

@@Johanna_reads Another item on the gaming aspect is that you have a real time editor/critic in the form of the player/GM. Also that the reader doesn't have the option of messing up weeks of planning in about 30 seconds forcing the GM to start improvising, and that is where the beauty of gaming lies.

Wonderful conversation! But I still have a question, maybe for a possible Part Four. What in the name of Kruppe does it means the epigraph of the chapter 7, it's the most strange epigraph of the series, at least for me. :P

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

That is a great epigraph. I always laugh when I read it.

wow..

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Hopefully that was a good 'wow'. All the best to you.

These videos are long. Too long for me to sit and watch. Is there anywhere where these are covered into a podcast? Id love to listen to these.

@ACriticalDragon

2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately no podcast. I think that KZread Premium allows you to download the videos.

@SlowBoBods

2 жыл бұрын

@@ACriticalDragon thankyou.hopefully i can listen on the move.

In the examples of love portion you initiate a very poignant discussion of the Stonny/Harllo thread through the book, but quickly move on. I wanted to hear more! Firstly as I recall in one of your video discussions on Memories of Ice regarding the rape and acute reaction and how it may not age well over time. Tropes, etc. However, Erikson’s showing us the lasting aftermath of the rape in Toll of the Hounds does and certainly will continue to age well. Stonny’s shame/anger/despair/fear which is triggered by seeing or thinking about Harllo is an excellent study on the lasting/generational effects of rape and secual violence. Her inability to recover emotionally from the rape, sadly left to her own devices, and the terrible guilt she feels when Harllo was kidnapped is just devastating. I love that Harllo straight up tells her when he comes “home” that he is here and staying. And her being reluctantly willing was just beautiful. Great writing showing the hope of recovery and the flicker of hope Stonny exhibits. Thanks for the continued videos. Great job. Question: Why did Karsa observe that there was cheating in the Dassem/Rake sword fight? Was it Rake cheating giving Dassem the killing blow? Or did Dassem cheat somehow. Maybe I should just reread it again but I missed it.