I learned something today 👍👍 Somehow I missed this one...caught up now

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 ай бұрын

Lol , no worries 👍

I learned something new.... I had no clue about the web on a split point, I don't encounter them often

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 ай бұрын

I only buy standard grind drills . Cheers 👍

Thanks for this. I just recently bought a split point drill bit because I thought it would be better. It dulled quickly and when I tried to sharpen it- it was worse. Now I know why.

@swanvalleymachineshop

Ай бұрын

No worries 👍

Well I learnt something new from this I just assumed it was an extra grind, no other difference Thanks for sharing

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate .

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

@Tony Wilson Thanks Tony . I think there has been a steady decline in metal / mechanical trades persons . I have always just put it down to the increase in use of computers as well as possibly schools not teaching hands on technical classes , wood work , metal work & technical drawing etc , as was the case in the past . The apprentices we get at work these days have had none of the most basic skills taught at primary & secondary schools . Cheers .

This is the second video that I've seen of yours and I just subscribed. You are full of great information.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate , Cheers .

Really interesting and well done. Thanks Max.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Rob . Cheers .

Wow! I had no idea the webs were so drastically different 🤯. I own a total of 2 split point drills (both kinda on the pricey side) lol. Super glad you shared this before I dulled them🤣. Seems like a very important piece of knowledge, thanks for sharing, Max😁.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate , Cheers .

Great video!! Thank you for sharing!!

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries . Cheers .

G day Max I had the same thoughts as a lot of other people out there until it is explained, 👍 thank you

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries , thanks .

Thanks for teaching me this Max.

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Chris . Cheers .

Great info, thanks

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, learnt something new today

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries Mate , cheers .

Nice vid and explaination on the differences in drill web thicknesses Max. Its something a lot of people wouldn't know about. The thick web drills I call core drills. I have seen European machinists during my younger years off hand split point these drills like they where done in a tool and cutter grinder. Some of those blokes had great skills. Cam

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

You need a sharp corner on the wheel to be able to do it , not to be confused with web thinning . Cheers .

just watching again on the World 'WIDE WEB"...... tells me why I have some drill bits with really wide chisel points [wide webs]....thanks so much Max, Paul from the Other Sunshine State, Florida, USA

@swanvalleymachineshop

Жыл бұрын

Cheers . 👍

Thanks for the info, Max. Play Safe From Elliot Lake Ontario Canada.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries , Cheers .

Gday Max, that’s very interesting, I don’t own or have ever used a split point drill and I certainly haven’t gat a cutter grinder in the corner so I’m glad I learnt about this, thank you Max, excellent video. ATB Matty

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Cheers Mate .

My 750 drill doctor does the split point. And does an awesome job sharpening the drills to 3/32" to 3/4"... it also sharpens masonry bits

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Would be good to have one , but the $$$ have to be put to other tooling & for now i will keep sharpening them the old way i was taught !!! Cheers .

Excellent topic....been bit by it before..thanks for the post

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jim .

Great illustration, Max.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate .

Hi Max. Just found your channel - excellent material. I'm in Perth and it's good to find local content. Well done.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate , Cheers .

@petergoose8164

4 жыл бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop Would it be a long shot to ask if you are a product of the Midland Railway Workshops?

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

@@petergoose8164 No mate , I do have some MT4 drill bits from there though ! Started my time at Woburn railway workshops in Wellington back in 82 .

@carlyleporter5388

Жыл бұрын

Good info source, ain't he?

I had never even heard the term 'wide web' drill. Thanks, mate!

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries . Cheers .

Nice - I often use what we term in this part of the world as "Tip Thining" ie reducing the drill web cross section by extending the cutting edge, rather than secondary relief angle - best done with thin cutting/slitting discs on angle grinders(grinder fixed/drill bit manipulated). Great for drilling plate with hand tools, and no pilot holes.

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

Web thinning works great , but only on std drill bits . Grab a 1/2 '' or 12mm wide web drill bit , grind it flat & see if you can re sharpen it ! Cheers .

Good info Max. I have successfully split points by hand on a pedestal grinder but I am by no means consistent. I'll do it and if it works it works, but it often doesn't. I think it may be easier to split larger bits (which I haven't done) as the surfaces aren't so small and hard to see. Thanks, Ken

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

I usually just back grind by hand to thin the web , but the wide web drills are a different story . Cheers .

That was very cool, thanks for sharing! I was not aware of the difference in web thickness. I guess it makes a tool cutter grinder even more interesting of a tool, too bad they're so stinking pricey!

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

They are expensive & like other machines , they have lots of extra tooling !

Thank you sir!

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 жыл бұрын

No worries . 👍

That is really interesting. I never noticed the difference.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Lucky for tipblitz19 !!! Cheers .

I've tried numerous times to do a split point by hand on the bench grinder and when I go to grind the relief on the back side of the cutting edge I just end up ruining the newly sharpened edge because it always touches the wheel. I'm not buying special jigs and grinders on account of it so I just go with conical bits.

Most drill grinders do have the ability to grind proper 135 split points. Sure, if you insist in grinding bits by hand on a bench grinder, then it can be a hassle to grind properly. But I don’t see the problem. You can get those bit grinders for less than $100 for a machine up to .5” or 13mm. For $175, or so you can go up to .750” or 20mm. That’s cheap enough even for the home shop. They do a pretty good job once you practice a short time. Easier than hand grinding for most people, something I refuse to bother with anymore. And no matter how good one is at hand grinding, you’re never going to get it factory balanced.

@swanvalleymachineshop

Жыл бұрын

I have been meaning to get one for ages ! Sick of hand grinding as well . What a lot of people do not realise when they buy split point drills , there is the standard carrot style web which is the type i go for and the wide bodied parallel web . the wide web's you can not do on an offhand grinder . I can not do them & i have never seen anyone else do it although some claim they can ! The wide bodied drills are for the cnc machines as a throwaway rigid drill bit that can take a lot of feed & drill a true hole . When i get a drill sharpener , i will see how they go . 👍

@melgross

Жыл бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop generally, split point 135-140 bits are labeled as “heavy duty” which is why the thick web. It’s less subject to density variances in the material, which can cause a bit to break a tip, or wander in the material. Really, split points were never intended to be ground by hand, and indeed, manufacturers usually warn to not do that.

In the UK shops, there's goodies and baddies. The goodies are five times the price, but you have to buy five baddies to get a single goodie! Whatever happened to the shops that only sell good ones at 2.5 times the price? Excellent video! :-)

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate , Cheers .

Thanks for being part of the tip blitz max.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries John .

Very nice Max

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks .

Sharpened wide webs still can be used for following pilot drilled holes as long as the wider web chisel is smaller than pilot hole. I can do a decent web thinning on bits larger than 0.250 inch diameter. The extra stiffness greatly helps on stainless.

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 жыл бұрын

They can . I avoid them as it's quicker to do an off hand standard grind on an ordinary bit . 👍

G’day Max, thanks for the heads up on that. My metric drill set from Suttons is of those split points and I was wondering how I’m going to replicate the grind, maybe a good reason to start a tool and cutter build. Cheers Peter

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries Peter . I have a sutton hss metric set that has a small split point feature on a std web profile drill , so they can be sharpened as normal . Unlike my sutton cobalt set ! Cheers .

Thanks!

@swanvalleymachineshop

Жыл бұрын

Cheers . 👍

oh new subscriber here keep up the good work

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks .

Hi Max. I'd appreciate some guidance from your learned self.... Seeking to understand sharpening bits led me to split and standard tip design. My long term general bit set (Sutton Viper) has split points from 12 down to about 5mm then shifts to standard grind. They are also 118 deg not 120 deg as standard jobber bits are. For years these have been acceptable for wood and occasional soft metal. I am doing increasingly more complex and precise projects and enjoying more metal fabrication... so my knowledge has had to expand a lot! I realise now that I cannot simply regrind them without the split point (due to the thick web), though I have taken most to 120deg standard split configuration using a sharpening tool. The Sutton bits are very nice quality however the tool is not very accurate or reliable... thus outcomes are not reliable. For drilling cold rolled steel or non-ferrous in hand drill and drill press, I would think a bit that can be sharpened would be essential even as a hobbyist or home user; I am however, unclear on longevity and if split point or other bits designed to drill faster or more accurately are considered disposable and good value due to an ability to stay sharp and complete thousands of holes in mild steel (for example). As I replace bits or elect to purchase a new set for working metal, what would be your recommendation for an Australian product that is either great out of the box, or great metal, purchasable at a steal of a price and able to be sharpened to a very high quality and retained edge?

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 ай бұрын

I use Sutton Silver Bullet drills for sizes up to 13mm . They are a good set . They make a short series spotting set also , 4 drills in the set . These are used to put a spot dimple in the part for an accurate start position . Cheers 👍

@michaelrobinson9643

2 ай бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop Thank you sir. What do you use for larger holes and moving into hole saws up to about 80mm or 100mm? I see bimetal ones similar to normal wood hole saws.... how do they go over time if cut slow and with cutting fluid? It's a big price step up to the carbide ones like I see mag drills use.

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 ай бұрын

@@michaelrobinson9643 Larger sizes , i use any make because of the cost . I do my best to avoid Chinese ones though ! As for hole saws , i don't really use them very often . If you have a lot of one size hole , buy good quality ones . Generally made in USA .

Good interesting info

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate .

thats pretty interesting Max. didnt know that

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Know you know !!! Cheers .

Twist drills get taken for granted, but each of the features has to have the correct geometry for the drill to perform well. A straightforward workaround for a thick-webbed drill, without a split point or web thinned grind, is to pilot drill the hole just smaller than the web thickness.

@matter9

4 жыл бұрын

Darryl Machtmes why smaller than slightly larger than the web/chisel point thickness?

@tandemwings4733

4 жыл бұрын

@@matter9 I agree with Darryl absolutely. I found at a young age (teens - now 70), that if I did the pilot just smaller that the web, the bit did NOT waffle around at all, resulting in a cleaner and more accurate cut. A procedure I still use.

Good Vid Max My Best Tighe

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks .

Thanks for the info Max. I like the way split point drills work. Just wish I had a better way to grind them. Can't offhand grind them yet, I keep trying though. I'm 90% successful with twist bit grind grinding, or brad point woodwork bit grinding. I've converted a number of drills to brad point and that's quite useful. I have Harold Hall's excellent sharpening book and he makes a distinction between split point, four facet, and web thinned drills, but in all cases the shared aim seems to be to reduce the chisel point width and the drill feed pressure. Seems a decent grinding wheel fixture would be a good poor man's substitute for a tool and cutter grinder. Another thing on the todo list! It should take care of my munted end mills too :-)

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe an angle grinder with a new wheel & secured to a bench , i have not gone that way & i am not going to ! I will set up the T & C grinder to do them one day . Cheers .

Thanks Max, handy to know. Could the dull ones be repurposed into flat bottom drills give the extra rigidity?

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

They could be , no worries .

Interesting information Max. I suppose a badly ground split point will need considerable more force to make it cut into the material, if at all?

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

That's right Tony . Cheers .

I will use a dremel with the thinnest slitter To finish the splitting of the web. it works pretty well but I' hand sharpening so nothing is ever perfect. If it really matters I use a new drill.

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

That's one way to do it . I always try to avoid buying split point wide web drills . Thanks .

Many years ago drills were being sharpened by a method called four facet sharpening. This method ground four flat facets on the drill point instead of the usual method of two gradual curves. I would suggest that split point sharpening is no more than that. One of the benefits of such a method is that it reduces the chisel point on the drill. I find it no more difficult to grind four facets than to judge and grind a curve. Many thanks for the video

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mate , I think for myself grinding on a curve is something i was taught from a young age & it just comes easily . Cheers .

@tandemwings4733

4 жыл бұрын

No John. Four facet is not the same as split point. As you know, four facet does reduce the point, but, it still leaves a dead spot on the web. With split point, the top of the web is sharpened to also cut, leaving no dead spot (if done correctly). As an on-site repair contractor, I do a lot of hand drilling, and those split point bits are insanely good. And - what's this stuff about "many years ago"? (chuckle). I was still using four facet sharpening until I got my Drill Doctor recently. I believe it is still common practice today. The only bits that I didn't normally "four facet", were the little ones I couldn't see properly. Curve grinding did them.

@drjwrg

4 жыл бұрын

By "many years ago" I suggest 1960's or even earlier. I am a long retired hobby user of drills etc so do not have a real use for drills that would require split point sharpened but I would suggest that four facet sharpening would allow these drills to be used and not just discarded.

All these problems go away if you just drill a pilot hole. As you say, split point are designed for production work, extra cost to speed the process. If you are not production, take the time to drill a pilot hole- the quality of the hole will improve, and you will save on drills (the bigger they are, the more they cost...)

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

Dead right there Mike . Cheers .

@Tensquaremetreworkshop

3 жыл бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop But thanks for the information- I now know the jig that Tormak sells (at great cost) only gives you a cross point, not a split point- the yearning has gone away...

Serious food for thought here, Max. I'm another who had no idea. Thanks.

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

I knew they were fat , you don't realise how fat until you grind one flat !!! .

But split point stubs are really great for repetition work as you said. I never use a spot drill with them, just go straight in. I treat them as consumables just like carbide inserts. The fat web must help with their rigidity, I can even use them a little bit sideways to break the sharp edge on the hole. Pretty impractical for the home shop as you say. Great explanation, thank you.

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks mate , cheers .

Thanks Max

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

No worries .

i use a drill doctor- but the groove down from point splitting seems to mess w the chuck alignment

@swanvalleymachineshop

Жыл бұрын

Their is too much mucking around to sharpen them properly . That's my reason for sticking with standard bits , only a few seconds to sharpen . 👍

What should be the size of a pre-drilling drill bit? A little bit bigger than the thickness of the target drill bit web?

@swanvalleymachineshop

20 күн бұрын

Yes , generally that is the minimum . It all varies on the accuracy of the required hole . 👍

@Tome4kkkk

20 күн бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop Thank you! I've just discovered your channel. Great material. One additional question. You seem to have a lot of sympathy for metal shapers. I can't seem to locate the "DIY metal shaper build" article from Popular Mechanics. Have you at least seen it? If not, any DIY shaper projects you could recommend?

Hey Max. There is one other bad thing about Split Point Drills. Which i plan to show in an upcoming video. But you did bring up a very good point that many would Not know. Always good to share the knowledge. Peter.

@matter9

4 жыл бұрын

Peter CCR ENG curious to know of that other downside, still have plans to make that video?

@weldmachine

4 жыл бұрын

@@matter9 Hey Spencer. I did have plans to make a video about the topic you are talking about. Along with many others. But as KZread does nothing to help my business. I need to put more focus on my work and not so much on play, lol. Making video,s does eat up a lot of otherwise productive time. At current the only video,s that i try to make time for, is the. Rebuilding an Old CNC Lathe series of video,s. After i finish this series of video,s i am not sure that i will be posting much after that.

Who knew,,, thanks.

@swanvalleymachineshop

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers .

I like world wide web drills for drilling pilot holes

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Great when they are new ! Cheers .

a lot of people hate the drill doctor sharpeners but the will resharpen the split point drills but i do prefer just a plain HSS drill bit but a good quality one not a chinesium and i love when guys buy a brand new mid grade 118 degree bit and try to drill stainless they drill 1 or 2 holes and the bits done they give it to me i sharpen close to 135 degree and they drill the next 30 or 40 holes with no problem and cant believe a new bit came dull i just laugh

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

I know where you are coming from there ! Cheers .

Is it another case of chicken and egg. Is it they developed the grind which allowed the use of a thicker stiffer web or they had to develop the grind because they wanted a thicker web to be used?

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

It's for production machines , the thicker web makes the drill more rigid . The drill does it's expected number of cycles then tossed away .

@chrisstephens6673

3 жыл бұрын

This video came up as a recommended so I watched it again and a thought occurs. They should still work in a home shop if you pilot drill to the web thickness first, as in stage/incremental drilling.

Drill Doctor may be one affordable option to split a point?

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

Not sure how much a drill doctor can do as i have never used one . Cheers .

@dudleycornman1624

4 жыл бұрын

I haven't used the split tip function yet, so I'm not sure either. It does a pretty good job at just a simple sharpen though. @@swanvalleymachineshop

@pennk4

4 жыл бұрын

I have used the split point function on my Drill Doctor and it does a pretty good job, and easy to do.

@tandemwings4733

4 жыл бұрын

@@swanvalleymachineshop I just bought one. Great bit of gear. The ONLY problem is, that it is s-o-o-o s-l-o-w when sharpening the first time. I've always been able to sharpen bits successfully, but I love "split points", and with the work that I do, they make life a lot nicer. So the little machine is an asset to me.

Must be very rigid. Thanks Max

@swanvalleymachineshop

4 жыл бұрын

They are . Email me & i will send you over a channel sticker . Cheers .

Quorn is not just for vegetarians.

@swanvalleymachineshop

2 жыл бұрын

Lol ! Cheers .