This is so awesome. I've approached my water chemistry with a "think but don't overthink" philosophy for a while, & have really liked the results. This definitely reinforces/vindicates my thoughts on that. Thank you guys so much for sharing!!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the support! -Mike

This is great! I’m pretty new to home brewing, and I’ve had no idea what I’m doing with the salts, just following whatever recipe I’m looking at. Thanks dudes!

This was a great video! Much appreciate the effort and thought process.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

All the thanks go to Mike! I just sat there and drank beer. - John

Loved this knowledge. Thanks guys, always love to hear what you have to share.

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Much appreciated. Cheers! -Mike

Bravo! Bravo! Inspiring me to dial in my process. I'm a sucker for tweaking and tweaking. This summer I'm focusing on simplicity. Keep up the great work!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

My focus in process was the real kicker to get the result I wanted. The water chemistry talk sort of evolved as an outshoot. Both things are good topics for discussion in their own right. -Mike

I absolutely love this type of brew talk. I only worry about mash pH, ratios I never treat my sparge water. Looks like I'm on the right track but the dark malt Iate addition sounds interesting to me

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed the banter! Cheers! -Mike

@DMCSerenity

4 жыл бұрын

Brew Dudes I’m trying to comprehend all of this and let it sink in. So just focus on the mash ph and not the sparg water because after mashing is done the ph doesn’t matter i the kettle? You set the ph in the water prior to adding grain or after adding grain n the mashtun?

Mike in his element. You two are like none other. I'll certainly rewatch this one, and look into Gordon Strongs book . I like the idea of keeping it simple. Thank you, keep up the comradeship.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

You're too kind. Cheers! -Mike

Thanks again guys great show and I love going over your old video`s to learn more cheers

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Sweet! Cheers! -Mike

Great video, Brew Dudes, one that I've watched several times, once for the knowledge, and often for the reminder. “People need to be reminded more often than they need to be instructed.” ― Samuel Johnson

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Tony. Agree with what Samuel said. - John

Great video. You really explained it well. Working on getting my report.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

The best thing that happened to my beers is using bru'n water and RO water. It was night and day difference. I also do e-biab but I sparge with a couple gallons of room temp RO water. I saw some video with the Mad Fermentationist and that is what he does. I took that and ran with it and have zero issues. I can now do 10 gallon batches this way. Also, you are right on those water tables being BS. Cheers! Love the videos.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Theres a lot of BS out there. Maybe we should start doing a couple videos around the BS. So many things we hold dear and view as sacrosanct. Oh well! Cheers! -Mike

Awesome info I been messing with water just having a hard time I will look into this Gordon guy Cheers

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers!

Thanks for the heads up about Brewing Better Beer from Gordon Strong. I just picked up a copy today, it’s brilliant!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Great - We're glad you found our recommendation to be a good one! - John

I use R.O. for brewing because my water is very hard - 350 ppm. I add 8 grams gypsum, 4 grams sodium chloride and 1 gram of Epsom salts. (for APA style).I totally agree about water chemistry being very important. Great video guys! Cheers

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers! - John

Its all about that process.. good video!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Great channel, great info love the philosophy, breaking down the dogma! cheers

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks - we appreciate your time and the comment. - John

This video cured many a problems I have had lately. I used to brew fine before I read too much. Clues for everyone..... - Campden tabs to treat your water before Mash. - Chloride to Sulfate ratio maters in the mash too - Monitor the pH of your wort - Don't give in to the "holy books"! They ruined me big time

@BrewDudes

2 жыл бұрын

Right on and thanks for the comment. - John

Awesome video. Learned a lot.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers! Thanks for the support. -Mike

Bru-N-Water makes water chemistry an easy hurdle to overcome. There is definitely alot of truth in what you dudes say. Keeping it simple is really a great way to approach this subject. You can easily get out of hand I think. Cheers!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

I use Bru-n-water also to help guide my choices for hitting the mash pH. For most of the beers I brew I am starting to build a "feel" for how much acid I'll need in advance. bru-n-water shows me when I'm off track. I do however ignore the settings for things like yellow-malty or brown-bitter. I've always hated the attempt to correlate color to mash pH. There is some general truth to it, but when you're using a calculator its sort of pointless to think of it in reference to SRM. Cheers! -Mike

@WreckedBrewery

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes I've been doing something similar I think. I've only a handful of brews under my belt with regard to water chemistry tweaking and I've never paid a ton of attention to the coloring part in that spreadsheet. I'm trying to get a feel for how I like the taste (aka more chloride or sulfate in that ratio) depending on the style. I'm finding for me, a 3:1 on Sulfate to Chloride is a great place to be to bring out those hops, and maybe near the reverse for my malty beers and stouts. I'm still tinkering with the malty beers. So far I'm at 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate and it's pretty good. Cheers!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers!

Great show again. Hitting that mash pH is so important (I always use lactic acid if needed) . I'm gonna try to alter the balance between malt forward salts and then hop forward salts. Getting an accurate data sheet of your water profile is important so you know what to change and not to exceed maximum levels of salts of any given salt. Gonna rebrew some of my favourite recipes and see if I like the changes.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Right on! I appreciate the experimentation with re-brewing stuff you're familiar with already as a method of refinement and learning! Cheers! -Mike

excellent review my friend. You're like the head Brewer for alltech Brewing Company who now owns Versailles Brewing Company, he's a chemist and experiments with water all the time. Very fascinating my friend.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Ain't no friend like a scientist friend! - John

I think I need to watch this at the start of every brewing season.

@BrewDudes

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, me too. - John

I watched this when it first came out but got sucked in and went down the road of way over complicating water. Lately, I have had a cpl disappointments so I revisited this tonight and reread Gordon Strong’s Brewing Better Beer. I am backing up and rethinking my approach to water based on the simplification presented. I am looking forward to the next brewday with simplified water chemistry based on the Brew Dudes and Gordon’s approach. Cheers to Better Beer.

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

I keep trying to say this as politely as possible; water chemistry in brewing has been largely over emphasized and poorly explained. Just worry about mash pH first. Then worry about experimenting with salt combinations in the kettle later brew to brew to get what you like taste-wise. There is no formula for magic water+style of beer=your palate preference. It's like thinking there is a magic number of tomatoes and shakes of salt to make pasta sauce one way only because that's what they did in Italy 200 years ago. Glad it's starting to click for you. Cheers! -Mike

Couldn't agree more with what you're saying here. I take pretty much the same approach. Acid malt, calcium chloride, & gypsum in the mash to target 5.2, I tend to lean heavier on the chloride, even in hoppy beers. Then I acidify sparge water slightly and that's it. No need to over complicate things! Cheers!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Sounds good to me. Have a plan and a process. Stick to it and good things will happen. Cheers! -Mike

This is really interesting. Just wondering if you've kept this up. Do you do any calculations or ph measurements when adding the flavour water additions to the boil?

I thought water chemistry was gonna be a big hurdle but bru’n water program makes it very easy and it’s made a huge improvement in my beers in the 3 yrs I’ve been using it. I’ve always gone with the trend that the neipa should be made with higher chloride to sulfate I’ve used 2:1 and even 3:1 ratios but just made a neipa at a 1:1 ratio with a ph of 5.3 and I think it’s my best one yet. Water chemistry is a great way to change your beer without even changing the process and to clarify I use RO water and just adjust the minerals if I want to try so,etching different.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Experimentation and the willingness to rebrew something with different parameters is by far more empowering than just plugging and chugging one time with a calculator/spreadsheet. Glad its working out for you! Cheers. -Mike

This is a big help..I have been trying to learn water chemistry but too much info i feel is a bad thing

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Keep it simple and everything will be alright! Cheers! -Mike

I needed this thank you

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

You're welcome! - John

Interesting thought about denaturing enzymes with the direct heat source. I use a sous vide cooker for biab which also acts as a direct heat source. I wonder if that has the same effect on conversion. Thanks for the video guys

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

I think the sous vide is milder than my direct fired mash tun on the base. but its something to experiment with for sure. Cheers! -Mike

Quick question. Great channel btw. I was led to believe that vigorous pouring of water or leaving it overnight would get rid of chlorine. Thoughts? I have no idea how to properly measure mybph.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

We have started to add Campden tablets to our water to remove the chlorine smell and flavor from our water. Try that - it involves less planning/effort. - John

Sneaky beer steal, he didn't even notice!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Ha - John

@SyBernot

4 жыл бұрын

He knew it was coming 19:07

This whole issue of maintaining constants to simplify and try to play with fewer variables is why I bought a Grainfather - same process every time, timing and heating are automated so I can concentrate on everything else. Mind you I'm in NZ on 220v, not sure I would do the same if I were in the US.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

That is certainly one of the best reasons to own one of those systems; consistency. Cheers! -Mike

Who doesn't like black pepper in their clam chowder? Great video, guys! Cheers!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Heretics! -Mike

This is a great video. Kind of funny, ironically, making a scientific process and engineering your brewday to be more simple... lol I'm not there yet, I'm doing allgrain but I'm not playing with water chemistry yet. My water comes out of the hill, I'm just brewing with what I've got for a while to dial it in, and then later I'll try to perfect the chemistry stuff.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

Good place to start. Tune your all grain process first then you can focus on things like water chemistry. - John

This was a fantastic video, thanks so much. I am regretting not splurging for the PH reader a few days ago. If you guys can suggest a good quality one for a good price i would appreciate it. I think PH and mash chemistry is the biggest thing i need to get a handle on for my beer as well. Then at least any other issues are easier to diagnose.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

I wish we had a recommendation for a pH meter. We have one that was sent to us. - John

Awesome vid. All your stickers are upside down 🤣

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

It's all how you look at the stickers, I guess. They look right side up when the laptop is closed - Ha. - John

I love the video. Not sure if simplified is appropriate however. Still seems complicated.i have v hard water. For stout I use 100% tap. For lager I use 100% bottled that I know is soft. For everything in between I estimate a mixture of bottled and tap water depending on grain bill.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

I can be as complex as it needs to be. But when it gets overwhelming the only thing that matters is hitting that mash pH. I think if most people just learned how to do that they could worry much less about water. Cheers! -Mike

I am looking to get more involved with my water. Do you recommend the Ward labs test still? Should I consider a water test kit instead? Also, how do you determine your salt levels in the kettle to determine how to adjust? Thanks guys.

@thejohndis

4 жыл бұрын

I would do the Ward Labs test. For $40 you can’t go wrong! Regarding which salts to add, plug your numbers into Bru n Water or beersmith or EZ Water Calculator and pick a profile to match. It will tel you what salts to add.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

Yes - we got a Ward Labs test too and we were happy with the results. Go for it. - John

Mashing with base grains only, seems brilliant. Would you wait until conversion is complete before adding crystal etc., and for how long?

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Yes. Google top mashing. I have played with jsut the base malt. Then during the last 20minutes of the mash you add the dark malts on top and start circulating the malt. I've done a few stouts this way and you go from a yellow wort to dark wort. -Mike

@mrdespizeme

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes I've actually seen it done, and I've done it making a stout, but only with my dark grains. Heard it was more for not introducing astringency. Can't believe I never thought to do it with even the light crystals.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I guess if the grain doesn't need to be mashed, then it can be just steeped. - John

@michaeltoner1993

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes So using this method you would just calculate your mash pH (and necessary additions) based on the base malts only?

@christophermarino7387

2 жыл бұрын

This is a method Mike McDole talked about around 10 years ago. I’ve been following it for the last decade.

I filter with a fridge based carbon filter and leave the water sit in the kettle overnight to fully off gas. I know our tap water has chlorine not chloramine, so that 'should' be sufficient. Do you account for the added minerals in your campden tab on the Bru'n water excel sheet?

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Mike has been using RO or distilled water in his quest of better water chemistry. Is there an easy way to calculate the minerals the Campden tablet imparts or do you have to calculate it yourself? - John

@tylerb6081

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes Did some digging. No input in Beersmith2. Martin's Bru'n water notes mention adding "3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride." So probably small amounts not to be concerned about in homebrew scale.

So to me it sounds like you are just making a profile of hoppy, balanced, malty to fit your local water and just applying that profile to the flavor/ taste to the style. Is that correct?

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

That's the gist of it. Pretty much adjusting the water chemistry to adjust flavor in the packaged beer. - John

So if I understand correctly you add the salts to the water, add the grains then adjust ph??

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

I never adjust the pH. Reason being is that once you sample the wort and take a pH measurement 80+% of the mash/enzyme activity is done. Once you calculate what you need to add to correct the mash pH 90+% of the mash is done. Despite the fact that we all mash for 60minutes most mash chemistry (even with poor water chemistry) is done in the first 20 minutes. I use calculators to tell me how to hit the correct pH based upon the grain bill and the water being used. I add the right amount of salts to my strike water to get the right mash pH. I ignore pre-mash any sense of water profile mythology about locations and beer styles. Once I've mashed and collect my wort I'll then add what I need to create a water profile that I want whether its a hop forward profile or a malt forward profile. Again, I still almost entirely ignore what some ancient text said about the water profile of a city that a given style is best known for. Hope that helps. Cheers. -Mike

I use salts with some aciduated malt to bring my Ph down and now wonder is it really necessary using the salts whereas i maybe could just use the aciduated malt on its own.Interesting video as always but really got me thinking..👍

@copsarebastards

5 жыл бұрын

Any idea how much acidulated malt is commonly desired? I just bought a small amount for a kettle sour, but am just in the beginning of figuring out ph and the other aspects, since it's only my second or third all grain beer.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Well the way I see it... you're going to need some salt in there anyway. My water is low in calcium as required by the yeast for good ferment. So I think using some calcium salt for part of the adjustment makes sense. That way I am not getting too crazy with the acid addition to make the mash pH happen. Then in the kettle I'll balance out any sulfate to chloride ratio I am striving for. But the important thing always is not to just blindly follow some authors idea or even two weird dudes on YT. The point I am trying to make is to learn for oneself, adapt and apply based on what works for you. Cheers! -Mike

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

I have seen a chart somewhere referencing that a certain amount of acid malt will drop the pH by some fraction of a point. I just couldn't find it at the moment. I'll post it if I ever find it again. But its still important to realize that every grain bill and different source water will be different and in turn the amount of acid malt will be different per beer and per brewer's local water. There is no magic one size answer. Cheers! -Mike

You dudes speak the truth! Iv heard before (KISS) keep It Simple Stupid I totally agree mash temps within a range is close enough! Hope to see more of this info from you guys What books do you dudes recommend? Cheers & Brew On

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

We will keep at it. More water talk to come. Especially if people want it. Cheers! -Mike

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Some of my favorite books right now is the Brewing Better Beer by Gordon Strong. I also really like the New Lager Brewing by Greg Noonan (its a bit dated but its very good). I think Water is an OK book but its pretty in depth and quite frankly again overly complicated. Its a better advanced read when you're feeling real good about your water practice already. -Mike

@kennygraley824

5 жыл бұрын

Brew Dudes Mike Thanks for the info & reply! I have the water book, it’s a tough read lol. It can be WAY to much at times. More water more better haha Cheers

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

True that - John

Are the proper pH values you quote measured at room temperature or mash temperature?

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

If Mike's talking about the pH of the mash, then it's mash temperatures.

And I did make a comment on the last video u guys may be talking about that the ph or water chemistry was maybe an issue so maybe I was said person u were talking about in this video.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Right on!

So do you worry about total amount of salts at all with the mash? If your given style says only up to 200 of chloride or sulfate for example do you just stop when you are close and finish the ph with acid? I'm doing full volume no sparge biab so my mash chemistry is normally my wort chemistry.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Personally, I think you should ignore those style guidelines for water. Yes, use some salts and a combination of acid to get the right mash pH. Then worry about the flavor profile. It seems to me that if I focus on 150ppm of calcium total as the base I then construct the chloride or sulfate ratios around that. If I think the beer still could use an assist from water chemistry then I'll up or down the ratio for next time. Cheers! -Mike

@JimmyJusa

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes thank you, i normally keep my chloride or sulfate towards the bottom end, I'll look more at the calcium and hit 150ppm on my next brew and look at the ratios.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Cheers!

@timothy4

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes Is that 150ppm total of both Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride combined or just one or the other; if so which one? I find it a bit confusing talking about Calcium when Chloride and Sulphate are both Calcium salts or maybe I am just getting lost in my own confusion :)

I wish I had the money to spend / waste these guys do! But I do love the videos.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

It keeps us out of trouble. - John

Part 2. Please!

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

What would you like to know specifically? We may have a video for that. - John

I like how the host is looking around like, "I'm so over my head"

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

It's complex.

Do you use water chemistry on the sparge water?

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Not necessarily but sometimes. I depends on what I am doing and the end goal. If I know I am adding salts in the kettle then I don't mess around adding salts in the liquor tank. But if my recipe won't call for that kind of addition I adjust all the water at once in the HLT and call it good. Cheers! -Mike

@Rubio_Eric

3 жыл бұрын

@@BrewDudes thanks man!

I just use RO water, adjust water ph for the grain I’m mashing, adjust the mash ph for the yeast I’m using. That’s all I have to say about that.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

And that's sometimes all that needed! Cheers! -Mike

As a pro brewer, I think the general move is to set water chemistry profile in the mash to achieve a goal in the finished beer (e.g. Calcium is lost throughout the brewing/fermentation process), and use lactic/phosphoric acid to hit mash pH and then wort cooling (into fermenter) pH by pre-boil kettle addition. Using salts to try and hit optimal pH at each point can be very difficult.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

I agree and this is a wonderful comment. pH is pH really. Getting it right is the priority and using acid to get there is really al that is necessary. However, the homebrewing community is hard to let go of some very long established tomes of text that have created a concrete concept of how to go about getting mash pH in the right place. I was trying to point out there is a simpler way of doing it. Certainly your approach is right in line with trying to simplify the process. Thanks for the perspective you have offered. Cheers! -Mike

great

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

9:55 "Can I get an amen!"

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

Amen!

Holy cats dudes. Its as if you read my mind. This video is fantastic.

@BrewDudes

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Greg - John

I installed water carbon filter, this filters out chlorine, made a massive difference to taste of water.

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent!

I have read a lot about not "chasing" mash pH. I also did the campden tabs in my tap water. I was still getting poor results. My beers COMPLETELY WITHOUT A DOUBT have take a turn towards perfection when I changed my water. Rather than using tap water or even spring water, I now use distilled for my entire batch. I add salts to the strike water only. Unfortunately I am using some premeasured salts from my LHBS to promote either hoppy or balanced as they sell them. I am absolutely blown away by my 3 recent batches after adopting this. My new pH meter was dead on 5.4 for the first batch I tested with it, a lighter style. I would only be concerned with mash pH on dark beers, in which case I will add phosphoric. What I wish you talked more about was what to add to adjust the water. It's very confusing.

@BrewDudes

5 жыл бұрын

It is confusing but we can do follow ups for sure on the additions. -Mike

@copsarebastards

5 жыл бұрын

This is really interesting, I've read people discouraging the use of distilled water, but i don't know enough about water chemistry to get why or remember why.

@patricksmith4658

5 жыл бұрын

@@copsarebastards *Distilled +salts. Distilled = RO as far as I'm concerned. The reason to start with distilled or RO is that you are starting with a blank palate. You would NEVER brew with distilled/RO without mineral additions.

Dude, just mash really hot and get all the sugar out. Cool it, and add amylase.

@BrewDudes

3 жыл бұрын

Mash real hot and get the starch out then convert with amylase I suppose could work. Interesting idea. Cheers! -Mike