Simple MOTOR without Magnets and without a Core

Тәжірибелік нұсқаулар және стиль

This motor has a very high current consumption (about 10 A), so it's unlikely you will be able to repeat it.

Пікірлер: 154

  • @grain-diose
    @grain-diose6 жыл бұрын

    This motor has a very high current consumption (about 10 A), so it's unlikely you will be able to repeat it.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    After 2 minutes of battery life, the batteries were warm around 40 degrees Celsius. A motor without iron cores is very inefficient - most of the energy is converted into heat. With core in the coils, the energy is converted into a magnetic field and also the coils are much less heated.

  • @Grazey

    @Grazey

    6 жыл бұрын

    grain why is iron used and what particle makes up a magnetic field?

  • @axnbjsbdudbydvydubu9355

    @axnbjsbdudbydvydubu9355

    6 жыл бұрын

    is it necessary to be laminated ? your cores are not laminated and yet the motor spins and it's very powerful. can someone build a powerful(practical) motor with a solid core without laminations ? also is it necessary that the coils in the armature to be wound in opposite directions ?

  • @mihirpandya5475

    @mihirpandya5475

    6 жыл бұрын

    How to remove layer of copper coil??

  • @magnuswootton7368

    @magnuswootton7368

    6 жыл бұрын

    they are laminated, well the wires are anyway. about winding the armature backwards, depends on your design. sometimes its good sometimes its not, depends what you need.

  • @tolga24
    @tolga246 жыл бұрын

    Another brilliant project :)

  • @stevenmayhew3944
    @stevenmayhew39443 жыл бұрын

    That's a universal motor, meaning that it runs on AC or DC. On AC, the stators fluctuate, but so does the power to the commutator, and so it evens out how the relative polarities of the rotor coils still fluctuate as though still running on DC. Try running it on a small power transformer.

  • @christmassnow3465
    @christmassnow34656 жыл бұрын

    Always wondered how it will respond if you spin it in the opposite direction, and how they always return to their normal spin!

  • @magnuswootton7368
    @magnuswootton73686 жыл бұрын

    your video is the best. onya grain. :) "simplEST" motor!

  • @lrg3834
    @lrg38343 жыл бұрын

    A rotor made of permanent magnets and a coiled stator is a superior design, as no commutator is required, which means less friction and wear.

  • @k-osmonaut8807

    @k-osmonaut8807

    2 жыл бұрын

    It's a trade off, one with electromagnets can have much more torque

  • @gerarddugas6224

    @gerarddugas6224

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@Anne6621 You are seeing the model and dreaming. The guy has helped you "dream up " An important skill to teaching. Not a crime, a GIFT.......

  • @a.ielimba78

    @a.ielimba78

    Жыл бұрын

    @@k-osmonaut8807 Watch this video, a guy discovered anti gravity kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZWiAmciMmq7IocY.html shape has power, he learned from rare metallic beetles.

  • @sudipbanerjee6285
    @sudipbanerjee62855 жыл бұрын

    If I fixed axel and alowed outer coil to move will it move in opposite direction?

  • @MsJaffal
    @MsJaffal6 жыл бұрын

    nice motor . you can reduce its high current consumption by Increasing the Number of turns and reducing the diameter of the wire .

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Yes, you need to increase the inductance of the coils.

  • @marioulrich8085
    @marioulrich80853 жыл бұрын

    What is the diameter of the ball bearing and the wooden rod?

  • @baticadavinci3984
    @baticadavinci39842 жыл бұрын

    That's straight up magic!!!

  • @a.ielimba78

    @a.ielimba78

    Жыл бұрын

    Watch this video, a guy discovered anti gravity kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZWiAmciMmq7IocY.html shape has power, he learned from rare metallic beetles.

  • @honeybadger2371

    @honeybadger2371

    7 ай бұрын

    It's not magic, it's science

  • @gingerbread1032
    @gingerbread10324 жыл бұрын

    What do you call a coil that is wound in in both directions simutainously.

  • @LuisRodriguez-wg4yc
    @LuisRodriguez-wg4yc6 жыл бұрын

    Se puede utilizar un transformador para hacerlo un Corriente alterna

  • @magnuswootton7368
    @magnuswootton73686 жыл бұрын

    Would switching on and off the outer coils make it run better? (because of electrical difference, instead of just constant dc.) this is happening on the central coils, but would it go better if you switched both on and off? - it would still need the spin start tho- before it starts relaying. (but note youd have to fix the commutator to try... ill give it a go myself and report back to zoltan! :)

  • @magnuswootton7368

    @magnuswootton7368

    6 жыл бұрын

    nah im wrong... i looked it up - its just constantly there. unless its a little more powerful when it first touches, but i doubt it - so it is a bad speculation.

  • @anjhindul

    @anjhindul

    5 ай бұрын

    It can run better-ish. Look up series wound dc motor. Careful, they like to go boom.

  • @aishwaryas5988
    @aishwaryas59885 жыл бұрын

    When we pass the current to one coil does the one coil get turn into electromagnet using high volt battery I.e 9v

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    yes

  • @swapnilpdhage
    @swapnilpdhage2 жыл бұрын

    How the connection of windings of 100x3

  • @arjunhaldar8313
    @arjunhaldar83136 жыл бұрын

    very nice next n texla

  • @yk-jt2ph
    @yk-jt2ph6 жыл бұрын

    tumhare video 📹 to bahot ache hote hain par pata nahi ki 600 se ziada likes q nahi milte

  • @After_Tech_Industries
    @After_Tech_Industries3 жыл бұрын

    current specs: 10a, ~3v to wire's volt rating, Three 100 turn coils, Two 100 turn coils, 2 ball bearings, Rotor: delta configuration, Stator: parallel config.

  • @After_Tech_Industries

    @After_Tech_Industries

    3 жыл бұрын

    also1; if you use thinner wires w/ more windings per coil it will reduce current and lower minimum operating voltage (aka; faster spin and less amps) also2; what size wire did you use?

  • @roidroid

    @roidroid

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@After_Tech_Industries (i see them reply in another comment) "Wire 0.4-0.5 mm"

  • @alexeleskandrany7719
    @alexeleskandrany771910 ай бұрын

    can we use this idea to make a generator with no magnets?

  • @akvadevays
    @akvadevays6 жыл бұрын

    Хорошо придумал переименовать в импортное название ! Видео ничего особенного, а 24 тыс просмотров. Браво !

  • @harridaredevil2781
    @harridaredevil27816 жыл бұрын

    hey there can somebody explain what will happen if we increase the number of turns of a coil in a motor i:e from 20 turns to 80 turns? i mean will i rotate fast? or will it will have more torque??

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    I think you will not get a motor without magnets. Do this motor - kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWeKvLCalZzQetI.html

  • @qiangchen4417

    @qiangchen4417

    5 жыл бұрын

    I think it gets more torque because brushless motors have higher KV (rpm per volt) and low torque with weak magnet and low KV and high torque with strong magnets.

  • @Thesupperals
    @Thesupperals2 ай бұрын

    the current problem is with the Commutator. Too much friction is going on.

  • @dharmaramkhuriwal351
    @dharmaramkhuriwal3516 жыл бұрын

    super motor

  • @AlialiAli-xg9hx
    @AlialiAli-xg9hx5 жыл бұрын

    Great

  • @kenzostaelens1688
    @kenzostaelens16885 жыл бұрын

    could it be possible to turn this thing into a generator(since you are using electromagnets you can probably feed a part of the generated energy back into them and extract the rest)?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    This energy is negligible.

  • @kenzostaelens1688

    @kenzostaelens1688

    5 жыл бұрын

    @@grain-diose not that i don't beleave you but may i see the math behind it?

  • @roidroid

    @roidroid

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@kenzostaelens1688 It is possible, but they are complicated to self-start: You must first INDUCE voltage in the coils from an outside source to create a magnetic field, otherwise there's no magnetic field and you're just pointlessly spinning some non-energized coils past eachother without them interacting in any way. It's been a while since i've read about this sortof thing, but i believe this is what happens in a "switched reluctance generator". Or at least it's an adjacent concept?

  • @liviomagnoalves8451
    @liviomagnoalves84516 жыл бұрын

    I think you should use thinner wire with more turns. That wire is too thick to such low voltage suplly. Can you please send the details about the wire conections?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Wire 0.4-0.5 mm

  • @ivanpaypa3295
    @ivanpaypa32956 ай бұрын

    perhaps it needs a capacitor to eliminate hand cranking?

  • @KokoroDenshin
    @KokoroDenshin Жыл бұрын

    for better efficiency rotor coils should be lower gauge wire/thinner? because it will use less current?

  • @KokoroDenshin

    @KokoroDenshin

    Жыл бұрын

    Because i was thinking to build non-permanent magnet generator, looking at how car alternator design, the coil to magnetize the rotor used very thin copper wire compare to the stator coils.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    Жыл бұрын

    @@KokoroDenshin For efficiency, the cross section of the winding does not play a role. Or rather: more voltage - more turns and thinner wire, less voltage - fewer turns and thicker wire. Accordingly: a) less current, b) more current. As a result, both options have equal power. The actual efficiency will be determined by the design and materials: bearings, molds, brushes, etc. In the case of non-permanent magnets, the material and design of the electromagnet cores will play an important role. In general, standard motor designs have long been developed, can be studied and used.

  • @DrDan-kt2tq
    @DrDan-kt2tq6 жыл бұрын

    M confused ! Coil did work without iron core / conductor ( i mean the poles) Yes / no Answer please

  • @EdwardTriesToScience

    @EdwardTriesToScience

    3 жыл бұрын

    the coil itself has enough magnetic field, iron core just makes it stronger

  • @BullyAC
    @BullyAC6 жыл бұрын

    more interesting is a motor without magnets, but also without brushes

  • @santoshsd1694

    @santoshsd1694

    5 жыл бұрын

    There is Brush ,see

  • @johnthomas1586
    @johnthomas1586 Жыл бұрын

    are the coils in series or paralell, and is there a reason for it?

  • @prerupa

    @prerupa

    8 ай бұрын

    yes. you can use it in ac if it was in series pattern.

  • @shilpisarkar9675
    @shilpisarkar96752 жыл бұрын

    Can we use direct current from our switchboard at our house to turn this motor? Please anybody answer me

  • @a.ielimba78

    @a.ielimba78

    Жыл бұрын

    Watch this video, a guy discovered anti gravity kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZWiAmciMmq7IocY.html shape has power, he learned from rare metallic beetles.

  • @diegorgzm
    @diegorgzm6 жыл бұрын

    Cool proyect, But If you say that 100 turns produce 10A, 200 turns will produce 5A? (Increase turns, and reduce the diameter of wire reduces the current) Ah, hm the coils can be replaced by two magnets?...that's all...thanks

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Yes, if the coils have more revolutions, the current is less, since the inductance of the coil increases, and accordingly the resistance increases accordingly. The voltage here is constant, but the current is interrupted, so here the inductance resistance works just like in alternating current. But your assumption is incorrect, therefore, the resistance not only on the number of turns but also on frequency, coil diameter, wire diameter, coil length, number of coil layers, winding method. In a word, you can theoretically calculate everything, there is a program for calculating the coil inductance, but it will be approximately, and after that you need to determine the current. Better not even try it. :) That is, I will not even tell you approximately how the current will change if you change 100 turns per 200 turns. About the replacement of stator coils with magnets, the answer is unambiguous: magnets are much simpler and more efficient! This option without magnets and cores I did as an experiment only. But the efficiency of such a motor is very low: large consumption and low recoil. The most effective of my options is here - kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWeKvLCalZzQetI.html In general, this option is used in many DC collector motors.

  • @diegorgzm

    @diegorgzm

    6 жыл бұрын

    grain thanks! This helps a lot, I'll do my best

  • @marioulrich8085
    @marioulrich80853 жыл бұрын

    how much copper wire?, the diameter of the ball bearing?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    3 жыл бұрын

    It's not fundamental

  • @iliegheorghe5709
    @iliegheorghe57096 жыл бұрын

    which is the diameter of the coils, stator and rotor

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Without iron and magnets, the motor is very inefficient, I do not advise you to try and repeat it. Most likely your motor will not rotate. It's better to repeat this - kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWeKvLCalZzQetI.html

  • @HavardEleonorenonore33
    @HavardEleonorenonore336 жыл бұрын

    Howww i want make everything withs proffesseurs

  • @ratishpatil4582
    @ratishpatil45824 жыл бұрын

    If a brush/universal motor isnt self exiting,how worse can things get

  • @mintudoku9375
    @mintudoku93755 жыл бұрын

    How do they generate electric... without magnet...... or can this motors of yours generate power

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    Everything happens the opposite: electricity produces induction currents that move the rotor of the motor. But without iron cores, the motor is very inefficient, its efficiency is very low. This motor takes a very large current and heats up quickly. If you want to do, I recommend this model to you - kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWeKvLCalZzQetI.html

  • @knezderpe1254

    @knezderpe1254

    4 жыл бұрын

    By electromagnet ,current is passing trought laminated wires and creating electromagnetic field

  • @nicolefrancia7728
    @nicolefrancia77283 жыл бұрын

    so DC motors can be powered electronically without magnets?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    3 жыл бұрын

    It is ineffective, especially without an iron core. But more often motors are made with electromagnets, look at the motor of your electric drill.

  • @Xx-xd3zo
    @Xx-xd3zo3 жыл бұрын

    How well would this work as a generator? Love it doesn't use magnets...

  • @alexwang982

    @alexwang982

    11 ай бұрын

    None

  • @mateibanea7354
    @mateibanea7354 Жыл бұрын

    it is a motor because the copper wires and battery make a magnet and with magnet u can make a motor

  • @luqmanrashid1651
    @luqmanrashid16515 жыл бұрын

    i think this is an induction motor. you need a capacitor to boost the current and start the motor

  • @EdwardTriesToScience

    @EdwardTriesToScience

    3 жыл бұрын

    not induction motor, it is a brushed dc motor but uses electromagnets instead of permanent magnets. the pink tubes are batteries

  • @stevenburton4966

    @stevenburton4966

    3 жыл бұрын

    I thought in order to generate a magnetic field you need ac current? I'm trying to understand what's going on here?

  • @EdwardTriesToScience

    @EdwardTriesToScience

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@stevenburton4966 Nope, DC will also generate a magnetic field, with AC the north and south alternate since the voltage is alternating, you use AC for a transformer, an electromagnet will work on DC

  • @EdwardTriesToScience

    @EdwardTriesToScience

    3 жыл бұрын

    You can test it out by winding some wire (around 50 turns) on a screw and connecting both ends to a battery [ + to one wire and - to the other wire] (batteries put out DC) and try to stick paperclips to it

  • @stevenburton4966

    @stevenburton4966

    3 жыл бұрын

    @@EdwardTriesToScience okay, so only the changing pulse can induce a current in another coil for a transformer, but dc can create a magnet with static poles?

  • @cxlxu
    @cxlxu6 жыл бұрын

    Cool man! Can three outer coils make it faster?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    I can be wrong, but I think in this case you need 4 coils to do. As far as I understand, the stator and the rotor are better to have a different number of coils for a better independent start. But for speed, it is not the number of coils that is important, more the current in these coils. That is, there must be a thicker wire and fewer turns. Of course the battery should give a lot of current too.

  • @TechsScience

    @TechsScience

    6 жыл бұрын

    The outer coil acts as magnet & it don't needs to be more in numbers it should have large magnetic field to provide more force.

  • @windpowerandmore6310

    @windpowerandmore6310

    6 жыл бұрын

    nice job , actually more turns with the same type of wire with make your motor more powerful and consume less current

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Wind Power And More Perhaps you are right, in other words - we need to increase the inductance of the coils.

  • @windpowerandmore6310

    @windpowerandmore6310

    6 жыл бұрын

    yeah , in doing so your magnetic field will be stronger, again nice work ,I like to watch !

  • @razin275
    @razin2753 жыл бұрын

    What is that box?

  • @EdwardTriesToScience

    @EdwardTriesToScience

    3 жыл бұрын

    its two 3.7 volt batteries so its powered off of 7 volts

  • @whatsup_viral
    @whatsup_viral5 жыл бұрын

    Can i connect this to ac current 230 volt?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    No, a short circuit will occur and the automatic switch on your electrical panel will turn off the electricity in your apartment.

  • @aishwaryas5988
    @aishwaryas59885 жыл бұрын

    How much volt 🔋 does it comsume

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    The current is important here and it is quite large, about 2 amperes. I don’t remember the voltage, because I connected a power supply with an adjustable voltage. Probably 5-10 volts. A motor without cores is not very effective, I do not advise you to repeat it. Do it better - kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWeKvLCalZzQetI.html

  • @aishwaryas5988

    @aishwaryas5988

    5 жыл бұрын

    When we pass the current to one coil does the one coil got turn into electromagnet

  • @EnergySeeker
    @EnergySeeker4 жыл бұрын

    can the core be aluminum ? can a generator have an aluminum core ?

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    4 жыл бұрын

    No, only from iron, steel.

  • @EnergySeeker

    @EnergySeeker

    4 жыл бұрын

    nanocrystal or metalglass?

  • @shaik.ismailshariff4160
    @shaik.ismailshariff41606 жыл бұрын

    You have not showing detailed wiring information or instructions

  • @colinbergmann5750

    @colinbergmann5750

    5 жыл бұрын

    Yeah, but he put how-to music over it, so he's good.

  • @frankowalker4662

    @frankowalker4662

    4 жыл бұрын

    You don't want to make this, it's a fire hazzard! The batteries will over-heat/leak or explode!!! LOL.

  • @learneveryone6271
    @learneveryone62715 жыл бұрын

    Sir without card board

  • @suzyeon4222
    @suzyeon42222 жыл бұрын

    does it run on AC supply?

  • @suzyeon4222

    @suzyeon4222

    2 жыл бұрын

    sorry im just a beginner

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    2 жыл бұрын

    @@suzyeon4222 No, it's only for DC

  • @a.ielimba78

    @a.ielimba78

    Жыл бұрын

    @@suzyeon4222 Watch this video, a guy discovered anti gravity kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZWiAmciMmq7IocY.html shape has power, he learned from rare metallic beetles.

  • @jebolandutawacana
    @jebolandutawacana6 жыл бұрын

    Grain i think you better change your profile picture because minion character is owned by pixar. I dont want you have problem from youtube regarding your profile picture. believe your channel can go bigger.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    Thank you, I myself think to change. Probably it's better to change the photo of your own face, I think.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    I changed. The logo should change after a while.

  • @jebolandutawacana

    @jebolandutawacana

    6 жыл бұрын

    wow.. thank for your reply. pardon im not good at English. im from indonesia.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    I have the same English, I write through an interpreter. I am from Moldova.

  • @jebolandutawacana

    @jebolandutawacana

    6 жыл бұрын

    yes an interpreter is very helpful. i dont use it because i use computer in internet cafe. so i dont always online.

  • @user-vh6zt7ty3b
    @user-vh6zt7ty3b9 ай бұрын

    ok

  • @user-eg7vr9kl9e
    @user-eg7vr9kl9e6 жыл бұрын

    ладно👍

  • @user-ds5hn3vj9w
    @user-ds5hn3vj9w3 жыл бұрын

    यह मोटर आप कैसे बना इसका पूरा वीडियो मुझे कनेक्शन का दिखाइए

  • @prerupa
    @prerupa8 ай бұрын

    coiled stator motor.

  • @user-kw5en3lz2i
    @user-kw5en3lz2i6 жыл бұрын

    Try to raise the voltage, I wonder until what moment it will work properly.

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    I wrote already: after 2 minutes of battery life, the batteries were warm around 40 degrees Celsius. Voltage dropped, current 10 amperes! I do not want to spoil my dear batteries 18650 :)

  • @Graeme_Lastname
    @Graeme_Lastname3 жыл бұрын

    Sorry, coils with current flowing are magnets. No core = low efficiency.

  • @brazilcreative1063
    @brazilcreative10636 жыл бұрын

    Like Brazil creative. Fortaleza Ceará

  • @albertjai5735
    @albertjai57353 жыл бұрын

    Seems mahle using this way to produce their electric motor

  • @kinleytwangdi7019
    @kinleytwangdi70192 жыл бұрын

    Electromagnet isn't working...How can aquire stronger magnetic force...

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    2 жыл бұрын

    Use an iron core.

  • @binderdaniel566
    @binderdaniel5663 жыл бұрын

    Can you Send me one of this i Pay Money How much do you Want ?

  • @timvj9808
    @timvj98085 жыл бұрын

    Misleading title, its impossible to have a motor without magnets. The coils are acting as electromagnets which causes the rotation. What the title SHOULD have said is "without Permanent magnets".

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    The word "magnet" means a permanent magnet. Electromagnet and magnet are different things. I think the title is correct.

  • @timvj9808

    @timvj9808

    5 жыл бұрын

    "A magnet is a material or *object* that produces a magnetic field", i.e. anything that causes a magnetic field is a magnet, but not any magnet is a permanent magnet. (definition was directly from wikipedia)

  • @DreamingConcepts

    @DreamingConcepts

    5 жыл бұрын

    @@timvj9808 regardless of its official definition, people generally understand by magnet a permanent magnet, and by a coil acting as a electromagnet, people think exactly about that: a coil acting as electromagnet.

  • @timvj9808

    @timvj9808

    5 жыл бұрын

    @@DreamingConcepts Yes that is fair enough for that to be the way you see it. I, however, clicked on this video because the title _technically_ said no magnets of any kind, which I knew to be impossible. So your explanation will apply to many people, but not all. So for those people who thought similarly to me, my comment can warn them...

  • @michaelnegash7791
    @michaelnegash77914 жыл бұрын

    But you used magnets otherwise it is a good video

  • @maqboolakhtar5199
    @maqboolakhtar51995 жыл бұрын

    it is a universal motor ...it work on both AC AND DC current

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    5 жыл бұрын

    really ?

  • @heavycurrent7462

    @heavycurrent7462

    5 жыл бұрын

    Maqbool No dummy. This is a DC motor

  • @kalluriyashpalreddy9061
    @kalluriyashpalreddy9061Ай бұрын

    Make rc car useing it

  • @suryanshshishodia682
    @suryanshshishodia6824 жыл бұрын

    Still makes use of magnetism =))

  • @roidroid

    @roidroid

    2 жыл бұрын

    no-one said it didn't

  • @TechsScience
    @TechsScience6 жыл бұрын

    Since F=IL×B I=current L=inductance B=Magnetic field

  • @ashokballatagi1318
    @ashokballatagi13184 жыл бұрын

    Without wire size details one can not proceed. It is waste of time.

  • @TechsScience
    @TechsScience6 жыл бұрын

    You what it's good to make motors by self but we can't use them for purpose

  • @grain-diose

    @grain-diose

    6 жыл бұрын

    My videos are demonstration: physics, chemistry and more.

  • @TechsScience

    @TechsScience

    6 жыл бұрын

    yeah, i know keep it up

  • @mr.modifierhackers6663
    @mr.modifierhackers66636 жыл бұрын

    So foolish don't show the connections

  • @benhewlett7691
    @benhewlett76914 жыл бұрын

    Noisy , inefficient and a stupid idea

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