I find this discussion to be very touching. I am moved by Rattle's insight and his obvious love of this music which he conveys with absolute conviction at every performance.

Listening to those symphonies before and after watching this video are two completely different experiences. BPO guys, you should do it more often. And, Jesus Christ, Sir Simon Rattle is such a good speaker! I could listen to this man for hours!

@ferdinandmartin8345

8 жыл бұрын

Coleoni me too

@gloriamosure9184

Ай бұрын

Jesus has nothing to do with it!

Sir Simon Rattle. Sympathetic. Charismatic and Excellent Conductor of Orchestra. A Complete Maestro. His fan. BRZ/São Paulo State.

interesting, but I'm not convinced Brahms life as a 'confirmed bachelor' results from being emotionally crippled by his teenage years playing background piano music in sordid places. I think the unusual circumstances arising out of falling in love, in his early 20s, with Clara Schumann, provide a self-contained explanation of his later difficulties forming relationships with women. Life passes quickly, and there is nothing necessary to explain Brahms problems with commitment, beyond the fact, that, for years after meeting Clara Schumann, he remained in love with her. By the time he recovered from his attachment, he had developed somewhat reclusive patterns. He found it difficult to come out of his reserve, and probably did not very much want to do so, having adapted to being alone and finding consolation as much as possible in music. I think it's useful to try to imagine and comprehend the depth of friendship between the Schumann's and Brahms. All three were world-historical geniuses. Robert recognized Brahms ability fully, instantly, as he had Chopin's. Finding someone like Brahms was not like making an ordinary acquaintance, for Schumann. It was essentially as though a genuine prophet, or demi-god, had appeared before him. Brahms already felt something similar about Schumann. They quickly developed the deepest friendship, and at the same time, the attraction between Clara and Brahms was inevitably likely to culminate in romantic love. Shortly following the formation of these deep friendships, came events of tragic magnitude, involving the complete mental disintegration of the person both of considered their closest friend on earth. After the further emotional distress of the practical realization that his love for Clara caused both himself and the person he loved abiding internal conflict and guilt, Brahms separated, and did withdraw gradually from life, as is an understandable reaction, arising from a partially conscious, partially unconscious reluctance to put himself again in circumstances where such painful experiences could recur. Brahms was human, and it's fine to recognize that. He music is transcendental, however, in some passages, I think personally, more beautiful than anything else that has ever existed in the world. It was something within Brahms, something recognized by both Clara and Robert Schumann, instantly, that made this music possible. Whatever they saw, whatever it is that can be heard in Brahms music ... is really what is useful to know about Johannes Brahms!

@fredwanger9337

3 жыл бұрын

Really beautifully stated.

@soleaguirre100

Жыл бұрын

Excellent reflexión! thanks!!! greetings from Santiago Chile 🇨🇱🌷

@NCF80M3

Жыл бұрын

Hell I’d be depressed too if Brahms a younger, more talented, more attractive, etc. was clapping my lady on the side too 😂

@kbalfe

Жыл бұрын

I tend to agree with you

I find with Schumann, beneath the shimmery, ebullient surface, there's this incredible depth - and yes it's sad

What an emotional speech. Amazing to listen to such an intense account by a master of music.

I personally feel the opening of Schumann 2 is one of the most sublime and moving openings of any piece.

The greatest musician-conductor-philospher I know. He is the most intelligent musician and conductor I know. I understand that the Queen of England knighted him … he has really deserved to be a noble. For his heart is noble. HH Sir Simon Rattle. Thank you!

@darkprose

6 жыл бұрын

That you know? Look up a guy named _Leonard Bernstein._

@darkprose

6 жыл бұрын

Oh, and about nobility and the Queen-fuck nobility and fuck the Queen. Fuck her.

@bsdml

6 жыл бұрын

Yes, I too appreciate the intelligence and passion that are a part of the conductor Simon Rattle! Leonard Bernstein too. Also, Daniel Barenboim. Really, we are so lucky to have artist/communicators like these guys among us in this world, championing the great composers!

@judithnelson1665

6 жыл бұрын

yes and he "gets"Schumann.

@dpetrov32

3 жыл бұрын

Who hurt you sweetie? :(

I could listen to Simon Rattle's stories any of these great composers any day of the week

Love these lectures so much, thank you ❤️

Herzlichen Dank für diese ausgezeichnete Ausführung.

Thank you for this. If I recall correctly, "Frei, Aber Einsam" (F.A.E.) was Joachim's "Lebensmotto". That is why the F.A.E. Sonata was given to Joachim as a birthday present.

@pedro.patrocinioborges

6 жыл бұрын

WhistleFantasy I was looking for a commentary on this topic because I got confused when he said it. Yes, you can find that motive as well in Brahms 5th movement of Sonata Op. 5. Thanks!

@MomentoMusical

Жыл бұрын

Hey I was looking for the same comment, was he mistaken or FAE was also Schumann’s motto? I always known that was Joachim’s

Sir Rattle’s erudition is amazing!

Very interesting, thank you very much.

Vielen Dank, Herr Rattle! Ich befasse mich gerade mit der Klaviermusik dieser zwei Komponisten. Jetzt muss ich mich nochmal mit ihren Symphonien bekanntmachen.

outstanding

Brahms briefly loved Clara but 2 years after that ended Brahms fell in love with a young singer named Agatha Von Seibold- Brahms and Agatha were engaged to be married but when Clara found out Brahms broke off the engagement. neither Agatha or Brahms ever recovered from this. when Brahms was 35 he was trying to ask Clara if he could marry her daughter Julie and THAT is what led to the rift in their friendship. the phrase free but lonely was NOT Robert Schumann' s motto- it was Joseph Joachims motto. my source is the book Johannes Brahms his life and letters written by Styra Avins. here you can read for yourself the love letters to Agatha. here you can read the letter where he is asking Joachim's advice on wanting to marry Clara's daughter. Mr. rattle is repeating the handed down story of Brahms being in love with Clara for life- this is hardly true. he also fell in love with a beautiful pianist named Elizabeth Stockhausen- he called her his " soul mate" and kept her photo on his work desk until she died.

@kschuman1152

5 жыл бұрын

I disagree. I base that on my own experience of having really fallen, hook-line and sinker for a young woman when I was in college. I won't go on about it, but really, even to this day I've never met anyone like her. Over the course of the next 40 years, I've "fallen in love" twice more. Both women basically reminded me of the girl I loved in college. I've never really gotten over her, and frequently have to make effort to repress my memories of her. If someone were to write my biography, (which of course is not likely), it would not be apparent how much, after 40 years, I still love that girl, from such circumstances as the relationships I had latter

@prototropo

3 жыл бұрын

@@kschuman1152 I appreciate Sarah’s obvious familiarity with factual details. And I also appreciate what you’re saying; we are so unprivileged when it comes to the folds and creases in peoples’ lives-who knows what happened in the sweet, quiet shade of other lives? Who knows what all these enigmatic musicians were doing in the summer of 1842? Clara could have enjoyed a torrid month with Darwin in Bermuda. Or what about in 1872? Johannes might have been inspired to show a dinner guest, Cezanne, how to draw a Westfälischer Knochenschinken, then, er, oh-sing one! Cezanne never forgot that coda . . .

@kschuman1152

3 жыл бұрын

@@prototropo Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I think certainly that life goes on, that we must of necessity interact with the diverse content that enters the frame each new day, and hopefully find something that is interesting enough to distract from things that, through love and tragedy, still have a central claim on our thoughts .... 'I joined the Foreign Legion somebody to forget She said I'd find it easier if I had amnesia Who she was I do not recollect I joined the Foreign Legion to forget' Marie Dubas/Edith Piaf

Excellent.

Excellent

Thank you, Sir Simon Rattle, for truly appreciating this, wholesome, sensitive, beautiful Human, who had his feelings hurt so much, who was, cruelly, forced to struggle so much, and who is still being unappreciated, and---- slighted---- so much by souless, brainless academics, critics, and, most hurtfully so much of the public!!!!+

Schumann is - in my ears - one of the best musical storytellers, that ever was.

If nothing else, Maestro Rattle's insights remind us to tread more lightly when playing Brahms. Contrapuntal density does not mean sonic opacity.

he should narrate national geographic

Sensitive insightful inspiring beautiful

Ein schwieriges Gespräch aber eine gute Nachhaltige Rezession mit Liebe und Respekt für das Trio Schumann, Clara , Brahms Das Requiem " ach wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen oh Herr Zebaoth " das war geboten im 1. Lockdown zu singen 🎵 ich stand allein in meiner mini Studioecke und sang mit Rundfunkchor, Mitsingchor sowie Simon Halsey den 4.Satz vom Brahms Requiem ein es hatte etwas surreales etwas aus einer anderen Welt das Ergebnis stimmte mich gelassener Chorgesang ist nur real erhebend schön und emotional erlebbar 🎶🎵

"Frei aber einsam" is not from Brahms, but rather Joachim.

@sarahdubois2386

5 жыл бұрын

correct! and many other of these facts by mr. rattle are incorrect.

@prototropo

3 жыл бұрын

@@sarahdubois2386 I’m inclined to think his perambulation is romantic more than journalistic . . .

Schumann reminds me of the artist Manet in how he didn't follow the Vienna tradition. Manet didn't consider himself an impressionist and was important in the opening of modern art. I'm going to get a hold of these 8 symphonies. I'm only familiar with Brahmns #1.

The closest conductor we have to Leonard Bernstein....though Simon, as a person, is not so prone to extremes....but I think there is great respect of Simon for Lenny.

Plot Twist: Brahms didn't love Clara, he loved Robert.

@ThatGuy5331

6 жыл бұрын

Felix Mendelssohn Fucking hell...

@johnnynoirman

5 жыл бұрын

He love them both.

@zorrderschnitter2

5 жыл бұрын

well duh

@minka866

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe we don't understand the love of their era. Brahms wrote who love them both. It's unnecessary talk about supposed crush. It didn't add to comprehension of their art.

@1spitfirepilot

4 жыл бұрын

Felix Mendelssohn further twist: Brahms could only love the unattainable - he needed a barrier to avoid the trauma of a real consummation. So he could love both as in their different ways, unattainable, impossible loves.

Mother/Whore: that third movement of the Third Symphony for me has always perfectly captured the zeitgeist of fin de siècle Vienna, which among other things was Europe's suicide capital. Calling Dr. Freud!

1:10 bis 1:17 1:29 bis 1:32 - fifhteen:thirty five

Frei aber einsam was Joachim's motto-not Schumann's.

This is only for people that appreciate classical music over popular music. People at my country get often bored or slept when hearing someone talking about something that they never heard before or have a vague idea of it, i feel sad for them. Simon Rattle is a great human being and somehow charming.

@SolarMumuns

3 жыл бұрын

It's the same 12 notes whether it's 'classical' or not. It's just snobbery to consider one genre above another.

I'd say the secret to Brahms music is his relationship to women in general. Giving Endless romantic foder and struggle with contradiction.

With all the due respect he has a vivid imagination.

Brahms hit that shit

@lilacosmanthus

7 жыл бұрын

LMAO!

Ich denke, Simon Rattle reduziert die Musik von Brahms und Schumann zu sehr auf die private Sphäre. Auch den Menschen Brahms schätze ich anders ein. Das sind alles sehr persönliche Gedanken, die nicht unbedingt viel aussagen über den Gehalt Musik, denn diese hat auch die transzendente Ebene, die es über den persönlichen "Scheiß" hinaushebt. Und genau da fängt es an, interessant zu werden.

Though provoking and perceptive, but I'm inclined to favor Schumann's interpretation of the finale of the 2nd over Rattle's. Im Gegenteil.

It's a shame that so many conductors claim to be authorities on composer"s lives and motivations. Much of his assessment is bullcrap, but hey! He's Simon Rattle, so we have to believe him.

I would say I am more attached to Schumann's than to Brahms' music. Just as I would say I am more attached to Handel's than to Bach's. Schumann is more direct and honest were Brahms' lapidarian method of composition buries his emotional directness in technique, generally speaking. Brahms' first is his best symphony where I believe Schumann's second is the great 'Romantic' symphony. Also, Schumann's 4th exhibits a fascinating palindromic scheme over the entirety of the work. His compositional technique I believe is greatly underrated. This can also be seen in the chamber works which I consider far superior to Brahms. I will now gird my loins and raise shields for the impending maelstrom.

Brahms Schubert

This nonsense about Schumann being manic depressive is just that - nonsense. He was a sound highly functional mind, his late mental deterioration was almost certainly due to tertiary syphilis. His creativity had nothing to due with manic phases. Very surprised to hear Rattle do him such a disservice.

@ice-iu3vv

3 жыл бұрын

says... who else? his mental disorder "first manifested itself when he was 23 ", "is thought to be a combonation of bipolar disorder and mercury poisoning", i cant find other sources saying that it was "late". he was a major genius of course but "sound highly functional mind"? who else believes that ? you suggest that rattle does him a disservice. your alternative seems to be doing historical accuracy a disservice.

Another Sir Anthony Hopkins talked about Bach with equal passion.

you say trio i say quartette, add joachim

Why can't he talk about something else?

Ich kann mich leider dem positiven Urteil anderer Kommentatoren überhaupt nicht anschließen. Und zwar aus folgenden Gründen: A) Es ist vollkommen absurd, geradezu verstörend und wirkt auf mich als expliziter Angriff auf die Einheit der deutschen Musik und Kultur, eine künstliche Alternative oder gar einen Gegensatz zwischen deutscher Musik und Wiener Klassik statuieren zu wollen. Ebensogut könnte man die Alternative Shakespeare und englische Literatur definieren. Beides ist Schwachsinn. Die Wiener Klassik, die ihrerseits mit der sogenannten Mannheimer Schule der Komposition in Zusammenhang steht, und insbesondere der heilige Beethoven, sind das Zentrum der deutschen Musik. Österreich gehört genauso zu Deutschland wie Preussen, Bayern und Sachsen und war zur Zeit der Wiener Klassik im deutschen Bund zu Preussen vollkommen gleichberechtigt. Außerdem ist Beethoven bekanntlich in Bonn geboren. Zudem kommt es auf die geistige Einheit und nicht auf die politische an und die ist durch die musikalische und sprachliche Einheit gegeben. Schließlich ist es vollkommen irrelevant, an welcher Stelle ein Komponist geographisch wirkt. Beethoven lebte in seiner ganz eigenen Geisteswelt, er hätte seine Werke ebensogut in Berlin, Hamburg oder Frankfurt schreiben können, so sehr ich gerade Wien als schönste deutsche Stadt schätze. B) Diese Art großer Musik, großer deutscher Musik des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts, steht immer in einer Beziehung zu Beethoven. Alle Romantiker, so sehr sie unterschiedliche Wege gingen, sahen Beethoven immer als ihren großen Meister an. Und wie Furtwängler immer wieder betont hat, ist diese Musik in erster Linie absolute Musik, also reine Musik, die keine konkreten Vorgänge oder Lebenssituationen darstellt, sondern von einer transzendenten höheren Geisteswelt handelt. Es geht hierbei weder um Lebensprobleme noch um Lebenssituationen, noch um die konkrete oder seelische Darstellung realer menschlicher Beziehungen. Deshalb hat Beethoven zu Schuppanzigh gesagt: Was kümmert mich Deine elende Geige, wenn der Geist über mich kommt. C) Die vierte Symphonie von Schumann hat in ihrer letzten Version, die Furtwängler gespielt hat, und die alleine deshalb schon als die eigentliche angesehen werden muss, sehr viel mit Beethoven zu tun. Alleine der Übergang von der romantisch-warmen unbestimmten Stimmung am Ende des dritten Satzes zu der gewaltigen Steigerung am Beginn des vierten Satzes, eine der erhabendsten Äußerungen der Symphoniegeschichte, wäre wahrscheinlich ohne das Vorbild der mystischen Überleitung zwischen drittem und viertem Satz der fünften Symphonie Beethovens nicht denkbar gewesen. Schließlich folgt aus der Tatsache, dass der zweite und dritte Satz der ersten Symphonie von Brahms einen eher zarten lyrischen Charakter haben, in keiner Weise, dass hier im Prinzip nicht eine Beziehung zu Beethoven bestehen kann. Denn man möchte doch Beethoven hoffentlich nicht absprechen, dass er einen wunderbaren Sinn für das Zarte und das Lyrische hatte. Welcher Komponist sollte einen solchen Sinn denn noch gehabt haben, wenn nicht ein Beethoven, "in dessen Seele etwas von einem schuldlosen Kind wohnt" (Furtwängler) in der vierten Symphonie, in der Pastorale, in den langsamen Sätzen seiner Klavierkonzerte, in der Waldsteinsonate, in der Fis-Dur-Sonate opus 78, in der Cellosonate opus 69, im Streichquartett opus 74, auf einer mystisch-vergeistigten Ebene in den späten Klaviersonaten, in der Cavatina, im heiligen Dankgesang aus opus 132, im Adagio der neunten Symphonie, und vielen, vielen anderen Werken, und nicht zuletzt auch in den Seitengedanken seiner dramatischen Sätze, ohne welche deren musikalische Gesamtaussage gar nicht bestehen kann.

@SpaghettiToaster

6 жыл бұрын

Martin Immanuel Kober Ich verstehe deinen ganzen Kommentar überhaupt nicht. In dem Video geht es um die Beziehung zwischen Robert und Clara Schumann und Brahms. Natürlich hatte die auch Auswirkungen auf deren Musik. Ob es sich dabei um Programmmusik handelt oder nicht ist doch völlig irrelevant. Das CLARA-Thema in der Musik von Brahms und Schumann reicht dafür doch schon als Beweis. Und was das ganze mit Beethoven zu tun haben soll, verstehe ich erst recht nicht. Ein Komponist ist doch nicht nur von einer einzigen Quelle beeinflusst. Niemand streitet den Einfluss von Beethoven auf Brahms' und Schumanns Musik ab, indem er andere Einflüsse beschreibt. Hier geht es außerdem viel mehr um Lebensumstände, die das Komponieren vieler Werke der beiden beeinflusst und inspiriert haben könnten, als um Einflüsse auf ihren kompositorischen Stil an sich. Wenn man erklärt, dass Beethoven von der französischen Revolution zum Komponieren der Eroica inspiriert wurde, heißt das wohl kaum, dass man ihn irgendwelche französischen musikalischen Einflüsse unterstellt oder z.B. den Einfluss von Haydn abstreitet. Genausowenig, dass die Eroica Programmmusik sei. Insofern finde ich deinen Kommentar irgendwie völlig am Thema vorbei.

Good speaker, except too many pronouns. Sometimes lost is which man Schumann or Brahms he is talking about.

All of this psychological analysis is pure imagination.... He's just spinning stories that please him... Mr. Rattle, conduct the pieces but don't fantasize about their background psychology, because it adds nothing to the appreciation of the music