The answer as always, it depends. At work, I'm still ensuring we only use npm/node for all of our projects, however outside of work everything I create now uses Bun, primarily because there's less setup required for testing and running TypeScript files. It's nice to have a bunch of tools out of the box with Bun.

@alhzz

Ай бұрын

Node.js v20 includes a stable version of the test runner module to build and run tests easily without installing additional dependencies

@noahgsolomon

Ай бұрын

facts. Being able to just run test.ts on it's own without any tsc step is very nice

When talking javascript, I decided to leave my old projects in node and code the new ones in Deno. I have not tried bun, but will stick with Deno for the meantime.

Node for now. I like stability and things that are battle-tested.

I use Bun for development on a local machine purely for its speed. The frameworks i use often do full clean npm installs on updates which can get tedious using node. I do also notice a runtime speed inprovement with bun. My coworkers have found solace in deno and bun because they can create test scripts in typescript without the extra deps and compile step. They come from a non js background and the toolchain often frustrated them. When its production time i still use node as the target.

I honestly a time could be coming soon where it may be smoother to maintain a deno / bun project. I think this everytime I'm in a bun app and realize how much less I have to think about my build system: - require vs import - type: module in my package json - tinkering with tsconfig I've noticed bun is just easy to start up (haven't messed with Deno), and I can't help but wonder if that starting point means that at some point Node is just not going to be able to keep up as far as ease of use goes. On top of that it seems like it's at least capable performance wise of what node is, and can exceed in certain spots (certainly faster to install which could affect CICD alot) The big scary part is "Where will the bun ecosystem be in 5 years", but my guess is that moving from Bun to Deno or Node won't be that much harder than just upgrading a node version anyways (assuming that the bun project you build as some kind of node adapter, like elysia does which is my goto bun framework). We shall see

Hi, thanks for the information. Are you updating your Node course on Udemy for Node version 22?

Deno is pretty great

It sounds like your main concern around stability is that code you wrote X years ago will continue to run. Do you have an example of old Deno code which no longer runs?

I’m waiting on that Qwik course. Any chances in the future?

Perfectly put! I think it's mostly opinion for enterprise projects as stability is most important. Do you have any preference Max for framework within node? Is still express the best or so do you any pressing advantage to explore newer ones ?

@jancartman321

Ай бұрын

Hello, I'm Max Cartman and I recommend Fastify ... joke aside, if I was to start a Node project right now, Fastify, hands down. Great core plugins. Maintainers are Node core maintainers. Popular, mature, fast, TS support and still plain, not overengineered like NestJS.

Hello, Maximilian Schwarzmüller! I have recently been thinking of changing my field. I have been working in a different domain earlier and have started learning JavaScript. After that, I plan to learn the React Native framework. Is this the right time to become a frontend developer, or should I learn different skills? I am scared of AI.

Started using deno since it can be a kernel for typescript Jupyter notebooks and because supabase edge functions need it. Started using bun just for quicker PoC. Node is stable and great for larger apps but a bit bulky to setup with typescript, tests,…

I'm not convinced that Bun made the right decision by choosing JavaSriptCore over V8. V8 might start a bit slower, but is for cpu intensive tasks significantly faster. Having that said, Bun makes everything so simple, it's a relief, but Bun is not mature enough. Right now, Deno is the sweet spot for me. Great DX and API, great std lib, mature, stable and fast.

I prefer using Nodejs yet. Because it is very comfortable for me and I finished your course and There is Deno module and I tried to learn this and I saw that and I didn't like this too much . I made a decision to stick with Nodejs.

I use all 3: Bun as default, for speed and features; Deno for its REPL and as a formatter (and soon to publish to JSR); and node to test compatibility.

The best example about this concern is MeteorJS, which being a great js framework, hasn't been update to lastest NodeJs version which makes it carry vulnerabilities.

Completely agree with you! It's good to have options to choose but today I prefer to stick to NodeJS because of stability + large community + job opportunities!

I never make decisions in advance before the problem at hand is assessed. Depending on requirements and deadlines and expected longevity of the solution as well as required stability I make a decision there and then. If allowed, I would opt for more experimental/newer frameworks/runtimes/... in order to get the hands-on experience and not depend on some articles/videos how reliable are those choices for future projects. In all other cases tried and battle tested choices prevail.

I switched from node to bun and so far its going great. Elysia Js +bun is the future.

I haven't used other backend languages like Bun or Deno, so can't conclude if they are good over the others or not. Currently working with Python and I worked with Node.js and PHP in past extensively. They are good and fulfilling the needs, so Node.js is fair choice among Node, Bun and Deno.

I totally agree 👍

is rust really better then any other language in term on performance ?

@plaintext7288

19 күн бұрын

It is possible yo write code that with magnitudes of difference in performance compared to js, python and even c#/java

Have any one tried dockerising same code with bun, deno and node? Are they by any chance considerably smaller than Node? 👀

In my case, I am using Node.js with NestJS and the Express adapter, and so far, I've had no problems with the projects I've developed, so I don't have a reason to switch. Maybe I'll look into the Laravel framework, which has a strong ecosystem that can be useful for freelancers.

@abdulsiyadnp

11 күн бұрын

Hi fi from an opposite passenger 🫸🫷

I have way too many custom libraries and stuff written in Node rn to switch to Bun/Deno. And I kinda don’t feel like updating every single one to ensure compatibility. So, I’m sticking to Node for the things it’s good at.

@jon1867

Ай бұрын

I've honestly been super impressed by the compatibility of Bun so far with node, it's not 100%, but I bet it will be soon from what it feels like

I use node.js every day. I'm excited about deno and bun, but have not yet found a reason to use them for any of my projects.

Would be interested in your reasons and thoughts on Rust, your perspective would be great Max!

It was a nice explanation, sir.

My understanding is as enthusiastic developer those are very great. But you will never seen in job vacancy from large companies

I think your reasoning makes sense in most cases. There seem however to be performance benefits using Bun (and Deno), so in special cases i think Bun might be a better choice.

I would like you to release your nest js course

@slavatischuk

Ай бұрын

Agree. Maximilian, please do make NestJs course.

Does using Nodejs means Express JS or pure NodeJS?

@saadhabashneh5587

Ай бұрын

Express is a framework, node is the runtime environment for JavaScript to be written outside of the browser

I'd say Nodejs will be silmilar to the case of Java and Bun/Deno will be similar to the case of Go. Just like how older, more established companies will continue to stick with Java, and new startups are going with newer lanaguages like Go, we'll see a similar thing with NodeJS and Bun/Deno

I've slowly been using more Go for backend and node for only for my favourite js framework Next.js. I doubt I'll get to a stage where Node.js is not sufficient for me

I wilm stick with node because i see no reason to switch maybe later on I'll try bun

I am for trying everything, so just go there and do some stuff for learning, at some point all those runtimes, frameworks and languages are gonna grow up, or the ones we are using now are decline.

I use node, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with it. I am constantly frustrated by node and the conflicts between... I'll just say legacy CJS vs ESM. CJS is just a blight on node at this point, mostly because of fragmentation and how it's kinda unpredictable. I would instantly switch to something like deno if I could. But... I really can't.

I just started learning NESTjs. Its really cool.. well structured code..also it uses typescript which is way better than javascript.

Really like Deno. Typescript right out of the box. Less time configuring and more time developing

I am trying new things!

I don't use all of these javascript framework. A lot work and shift in mindset Python, Go, PHP is straight forward.its the current trend now, back to basics please.

Node is the best, It is easy, and you only need one language.

A lot of experts here really funny.

Waiting a php zero to hero course from you.

NestJS FTW

Whilst

No one ask for Bun, it’s not Web Compatible, just faster Node.js because it’s bug everywhere. Deno is way better in the Web Compatibility department and way more stable than Bun. Node.js, Deno, and Cloudflare Workers are part of the WinterCG initiative that aims to standardize backend JavaScript and that’s the way.

@MaxCupertino-gf5ht

Ай бұрын

Yes you're right , first i do like bun but later on i saw that its even worse than nodejs . nothing works on bun , everything failed. Deno is quite at least it works.

@taquanminhlong

10 күн бұрын

Well, I'm not gonna run js on the server anyway, Bun offers a faster pace in the dev environment 😂

@GolderiQ

9 күн бұрын

@@taquanminhlong no matter if it’s production or random script in development. Nothing beat stability: Deno is the way because it’s faster than Node and as stable as Node. Plus I would say speed is irrelevant in dev or local, basically everything is always fast in local, especially running workers on 4 cores or more. Speed is only really relevant in production with several requests arriving per seconds, unfortunately often on 1 virtual core or even a fraction of a virtual core.

Deno and Bun are not field-tested enough, but I believe with some stable releases and time it's a thing.

@jancartman321

Ай бұрын

That's only true for Bun. Deno is 6 years old and used by Deno Deploy, Netlify, Slack, Supabase ... also, Deno is written in Rust, which is less prone to bugs than both C++ and Zig. Deno is using the same JS engine (V8) as node.

Same here. ABOUT Deno: I started using Deno because of out-of-the-box TypeScript support. But I got frustrated with a bunch of issues, and compatibility was one of them. Using URLs, for importing libraries, was annoying more than it was convenient. You import a library, and vsCode starts yelling that it doesn't understand anything about what you have imported, so you need to hover over the URL and click on a button to tell it to download the file/URL, or you could save and run the project to get Deno to install them. Another issue with Deno was that they were advertising that they support JSX/TSX out of the box, but it's not true! You need to install and configure a bunch of things and at the end realize that it doesn't work properly, and it's broken somewhat! Their formatter is called "fmt" rather than "format", when you need to get used to the name whenever you want to use it. They are using 2 spaces rather than 4 and semicolons rather than no-semicolons, which means for every project I needed to create a configuration file right away and change those defaults. Another issue that you realize is that not much people are using Deno, so it's very difficult to find any package that is specifically built for/with Deno. I was looking for CSS parser and find out they are recommending 2 different packages, I checked them both out, and they were mediocre at based and had typescript type issues! Instead, I find about Lightning CSS, and it was amazing but Deno didn't support it and I realized it when I converted my code to an executable and find out that the executable was immediately crashing. I realized that it shows the error inside the executable window for a few milliseconds, so I recorded what was happening with a screen recorder and screenshotted the single frame that was showing the error message! It has other issues too, but I don't remember right now, and I don't feel like writing. Another issue is that, if you are using NPM packages in Deno, you something need to install the types from "@types/..." and Deno doesn't support this out of the box like Node. In Node, you just install the types package for your package and that's it. With Deno, I find out that you need to add a comment at the beginning of every file you want to use that package. ABOUT Bun: The only use that I have for Bun is that installing packages for a project with a shit project worked with Bun, but it didn't with PNPM! So, one day I had a very bad internet connection and PNPM just didn't work, it wasn't showing any console logs or any feedback. I decided to use Bun, and it just worked! Another thing that I like about it is, their alternative to npx is called bunx, which is easy to remember, unlike whatever PNPM calls their alternative, I don't ever remember to be honest! The issue with Bun is that you can't use it as an alternative to tsc. Meaning, you can't create your project in Bun and run a command to compile it to JS code and shit it to NPM registry. It just doesn't do that, same with Deno. Makes no sense to me! Another issue is that whenever you install something with Bun, it formats your package.json file! WHAT!!! (it formats it in a wrong way, lol). Deno did the same, but they eventually fixed this issue. Bun calls their lock file "bun.lockb" which I don't like the ending "b". I'm sticking to Node.

@moveonvillain1080

Ай бұрын

Can you give a TL:DR ?

@nht_vng8669

Ай бұрын

i give up from 1 st sentence

@nht_vng8669

Ай бұрын

Why do they want use JS everywhere? Just like lisper want to use Lisp everywhere.

Bun is stable enough

@jancartman321

Ай бұрын

For tooling? Yes. For production backends? Hmmm ...

No thank you. I use bun

Bun

Bun to the moon!

Use Go.

Yall need to understand that Deno and Bun are just trial ideas. Their best feature will make into Node. Node is the way to go

@saadhabashneh5587

Ай бұрын

Not really, the problems solved with bun can't make it into node unless they delete node and remake it from the beginning again

@arkeynserhayn8370

Ай бұрын

​@@saadhabashneh5587 Can yo name some examples?

I mean you should be able to work in any javascript runtime. The differences in terms of API are very minimal