I really appreciate you going down that rabbit hole so we don't have to!

I’ve done a lot of it, but, I recommend just using an expander mandrel after sizing to eliminate the time and effort if you don’t want to turn necks

@conservativesniperhunter7439

Жыл бұрын

I’d say that that it really depends on what type of shooting you are doing . If you are an Benchrest or F-Class competition shooter or you shoot out past or 1000 Yards to ULR distances then neck turning is probably the way to go . If you are hunter shooting out to 500 Yards maximum then it’s not worth the trouble and you would hardly see any difference out at those yardage’s .

@G5Hohn

Жыл бұрын

Neck turning really has nothing to do with how you size the neck. If you do neck turn, you can use a bushing die or honed Forster and not have to expand. This eliminates another possible step as well as the possible concentricity decrease associated with expansion on the upstroke. That said, I've never seen any evidence the concentricity has any effect on the target. And I've been looking for it.

Nothing's a waste of time if you enjoy doing it and feel it's worth while. Honestly though, my rifles have factory chambers and probably won't realize the benefits of neck turning. Have I neck sized in the past? Of course, many of us have but soon realize it didn't result in a meaningful or repeatable result. What I did discover was split necks became very apparent after only two or three loading's. If my chambers were precision machined and required neck turning that's a whole different ball game! Over the years I've discovered mandrel neck sizing made a huge difference. I know what my fired brass measures and use the proper neck size bushing to bring it a couple of thousands under size then expand a mandrel resulting in .002 total neck tension. I also anneal after each firing, I feel this is very important. Firing work hardens the brass and makes it less ductile. Annealing brings the brass back to its "soft" state making the insertion and retention forces predictable.

I look at it as a performance based metric. If I were trying to compete in F-class, benchrest, etc., I would be neck turning, annealing, mandrel expanding, volume sorting brass, weight sorting bullets, meplat uniforming, using a 0.001 grain powder scale and a micro trickle, etc. But if I just want to have reliable hits on man-sized steel at 1,000 yards, I can avoid a large amount of time investment into reloading, still have a 0.5 MOA 10-shot group, and spend my time and money shooting in the wind to gain better skills. I'll focus on shooting and leave the sub quarter minute magnum chasing to other folks.

@dahut3614

Жыл бұрын

And then there is the wind...!

@jwilsonhandmadeknives2760

Жыл бұрын

this

@dahut3614

Жыл бұрын

@@1newme425 Oh, yeah, missed that!

Will you shoot groups with the turned & non-turned brass next? That would be interesting to see.

@crashs278

Жыл бұрын

Yeh need groups, unless the reloads are just to hang on the wall as a piece of art saying these are concentric. Well how do they shoot? Dunno but they’re all the same… hmmm

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

I will obviously shoot these and do the comparison. I will add a couple other options to to keep things interesting 😉

The Lee collet die evens out neck thickness, maybe compare this with neck turning.

@borbonic

Жыл бұрын

Yes I use the Lee neck sizing dies.

@crashs278

Жыл бұрын

I’m not very religious but I have to say amen to this.

I believe in it. Long story short I started making 6.5 Creedmoor brass from 308. I converted an old Forester trimmer into a neck turner. I found some of the converted brass had very thick necks especially Federal so I started turning the necks to .0145" and found not only a huge return in consistency and accuracy but during resizing the neck expansion to size is now very smooth. I can only guess that on the 30% of cases that were hard and gritty as the expander ball went back through the neck for the final size that there was to much metal there and the expander ball was very tight, it never happens anymore and I can attest to my group sizes shrinking from 1/2moa to just 3/8moa if I do my part.

These vidoes are brilliant, they help immensely about making choices of what gear to buy and the lengths to go and amount of work required to achieve desired reloading accuracy vs time spent vs budget. I have no interest in neck turning but I do have quite a range of the SAC bushings in my kit. Which is quite the investment as I’m in Australia and the last order I placed cost AUD $215 or about USD $150 for 3 bushings. The shipping equals one bushing. The information contained herein makes it an easy choice to spend my money in the right place to get the value I seek. Cheers.

thank you. I've wondered about this myself years ago. As mentioned, with some cases there is no option but to outter neck trim. however, my personal idea is that inner neck trim is more important and not just to remove "doughnuts". as inner trimming removing the variations within the case neck.

I use Lee neck sizing dies. Seems to work OK.

@JuanValentino-yu1ft

2 ай бұрын

Good die for partial neck sizing just place a washer over the case onto the shell holder and it steps the sizing area up the thickness of the washer .

I've had good luck with the 'ironing' case necks with Lee collet neck sizing die. I've only neck turned when making cartridge conversions.

@borbonic

Жыл бұрын

I just played with 30-06 to 25-06 brass conversion today on 5 cases. The only difference is the neck is 1 thousandth or 2 different than my stock 25-06 brass. So your comment seems reasonable to me. After converting my brass I measured the shoulders in the Rcbs precision mic and all is well. I resized the neck with Lee neck sizing die. They got in my chamber just fine. I could see needing to neck turn if any don't fit in the chamber but my experiment is only on a small set

@JuanValentino-yu1ft

2 ай бұрын

Lee Collet die does not iron out neck wall thickness variations to any useful degree . It just works better on uneven thickness necks . What a Lee Collet die can also do is partial neck sizing by placing a washer over the case onto the shell holder .

Thank you, this is great information!

Good info! I have the Hornady unit like yours, but haven’t used it much. I shoot 6.5 Credmore and .308, so it should make a difference. I guess time will tell for sure Take care and stay safe! God bless!🎚🙏🇲🇾🇲🇾🇲🇾

Better eat your Wheaties to keep up with Bolt Action Reloading. You keep our minds working.. Thanks buddy.

I found it helped a free up the action on my old Mauser

It's hard to do an apples to apples comparison with neck-turned brass, because you're also changing up that neck tension. I just finished with a dual load work-up with my milsurp 8x57 mauser with neckturned brass. Even though the neck turns brass gave me more consistent (that is, less non-shooter-induced fliers) and predictable groups, the load work-up liked the tighter neck tension more. That's not always going to be the case, but, food for thought.

Most of my neck turning has had to be done because of converting brass to wildcats, but I can see where it might help some on other firearms.

Thanks for the update brother 👍❤️,wonder about if node range may be more forgiving

I started neck turning over 40 years ago ... manually , that is holding the case still and spinning the neck turning tool - mine is a shop-made by a friend copy of a Forstner style - by hand . these days I hold the pilot of the tool in a tail-stock chuck on my lathe and chuck the cases in the headstock . Much more accurate and you don't have to clock the cases when you chamber a round .

I made 6.5 manbun brass out of 308, definitely had to turn the necks lol

@bedlamite42

Жыл бұрын

Same here with 260 rem

@borbonic

Жыл бұрын

Manbun lol👍

I'd rather spend more money for quality brass up front than play with neck turning.

@comodice905

Жыл бұрын

Dawg know

Neck turning can improve accuracy at times from oval necks due to wall thickness. Converting cases such as 300 Black from 5.56 is essential to neck trim to avoid jams from neck walls over .0135, as various wall thickness from case manufacturers. Some barrel manufacturers also have match grade and combat grade barrels that have variations of tolerance.

That is an awesome shirt.

2 reasons for turning, chamber clearance or making cartridges/wildcats relieving abnormalities of neck to center bullet to bore axis , with a bonus of better tension and ES (yes some brands of brass are better i than others but , you can make brass out all your brass ,

It may not help everyone, it is one of those do it once and done deals like flash hole uniforming. May provide a bit btter neck tension consistency at least, with all the necks being the same wall thickness.

please note , I think more data should be taken after firing the newly turned brass , i believe you will see improved concentricty after forming to chamber, plus the ES/SD of velocities improve that data would make a great pt2 video

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

This brass has 2 or 3 firings since its been turned, Just FYI. I will certainly be following up the the ES/SD of course too.

I don't mind sizing the brass but improving and making brass is a job for the factory.

A standard -v- Ackley Improved comparison would be very revealing. Does the steeper shoulder junction inhibit donuts? Does it increase case life? Is the spike less at the peak of bullet seating? Is there less case stretch? I hand load both my 260AI and my gf’s 260 Rem., so I know the answers but not the numbers and mechanics.

cool video

I have considerable interest in neck turning and the results on paper. For starts, I will probably use a bushing for sizing (maybe a SAC bushing if I can find one out there😁) and then expand out to .2620" with a 21 Century expander. From there, test from .011-.014 neck wall thickness and use a liquid moly neck lube. We will see how they land on paper. Thanks for sharing more great data!

@Rickjames127

11 ай бұрын

How did that test go for you and have you continued to load in this manner or has your reloading process changed in 11 months time?

@Jeff_Seely

11 ай бұрын

Yes I still do use this procedure and it has fine tuned my groups considerably. It wasn't cheap to get to this though. Assess what your goals are. If you're interested in improving subtly then follow this procedure. If you're happy with what you have now I'd stick with it.

@Rickjames127

11 ай бұрын

@@Jeff_Seely Yeah good tooling is never cheap unfortunately. What did you find to be the best neck thickness after doing turning tests? You personally turn the necks after the bushing and mandrel?

@Jeff_Seely

11 ай бұрын

@@Rickjames127 . Well believe it or not I am turning my necks@.008in now but that is because I have a new custom chamber. I am doing my best when I have minimal neck tension. But that may only be only giving me a 0.125 group improvement at 200 yards. That's why I say assess what your goals are and work out a reasonable budget. Because you are right. Good tooling is very expensive. And everything else that goes with that. Good luck! And no I am turning my next before setting tension. And I get that bullet seated quickly right after my expander mandrel. Don't let your necks sit around for too long before you put a bullet in them.

@Rickjames127

11 ай бұрын

@jeffseely86 OK that's what I figured. I think I'm going to start with a bushing die with the sac bushing and I'm thinking a k&m neck turning setup before getting the mandrel setup. Slowly test each new step individually to see the improvement. Got some graphite, ptfe, tungsten disulfide and moly disulfide to test. Starting with the graphite (neolube) as neck lube on a known good load. Getting a dual tumbler to test the moly coating on bullets next. I only have reloaded for factory chambers so far nothing custom. So .008" neck thickness sounds crazy. I figure for me I'll start at the same spec you listed in your first comment around .011-.014". Thanks for the super fast replies and insight. .125" at 200y isn't a bad improvement imo. Anything to get me to a more consistent .5moa out of an autoloader I'm down for within reason. For example I won't go down to .001 of neck tension I'd rather be .002 and above based on how I use the equipment. My best guess based on the data I've seen the bushing die or neck turning or mandrel make a noticeable improvement thanks to the concentricity improvement. I bet after that initial large improvement it's diminishing returns for each step attempting to improve that concentricity. Say you go from .003" of avg runout using a standard FL sizing die to .001" avg runout using a FL bushing die then the mandrel and turning give you an avg of .0005-.0008 for example. This is just a guess based on the data I've seen. I obviously don't own the tooling yet and having done testing to draw conclusions using my own chambers.

Like your shirt!

Hi, love your channel and thank you for the content you bring. I need some advice and was wondering if you could help. I'm on my 5th firing and I noticed the soot ring around the case necks is not an even round seal. it seals 3/4 around then it spikes up to the top...I've never seen this before. any ideas?

I’ve used a Forrester neck turning tool and still have it. used to do it with my 243 brass, but I was always worried I was taking off too much by the time I got done. I was shooting one hole groups at 100 yards with and without turning brass using the same pet load, so in my opinion, it didn’t help in that instance.

I'm wondering how much those figures and consistency would improve further using something like the Autodod, which turns the inside and outside of the neck?

You have to make sure that the case neck is straight and any thick parts needed to be removed are on the outside. Using the bushing system these parts would be forced into the inside.

That’s great info, but how does that affect the actual performance of the rounds? Es, sd, accuracy and all that good stuff. I find when I neck turned my brass it has the tendency to split sooner than not turned, could be that I screwed up also.

Interesting subject. I've thought about neck turning but honestly, is the cost of adding yet another tool to the reloading bench worth it ? I do use the SAC bushing which works very well, and I'm getting sub 1/2 MOA out of my Ruger American Predator so the answer for me is no, doesn't seem worth the time or expense.

maybe when you do test non-turned vs. turned necks use a led sled and shoot at say 500 yds. that should produce some better results as the variance will hopefully be greater. someone told me neck turning is for long distance shooters not really for 300 yds or less.

Would you not need to run them through mandrel first, to push the indifferences outward and then neck turn? If not a neck reamer would be warranted.

Only if you have a custom chamber or converting brass cases from larger to smaller . A good neck die like a Lee collet die sizes concentric necks within .001-.0015, l achieve less than .001 most of the time.

Have you done test the see if concentricity makes a difference. In my testing it made no difference at all.

As a “new-ish” reloader, neck turning the outside doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Why not turn the inside where the bullet sits? Thanks for all the great content!! 👍

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

Hi Adam, I am not going to pretend to be an expert here but unless you are using something like an IDOD you are either going to outside neck turn (this example) or inside neck reaming. I feel its way easier to size a piece of brass and run a mandrel in the neck to leave the imperfections on the outside of the case to be removed, otherwise for the inside neck reaming (as I understand) you still need to set the outside at a specific dimension to have the inside to be able to be "reamed" correctly. I am going to play around some more here on the channel to try and do a realistic comparison.

How about you shoot some factory and some neck turned cases in a factory barrel to see if it’s worth the extra effort. Out to 300 yards if possible. Thx.

@hardball107

Жыл бұрын

Do it at 100 to remove as much of the human and environmental element as possible. I have and found a real benefit with my Savage 12FV in 6.5 Creedmoor shooting Federal and Hornady brass truing the wall thickness to.0145" using the same twice fired brass. Fire factory rounds, reload and fire again, turn the necks and again reload the same way with the same brass. There is a measurable difference. With grandad's 30/06 ? You probably wouldn't see it but with any newer rifle especially in a caliber like the 6.5Cm, oh yes.

Once you become capable enough as a shooter to *consistently* shoot sub 2MOA groups in various wind conditions at 600+ yards, you may then worry about neck turning.

Hey there BAR. Miss the chats on Twutch with you and JRB,along with the community there. Question I'm curious about the value of inside neck reaming. It seems as though no matter how much I clean,brush the cases for my 3 6.5cm rifles there still a bit of roughness inside the necks. Am going to call L E Wilson about it. But there in business to sell. Value you and JRB as my go to duo for knowledge and correct process for reloading. Respectfully dadsalive

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

Hey Dadsalive, I miss the twitch chats as well. I don't blame Johnny though he has to balance his own life. Maybe they will pick back up in the winter? who know. As far as neck reaming goes, I have purchased a couple of their neck size reamers, I just haven't got there yet. I am pretty sure I have both the 264 and 308, so you will see something eventually. BAR

Have you checked to see if there are any pressure differences? I have a little theory that a little more neck clearance in good for pressures (if you turn like me without a turn barrel - I get to the same thickness as you with my IDOD) - haven't been able to test on pressure trace II yet. Life has gotten way in the way of my reloading this year.

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

I understand the life part for sure. So you have an IDOD? What all cartridges can you turn with it?

@sf2189

Жыл бұрын

You can turn anything you like. You just need to buy a case holder and then adjust the cutters to the desired thickness. I use it for 6.5x47 and 6.5 creedmoor. Lapua brass. Just got some alpha brass for the 6.5x47 will probably turn that too after testing.

neck turning or inside reaming , that is the question ? i neck turn factory cases and inside ream my formed cases . 22tcm is much easier and faster to ream made from 5.56 lc brass . sadly inside ream dies are costly .

When in the case preparation process due you neck turn?

We can’t tell nothing till you shoot them. I’m still debating if concentricity (within reason) changes anything.

When in the process did you turn them? I don’t get why turning the outside after sizing would lead to less runout, since I’d think the bullet straightness would be affected by what the inside neck is like

@joearledge1

Жыл бұрын

Neck turning theoretically leads to a cleaner release of the bullet during firing buy increasing the consistency of the neck hitting the chamber wall. Contrary to what would "make sense" even to me, several things have been shown to make little to no difference in group size, SD, or ES, even by the top competition shooters. Among these are concentrisity (unless the bullet is cocked off at a 15 degree angle) and primer pocket reeming/ uniforming. I want to believe that concentrisity affects quality, but the data from multiple sources highly suggest otherwise.

@borbonic

Жыл бұрын

Concentricity is improved by neck turning in order to allow the bullet to line up with the barrel is the reason as I understand

@PastaLaVista.

Жыл бұрын

@@joearledge1 never heard of concentricity not mattering. Can you point me to where you saw that? I just got a gauge too lol

@joearledge1

Жыл бұрын

@@PastaLaVista. lol yeah I still want a gauge, but the data is pretty strong against it. Give me a few and I'll see if I can track down some links. I'm pretty sure bolt action reloading and johnnys reloading bench have done concentrisity tests where they compare most run out to least run out in a batch of ammo. There's definitely a few more too. Primer seating depth seems to matter (random fyi) based on data. Since you already have the gauge you can also run your own test on reloads and factory ammo to see if you come up with a different answer. But I'll be back in a few with those sources.

@joearledge1

Жыл бұрын

@@borbonic that's part of it too, in theory

I would comment "Avoid neck turning at all costs." Royal pain with basic tools. It's very much worth the extra cost to purchase brass that dose not require neck turning. I think you can tell how much I hate neck turning. Same goes for inside neck reaming.

Also in some circumstances do you think it would be better to neck size instead of neck turn? 🤓

But do any of those more consistent numbers make for tighter groups on paper? I haven’t seen evidence that it does.

@terrycoombs7693

Жыл бұрын

It did for me ... 45 years ago . But with today's modern machining methods and tighter tolerances I just don't know . My newest firearm is over 40 years old ...

Considering other top shooters have run concentricy testing and proven it doesn't matter. Case turning could realistically only help with neck tension.

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

HI James, I have a couple thoughts on this. First, in general, I agree with your statement, but I try to remember how biased I am to want to believe something that I want to be true without testing it myself. what keeps me up at night: 1 - no one publishes these results. (or at least I have not found any real significant data sets out there to see) not saying anyone is lying but things like this need to be quantified. I don't believe that one can make blanket statements that it makes no difference if you don't know those details. Are any of these top shooters using equipment to reload that really gives reloads that have .010" of TIR? Personally I doubt it. Why would they be using a $1300 press and $500 dies if it didn't matter at all. 2- There has to be some limit too this. You can't chamber a round that looks like a banana. Knowing what that limit is, should be important. (to someone)

Can you show the tool or give us the name of the tool you used to measure down to .00126?

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

HI John I dropped a link into the description box for you. The one I show is Igaging.

@JohnSmith-fi2gu

Жыл бұрын

@BoltActionReloading awesome thanks so much. Thinking about starting neck turning but have been on the fence about it for a few years

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

Hi John, I am probably going to look at some additional options in the new year. I really think there are a lot of things to concentrate on first before neck turning. Good luck either way.

I think you need to invest in a IDOD neck turning machine. For science 😄

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

I had thought about trying to figure out a way to do it, but I really don't think I can bring a whole lot of value with the info. If it works great some will cheer, if it doesn't make a lot of difference you get told you don't know what your doing. Certainly a very neat piece of equipment.

Whitney Houston: “And IIIIIIIIEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIII Will never neck turn EEEEEEIIIII will never neck turn”

What are your thoughts on inside case neck turnning?

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

Other than a Wilson inside case reamer or the IDOD what would you use?

@sjohnson1776

Жыл бұрын

@@BoltActionReloading I have a Forster reamer that can be held by a case trimmer. The theory is in a fired case, any excess material is pushed inside the neck. The reamer removes it (supposedly) making the neck more consistent. I don't know if I'm accomplishing anything positive or not.

@BoltActionReloading

Жыл бұрын

I have the le Wilson version of the same thing. It's on the schedule at some point.

Turning the out side does nothing for the seating force . You must true the inside of the brass . For straightness

I think neck turning brass is an okay idea. The problem is they're turning the WRONG SIDE. They need to be turning the inside of the case, not the outside. Or better yet, turn both sides.

"thin to win"?

Dude, neck turning relates to bushing dies or if you are lucky enough have a IDOD,. S & comp type dies really on OD concentrate for bushing dies to work

I will never buy a cartridge that requires neck turning. I have better things to do with my mind.

I thought about this for ages and have come up with this. Neck turning is no good. Using a Lee Collet die and getting uniformity that way is WAYY more important because when you stop to think about it, all the action happens INSIDE the rifle cartridge and through the inside of the neck not on the outside.

You wouldn't tell the difference until you got out to 1000yds or more hunting purposes I bet you cant tell the difference at least in the size of you of your groups my opinion. If you are going to Olympics I would consider neck turning .

Better Performance with SAC bushings? kzread.info/dash/bejne/dmZ7x8txh9KchaQ.html

The time it would take and cost of equipment to neck turn my brass wouldn't make any difference to the game I shoot out to 1000 yards and would rather spend my time out in the field. It seems someone would have to be pretty anal retentive to neck turn for hunting rounds.

I wasn't particularly keen before I knew what is involved, and that's going to be an emphatic "oh hell no" after being educated. I'll pass, thank you.

Only if ya buy inferior brass.

Your not doing it right , the cutter needs to come right down onto the shoulder just a slight scrape so you are sure you have done all the neck and not creating a doughnut . If your neck turning for a factory chamber then you are increasing the gap between the case neck and the wall of the chamber and that can negate any advantage of extra concentric brass because the case lays in the bottom of the chamber in a sloppy factory chamber . Also you don't want to turn off too much brass for a factory chamber just a skim neck turn is all you need . Clean up about 75% only . The trick to get the neck turn advantage is partial neck sizing so a small section of the case neck is never sized . Using a Redding body die and a Lee collet die or a Bushing neck sizer die . The small second shoulder remains full chamber diameter for the life of the case . Mainly only suitable for bolt action rifles .

I am sorry to say that you lack experience in accuracy hand loading ie neck turning and are on the wrong track about some of the subject of neck turning for the " factory chamber " . You don't want to turn the whole neck diameter 100% clean up it unproductive and wastes neck wall thickness . Your not loading for a tight neck chamber . Only need to clean up about 75% of the case neck diameter . The remainder that is not turned will straighten up upon first fire forming . Re-turning on the same setting after a few firings will clean them up even more . The more brass you turn off the greater the gap is between the loaded round neck diameter and the chamber wall before firing . This is a negative for case alignment but can be fixed , with partial neck sizing and body die sizing . This creates a slight second shoulder at the case neck shoulder junction ( not a ridge ) after the first firing , that never gets sized down for the life of the case . This regains the lost case alignment . You are not turning down far enough onto the case shoulder and are at risk of creating a doughnut inside the case neck upon firing . Any ridge on the outside goes inside upon firing . The process for a factory chamber is way different to whats needed in a tight neck chamber rifle . Turning does give seating and run out advantages as you say but the advantage is lost if you don't also practice partial neck sizing in a factory chamber .

I wish I could get that 4 minutes of my time back

Turning inside of the neck gives better results. Its the part that actually contacts the bullet.

Remington cases are the worst

@Iscariot18

Жыл бұрын

Throw winchester in there too.

If your not turning the inside it's a waist of time. The bullet releases from the inside of the neck.