Make sure to like this video, share, and subscribe if you haven't! God bless!

I am GMC clergy. I can only speak to what was happening in my conference, but we did try to fight it when we won the vote in 2019. There were a myriad of problems that made the fight nearly impossible. The entirety of the episcopacy is extremely liberal. There were procedures for addressing violations of the Discipline, but there was no mechanism for addressing a bishop who would not entertain charges. In my conference, we had elders who were openly performing gay weddings in UMC churches. Our bishop was very open about not entertaining any charges that were being brought against the rogue clergy. the UMC is a very top-heavy bureaucracy that has a deeply entrenched liberal leadership structure. That being said, there was very little option to reprimand clergy who were breaking Discipline, even if there were bishops who were willing to do so (which there were not). The liberal social justice agenda had been so fully entrenched in the bureaucracy that holding a majority was going to be impossible in the long run. Boards of ministry were populated by liberal idealists who openly rejected clergy candidates with any conservative bent to their theology while celebrating the ordination of all sorts of liberal idealists who had no sort of Biblical grounding. Within 10 years all the conservative clergy would be retired and the Wesleyan Methodist movement would be dead. Disaffiliating and founding the GMC is a means of saving the Wesleyan theological perspective.

@angelineilan7894

Ай бұрын

Very enlightening explanation based from your long time of service as clergy. Thank you very much @TyWalkenshaw.

While you understood the 2019 GC, you missed a whole lot that happened immediately afterwards. Such as, almost every Bishop and Annual Conference stating that they would NOT abide by the GC decision, thus breaking our covenant. Faced with the fact that those in power would simply do what they wanted with no care toward our Book of Discipline and will of the GC, and that there was no real mechanism in place to hold Bishops accountable, the future for conservatives looked bleak. About the same time Bishop John Yambasu of Sierra Leone called a meeting of leaders of the traditional, centrist and progressive sides of the UMC. This meeting created what is known as the Protocol of Reconciliation and Grace through Separation. In it, the conservative side would leave with grace and without real penalty. This was agreed on by all the leaders and would have been the primary legislation for the 2020 GC. Then COVID came and the conference was cancelled/postponed, minds were changed and the Protocol was dead in the water. Out of this (and NOT before it), the GMC was created. Any discussion of why the GMC should or shouldn't have been formed NEEDS to include an understanding of all of this (and, BTW, all of this information can easily be found on the GMC wikipedia page).

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

I am aware of that. They didn't want to play by the rules. But that doesn't stop us from being faithful while remaining.

@angelineilan7894

Ай бұрын

Thank you for explaining. 👍With much appreciation.😊

@PastorChrisNauta

Ай бұрын

@@methodministries Faithful to what, exactly? A broken covenant? We were faithful to Christ by leaving an apostate church with an abusive and dictatorial bureaucracy. And while we patiently waited through the process given us to leave (and enduring the slander, lies and mischaracterization), we remained faithful to what the church was even though it wasn't that way anymore.

Shout out to Redeemed Zoomer! Good video. I am a conservative in the PCUSA and videos like this help the reconquista. Share news of the reconquista. We will fight liberalism head on. There is far too much historical significance and institutions (hospitals, universities, etc.) within mainlines. It is easier to retake it rather than start from scratch. In war times, you don’t retreat and start a whole new country from scratch. You fight.

I am grateful that people are out having this conversation. However, got to say that having 8 kids waiting 20 years and 'maybe' we outnumber them just doesn't seem like a legitimate strategy.

It is not retreating when the powers that be actively block participation of the opposition. This is the progressive playbook. The African delegates were delayed and/or denied participation in the Assembly. The word racism is over used but if this is not racism what is?

The GMC was never affiliated with the UMC. It did not actually "split off". Many disaffiliated former UMC churches HAVE joined the GMC, and many have NOT. The formation of the GMC was vital as a way for disaffiliating churches & others to unify with an assured conservative, Biblical, Wesleyan Methodist denomination. Leaving the UMC, in America, was up to each individual congregation and NONE were recruited by the GMC.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

We're aware the GMC wasn't a "spilt off" in that sense. We're using it to refer to those who are Conservative Methodists.

@bamyers08

Ай бұрын

@@methodministriesyou’re using it incorrectly though.

Some of us have chosen to remain independent & have built & bolstered relationships with local sister churches.

@nunagoras

Ай бұрын

Yeah. As far as I know some ~2500 Churches out of the ~7500 that broke from the UMC didn't endorse GMC, which for me, as an absolute outsider is such a little mystery. So let us see: Basically all the Churches that left UMC are like minded with the ones that formed GMC, so why don't they simply followed suit in the same direction, save for those perhaps many ones still dealing with both denominational or state side bureaucracy? Either way: My unique answers would be: Or they're pentecostal megachurches that feel they can survive better alone than joint in just another bureaucratic structure, or they simply are too small to even consider anything other than continue their ministry till their current minister is able to, and then close doors. Am I right? Either way; GMC is the unique well succeeded body created out of the "gay schisms" done on all the "mainline protestant 7 sister Churches". It is also the unique one that is here to stay. None of their Churches will ever consider returning UMC. Possibly they'll also to absorb all the other movements brought by the other failed schisms because those were very small in nature. When all the dust is settled and all the consolidation is finished, maybe in 5-10 years from now, I believe GMC will perhaps to be such a 10k to 15k Parishes, 2 to 3 million baptized members organization with a somewhat multicultural and quite diverse theological traditions joint together on a same "smart conservative" umbrella and one of the 10 largest denominations in the US. That will have its consequences to all the US ecumenical world, and to the global one as well once they're having such a relatively well succeeded presence here in Europe too and elsewhere.

I am an outsider to the UMC. I knew that the UMC was a doomed institution somewhere between 1998 and 2003. I remember the fight over making the language of the Trinity gender inclusive, the conflict to promote openly "celebate" gay clergy, the push to make those clergy bishops, the elevation of the first openly lesbian bishop, the internal conflicts concerning the blessing of abortion clinics, homosexual couplings, and more. I remember when they started holding special services to bless people's pets just to get people into pews. Being on the upper end of the Millenial generation, I witnessed this fall. In 1990-1991, my maternal Grandfather became a member of his local UMC congregation, because it was not as authoritarian as the Catholics, emotional as the Pentecostals, or as strict as the Southern Baptists. He joined because the UMC was lax. The UMC has rotted for more than 50 years. The fight over homosexuality should have been one in 1969, not in 2019. The authority of Scripture should have been won at the merger, not over the next 60 years. The exclusivity of Christ should not have ever risen for discussion. The GMC has only rolled the ball back to 2004. If it wants to survive as an institution, it needs to roll the ball back to 1920 and chart a new course.

I have yet to see a real, workable alternative plan of action from a person who thinks that traditional Christians choosing to leave the denomination was "giving up," "backing off," or "cowardice." When the bishops and most clergy announce that they will continue to do what they want regardless of the vote at general conference; when ordination candidates who uphold traditional Christian views will not be approved; when current clergy who espouse an orthodox understanding of human sexuality are removed from their appointments; when bishops will decline to hear charges made against clergy who violate their ordination vows when those violations are in the pursuit of the progressive agenda; and when, most importantly, the only way to hold any of these covenant-breakers accountable requires action and consent from other covenant-breakers who are also fully committed to the progressive cause, what precisely are you recommending that faithful Christians do within that organization? Churches and individuals who left did not back off or give up. They obeyed the Biblical command in Matthew 10:14 and Paul's example in Acts18:6. The decision to leave, whether made by a congregation or an individual, took much prayer, discernment, sacrifice, and yes, courage. They boldly proclaimed that the institution which calls itself the United Methodist Church is corrupt to its core and unsalvageable, despite in many cases great cost to themselves and their congregations. They boldly proclaimed that they would no longer financially support covenant breakers who refuse to uphold vows they made to the body of the church. They boldly proclaimed that they would not continue to fund leadership that acts in a profoundly un-Christian manner or support anti-Christian social projects. They boldly proclaimed that making disciples and preaching the gospel was more important than holding on to material wealth, name recognition, or man-made institutions.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

Have you looked into Reconquista? By Redeemed Zoomer? He offers an alternative.

@Amavera

Ай бұрын

@@methodministries I have listened to quite a lot of his content, but no, he does not provide a workable alternative, at least as far as the polity of the United Methodist Church is involved. I don't know enough about the structure of other denominations to comment on what may or may not be workable within those institutions. I really wish you would have consulted someone who is intimately familiar with this conflict, the leadership structure of the UMC, and the formation of the GMC before sharing this commentary. It is well and good to say "just hold on to power and kick them out" but you don't have enough information to understand that there is *no* mechanism by which to do that within the UMC. There are also many aspects of this 2024* conference you seem to be unaware of: for example, this conference, while held in 2024, was technically the postponed 2020 conference, meaning the delegates in attendance were chosen prior to the formation of the GMC or mass disaffiliations. While surely there were some traditional leaning delegates who were initially elected to attend and subsequently left the denomination, it is not true that all disaffiliated churches *would have* had a voice at this conference if they hadn't left. There's also the issue of how delegates to GC are selected, which goes back to the same issue with apostate bishops and clergy and no way to hold them accountable. I say this in love, as neither a boomer nor a millenial: while it's true that often pride is involved when older people tell younger that they've been there, done that, and it's not worth trying, there's also pride involved when younger people claim they could have and would have done differently and with better results, especially when those younger folks manifestly do not know all of the details about the specific situation they are criticizing. One final thought, that I hope you will take as a gentle admonition in the spirit of Christian love: I would characterize the use of power, especially in the way necessary to combat the "dirty fighting" of current UMC leadership, as a very worldly pursuit. Youthful idealism is wonderful and should be a force for the spreading of the gospel, but youthful idealism is not immune to the corrupting force of power and must be carefully tempered by biblical humility. God's church is not the same as the huge bureaucratic church-ish man-made institutions. Matching the apostate energy and tactics by using political power in order to keep fighting to hold onto those institutions is very much "conforming to this world," and very dangerous for Christians who are meant to behave in an entirely different manner.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

@@Amavera I was aware of the GC being postponed, as well as the dirty tactics played, and the visa issues with the Africans delegates. All the more reason to be solid in our faith and not give an inch.

@Amavera

Ай бұрын

@@methodministries I think you misunderstood my point about the significance of the delayed conference. Regardless, you are still operating from a fundamental misconception: that standing solid in one's faith requires remaining tethered to dishonest leadership in failing institutions. There is no biblical support for linking those two things together and an awful lot of support for separating ourselves from those who have proven themselves to be acting in bad faith and preaching a false gospel. I wish you peace as you continue to grow and study, both on this issue in particular and in your faith as a whole.

The issue with ordaining gay ministers and elders has been going on in the UMC since the 70's. The conservatives may have won the votes, but the conferences were assigning openly gay ministers to conservative congregations, and they weren't going to stop flouting the so called "wins". Unfortunately, too many straight UMC ministers were not gospel believing, bible believing preachers (as you said "wolves in sheep's clothing) so what is the point of supporting them? 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 and 2 John vss. 7-11 applies both to individuals and congregations.

One thing you misunderstand is that 2019 was a highmark in the UMC in the General Conference for conservative power. It was a razor's edge majority, not a strong win. But the actions of the liberal side of the UMC led to the movement giving birth to the GMC. In the US, the liberals were in power, and that got stronger in response to the 2019 GC. The delegation of the US General Conference was stacked in favor of progressives. They literally took over. For instance, in conservative NC, the voting for General Conference delegates went roughly 60-40 progressive, BUT the result of that was that the slate elected to go to General Conference was 100% progressive. My point is that the leadership across the US was almost exclusively progressive. The Bishops- progressive. The upcoming General Conference- progressive. The leaders of our boards, agencies, seminaries... all progressive. We all saw in 2020 that the General Conference coming up would do exactly what they did. And we were powerless to not be swept up in that, as far as the formal UMC. So the Conservatives did not have the power that you speak of.

@PaulDunham68

Ай бұрын

Also, the GMC is experiencing renewal and revival. Having been to a UMC Annual Conference and a GMC Annual Conference- one was filled with politics, grief, strife, division; one was filled with worship, prayer, renewal, GOSPEL, and JESUS, JESUS, JESUS!

There are people at rock bottom in the highways and hedges that are in need of our spiritual labor more than the ones in the pews in willfull disobedience.

PLEASE Correct me if I'm wrong ...but the problem was that even though the restrictive language was in the Book of Discipline... they were not following/obeying it, and even more, they were not being disciplined by bishops when they did not. Also having to defend the Bible every single Sunday and general conference in a Christian denomination is just insane. Plus why why why would you wish to continue giving money through "connection" to help support anti Biblical teaching?

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

Yes, they weren’t following it. But that’s why it’s important to be as firm as them in God’s Word. Their unfaithfulness doesn’t affect our faithfulness.

Good talk. Also. I'm praying for both of you in your upcoming debate today.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

Thank you so much, Brother! It means a lot!

I think even if the separation was needed, a better planned exit should have happened. Sticking around if not to prevent change, then to make an easy path to leave rather than jamming through under 2553, which was so limited. So many resources are being lost because the churches that could afford to just pay out left, many will simply close. Smaller churches didn't always have a way out financially yet in such a short period of time. In military terms, the big powerful conservative churches did retreat, and they should have retrograded in an organized planned way, if not stay an fight.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

I read your comment and thought of America pulling out of Afghan. It was clearly the wrong way to leave!

After seeing this happen in other denominations, this is the one that confused me the most. This is the one that I would consider most retreatist. When my church went from UMC to GMC, I was very against it. But from what I can tell we were some of the last to leave, so the damage was already done. I'm struggling not to resent the first churches to leave, but I've been praying to be able to forgive them since.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

I understand. This is also why I mentioned that what done is done, and pressing forward, we can learn and make improvements. You can still serve God's people in the GMC.

@PaulDunham68

Ай бұрын

That's not exactly what happened. The Churches who left first were generally responding to pressure from their liberal UMC Conference leadership.

@Hylian_Herald

Ай бұрын

@@PaulDunham68 After winning the vote, there was no reason to respond in that way. I don't care if there was pressure. We had the numbers to keep going, and chose not to. To me, that's cowardice. We need spiritual warriors, not people that LISTEN when the enemy tells us to back off.

@Amavera

Ай бұрын

​@@Hylian_Herald With love, you do not understand the structure of the UMC. Yes, traditionalists won the vote in 2019, but when the bishops and clergy declared openly that they would not abide by the result of the vote, winning or not became irrelevant. There is no means within the denomination to hold those leaders accountable. There is no means within the denomination to change the accountability procedures without the consent and participation of the very bishops who refused to abide by the vote.

It wasn’t a retreat! It was a smart move. What seems to be under reported is that over the past 10+ years almost every Bishop and other positions of power and control were secured by the far left. Since 2019 they very quickly concentrated their control on process and literally silenced the traditionalists.

I'm stunned that someone like Redeemed Zoomer, who isn't even 25 if I remember correctly, can give such a clear and accurate message that thousands of Christian pastors, leaders and PhDs did not. He's a very sharp young man but this is quite shocking.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

Agree!

My dad is a retired United Methodist pastor that disaffiated from the UMC and re-affiliated with the GMC after it started. We talk about this issue every once in a while and the thing that I just can't wrap my head around is that not just that the conservative don't want to do battle. I think the issue is deeper than that. I believe that conservatives don't believe in these institutions that we made over the course of decades and centuries. I know for my dad that the only thing that matters is that we adhere to the Bible, but he doesn't like the institutions, and I think a lot of people think like that. There is no way to stand firm in any society without the structure of an institution, otherwise you will fall apart. I hope both the UMC and GMC do well (I believe while misguided and oft incorrect in their reading of the Bible, liberal churches do serve an important function), but if the conservatives actually wanted to win, they would've held the historically important UMC hostage from their liberal brethren.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

That's a great point you bring up that many Conservatives don't believe in institutions and therefore, give them up or don't battle for them, while the Left is completely bought into them, and make the necessary sacrifices to take them over.

When Yeshua returns we need to be busy following Yah’s Word., promoting the Kingdom, and disconnecting from all worldly Satan influenced institutions.

To refer to it as ‘retreatism’ is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of reality. I listened to the point that the discussion about the timeline for the disaffiliation allowed under 2525 was discussed as ‘possibly 2010 or a little later’. In 2019 the traditional caucus held a slim majority. Part of that majority relied on African participation. The UMC 2024 did not hold the 2024 General Conference in 2024. They held the 2020 General Conference in 2024. Why does that matter? The African participation was set to increase after 2020. By holding the 2020 General Conference, they suppressed the African participation. They further exacerbated the problem by failing to send out necessary documents to many African delegates in a timely manner which made their being able to secure visas to travel to the US impossible. Again, all to suppress traditional votes. Following the election of 2020 delegates, the writing was on the wall that the battle was lost. If you want to call it ‘retreatism’ to decide to not fight a losing battle, you are free to do so. I just hope you are never in a position of leadership where you will continue to pour time and resources into lost causes with no hope. I guess you could be like those Japanese soldiers who retreated into the jungles of remote islands and failed to acknowledge the surrender of Japan ending WWII. We could have pitied you in 20 or so years for your naivety.

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

I’m aware of the sins you’ve listed that the Progressives did. Which is why we also need to bunker down and not play by their rules: if they tell us you gotta marry two men, we don’t comply! “But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge” (Acts 4:19).

@bamyers08

Ай бұрын

@@methodministriesI think it’s rather sad and unhealthy, spiritually, to keep fighting over an issue that the other side doesn’t seem to want to budge on. I’m glad the GMC did what they did. Progressives only care about taking over long established institutions. They just wanted the UMC brand. That’s why they infiltrated the Boy Scouts, so that today they’re going to be called “Scouting America” I believe. Are you apart of the UMC?

Caveat: I am a Lutheran (ELCA)... A traditional/conservative/"Confessional" Pastor serving in a wayward, progressive denomination. We went through our division in the wake of a 2009 decision that, at the time, seemed like a sweeping decision to ordain non-celibate gays and lesbians and allow for "same sex weddings." When the "Conservatives" left, the "battlefield" changed completely and those of us who are left have no chance to counter-act or oppose things when it comes to "denominational" matters. I'll be honest: I kind of understand leaving. You get tired of the fight after a while. But the question has to be: "Who will care for the faithful people left behind?" I have decided to "stay" because there ARE faithful Christians left in my parishes who need to hear the Gospel, be nourished by the Sacraments, and be encouraged to live a Christian life. The words of the sage Gamaliel in Acts (the Acts of the Apostles) comes to mind: "If they are not of God they cannot succeed, if they are of God you will not be able to stop them." In leaving, the GMC...the ACNA...the NALC...etc...are, in one sense, now free to pursue a Godly mission. And, likewise, the ELCA, the UMC, the TEC, etc...are likewise now free to pursue what they see as righteous. But what of the souls left behind? What of the people who can't leave (because of finances, distance, family, etc...)?

@methodministries

Ай бұрын

That's wise to think of those who will be left behind who have no faithful Christians. I commend your stance!

@russ254

Ай бұрын

“can’t leave” - what nonsense. meet in a house, or a tent, behind a tree, in a cave, in a garage, in a parking lot, at a park, on a phone, or right where you are standing. christianity is growing in africa, where it’s hot, things are further, more broken, primitive, and filled with tigers and “urban youth.”

@colosseumbuilders4768

Ай бұрын

My once thriving orthodox, Lutheran, standing room only on Sunday, thought they could survived the merger into the ECLA. (I moved away). Now they are down to two pews of grayhairs on Sundays. The former pastor of one of our local ELCA establishments was considered a leader of the orthodox wing of the ELCA. He thought he could continue the fight. After he retired, his former church went totally woke.

@nunagoras

Ай бұрын

Quite a thought provoking remark dear Reverend, even though I can myself to be considered a "progressive" by your standards. I'm just an ecumenical minded Roman Catholic out there with a deep interest in Ecumenical relations and Ecumenical worship. Think Taizé community, that's exactly where I stand spiritually these days in my faith journey. And all has started, curiously when both the pandemic has hit the world and that ugly pedo Priests scandal started to affect my local Catholic Church. Fortunately we have this marvelous thing named KZread that saved us during that said time. I got early retirement over health conditions that time, and I started to use some of my tons of free time to actually watch US based mainline Protestant services from elsewhere a Pastor would make it available to their communities. It should have been said elsewhere that, while in paper all those Churches are now that "woke paradise" their websites would make us to believe they're... Reality is not that black and white whatsoever, and those denominations "conservative sides" should have been attentive enough to that in order to not over stress what by the most part should haven't been over stressed, if not for other reasons, for your own ones: Not let your vulnerable people behind. Yeah: We have those "rainbow flag" Parishes here and there coupled with their gay weddings. Yep; we have those "alternative" creed Parishes here and there. Yay; we have some of those over the top bad examples of what a Church should never be, and the odd anti-Christian Preaching being made here or there. As far as things went; I noticed that those "bad fruits" were mostly coming out of California, with due respect to people living there, but it is from where most of those what I can call "clown cults" were coming out from and they were just a very TINY MINORITY of them!... So; what were the other 99% of them? Basically the same thing I'd expect from EVERY of my own moderate conservative-to-progressive Priests of the mid 70's to the mid 90's last century! By and large a Mainline Protestant service resembles mostly what a Novus Ordo Roman Catholic Holly Mass used to be and still is these days, save for the current old-fashioned TLM like, aberrant conservative, pulpit far-right warrior younger Catholic Priests generation!... Mainline Churches have basically same theology, same Preaching and same music as their Catholic counterpart!... If it wasn't for the usual women Priest or Deacon and I'd think we would be talking about the same reality!... Most Parishes should have been Roman Catholic ones! That said all this debacle surprises me the most. The world is evolving, but Christians are revolving within their own inside. None of the sides of the pound will end well on that, of course. Meanwhile; I hope that in 4-8 years term, done the current Trump "bubble" things will one or the other way to calm down. No need for separation, when most of what we have... Is basically the same calm and still sort of being Church for the current world. Have a wonderful day!...

Do you really think ending slavery and Protestantism were both inherently conservative? Come on…

Here's the thing, we need a better way to frame the Bible that is faithful and brutally honest. I absolutely didn't come to my faith through the normal channels. I came into my faith through the synthesizing of modern physics, mathematical probabilities and the Bible. I started listening to biblical academics, who by the way, craft a far more compelling tail than your average pastor. If we're not willing to update our narrative then we're going keep losing to the progressives, occultists and atheists.

This sounds very utopian, but the fact is that remaining in a United Methodist church means that your tithes/offerings will now go to support things that you do not agree with.

I am a member of the Global Methodist Church, and I lead my church out of the UMC. I don’t know what credentials you have or what experience you have firsthand with the entire situation. That being said, I think you’re very poorly informed. Yes the conservatives won the vote in 2019, but Bishops took out full page ads in local newspaper saying that they were not going to follow what the conference had voted on. They basically said “we don’t care, do what you want, no one is going to be punished if charges are levied. Paragraph 2553 was written for the progressives to leave. They do not want to leave. They want that brand. They want to stay the “United Methodist Church” they don’t care if it’s truly united or not. That’s part of the whole progressive agenda to capture the institutions. Also many of the progressive groups in the UMC got donations from George Soros and other progressive billionaires as well. Also, why keep fighting over the same thing over and over and over? Could conservatives take back the UMC, yes. But the brand is ruined, tainted, maligned. Why fight over the brand when you can create a new institution that is rooting in Biblical truth and orthodoxy. The GMC leadership knows what worked, what didn’t work and what things could be improved upon from their time in the UMC. I think you are doing your listeners a terrible disservice by not being fully informed. The writing was on the wall. In my opinion I think for you to call it retreatism is very disingenuous. Based on your discussion, I can surmise that you’re probably not a part of the UMC at all. If you talked to Jeff Rickman, I don’t believe you asked him enough questions. Jeff Rickman is spot on when it comes to his analysis of the whole situation, I think. If you watched his live streams or commentary of the general conference, he is 100% correct in his assessment of what was going on, in my humble opinion. What should really be discussed and made public is how the UMC progressives purposefully, in my opinion, cheated the entire continent of Africa out of fair representation. They totally disenfranchised them! They want to say that they’re so tolerant and all that stuff on the progressive side but they don’t care about anyone else but themselves and their agenda. They’re classic narcissists.

I like what you're trying to do, but you need to get a better understanding of the facts to do it well.