I think the person who starts searching for a different OS, is not an average computer user to begin with. So I'm not sure that limiting their choices or removing Linux from a name would be of any benefit. I'm personally very happy Mint has the 3 different offerings 'cause otherwise I would probably never have tried my, now favourite desktop which is XFCE.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, for me the overarching thing is adoption more than anything else. I just don't know why more people don't use this as their regular operating system, it's simply better.

I certainly see the point here. And for my wife introducing her to linux I kept things simple.... KISS is a great mentality when introducing people to something new. They don't care what powers the OS - they care the OS works.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

That's what it gets down to, that the OS works and for most people that means not having to think about it too much at all

I like the fact that there are options, I agree that the sea of options may be daunting to a new user. I use Mate because I suspect my PC would not run as well with Cinnamon, thanks for continuing to spread awareness of Linux even if I might have a difference of opinion.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Whatever works for you, having options is nice.

If I was a developer and was making a large program to sell and offer support, I would have these 3 major options. An OS that has a major update year by year with features added and removed by that company's will. An OS that has a wide variety of codebases from a wide variety of companies and organizations. Or an OS that with one perpetual license, doesn't make major fundamental changes for 7-10 years and even has a focus on backwards compatibility. Forget marketshare, if you only have to worry about one OS ecosystem which one should someone choose? Especially if they put in a lot of time and money into that program as well as the money needed for support?

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

True, all true.

One of the reasons I left Windows for good is because they became too monolithic and didn't offer enough freedom of choice. Some people are saying they're switching to Linux once support for Windows 10 runs out because their current hardware won't support Windows 11, and they don't want to be forced to upgrade or buy a new computer. I wish Linux marketing was better at enticing people away from Windows, but that's hard to do when Windows comes pre-installed on nearly every PC sold to individuals or businesses. I'm not a fan of any company having that much of a monopoly. I view Linux as the Baskin Robbins of the OS world... so many flavors. How boring would it be if every ice cream vendor only offered chocolate or vanilla, and no toppings whatsoever? In the past 20 years Linux has advanced by leaps and bounds, while Windows just gets more flashy, restrictive. and controlling.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You have to admire the nature of Linux developers, doing what they do with little or no recognition while creating something that's really good. Certainly better than Windows for sure.

@peterschmidt9942

5 ай бұрын

Google is already pumping out the "move to Chrome OS flex when Windows 10 support ends". I wish Linux would do the same. I think in the last 2yrs, Linux has developed so much more than it has in the last 20yrs. Things are just working better than they ever have.

The community wastes time with distros and desktop environments. Software is what is needed. I want to do 3D modeling of a building in FreeCAD from preliminary design to construction documents. I don't care that an app doesn't respect the damn theme of my desktop.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Getting to do CAD on that is something I probably wouldn't trust, does it work for you?

I think ideally it should be both. There should be distributions that are very user friendly and I also think there should be distros that aren't. As long as there's a clear go-to for those who just want something simple and easy, that's fine. It's a lot like cars. Some people want to tinker with their car, most people don't. But it should always be easy to pop the hood and get tinkering. That's where I think Apple and Microsoft are going wrong. They're removing the option for the user to modify their own property and I'm strongly against that.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You make some really good points there. Apple and Microsoft don't let you play around with it. If they did even a little bit, that would be good. Perhaps there has to be both ways in Linux, but make very clear for new users that this small group of distributions is really for them starting out.

@colerche

5 ай бұрын

Lot of info about this on the 'net.

I fell into Zorin, but really, for someone to start on Linux, you can bet no matter how much willingness there is to learn command line, GUI and familiarity are unique. I started out not liking KDE and trying to use Nobara. I liked the customized GNOME for a bit. Didn't scale well for Steam though. Then I started installing DE's like they were candy. For a good while I liked cinnamon. Then I tried pop. And mint. I gave up for a while and retreated to Windows. 11 came out and the ads got worse, and my hardware doesn't have the TPM to support it. So I went back. Then I started trying a good dozen before discovering Zorin was good for games and basic appearance. I decided KDE was less glitchy than GNOME for what I wanted, so I installed that. And let it be. And I've been having a great time, once i killed a bug that was eating my drive. So with the 'Buntu styles, I think it has the greatest potential for someone to make it their own. Will I go back to crashing my system with DE's? Never know. But I'm good for now.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Zoran is an interesting proposition, different from some of the other distributions. It more or less has one offering and it's basic and it's not bad. It's not my favorite or anything but I could see somebody adopting it coming from another operating system

@Basserino84

5 ай бұрын

@@johnishappy oh definitely, Pop OS could have fit just as easily and they're just as limiting. Mint? Played around with it for a while, didn't like how from getting an app to updating you have different windows to go to. That's one thing KDE does well. MX I was thinking about. But there's so many things that until you install on bare metal you don't see. I just got sick of reinstalling due to an ACPI error clogging my system and kernel logs into I fixed it.... on a 9 year old pc. Once I shut that up the experience has been amazing. Was so sick of the ads.

@bradm1507

5 ай бұрын

I haven't tried it in a while, but I appreciate what the Zorin team is trying to do. And, I thought Zorin looked very polished--beautiful wallpapers, smooth animations...it felt professional-grade. Elementary OS felt similar, and I like their emphasis on cohesion, but it seemed a little buggier. And the project's future is too uncertain to recommend it. Mint does a very nice job as well. I"m currently using LMDE with Cinnamon, but before that was using Mint XFCE. I'm not sure which one I like better. I actually like the Gnome workflow, but I don't like the reliance on extensions for what should be built-in functionality. And I hate having to use a theme just to tone down the Fisher-Price buttons and window decorations.

@peterschmidt9942

5 ай бұрын

Much like yourself, after trying various Linux distros for years I came across Zorin that opened my eyes to how well Linux could work (and how much it had advanced over the years). It had a few different iterations of the desktop layout you could play around with and was almost like a stripped down KDE to some extent. And thats when I realised I liked KDE over the many other desktops as things just seemed to work, you could fully customise it without the need to add extra plugins (like gnome). Then it was just about finding a stable distro that had a KDE version.

I understand your 97% vs 3% but that's been an argument since i started linux 14yrs old personally I don't want linux to change for if people want it to be similar to windows mac etc for the sake of simplicity or ease of use then just stick with windows or mac. linux is essentially a tinkers os at heart.To want it to be dumbed down for sake of main stream usage defeats the purpose. I am Biased of course and dont want it to be popular as it will end up like windows or mac if it's to suit the masses.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You do make a good point on that, but it seems to be that a lot of these distributions want to be more popular. That being said, then they need to either go all in with going for the other 97% and don't kid anybody about it.

I believe they should be more for everything in all os for everyone

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Is more always better? In some ways I say yes, but in providing an offering one must narrow down the field to help someone.

hi john no i think they should be just like they are now js

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for getting it said!

Will agree that having a user-friendly distribution well-named and well-advertised would help adoption. I also think that the mindset of "no data mining" might be the push for people to actually use GNU Linux (or a distribution thereof.) But I fear there's a lot of "sheep following sheep" to the overall group of computer users, which is what Microsoft, Google and Apple use to their advantage and their user's detriment.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I agree with the idea of having a new angle that is pushed hard for no data mining. That should mean a lot to people these days, but a lot of times it really doesn't. There's a lot of people who don't care about some of these bigger issues as long as they're not having to think about anything that they're doing on their pc. I just agree with that mindset, I like the idea of being in control and not having telemetry sent back to the mothership.

@BWGPEI

5 ай бұрын

A story from my school years. IBM "helped" Universities acquire their new mainframes. Thus students learned to use and appreciate these units. Come the time these students get to make or influence corporate purchase decisions, guess who they are going to favour, grin - IBM made a lot of sales that way. Now we get iPAd or Chrome books in schools, with I presume similar hopes for follow-on sales. Plus the peer-group pressure pushing students into the Apple or Google camps. Little wonder that GNU Linux is so little used. Seems one has to be older and battle weary to appreciate what a great resource and choices we have available to us with the open-source community.@@johnishappy

zorin was nice i use it on one of my laptops its pretty spolid just use the free version though.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

It is solid, and I like the approach.

Only one Linux distribution has done what you described - KaOS. It’s focus on one desktop and one platform.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Going to go there next then.

Most of these open source projects are not written for "selling" to the mass audience. They were written as a passion project for somebody technical who willed that thing to exist, and shared so that other other people with some of the same needs could use or enhance it further. Linux isn't meant to be my-way-or-the-highway. The fact that enough people have wanted a near-windows replacement to make people like you happy is great...and I'm sure you think your popular Mint solution is the one that should be among the chosen winners...but that doesn't mean that Linux should be consolidated to be only that. Does fragmentation hurt adoption? Yes, it makes it harder and less appealing for third-parties to produce first-class native solutions for Linux. It makes it harder to teach. Embracing the basic work case (let's call it 'windows for free') as a standard would likely increase adoption...but at the same time normalization would make it less attractive to many of the people responsible for all the things that make the GNU/Linux ecosystem what it is. The weird names thing -- criticizing it is easy because for many of us it can be hard to remember them all. But these are not products backed by corporate marketing departments specifically for our english-speaking selves like we're used to having shoveled down our throats. And I think complaining about it is sort of an anglo-centric ugly-Americanism, though I'll admit that sometimes the name of something irrationally affects the way I think about it -- for no good reason at all. Some of these made-up names sound pleasant to me, and some do not.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Different country / markets, different names, naming is important.

Immutable distros might eventually become the answer for the non techie folk. If not already. You want something that's not as prone to breaking and not requiring a lot of technical ability to put back together again. Sure we want newcomers to learn, and like with the terminal and such. But not all have the time or ability to keep finding solutions to problems. I like what Fedora is doing with their Atomic editions, Vanilla OS is doing it with the Ubuntu base, i think OpenSUSE has theirs, and more recently i hear Manjaro is going to have an equivalent of an immutable distro in the form of Manjaro Gaming Edition for the upcoming Orange Pi Neo handheld. What these guys need is more people talking about them and their potential benefits to the mainstream over just talking about the technical underpinnings of them. For the mainstream, you want something kinda locked down a bit like a console but with a degree of openness like a traditional PC OS so they can install a wide variety of software from at least a more protected place like Snaps or Flathub. Initially if i recall, these kinds of distros were marketed more to developers. But i think it's going to move away from that as they develop and the benefits such as these become known. Looks like it. Maybe eventually from that, we'll learn to market a particular distro like these more to the less techie folk and narrow it down to maybe just one or two of them to most recommend.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

It will take a new kind of effort, not done before...

Unfortunately, I think Linux does a poor job of explaining itself on why you'd use it over Windows/Mac or how to even pick a distro - because everyone's distro is the "best" according to the maintainers LOL. Although with so many videos now on YT, it certainly helps. And I think Linux Mint has always done a fairly good job of explaining things - that's why a lot of people jumping over to Linux enjoy it. They do fly the flag for their Cinnamon desktop as preferred, but have Mate for Win7 fans and XFCE for much older systems as it's light on resources. When I first started using Linux 20 yrs ago (when Ubuntu used to mail out CDs - yep), I thought that's all there was. Even maybe 10yrs ago, I didn't know there were different desktops! I just though they were different distributions (that's when I tried the Linux Mints, Ubuntu Studio, OpenSUSE). And back then, Linux was hard to install to the point I had to write things down and jot notes on partitioning, swap files, drive formats etc. The desktops were also generally buggy, so fart arsing around trying to grab the side of a windows with a mouse didn't appeal to me. It wasn't until a few years back I really dug down into it and tried many variations (Debian, Arch, Fedora) and different desktops to appreciate it for what it is (It didn't hurt either that I had a "raspberry pi 3" years ago too that had a Linux install for retro games 😁) Now that I'm accustomed to the way things work in Linux through some trial and error, I don't necessarily think having a one size fits all approach to Linux is always the answer - it's definitely more complicated than that. It's great there's half a dozen main desktop environments to use and fit in with the way individuals work. But as you go through distro's you realise 70% are similar to each other (especially Debian based distros) to the point it's only a different theme, with minor tweaks here and there (but not all). Its really about finding the right desktop you're comfortable using. With that issue solved, pick a distro that has a version of that DE and have some fun. To tell the truth, we're all spoilt with choice these days.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Well said, you explained the shape of things.

ive worked in sales as well but just in retail electronics, so i understand where you're coming from but i think you're also giving the average consumer a lot of faith. the average technical competency of the general public is astonishingly low. ive heard that it's actually somewhat decreasing as well with gen z rather than increasing, because a lot of students aren't even being exposed to basic computing concepts like directories if their main computer usage has been on phones or chromebooks in school. while i agree the options can be confusing for those who are new to linux, i think adoption is something that just takes time. microsoft has been stagnant with windows for years and in my opinion they've been only making it worse with the features they've decided are important and all the telemetry. the beauty about linux is that if i don't want a distro with telemetry i dont have to choose one, if i dont like gnome i don't have to use it. the fragmentation is what makes linux what it is and gives users options. but lets pretend we were able to convince everyone to democratically vote on one unified direction for linux. there's no guarantee that everyone who current uses linux would be satisfied with it over windows or mac at that point, competition goes both ways. there's also no guarantee that there would even be more people working on it, or that the single distribution would be able to overcome the marketing issues you bring up. i also question what it solves if i'm being completely honest, an average user is probably quite happy on windows or a mac, and i dont think there's anything wrong with that. personally, i dont think linux will ever be an operating system for the average intermediate user. to me there's nothing worth learning that isn't occasionally difficult, but not everyone feels the same way or even thinks about their operating system at all. i mean i remember when i first started using linux I was a fairly tech savvy teen and it must have been ubuntu 10 or so. but back then especially and even still today, it's pretty apparent to me that most users don't have the troubleshooting ability to solve problems on linux. whether it's something like key rebinding software, dependency issues, things aren't always perfect for what an intermediate user wants to do. i think the largest problem that linux has is that its best use cases are for the most and least technically competent people, but the latter won't care that it exists. (im going to give a very broad definition of competent as being anyone who is not scared about typing something into the terminal.) if you use mint and all you're trying to do is browse the web and print a few things on an old desktop, maybe you want to listen to music on spotify, a popular linux distro is no better or worse than any other operating system. the issue is a lot of people have that one gotcha. maybe they need a very specific program for work or some hobby they have, lets just use security camera software as an example since those are common. even if it's something that you could theoretically get installed with wine easily, you're now asking them to go beyond what the majority of users are capable of or interested in learning. these are people who struggle to read and understand menu options in a gui. they're not going to do all that to go to another operating system that does the same things for them as the one they're already using. years ago if you asked more tech savvy windows users why they use windows, a lot of them would probably say things like "i play a lot of games unavailable on linux" or "the video editing software i use is more reliable on windows", at least that has been my experience. these are things that are slowly changing as foss alternatives improve, for example proton is so good now that most of my games play on linux and i havent booted the windows partition in a long time. but these are things that simply take time. what also helps significantly is the support of companies with full time developers who contribute to open source/linux adoption. currently these are companies like amd, valve, and red hat

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You said it well when you said that people's average technical competency is low. Not only that, but the lack of curiosity about that in which they put so much trust in.

Yeah, in a way I started thinking like this more and more. I say "Ubuntu", or "Mint" or "Arch btw". Linux kinda is becoming a megaset of OSes

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I talk to people all the time about Linux, and it usually comes with kind of a blank stare.

Thoughtful video, John. However, the idea that Linux can uniformly march in any one direction presumes "the Linux community" can act as a monolithic governing body with a coherent set of motivations. Basically, it's trying to shoehorn Linux into the standard corporate paradigm where Linux is a product whose producer must care about commercial interests like growing market share and adoption. This exists on the server/enterprise side, but not on the desktop side in any significant way. Sure, some distros are trying to compete with Mac OS and Windows, but there's a reason why the relatively young Chrome OS has more market share than Linux: there's a well-capitalized company behind it that spends money developing, marketing, and selling it. Let's play this out: who is going to decree which Linux distro + desktop environment, etc., should be "the distro" that everyone rallies around and promotes? And once "the distro" is chosen, what is supposed to happen with the other distros? Do they just fold up shop? We've seen this movie before: when Gnome released Gnome Shell, half the Gnome fans said "yeah, no thanks" and 1) continued developing Gnome 2 (MATE), and 2) forked Gnome 3 into Cinnamon. Note, I think the barriers to adoption that you raised are valid as certainly too much choice can overwhelm consumers. But all these options don't exist to give consumers more choice; they're not a response to consumer demand. Rather, they exist because someone wanted to create them *for themselves.* If other people can benefit from them, great. But it not, well then they're free to fork it and modify it as they see fit. That's the beauty of FOSS, but it presents a challenge to users: developers don't answer to them or "market forces." If you use desktop Linux, you're likely an enthusiast: you chose to get past the learning curve and develop some level of proficiency. It's just like PC building: you wouldn't say, "If only there were fewer motherboards, CPUs, cases, etc., more people would build their own PC!" The goal shouldn't be to make Linux like a commercial product as that is doomed from the start. Rather, it's to get more people to have a reason to get past the learning curve. Basically, you have to get people into the hobby, which admittedly is not easy.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Lots of good points here. You make a great case for why it won't happen and that's probably true. So good on all points. I have a dream though.

@bradm1507

5 ай бұрын

@@johnishappy Lol nothing wrong with that! There are a couple scenarios where it could happen. A commercial interest could get behind Linux and effectively do what you said: they pick a distro along with a standard set of "defaults," work with app ISVs to port commercial apps to this specific distro, go win over some clients, etc. Chrome OS did this in the Education space, but the enterprise has been more challenging. Or, a high-profile company can announce they're ditching Windows and standardizing on Linux. This could inspire other companies to do the same, which would then inspire ISVs to seriously consider supporting it. This has happened with some government organizations, but at enough scale to drive enterprises.

@grafik0859

5 ай бұрын

Perfectly said! 😁

@peterschmidt9942

5 ай бұрын

@@bradm1507 There's System 76 making Pop OS to install on their hardware which is a good thing. However until they start getting PCs and laptops into the big box stores with "a" Linux distro on (like they do with Windows and Chrome OS), I can't see it happening. Besides, consumers generally don't even realise they can buy computers without an OS and save themselves a few bucks by not buying it with Windows installed.

@bradm1507

5 ай бұрын

@@peterschmidt9942 I get the big box store argument, but those stores don’t want to take the risk of people returning their hardware because it doesn’t run Office or some Triple-A game.

Ubuntu, right or wrong my distro :) Why Ubuntu? Reliable and up-to-date; standard 5 years maintenance (LTS) and optional 10 years (ESM), one click to start your most used apps and SNAPS :) I run Ubuntu 16.04 ESM with maintenance till 2026. I installed the latest stable snaps of Firefox and LibreOffice in that old Ubuntu from 2016 and they are newer than the same deb-apps in the latest Ubuntu 22.04 LTS and in many other distros. In April I will use the same snaps in 16.04 ESM and 24.04 LTS :) :)

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I don't think it gets as much recognition as it does, people seem to be more negative than they should.

nope, I like having distros without the huge everything subsuming gonculator in them

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

True.

First, you don't have to coax people off of windows. Windows kind of does this itself. What would work, but would be impossible to pull off with the Linux community, is to create a basic distro. One that has the best features of every other distro and requires no more knowledge to operate than Windows does. Keep in mind, most people can't really maneuver through Windows either so it doesn't have to be magical. This one distro would be a community effort and when someone wants to move from windows to Linux, you have the same solution for everyone. After that, keep the same distro environment we have now with all the options we currently have. If the person using ... whatever the distro name is ... wants to play more, they can jump to all the different distros out there like we do now. This gives us the best of all worlds. You get that one single windows replacement and for those more daring, you still have the other versions to play with.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I like the idea, but as you say, impossible to pull off.

Perhaps Mint should rebrand itself as Linux for Humans. I think there is room enough for both, the tech savvy sorts that computers are their hobby and the not so tech person that just uses their computer as a tool to get the job done. But I agree, they should make it easier for people to find what works in their use case.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Thanks so much! I get a lot of negatives on something like this like I kicked a hornet's nest.

I do agree with you about Linux complexity. But that is also its strength. I think this diversity aids innovation in operating systems. Actually, I think the Linux kernel is classed as a monolithic kernel, and Windows is hybrid. I think it would be useful for adoption of Linux if it was one desktop and package manager. But then cars are all different, and we happily buy different ones.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

There's an opportunity for one to break out in this, if they want to...

@1DwtEaUn

5 ай бұрын

not only innovation, but security as it's not a huge monoculture

Hey I am a new Linux user and I just love it. I do not want Linux to be monolithic at all, that means all the curiosity all the passion will be gone. If Mint’s flagship is Cinnamon and MX flagship is XFCE then I might say I like Mint xfce. The reason is I rather able to upgrade the one version to another without installing the whole OS ( I guess for MX it has to be ). As long as the corporate world will use Windows as their main os, nothing will change. They use it because Microsoft is a company and they think it won’t vanish like CentOs tomorrow. Red hat killed CentOS, so mint team is taking precautions so that Canonical ( Ubuntu’s parent company) will not force Mint into same fate. So we have LMDE XFCE.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I do love it as well, if you become experienced in it, I think you like the variety as kind of a plaything. But in order to attract people initially, it almost has to be simplified to a point that Grandma without any education could adopted as well. There are distributions that are aiming that way, Linux mint being one of them and there's others that I talk about in the video. If greater adoption is a goal that these distro developers have, they've got to go for the meat of the curve which is that huge portion of users which have never tried it before and are sick of windows..

@wayjamus2775

5 ай бұрын

@@johnishappyI absolutely agree with you. I still have Windows 7 but am dual booting with Ubuntu. I also have Windows 10 on another machine and Windows 11 on my new laptop which I have been afraid to go online with because I'm sick of the updates messing stuff up. But I've had update issues with Ubuntu. It was relatively stable on Ubuntu 16 but it's been messed up since updating to 18 and they haven't gone away now that I'm on 22.04. So now 23.01 is supposed to be the bees knees but I've also downloaded Mint which I might experiment with. I just want something that works which I've heard Mint described as and that's all I want. I get dizzy with all the distros, every one being the best etc. I just want to switch out, I don't want to learn a new language, I don't want the updates to mess with my settings etc. A single distro that is stable, works with applications the average person uses, and has support from people who actually empathize with newer users I think would kick a$$.

totally agree linux naming is the biggest downfall.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

There's a reason why Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak named Apple, Apple.

Hi John I started in 83 with Unix. Was there when Linux was born. The first distro if you could call it that with a window manager was SLS. I’ve tried and used most throughout my career. Linux now is just one big mess and the communities for some of these distros are just so tribal it’s a joke. A lot of these distros are forks of forks. Someone doesn’t like something so they change the theme add some icons and a couple of helper scripts and call it a new distro. When Ubuntu first come out it was great but as time has gone on canonical has become the Microsoft of Linux. The base is great but the crap they put on top of it is let’s just say sketchy. Distros like Mint do Linux a service. They give the non tech user a cohesive experience and try to keep them away from the terminal as much as possible. The devs also listen to the community which a lot of these other distros don’t. Mint, Zorin, PopOs and others are doing Linux proud.

@johnishappy

4 ай бұрын

I agree with you on the newer distros, they are really doing the heavy lifting for wider adoption.

There must be one Linux distribution and one Linux operating system. The distribution with the most privately-developed apps should stay, all others abandoned. Most professional software for Linux is made for Ubuntu.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

I would agree.

Distros, desktops, or "fragmentation" is not relevant to adoption. As Linus Torvalds said, it's all about whether Linux is pre-installed by vendors or not. Most "normies" would not even know what the hell is installed on their PC. And I don't think vendors (except a few, tiny ones) won't be pre-installing Linux. Vendors are all about increasing the prices (they reflect the cost of Windows license to the customer), and locking down / closing options, upgrades, and access. Think about all the Win 11 hardware requirements... this forces more expensive hardware onto the customer. I heard that some laptops don't even let you access or update the BIOS without Windows. Basically, I'm sick of "fragmentation" being blamed, where the blame should be placed on the evil hardware manufacturers and sellers / vendors. There is no evidence whatsoever that fragmentation / distros hurt adoption. Fragmentation and distros have been INCREASING non-stop, and at the same time, Linux adoption reached HISTORICAL HIGHS recently (near 4%). It's a false perception. Plus, "distro merging" does happen from time to time. With MX Linux for example, people from the antiX and Mepis communities came together. There was also a merging of two distros in the early 2000s with a commercial Linux attempt. Forking / new distros can also be beneficial, as it can save projects from dying. Open source works with a completely different set of driving forces and incentives than Microsoft / Apple. Sorry, your only dislike is from me. Respect your opinion though!

@johnishappy

3 ай бұрын

Pre-installed is the gateway to more adoption most likely.

Hi John. This Fragmentation in the Linux world has been argued many times before. Some are in your camp others are at the opposite side promoting the fragmentation. One thing to remember is that some of these distros are developed and promoted by a small group of developers or even just one person. A coder is not going to be able to come up with the best market strategies. Me, I like to have the choices we have right now. Maybe there's somebody out there that would like to fund the promotion of one of these distros with a good market strategy. That way we could have our cake and eat it too.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

That's the only way wider adoption will take place, it needs to be marketed. But there probably is no financial incentive to do it.

@juanroldan4379

5 ай бұрын

Some also argue that we need to market more computers with Linux installed from the manufacturer. That way people would start adopting more.

Monolitic Linux already exists. Its Chrome OS and Android the secret linuxes.

@hlashflahflhsjfh

5 ай бұрын

In all seriousness though... Linux is pretty much the same regardless of it being deb, rhel, arch etc. The user experience is the desktop environment and the apps bundled with it. Which more often than not is a variation of Ubuntu and a variation of Gnome.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Well that is true and even Linus Torvalds in some kind of interview mentioned that that was probably the way forward. I don't agree with it but he probably knows what he's talking about.

@hlashflahflhsjfh

5 ай бұрын

Everything in a browser and fully immutable system is certainly a good user experience for non tech people. I'm sure there is room for both however.

no

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

To the point!

The Linux part is only the kernel so Pop OS and Zorin are still Linux distro's and people will see that the minute they fire up. The hits in Distrowatch refers only to the number of times a distro listed his clicked on and has no baring on popularity. Even BSD has the choice of numerous desktops and that is because in the free world choice counts.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You're right about distrowatch, it's just something I use to see what's out there. The popularity is not what they actually are.

Never gonna happen. Linux is about choice. for beginners just suggest zorin and linux mint.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

That being said, you can go forward with those desktops and distros and be just fine

What you're referring to as 'Linux' is actually GNU/Linux... j/k 🤣

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I know.

Naw... Keep doing what your doing LINUX. Being a horrifying Fragmented Hodge podge. The only way LINUX could make a real dent in the Desktop market: 1: One LINUX DeskTop distro to rule them all 2: The ability to run most Windows based software Unless you have that in-place 🤣 Even Linus has pretty much said the same but why listen to Him 🤷 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You're right about the ability of running Windows software, if that were true. I have to remember why Linus did it in the first place, his own OS, for himself.

Hi, John. We've "spoklen" here a few times, often agreeing, often disagreeing agreeably. But I think today I have to stop watching/listening to you. I'm not made. I like you a lot. Your views are anything but invalid. But we operate on such radically differing planes of existence, so to say, that it would take me an essay longer than Eric S. Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" to make my reply here. I'm not going to do that to you or to your readers; no one wants me to do that. But I didn't want to just disappear without saying both goodbye, and great, marvelous, good fortune with your channel, despite my inability to interact further with it. I think you're a good bloke, and wanted to say so. We disagree so much on so many levels. I'm known for my dividing and reducing questions into constituent smaller questions. Here, you both conflate many issues into one Gordian Knot of a meta-question, and in fact, presume so much in your asking it that may not be so for all of us, that I simply haven't the time, patience, nor hope of most people listening to bother doing anything but packing up my old kit bag and moving on to the proverbial greener pastures. One little clue. I think too many people do not look at life as a tool-box, and confuse the question of whether to use a screwdriver or a hacksaw or a ball-peen hammer as a theological, rather than practical, matter. I'm all for complete tool kits, not those predicated only on "believing" in one kind of hammer or saw. I know, without my long epistemological explanations, this likely sounds abstract. Heck, it is abstract without that. And as I said, I ain't a gonna do that. So please accept from me my kindest regards for your personal future, and the future of this channel, however much I find myself now immiscible with it. Thank you for bringing an open mind and a cordial attitude, two "commodities" sorely lacking in what I call the linux "cult", rather than "community", to these discussions on youtube. I think you set a most commendable example, my friend. - Steve S.

@johnishappy

5 ай бұрын

You my friend, are a deep thinker, and yes, I do conflate things. It used to drive one of my old buddies crazy. I can't help it, in some ways I'm a very simple man.

@stevensawolkin3873

5 ай бұрын

John, thanks for the nice reply here. I'll just remind you and everyone that simple, when swimming in the worlds of mathematics and quantum theory, as I enjoy doing, is often a synonym for "elegant", which is hardly an insult or pejorative. Besides, since my friends tease me with the nickname "Master of the True Dictionary", how can I not salute a chap who uses "conflate" in his daily conversations, eh?