Have you ever been in this situation? How’s you make out?

As a client I would always want the raw footage, especially for such important moments like a wedding. That way I can hire a a cutter in 10 years, who makes a new master cut or includes old scenes in a new film. You could of cause make a contract with the creator, that the has to archive the footage for the next 70 years, but it is a hassle and a high risk, especially if you moved to an other country and now you somehow have to connect all the film studios, that they can collaborate and produce a new film together behind you back. The other point is remastering the footage in 20-30 years, if we have new standards and technologies. Much easier with raw footage. Maybe we use different color spaces in the future. Then REC.709 is just a bad choice. A compromise could be an intermediate product, where I get edited footage with a high bitrate, bit depth and custom conversion LUTs for other color spaces.

Just dealing with that this very morning. Couldn’t have been any clearer. Very helpful . Thanks 🙏🏾

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! We've all been there and it can be a tough situation to deal with.

When you said you started out with film cameras, my first thought was either you started as a kid or you've just aged AMAZINGLY well lol. But....one thing I'm learning is that if you're passionate about something and you desire to generate revenue from it, then LEARN THE BUSINESS SIDE FIRST before investing into the craft (equipment, training, etc.) This is how you'll know if it's really meant for you to pursue or not. I wish this video had found me before purchasing my non refundable camera lol. I probably would have waited. But what drove me to get the camera initially is because I had a vision for a brand I'm creating and wanted to shoot the models I'd use and do the digital editing/animation myself. But it NEVER crossed my mind that it's sooooo many legalities attached to something as simple as that.

@JonathanKMoore

3 ай бұрын

It’s crazy how when it goes from just doing something you love to business it can all of a sudden get complicated. Creatives often get taken advantage of because we love what we do and it’s not always about the money. But in business, it’s always about the money unfortunately.

This has been very helpful input Jonathan. I am in a situation right now and in a bit of a pickle. Your video will definitely help resolve the situation.

@JonathanKMoore

13 күн бұрын

Glad it was helpful! This can be a sensitive subject when discussing with clients. Good luck!

In order to discourage this type of behaviour I may think about offering shutter press service from $12,000 for 500 files, more files will cost more. This covers the raw files, the licencing, copyright, trade rights, equipment replacement cost and any protection that I may need in legal proceedings. This is an example, but if I was I to do this the cost might be different.

This is such a pain to deal with. Almost every client is excited until they read the contract and notice that I own the raw. I can almost always bet on who will have a problem with that and it’s often those who want to use Upwork to undercut me. I usually terminate at that point. Sometimes a client just doesn’t understand what’s at stake. Also, in highly doubt their PC can store the sometimes 8k raw footage.

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

So true. Clients usually have no idea about the storage and power needed.

Whatever you give to client is completely their property, but opposite is not always true. RAW files are NOT your copyright ONLY. You can take photo of a bird or a mountain that is your intellectual property and yours alone. However if you take a photo me, my car, or anything belongs to me, you can't use, sell or redistribute it without my consent. Done a wedding photography? You can't put one single photo on your website, your portfolio or even on instagram account if anyone in the photo objects to it. And believe me, people will/should object if you get into a heated argument about denying them RAWs. Here's my dilemma: Since you can't legally use anything after an event photography, why not just give the RAWs at the end of the contract? Why not just do a seperate legal arrangement where you retain the copyrights but they have right to edit them for their personal use? Everyone would be happy then. I'll agree on the part everything should be established upfront. But if nobody said nothing, photographer, by default, must provide raws if client wants them. As a client, I'll always ask for RAWs, and if its a photo job not intended for a future professional use case I would never, ever pay a penny extra for getting my RAWs. I'll agree if photographer doesn't take the job, but taking the job and denying them afterwards is not an option.

@NMR21

Ай бұрын

it’s a 50/50. And if you want a photographer half you pay period.

Not sure if you mentioned but I think a big part to this is giving clients the disclaimer a head of time just so they know this is not a possibility down the line and that any additional footage being given will have to be purchased. Once made clear that they are paying for your service to deliver a piece of work and not everything captured, thing should go smoother. Im currently trying to implement this into my regular bookings.

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

Great point. Communication is definitely key. It was a hard lesson I had to learn but well worth it. Definitely gets everyone on the same page.

Currently dealing with that situation. I re-edited a video for a client 3 times and provided extras all to how they wanted... and now the request for raws have slapped me in the face. Your video is very insightful. Thank you!

@JonathanKMoore

10 ай бұрын

Yeah that’s a rough situation. When you deal with clients like that, they’ll never be happy with anything that you do. These are the worst types of people to deal with.

@jamilgotcher365

Ай бұрын

One word. Contracts.

Awesome content bro

@JonathanKMoore

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks brotha!

What if it’s a smaller client and she still pays you ur rate but she suggests she likes to edit her reels (instagram reels). So she’s still paying the full rate but instead of me editing I’m just shooting and still getting the shooting credit

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

In that situation I would give them the files. You’re more or less being hired as and DP and having someone else edit it.

Thank you so much for this! I’m a social media manager that is currently parting with a client because my rates are now out of their budget. I just received a message from them ‘telling me’ to send over all of the graphic design and video templates I created. We never had a contract established (not ideal, but I was junior when I first started working with them years ago). I know that I own the copyright to my templates, but I’m afraid that if I don’t send the source files that they will not pay me my monthly rate. I’m really stumped, and honestly, I’m insulted that they feel entitled to these assets for FREE. Not too sure what the best course of action is. I really don’t want to sabotage the relationship, but I think I’m being treated pretty unfairly here. Got any suggestions? Any insights would be extremely appreciated!

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

The tough part is always trying to figure out which way the relationship is going to end up. When I made this video I was going through a similar situation with a client and the reality is if they’re a small client they think that by paying you, they own your work. But they don’t, they’re paying for your service. More than likely you won’t work with them again, especially if they were paying you monthly. They’re either going cut your position or have someone else do it for cheaper or they’ll go with a bigger company for more money in hopes to get “better” results. So here’s my suggestion. They owe you for the work you’ve done up until this point. And whether you give them those files or not, it’s over. Either they’re not working with you anymore or you’re going to feel some type of way about them having someone else using your work. So you can try your best to end on good terms by not being confrontational, but either way it’s over. You could offer to sell them the remaining templates and if they respect you and your work they’ll buy them off you. At the end of the day don’t be afraid to stand up for what’s right and just know that it’s not the end of the world. You’re talent got you jobs in the past and will in the future.

@JorgePille

Ай бұрын

Never be afraid to lose a client (or anything). Set your boundaries and stick to them.

What if the project recruiter is a photographer. He ask for all raws photos or video taken on that day? Some even ask to take high volume of photos / video ( min 1000) with very low rate . How can i respond to that ?

@JonathanKMoore

8 күн бұрын

In a situation like this it seems the terms are set from the beginning which makes you work for hire. Meaning everything you do is for the project. In this situation it’s up to you if you want to accept the job knowing that all intellectual property will be theirs.

Thanks a lot tired working for free even if it’s a collab if they want raws footage I’m selling it

TRUE

@JonathanKMoore

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks brotha!

I’m literally in this current situation and I don’t know what to do

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

It’s tricky being in that situation. Especially when it wasn’t agreed on before hand.

@genesisrios262

Жыл бұрын

@@JonathanKMoore dude…. That whole part. I charged them for deliverables and now they hired a graphic designer for half my salary and want my working files to phase me out. None of this was discussed until now. I freelance for them so now I don’t know what to do

@theoryis4236

Жыл бұрын

@@genesisrios262 don’t do it fam. Unless you wanna charge them a buy out that makes you comfortable for all the files let em know it’s not part of your company standards. Some random touching your work may mess with your brand identity of quality product.

Just sent this to one of the homies for advice. Unfortunately she gave a client all the files prior to getting her back end. Client got some other guy to edit it for cheaper and chopped and slaughtered the hell outta her footage smh Better to say no than to have your footage and brand looking crazy imo

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

Damn that sucks. You're right better to say no than to have your work out there looking crazy. But hey, we've all been there. You live and you learn.

How do i tell my photographer that we like our photo unedited? No matter WHO edited/took the photo? It seems like no one believes us that we like our wedding photos the way they are instead of slapping some instagram sepia filter over them

@jamilgotcher365

Ай бұрын

Why would you hire a photographer who's style you didn't like?

@webben2166

Ай бұрын

A final product always has a lot of interpretation. I would always want the raw footage.

@jamilgotcher365

Ай бұрын

Because most people don't know the difference between the terms edit and retouch and use the terms interchangeably. A raw file is like ordering the ingredients for a cake from a baker rather than their cake. I'm going to put on my website that I do not give or sell raw files so I don't attract a client who would ask for them. I just recently saw a really crappy edit if you would call it that of one of my raw files. The person had no idea how to edit a photo, it looked terrible. I will not risk including the raw file ever again. The last thing I need is someone to ask who was the photographer. There was nothing wrong with the raw file but when the person who edits it looks like they left it raw because they don't have a clue as to what they are doing and want to look like to their boss that they are needed at their company for skills they don't have then I don't want to work with those people. My business is healthy enough, I can pick and choose who I work with now.

@Jerrboyy

Ай бұрын

@@jamilgotcher365 I didn't. My wife's mother booked the photographer. I had no idea what their style was before she booked it.

@webben2166

Ай бұрын

@@jamilgotcher365 A practical example: I make a contract with a photographer in 10 years for my anniversary. He should also create a beautiful photo album for me. How can he match all the styles, if I only can give him highly artistic jpeg files? The result would be much better if he can work directly with raw files. Just make an offer to purchase the jpeg + raw files. It is just that much more future proof for such important moments in life. Or an other scenario: I booked two photographers for the same (large) event and they deliver two totally different styles. That would be a nightmare.

Just been in this situation. It is hard to explain it to the client without sounding greedy even if it is just common practice and business.

@JonathanKMoore

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely. You always seem like the bad guy in these situations, especially when you're dealing with mom and pop type clients.

@mck5549

3 ай бұрын

Did the client get the recipe for the nice lunch at the restaurant and the pattern for the clothes they bought last week? As long as you are not a full time employee, you don’t give out open files for free. Otherwise they must pay several times the value of the final product. The only reason they want open files is because they want to benefit without paying or benefit for cheap.

@webben2166

Ай бұрын

The problem is, that the producer hardly can guarantee, that he will be available in the far future (maybe 10-30 years) to collaborate with other producers for a possible master cut/ remastering.

Dang bro how long have you been doin this?

@JonathanKMoore

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha. Been around for a a while man. My dad was a photographer so I learned on film before digital.

I am so sad that our wedding images dont look the way we like :( our photographer slapped an instagram filter on it and said take it or leave and we dont edit our photos anyway, we dont ever post on social media either! My wifes mom booked the lady for us and we didnt know her style and all we like is just natural looking unedited photos - we would be posting nothing but unedited photos on Facebook for family to see who couldnt make it to our wedding. It feels so selfish for photographers to not let us post our once in a lifetime wedding photos the way we like it :( just the natural look, my wife even doesnt wear hardly any makeup and it is really important to us our photos are natural looking. But it breaks my heart that photographers nowadays only care about making money instead of making people happy :'( its just a photo? Who cares that my face has natural imperfections instead of airbrushing my face and making me looking fake? Its not a reflection of who we are and its extremely disappointing that the entire photography is on board with this? Where is the humanity in people anymore? If i wouldve known i wouldve have had my sister take our wedding pictures instead

@JonathanKMoore

Ай бұрын

Thanks for taking the time to comment… You put a lot of thought into what you said and I appreciate that…I’m sorry to hear about your wedding photographer because I know how significant that moment is in someone’s life. Although what I will say is this. Weddings are big events and you shouldn’t have let someone else book the photographer for you. Especially being that you are a photographer I would expect you to be more diligent about selecting a photographer that you like. Every photographer has their style even you. If you know you like a certain style of photography then you should’ve searched for someone with that style. Just because someone has a nice camera that doesn’t automatically make them a good photographer or a photographer you like. When I got married I had 1 photographer in mind and I made sure I booked them. Yes they were expensive but they had the type of work and style we liked. There’s very few things you take away from that day and photographs are one of them. So for you to not be involved in that decision in my opinion is hard to wrap my head around….

2:54 I absolutely could not disagree more. I shot film professionally and developed clients negatives and I scanned the negatives and happily sent them the unedited files. I still have all my negatives and still have the ability to "make money" from them but to me I liked photography as an art form not as a cash cow. I am not trying to monetize my negative 2x-10x beyond initial price. It depends on the client - when you can clearly tell the client has no intention to make money from your shot, who cares? And even if they do make more money from it, who cares? It is so sad to see our world completely change an art form as photography into another avenue of revenue. Is life not more than money? I am happier when my clients were pleased to see the original unedited shots - no amount of money can change that for me. I may have a copyright for the rights for photos i took but i will never own anything in this world❤ I will happily give clients RAW files upon request❤❤ I like to treat others the way I would like to be treated❤

@JonathanKMoore

Ай бұрын

In my opinion you seem to be seeing this from one perspective which is fine. You mentioned how you don’t care to make money from your art and that’s all well and good. Although my perspective isn’t coming from the perspective of a hobbyist, I’m feeding my family from this skill set I’ve acquired over many years. You’re comparing apples to oranges because I’m talking about making money and the business of photography while you’re talking about making art that you want to share with the world. Making money from skills you’ve worked hard to acquire isn’t wrong. I made this video for photographers and videographers to inform them on how to not get taken advantage of. If you’re not in the game of trying to monetize your photography, then this message isn’t for you.

I appreciate your viewpoints. I'm a consumer and in my opinion if somebody is going to manipulate your image and ruin your reputation they could do that using raw files or jpeg's as well. Albeit less adjustments can be made to jpegs, it can still be done and posted as authentic. So that's a mute point. As far as future revenue, I can see holding the images until there is no more possibility (or low possibility) of future revenue. For my wedding, after one year of no further purchases, the photographer gave us the negatives (back in physical film days). I would not be purchasing/printing any more photos, but it was nice to have the negatives a year later just for my own archival purposes and viewing of the images I was never able to purchase for financial reasons. It also gave me incentive to use this photographer again as I liked his business model. I also shared with my friends his business model which he received even more clients as a result. Same with my daughters senior pictures (which were digital) - once we paid for all the high resolution jpegs, there is no more possible future revenue to be made from the RAW files because I have all the pictures, so why not provide the raw files as well? At the end of the day, I'm going to choose the photographer who offers the RAW "negative" files. So it can be a competitive advantage to offer them, and business lost to your competitor if you are not providing. Just another viewpoint.

@JonathanKMoore

Жыл бұрын

Definitely a different way of looking at it...That's nice of him to provide the negatives... Aside from that, there's a difference between working with companies or consumers. I mainly work with companies and the inner workings are slightly different. Consumers don't really understand copyright which is big when you're working with bigger companies.

@cxssetteman182

Жыл бұрын

That's a valid point, but it is one sided. It may give business to a photographer, but it will cheapen their reputation as well. It makes them look desperate. Once the Client has Raw files, they can do whatever the heck they want. They can share with another retoucher, or they can try their own hand at Post-processing (which often yields crap results). It's like taking your child to a Barbershop and just telling them to cut your child's hair in whichever way they desire. You may be comfortable doing so if it is a known barbershop, because you've seen them and trust them. But if it's an entirely new one, you wouldn't do that, would you? That's the same relationship Clients and Photographers share with each other. If it's a regular client, i as a photographer will be willing to be a bit more lenient. But if I'm just a commision for a client on a one time basis, then hell no. Not unless they're willing to purchase the Raw Files. Nobody should give out there raw files. It's like giving out your reputation in somebody else's hands. Allowing them to do whatever they want with it. I know Photographers who do it if it is a High end Client. They usually include the Raw Purchasing in their budgets so Clients usually don't have an issue. But as a photographer, it would make more sense in the long run refuse such kind of work, instead of caving in and destroying your chances long term for a moment's work.

@MaxAcceleration

Жыл бұрын

@@cxssetteman182 Thanks for the comments. So you're okay with "giving out your reputation" as long as "they're willing to purchase the RAW files"? The reputation argument went out the window when you said it's okay to give out your reputation as long as they hand over cash. I don't see it as "caving in" at all. They make money on the photoshoot and you get the output of their work. Could you imagine if you go to the barber and they tell you you can't go home with your hair because you might cut it yourself at home or go to another barber later. lol I guess it's an interpretation of what you are paying for and what you get. As long as that is well defined and I have a choice, I personally will always choose the one that lets me have the output and maybe charges a little more for the photo shoot. At the end of the day, if the photographer makes money and the customer is satisfied, that's all that matters. And it's what makes choice and competition so great in America, consumers get to make an educated choice.

@batuhancokmar7330

4 ай бұрын

@@cxssetteman182Everything you've said apply to JPGs provided to your client: An incompetent client can edit it just as "well", with far worse results than starting off with RAW. Let's mention the opposite perspective to be fair: It really shocks me some photographers always assume no client can ever edit their photos just as well or even better then they do. Level of arrogance on this mentality is out of this world.