Any game genre can be called "simple" if you refuse to engage with it beyond its surface mechanics. "Tetris is so simple! You just drop the blocks a make a line!" That said, I don't think simplicity is actually a bad thing. Though in my case, "simple" is more akin to "elegant". Things that are there are things that need to be there, with only enough fluff to provide aesthetic satisfaction to the player. Complexity was seen as a boon for a long time, but I honestly think adding in too many mechanics can serve to harm the overall depth of a game. RPGs are actually a perfect example, since JRPG in particular are can be near braindead despite the many mechanics that go in to it. WRPGs I'm less familiar with, so I'll refrain from saying much about those. I think what journalists usually think when they talk about depth isn't really depth at all, just an illusion brought about from all the possibly superfluous mechanics modern games have.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

This is a great insight! Yes I think the destination between elegant and simple is an important one. Simple is a child's drawing and elegant is one of those minimalist zen paintings ha. Shmups are an elegant genre because they have so much going beneath the surface (iceburg theory) that supports the surface elements and without that internal depth the games would be boring, like astroids is simple

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

I only praise one rpg series for maintaining a good depth despite having complex mechanic. And yeah I can see why games can easily turn braindead with tons of mechanics supporting the gameplay(newer pokemon)

@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77

Жыл бұрын

Something to that… think how much arcade games would do with digital directional input and 2 or 3 buttons.

@hooksnfangs6006

Жыл бұрын

Couldn't have said it better myself

@LixeiraDoFrost

Жыл бұрын

And even when we are talking about complexity, I'm quite sure they never dealt with Radiant Silvergun's scoring or Hellsinker's well crafted systems when they pretend the genre is pretty much still Gradius 1.

"Shmups have no depth" has the same energy as "fighting games are about memorizing arbitrary combos", "beat 'em ups are button mashers", or "fps is just clicking on heads".

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yep exactly! Pretty much any genre can be reduced down to being "simple" even if that review passes over all the nuances of how the genre works

@varthfalchion6402

Жыл бұрын

I despise FPSs and I would still never make such a shallow, baseless claim about those games. That's ridiculous!

@Nyarly-san

3 ай бұрын

@@varthfalchion6402to be fair they’re game journalists, you can’t expect much from them

@varthfalchion6402

3 ай бұрын

​@@Nyarly-sanExcellent point. They are themselves, the "simpletons", in most cases. How comedically ironic!

The TMNT interview reminds me of the new Battletoads game. In the cutscenes they talk about how the old games are outdated but the reason anyone is giving your game a 0.1 seconds of a glance or going to buy your tripe is because of those “old outdated games”. They really shouldn’t give games to people who don’t understand the appeal of older titles.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

exactly magic! I made a vid about this called artistic laundering, and that is exactly what they are doing. They get this beautiful option select of having the original IP as a massive marketing tool, but also feeling no responsibility to actually live up to the og ip as they are just much wiser than those outdated old devs ha.

Shoot 'em ups became complex in a way that wasn't marketable to the masses and therefore, why they've never understood them (as well as why they've remained niche for the most part). I've always felt that beat 'em ups were a heavily misunderstood genre, but shoot 'em ups are right up there. They're only simple if you ignore all the deeper mechanics and instead just "shoot 'em all up!" or "beat 'em all up!". You can hammer on a button while drifting around and "sort of" make progress. Ironically, this is often the only way to get people to play these games at all. A lot of people are turned off by the more complex mechanics at play even if they do somehow become aware of them. I think Ikaruga is an interesting case of a game that made its complexity more apparent (and more marketable) which gained a bit of respect for the genre (from the masses).

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That s a great point on ikaruga and I think you are right. Ikaruga brought a new system right to the surface that even the most casual reviewer would have to recognize ha

@HammerHeadBubba

2 ай бұрын

I'll tell you what else is NOT complex... Eating nanners

I think the foundational issue is that part of the original core marketing strategy behind arcade games was that they *appeared* simple, so as to not scare off potential new players. The depth they present was often intentionally hidden from the player, the strategic choices made as subtle as possible, and often put together in highly elegant packages as Gespenst said. It says a lot that most shmups stick to two or three buttons even today. The modern design philosophy takes the depth it offers and presents it as unambiguously as possible. When you pick a move in Pokémon, the matter is clear; you *must* take an action, and only *one* action out of many, and then your opponent gets to retaliate. Not to mention the type system tends to follow the “simon says” concept you lay out in its single player, despite the depth that arises from it in PvP (something that especially funny when you consider that fighting other players was added as basically an afterthought in the gen 1 games). Gamers look at shmups and see games that have taken great pains to hide their potential from sight, and so they assume that that potential isn’t there. This is pretty clearly why euroshmups are the go-to preference for genre outsiders. I also think this is part of why Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga tend to be the critical darlings, as well as Touhou to a lesser extent. You laid out in the RS video that Treasure were originally console devs, and that they injected a lot of RPG DNA into that game in a clever way, but what I think is really interesting is that the choices within the system were laid bare. You have many weapons to choose from, and you must know when to use them. To use them effectively, you must level them up, which means that you must engage with the scoring system. And that scoring system happens to be that you choose which enemies to kill and which enemies to leave alive, and you choose which weapons you’ll use to kill those enemies so that you can level them up. Ikaruga is much the same in a very elegant package. To survive the game, you need extends, which you get from scoring. You score by chaining black and white enemies, which are set up in patterns very obviously designed to test your ability to chain optimally. At the same time, the chaining is very lenient, so you can choose to chain certain enemy patterns while just brute-forcing your way through others. And of course, the central mechanic of the game is the polarity system, literally a choice between immunity to black or white bullets. Early Windows Touhou is an interesting case in that it’s inspired much more directly by the bullet hell games that were contemporary at the time. All the same, it took those inspirations in a direction that was clearly unique. Characters had patterns with names and unique backgrounds, and those patterns were visibly designed to be intricate, artistic affairs. Moreover, said patterns were often either clearly puzzle-like, tested raw dodging skills through randomness, or were easily dismantled by pretty basic techniques. Like, tap streaming was *mystifying* to me when I was first introduced to that series. There are also games like Steredenn, which did for variety what RS did for choice, and Geometry Wars which played straight into that “simple” perception with a visual flair that set it apart- games that laid their own best qualities bare. If arcade games are ever to pull themselves out of the hole they seem to have unwittingly dug themselves into, I think they’ll have to find ways to do the same. Maybe designing systems that are obvious like this in the first place, or finding clever ways to explain otherwise obtuse systems to new players. Normalizing putting quality tutorials in shmup releases, stuff on the level of quality of something like Skullgirls. Maybe take cues from the speedrunning and fighting game communities wherever possible. So on and so forth.

I was in a server and the common consensus was from snobby people that said arcade games were never good, unnecessary, and shouldn't be made today. Said they have no place and people need to be exclusively making "deep", narrative driven games like Spec Ops The Line and Last of Us.

It's hard to get a lot of people to understand concepts like risk-reward or imposing limits on themselves that the game doesn't impose itself. They see arcade games as quarter munchers and when they play a home port and credit feed through it they think it's boring and pointless. People think a video game is something that you're supposed to play through to experience the story and ending so a 30 minute game with infinite lives puzzles them. There's also a fear of failure which is just something you need to learn to embrace. Gamers who are quick to frustration view shmups and other difficult games as masochistic because they don't want to learn a game they want instant gratification.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Very strong insight here. That is correct and I ve seen it over and over. The term quarter muncher being used non-ironically should be punished by a fine and a year in prison ha.

@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77

Жыл бұрын

I think having free play enabled right out of the gate is a mistake for exactly that reason

@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Maybe fair for some games like Revolution X where not having your health slowly bled out is impossible

@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77

Жыл бұрын

@@diydylana3151 what’s happened is that’s been replaced with “progression,” i.e., the plot advances or your character gets stronger, just based on you having your ass in the chair long enough. People say they prefer this because they don’t want to be stressed out by the game demanding anything of them.

@kagemushashien8394

Жыл бұрын

@@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77 Then how does one make it more engaging without asking much? I want to make one to give a good puzzle, I throw at you my planes and all kind of weaponry to see if you persevere and find the patterns, to see if you can solve this not by just sitting down, but engaging with your mind, remember what my planes do, learn the opponent and think on that, but also think faster and in more dimensions than them, improve the brain, it's like feeding the brain it's daily puzzle to solve to keep it form going dull, but also have fun, I'll also throw in other levels too, easy, normal, hard, and for those who likes a challenge, a nightmare mode, and maybe I'll throw in a little sand box for them to play in, make their own levels, experiment with the plane they have, train with it, and get better, give them the choice, do they want to sit back and relax and enjoy an easy game, or do they want a challenge and choose my planes or they make the level and the boss, one of the reasons why I like Sky Force is because it let's you choose the difficulty of the level, as you build up your plane and become stronger easy mode feels like a walk in the park and gets a little boring, but nightmare mode is the embodiment of its name, faster enemies, their health is bigger and do more damage, conquering that will give you good satisfaction, but just hacking your way into it and getting it instantly is just plain wrong, you want to get there, but I advise you take a journey for it will be fun, sure it will take time, but you'll have fun in sandbox mode if you atleast try one of the challenges and win. My other favorite thing about Sky Force it's that it is a collecting game too, enemies drop these stars and make a satisfying click when you grab them, beating a boss just for that is nice, a good way of putting replayibility in the game, and the stars aren't useless, they are to buy upgrades, so it's a grinding game too.

I think a big thing as well is that with shmups, specifically ones without checkpoints, you can credit feed your way through and never actually learn the complexities. And I think that’s how a lot of reviewers and more mainstream voices play. While if you want to get a 1cc and especially if you want to play for score you HAVE to learn the mechanics. Garegga being a great example because if you aren’t aware of the mechanics and depth the game will just straight up become impossible lol

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

The great continue system debate. Yes this is absolutely one of the contributing factors. If the game allows you to credit spam your way through, then that's a valid clear right?! I do think, as much as I enjoy ripping on game journalists, that it is a valid point that the game should not have such a hands off continue system and that continues should be incorporated into today's game design more directly. I think that change is happening though! Most new shmups are mindful of this.

@TheSamuraiGoomba

Жыл бұрын

The same is true with run and guns and beat em ups, which also leads to those genres being misunderstood by journos who don't bother to learn the game or engage with its mechanics.

@Galaxy40k

Жыл бұрын

Yeah this is a big thing with basically any arcade-style game, not just shmups. Hell, even for stuff like Bayonetta you see people play through it once on Normal, say "it's okay but a button masher," uninstall it, and then say something like "God of War 2018's combat is way more in depth than Bayo" (e.g. SkillUps review). There's nothing wrong with playing games with credit feeding or going through only once for spectacle, but gamers seem so conditioned to play like "once I see the credits, I've experienced the entire game and can uninstall it" it's insane

@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I think Radiant Silvergun was fairly forward-thinking in this regard, limiting credits but also giving you more credits and the ability to grind out weapons upgrades if you keep with it. Kind of gives something for the 90% of players who have no interest in a demanding 1cc run but want some level of challenge, engagement, and even "progression."

Would you consider making a topic about "Simon says" gameplay concept? I feel like more and more games are going to this mindset.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely!!! That is on my list of topics to cover!

in regards to the complexity of shmups, i recently bought dodonpachi resurrection for the switch, and just getting a 1cc alone on normal mode was an insane time sink, but then i realized there was a B route to take, and then after that, i realized that collecting certain items while also getting a 1cc on your first run will determine what 2nd loop you'll take, and then i realized that finishing the full game and 1ccing it is one thing, but getting a high score is another ENTIRELY.....and all of that is on just ONE version of the game, this is the first shmup i've ever played and i can already tell that the mainstream reviewers have no idea what they're talking about.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh yes the branching paths of dfk add a ton of depth. Also wait until you play black label, that version is crazy!!!

Imo a lot of games in the genre are designed to de “deceptively simple” where in an arcade setting, casuals can just enjoy credit feeding and blasting stuff, while advanced players can learn the deeper mechanics. It’s a good way to let both audiences enjoy the genre but leaves casual players with a limited understanding of shmups. I think the main thing holding casuals back from noticing the real complexity of them is the barebones (or complete lack of) tutorials shmups generally have. Your average Joe isn’t likely to know about a game’s score system or different ship characteristics if it only spends 10 seconds at the beginning showing you the controls for moving and shooting.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yep tutorial are a big factor! I am hopeful though that we will start to see more of them in new indie shmups, I know gunvein is going to have an extensive one

This concept is called the Dunning-Kruger effect. You don't know what you don't know.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Awesome!! That sounds really cool ha.

Honestly I think a big part of the misconception is actually the difficulty itself. Because the barrier for entry is so incredibly high in so many of these games, it limits a new player's ability to really get to grips with the underlying mechanics. And in many cases, makes it hard to even NOTICE those mechanics. And once that is happening in the player's mind, once they're just seeing random lunacy and NOT spotting other elements that are really going on, that's gonna lead to the "well this is pretty mindless, isnt it" sort of view. And really most shmups do a bloody awful job of teaching the player anything at all, particularly those that started as actual arcade games. There's one game I always really like to point newbies towards, to give them an idea that there's more to the genre than just "shoot things", and that's Giga Wing. For a few reasons: 1, it's not crazy hard, so the player doesnt immediately feel overwhelmed, and 2, the unique mechanic is used so constantly that it gives the player tons of room to really explore it and learn what it can and cant do, while also being flashy and feeling impactful. It's a very OBVIOUS sort of mechanic, not something subtle and hard to spot, and it does a good job showing the player that, hey, this genre can have you do all sorts of interesting stuff beyond just holding the fire button. It's the game that got me into the genre for those very reasons (and was my first real 1cc, too). Most games dont offer that accessibility though. It's honestly pretty hard to find a good "gateway" game in this genre, and I think that's a shame.

@JustFun-ho6qy

Жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more with this. Don't blame the audience for missing intricacies when they're frequently nigh incomprehensible, often fairly inconsequential (outside of scoring) and/or buried underneath miles of fucking concrete. It's why Ikaruga worked for so many people and why no one who's not in the know even notices the bees in Dodonpachi.

@Amalga_Heart

Жыл бұрын

@@JustFun-ho6qy Yeah, the bees are a perfect example of that problem. Even when someone spots one (if they spot one), how are they even going to know what it's really for? Like how it's used in Daifukkatsu (or Resurrection, whatever it's called), where it does something if you grab it WHILE it's doing it's "blink" animation, which... how is anyone supposed to figure that out? And of course what specifically it does changes based on which mode it is. Honestly Cave's games in particular, as much as I love them, were always atrocious about this. I still remember when ESPGaluda 2 came out on the 360, way back when... myself and a few others on some shmup related forum spent waaaayyyyyyy too long experimenting and trying to figure out the bizarre, obtuse scoring mechanics that were in a certain mode, just to make a guide so that others would be less confused. And then there's Mushihime-sama (the first one, not Futari). I've played it absolutely to death. Beaten Ultra, years ago. And to this day I STILL have no bloody idea how the scoring system works. I just could never parse that one for whatever reason. And the game does nothing to help with that.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes that difficulty wall keeps lots of players out, but also once they get in, they stick inside the genre :-)

@JustFun-ho6qy

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground true, but that doesn't change the fact that these games are awfully poor teachers when it comes to mechanics that are usually just as intricate as they are messy. It's kind of a big ask to save state your way through a 15 minute game for hundreds of hours when you could be polishing off Elden Ring plus two other monstrosities in a similar time frame. This may sound like the greatest time on earth to a very small amount of insanely dedicated people, but to just about every one else this probably sounds like the shittiest day job they could possibly imagine for themselves. And even the little bones some of the better console ports throw your way often seem like cruel jokes. Like the novice difficulty settings in livewire or M2 ports which do not prepare you for the real game in the slightest. The reason why games like Ikaruga and Giga Wing work fairly well in that regard is because the systems at their core are elegant, take center stage, and are intrinsically linked to every other aspect of the experience. Streets of Rage 4 is another game which does this marvelously well. They are the equivalent of witch time or dodge offset in Bayonetta. To paraphrase a quote I've heard from somewhere, "if you think everyone else is a weirdo, chances are the blame lies with you."

@dadrising6464

Жыл бұрын

Yeah and then you get these elitist shmup players pissing on every shmup thats on the easier side. And then get butthurt if their genre of choice gets dismissed my some

Interesting question. I think this idea of "Simple" needs unpacking. "Simple" is not the same as "easy" and I think you conflate the two a few times. Also, "simple" is not the same thing as "simple to develop". Getting a basic Shmup up and running IS easier than a Jump & Run or an RPG for various reasons. Which is why it can be a good choice for a beginner tutorial. Baby's first video game obviously won't compete with a commercial product developed by professional team of experienced devs. I do agree that there is a lack of familiarity and application for the amount of thought and investment required to play Shmups among mainstream coverge. I think a good genre to compare Shmups to are Racing Games which are also fairly simple but aren't portrayed as such. There is often more willingness to appreciate the nerdy details that make those games fun to dive into. On the other hand I do think that there is a certain simplicity to Shmups, but I would frame this simplicity as a unique strength. Arcade games have been always designed for a new player to be able to drop a coin into them and start playing right away. A lot of more complex modern games would fail utterly if they had to be played this way. Imagine someone dropping a quarter in a Crusader Kings 2 cabinet and standing there for two hours to go trough the tutorial that teaches them how to play. That kind of front-loaded pick up and play nature of Shmups and other arcade games IS quite unusual in modern times and you could call this quality "Simple". No hoops to jump trough to start playing. As you demonstrated so well, this does not mean that playing the games successfully is as straight-forward. The phrase "Easy to learn, hard to master" comes to mind - something I always thought was a desirable quality in Game Design.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Simple is a complicated term, that s for sure. If reviewers described shmups as simple in a zen sort of way, I'd be more open to that. But that s not the attitude that comes across. Simple is meant as "basic" essentially where the games are an entertaining "pick up and play" like a mobile game, but they're not as serious and well designed as an RPG or other core genres

As a guy who's been playing a ton of 16-bit stuff lately, I think what these reviewers might latch onto with the old school compared to bullet hell is how their design philosophy tends to be much more of an analogue to other genres of action game. Take a game like Thunder Force III, where environmental hazards play a major role. I'm navigating around terrain and through tight corridors, that terrain itself is shifting and trying to crush me, boulders are falling on me, water currents are sending me off course, flame geysers are shooting up at me, etc. etc. All things you'd find in a Mario or Mega Man game. Or any Compile shooter, where you have an arsenal of weapons to choose from, and you'll develop a favourite that you like to stick to. But being able to grab that weapon when it appears and hold onto it is paramount. Anyone who ever lunged after the spread gun when it came on screen in Contra gets this concept. And you bring up R-Type, but that's a fairly mechanically complex series with all the different ways you can use the force pod. Games would often use a mechanical gimmick to stand out - Image Fight or Gley Lancer's 'rolling gunner' style pods, Gaiares letting you steal enemy weapons, Hellfire's constant weapon switching, and so on. I think this is why reviewers like Treasure's shooters (aside from Treasure's street cred meaning nobody will criticize them for the choice); they give the player a unique and immediately identifiable toy to play with. Reviewers don't have to be able to understand arcane under-the-hood mechanics to get what it's about. The Cave style shooter often does away with most of this. The environment is just wallpaper. Your weapons might not change at all. The mechanics might require a degree of mastery to even deploy, or be centred around scoring (something almost no reviewer with 72 hours to churn out a review and an endless conveyor belt of new games coming at them cares about). So to someone approaching them coming from the mindset of other genres, they might look simplistic through the lens of those expectations.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes that is absolutely why treasure appeals to more casual reviewers, they make the gameplay hook massive and impossible to miss ha :-) though I think ikaruga s popularity is a perfect storm of many different factors

@AlbertBalbastreMorte

Жыл бұрын

That's the comparison I draw too. Sidescrolling retro shmups are airborne platformers, whether bullet hell have developed away into a completely separate genre.

As much as I love shmups in general, my gaming profile rarely matches with the mandatory 1CC requirement. I can't stand games that demand surgical perfection to be "enjoyed" - and by that I mean feeling rewarded. Anxiety, available time, hardware setup (and input lag)... add that to the fact they're part of a design philosophy that's focused around quarter-munching and you'll end up in that section of genuinely frustrating game design. I'd love to find more shmups in the middle ground between having a shield meter and enough lives/credits to beat them without a superhuman dedication. You know, console gems like Sin and Punishment.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I think you should def look into shmups with an auto bomb system, as I think the auto bomb addresses this area of design. Give dodonpachi resurrection a try and see what you think! It has a kind auto bomb system. As does the deathtiny mode in PS4 ketsui

I really appreciate what you're saying here, and how you are trying to reframe the general perspective to be more in line with the truth of things. Games like Ikaruga and Imperishable Night immediately come to mind, for me. I mainly play Touhou, and aside from PCB (well, and IN just because I played it so much when it came out...), if I ever decide to get into one of them again and try to 1cc it etc, I always need to look at the wiki for it and read through all the info on the systems in that particular game.... and I know the same is true for most modern games in the genre (I've played all the Cave games and other well known arcade games, just haven't put the same time into them as I have with Touhou... it has a lot to do with the music and general aesthetic/tone, honestly... I love the genre, but just don't find sci-fi or military themes that appealing, at least when something else exists that does cater to my tastes and has excellent game design and tons of games that each play differently), that without understanding and fully engaging with the mechanics of a game (even ones that "only" affect scoring, almost always affect lives which is huge if trying to 1cc etc) one isn't going to have nearly as much fun or satisfaction playing it. Though I honestly don't think it's the best idea to show Mario 3 while making your point about platformers... because while what you say is pretty valid in the case of most platformers of that era, a big part of what makes Mario 3, World, and Yoshi's Island so beloved is their complexity and depth in contrast to the rest of the genre. Should have shown a Sonic game lol

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes touhou has a tone of depth, especially the later games. UFO for example, I still scratch my head on what to do in that game ha. Also I m a big Mario 3 fan ha, so no shade intended. I have a no death no warp run sitting on my hard drive needing a commentary vid soon

I am a no hit runner and i recently (January this year) got into shmups because it was one of the few genres i havent tackled for hitless (basically no miss run) and so far im addicted to it BUT the thing that i heard a lot from my fellow hitless runners while streaming Mushi was "why do you hate yourself so much" and i realised that potentially one of the reasons this genre is this niche is because it's a very scary genre to get into similar to the Souls series. Usually my response to those people is "Is not as hard or scary as you think it is", like yes i had to sit down and understand the mechanics and movement of the game to understand it better and enjoy the game but once you start to get the fundamentals down and know how to approach the game it is VERY rewarding to route and perform on something that looks and feels insurmountable. One of the problems i see nowadays with game is that it's design is not deliberate to make the player feel smart and be rewarded when they explore their options and test their ideas within the game, you get punished for trying to outsmart the game when it should be rewarded and that's what i like about shmups. They may be brutal but they want you to win and make you feel that you deserve it, honestly it's something that souls games by fromsoft have in common with this genre. P.S This genre is definitely not "Simple". Also im 1 hit away from getting Mushi Original/Normal No Miss, wish me luck

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Heyblasty this is a really cool comment. What's funny is that, outside of arcade games, I find the hitless method of play of mainstream games really fun and interesting, and I think it's because it is an extension of the shmup/arcade playstyle (no miss) that requires mastery and starts to show how well designed a game's combat system is. A game full of forced hits, for example, is not following the fundamentals of combat design whereas in shmups forced hits are such a no no that no dev gets away with it ha.

@possumgrits825

Жыл бұрын

Not luck, skill. Congrats early on your mushi no miss.

@heyblasty8614

Жыл бұрын

@@possumgrits825 Thanks, i got it a few hours ago

Very interesting video Mark! I see what people mean when they say Shmups are simple. I might say instead that they are intuitive or that they have very "pure" gameplay. For instance, last night I played two board games. One of them was Chess, which I played with my friend's four year old son, and the other was Betrayal at House on the Hill, which I played with two other adults. Chess is a much more simple game; a young child is able to grasp the rules very quickly. Betrayal, which I had never played before, has tons of mechanics and takes much longer to learn how the game works. However, Chess is ultimately a much more complex and deep game, and the complexity comes from all of the ways the basic mechanics can play out. I think this is somewhat analogous to Shmups vs. other video games.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That s a great comparison! Yes absolutely:-)

Remember this: boxing is simple. Hit your opponent and don't get hit.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Same could be said about tennis :-) the thing is though even if the premise of these two sports are straight forward, the actual tactical mechanics involved in both of them make them extremely technical sports in the end.

@nimbylive

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Exactly. I think that anyone saying SHMUPs are simple just doesn't understand them.

A semi-alternate take here. Whenever I hear people describe shmups or other arcade-style games as "simple", I frequently get the impression that they're not so much referring to how nuanced or complex the gameplay can get - as you note, most of the time they're not overly familiar with a particular title's "under the hood" goings-on - so much as how innately approachable and understandable they are, in many ways, compared to others. That, after all, is the whole idea of any arcade title: someone can walk up to a cabinet they've never even heard of before, watch a few seconds of the attract mode, and immediately know the essentials of how the game works. In my experience, much of the time when the "simple" descriptor comes out it's done with fondness, i.e. remember the days when you didn't need to sit through hours of tutorials or pore through the manual/faq cover to cover before you could even get started? Sometimes it is condescension or premature dismissal, sure, but I think a lot of folks who play shmups more "casually" are drawn to them, not repelled, due to the "simpler" aspects of how they're designed; the term is used less along the lines of "simple-minded" and more akin to "simple pleasures". To that end, you are certainly correct that in order to play many shmups "properly" or to "fully engage" with them you need to know more than the basics, and that this can change the experience significantly; you cite Battle Garegga more than once, and its rank system and various scoring tricks certainly fit the bill. That being said, BG, like most arcade titles featuring such design choices, never communicates any of this to the player, and does so deliberately; as Yagawa has stated on the record, the whole point of that highly influential rank system was to steal credits from players who didn't know what was happening or why. The fact that people eventually hacked into the game's ROM to figure out how it worked, learned to play the game counter-intuitively to control the rank, and that this was eventually brought out into the open as an advertised gameplay feature of subsequent releases is a happy accident akin to combos in fighting games (another genre infamous for "cheating" to put players at a disadvantage they're never made aware of). More to your point, I've found that when introducing shmups to friends who don't play them much, getting too deep into the weeds too soon tends to turn them off; at least at first, they're just comfortable knowing that they only need to worry about two buttons and staying away from enemy bullets, and eager to just sit down and start blowing stuff up. The "simple" part is the draw; the "deep" elements can kill the appeal if they aren't allowed to rise to the surface naturally. The most successful such titles, in my experience, are immediately enjoyable on a very basic level, while also giving newer players tempting tastes of the more complex stuff, and letting them try fancier techniques and maneuvers at their own pace. In short, I don't disagree with what you say here, as using "simple" as an undeserved pejorative absolutely happens, and it's absolutely grating when it does, but I don't think that's anywhere near universal whenever the term does show up.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

A good point on the nature of the genre being more clear than most other genres, shmups def let you know what they are about and make no bones about it. However I just don't think the term simple can be applied accurately anymore. In the astroids days, sure I think it worked. But as the genre has evolved, even the basic gameplay elements have become more complex. Think of ket with it s lock on system for example. I would say a better way to say it is that shmups are a focused genre. And I don't just say that out of sensitivity or anything, I just don't think it's accurate and it gives players a false impression. Like we say, shmups are a simple genre, and then point some poor unsuspecting player at garegga, within the first minute of gameplay they are going to need some systems tutorials to even know wtf is happening ha. Imagine they don't know how the rank and autofire work, they ll never get past stage 4

@twitchinsal752

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground "Focused" or some other such term probably would be a more accurate descriptor, though I imagine that most people unfamiliar with the genre or only aware of the older/foundational entries just kind of default to a word like "simple" out of habit if nothing else. As you note, especially if they stumble upon games specifically designed to appeal almost exclusively to highly-skilled players they're certainly in for a shock, heh; as I mentioned previously, if a developer can strike a balance between accessibility for new players and depth for more experienced ones I think they've done good work, since IMO the future of the genre depends on both types continuing to pop a quarter into the proverbial arcade cabinet. To ping-pong off of what you say about shmups "letting you know what they are", another way I've phrased that sentiment is that shmups, more than most of their brethren, are completely and proudly unashamed to be video games: very little about how they work makes any sense outside of a gaming context (World War II planes firing unlimited lasers bigger than they are wide...but they instantly explode from a single enemy bullet and can only ever fly forwards? While big golden numbers appear in midair whenever they kill something?) or lends itself to sweeping (or, heck, non-sweeping) narratives or the like, but if there's one genre that's almost never concerned itself with the standards and expectations of any medium outside of its own it's shmups, and it's one of the reasons I still enjoy them so much.

What I think makes Shmups so damn good (and likely where this idea of simplicity comes from) is that a good shmup is designed such that you can get as simple or as complex as you want. You can choose to simply do a tourist playthrough, only engaging enough to see the game and move on, you can choose to play for survival where the games get more complex, since now you need to engage with mechanics more. Playing for scoring is where most shmups become extremely complex. I dare not try to score in some games I play, because it's so complex it becomes daunting.

I started about a month ago. Watched junkies vids over and over at work to the point I respected every game he talked about. Then found this chan. I owned one of those super emulator consoles. So I got plenty of practice on games everyone said was S tier. Have a PS5 and bought a Switch last week. I purchased 8 STGs for the switch. All from your list. I love playing them now. Just the price on some made them go right to the wish list. It's funny. I'm in my 40s. Owned all the console systems. First owned stg was R type for master system. At like 8 years old I almost beat it with no guide. I missed so many STGs because during Dreamcast days it went to all bullet hell and I just assumed it was for pros only. Now I can see how many wonderful games I missed and can't stop playing STGs. All because random KZread vids played at work and I learned about games people loved and in turn I learned to love them too. Outstanding content from you guys. Brought me right in to the fold. I did not care for modern STGs till I beat the first stage in a few BH games. Ketsu I played till I could beat first 2 stages without a death. Instantly loved the game. So many masterpieces that I had no idea even existed. I would say that till you beat at least 1 stage of a BH game. You don't realize how fun they are.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

This is an awesome story!!! I m really glad to hear my channel has helped you connect with the genre. Yes there are so many amazing games in the genre it s crazy! You could spend a lifetime just trying to catch up with all of them

oh OH? Like platformers, I've always considered shmups to be easy to get into, however VERY difficult to master. And that is where the joy comes from. Mastery.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes and that s also where the complexity of the design comes from as well. In order to create a game that emphasize mastery, there are a lot of underlying layers going on beneath the buttons. Hemingway's iceburg theory absolutely applies here. Shmups are the sun also rises of video games ha

Cool video, Man. I also hate when ass- hole game reviewers look down on Shoot' em ups. Countless times they will reference R-TYPE or Gradius, as if they are the only two Shoot'em ups in existence. I still love R-TYPE and Gradius but it makes them seem uninformed when they reference these games incorrectly. I think one of the things Shoot' em ups and Arcade games get no credit for is how they organically teach you to play the game. Also that's the beauty of Shoot' em ups, they can be as deep as you want them to be. It all depends on how good you want to get. Some people are perfectly happy crediting there way through a game, others will keep playing and learning until it's been mastered. I've always been the latter. Thanks for making a thought provoking video.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes only 3 shmups exist - gradius, r-type, and ikaruga ha

Your point about mainstream players not engaging with the system is very true, and it applies to a lot of other arcade genres. As a huge fan of beat em ups, I see this all the time. People will rate a beat em up poorly, or even give it the standard 7/10 non-review. They'll call it a quarter muncher and refuse to engage with the deeper mechanics. Hey, they got a credit feed to the end, so they "beat" the game, right? That's all it means to beat a game, isn't it? If they beat the game, then obviously, they must understand the mechanics, right? :D Arcade genres are probably unique for having a game where the player can reach a credit screen without having understood *a single thing* that was happening. :D Any other genre will force you to engage with the mechanics to get a clear, but beat em ups, shmups, run and guns etc with arcade continue systems will be happy to let somebody stand completely still and mash the attack key, periodically feeding in more credits.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, also anyone who uses the term "quarter muncher" non ironically should be fined and sent to prison for a year XD

@tehteh9893

Жыл бұрын

Wang Tuna, I remembered Comix Zone (a beat 'em up, but not arcade). It is one of the most misunderstood games ever. Everyone says "oh, this game is so hard, so brutal, I can't beat anything!" while in reality it is some kind of "puzzle beat 'em up", you have to think to correctly use items and pass obstacles without losing too much health. Of course, if your only solution to everything is smashing stuff with your fists then you won't get far in this game.

its a similar ignorance people put on fighters, saying things like "you just have to press the buttons faster to win". IYKYK

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Ha like when they show video games in movies, they re just hammering buttons XD

They are simple only in the sense that under the hood, underneath all the graphics, they are mostly a dot avoiding and shooting other dots, so they are relatively simple to make (making them well being a different story), but definitely not simple in the sense that they are basically the hardest thing ever and actually avoiding those dots gets very very complicated, and that is only possible BECAUSE of that simplicity under the hood. You would simply not be able to do the crazy things that shmups do without that. Imagine a platformer with the insane bullet patterns that you see in shmups. It kinda can't be done because you don't have as much freedom of movement. And it's even more impossible in 3D, when you have one more dimension to worry about and are not seeing the entire environment from the top. Basically, that kind of simplicity allows for a lot more complexity to emerge. It raises the ceiling of what you're able to do. Anyway, if playing shmups was simpler than playing other genres, people playing those other genres wouldn't do challenge runs for an extra challenge and you would see a lot more people beating shmups. In shmups, you basically have to be beyond that level to even play them to completion. It's basically a genre that requires that mindset to get anything done at all. Kinda comparable to games like the original Ninja Gaiden trilogy, that almost require speedrunner levels of skills to even beat them even though they are technically not that complicated.

"straightforward" and "easy to pick up" I could agree. Saying "simple" is too simple . That said there is something good to say about simple things too but I agree with your perspective and " simple" is out of place here.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! When they say "simple" they mean basic

Almost every genre of a game can be seen as simple as possible purely on the most surface level observations

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

It really can be. It's crazy how much this description of the genre of shmups has stuck. Part of it though, and maybe this should have been one last section, is that when articles are written about shmups, they tend to practically plagiarize earlier articles (look at my ikaruga is not a puzzle game vid for examples) to the point where even an opinion from 10 years ago will continue to be echoed and re printed over and over.

@2emo2function

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground some opinions just become the zeitgeist at some point theyre unable to be critiqued or become "facts" and its often annoying cuz limits all interesting discussion about a piece of art, like you almost can't have a conversion about dmc 1 without it devolving into "dmc 1 is dated just play dmc 3". Despite dmc 1 arguably being a better designed and better paced game but its dismissed cuz its ona surface level seen as a dated simple game with no merit outside of its status of being one of the first of its genre

I completely agree! Shmups can be complex too. But also I want to address, there is nothing wrong in simplicity. In fact, there is beauty in being simple. The best designs can be simple and pure genius. Concept of Zen like designs. For me, Hishouzame is like the pinnacle of how simple can be amazing.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I agree with what you are saying here. I love zen concepts and minimalist design. However when shmups are described as "simple" it s rarely from this tone. They are not acknowledged as particularly insightful game design. Instead simple is meant more like "basic"

@Ishmokin

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground yup i agree totally feel ya. Our genre is so misunderstood unfortunately.

I’m not good at Shmps but i love them , it’s one ship vs an army , one wrong move and you are done, it’s an adrenaline cocktail like no other

Nothing's more irritating than devs who look down on the types of games that they're trying to make, even when the resulting games aren't trainwrecks they'd always be made better with a more humble mindset & a more thorough understanding of the fundies

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

Does Sol Cresta got bad treatment from devs?

@boghogSTG

Жыл бұрын

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Never played it/looked into it, Kamiya clearly likes shmups even though none of the shmup minigames in his other games were great

@2emo2function

Жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG wdym mundus phase 1 was the most badass moment in gaming history along side the water level in dmc 1

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely bog! Especially because shmups have so many subterranean mechanics that a new dev is very unlikely to figure out on their own. I had this experience with you and shot limit, where when I started on House of Bullets, I did not have a shot limit and didn't even think about it, but once you brought it up and showed me what it adds to the game, I realized I should put the mechanic in.

@boghogSTG

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah and you already had a massive amount of shmup knowledge/experience under your belt between the DDP 2-ALL and lots of guides/mechanics breakdowns you did on your channel. It's really easy to underestimate how much effort it takes to notice all this stuff and connect the dots no matter how good of a dev or player you are

First and foremost, shmups are mechanistically simple. Dodge stuff, clear enemies on an autoscrolling screen. Any beginner can figure out most of those rules just by a few minutes playing the game (or just watching a cabinet). I think that is fundamentally good game design with regard to the basic rules. You don't have to sit through an hour long walkthrough of all of the systems of the game (including those that are frankly unnecessary). Learning through direct gameplay really is the way IMO. Especially with balanced difficulties that test the player in different areas so that improvement is organic. Now where I think the nuance lies is taking simple rules and building in complexity to the gameplay that is accessible to different groups of players. A novice will focus on survival, using the basic mechanics. An advanced player will have a very different experience as they will have developed the skills to appreciate the greater depth of game mechanics that are perhaps secondary to the basic gameplay. Intricate scoring systems, managing rank, etc. If the game can teach you those systems without you having to resort to a walkthrough, that's really good. I think this is where there is a clear line between arcade and home console. Arcade games fundamentally have very clear, concise game mechanics for those basic rules. You need that for the 'pick up and play' principles. All that applies to platformers, run-n-gun, fighting games, etc. You immediately understand what success and failure are (especially through repetition), and as you improve, you slowly begin to understand the nuance in the other games system. Instead of being reliant on blocking exclusively in fighting games, you learn parries or whatever else is present that comes with a greater advantage. Developers for home-console only games are often guilty of putting in superflous content (mechanics or y'know...infinite sidequests). They don't have to respect an arcade operators cabinet time. As I've come to feel for some modern games... they just waste your time for the benefit of having a 'longer game'. It's a low cost for them since it takes very little development time to copy-paste 'extra' game content. Shmups benefit highly from being difficulty tuned and having very precise mechanics. Knowing exactly what your hitbox is, makes it directly clear that failure was your fault, rather than some cheap mechanic that isn't well understood (hitbox irregularity drives me nuts in some games). Artificial difficulty through poor mechanics is well, horrible. But yeah, probably a lot of modern shmups with complexities under the hood do a poor job at educating the player through gameplay. It's hard for the complete novice to the genre to appreciate the nuance when it's obscure (especially if they're too terrified to even play it based on perceived initial difficulty). That might be why it feels like the genre could be derided as simplistic.

So much of modern game design is horrible. You mentioned it on a previous podcast-they’re so boring slow paced and samey. Every couple years a game with an actually good story comes out but most are childishly simple and uncreative. Give me a game that doesn’t waste my time.

@magicjohnson3121

Жыл бұрын

When you have games like Witcher 3 and The Last Of Us being considered the greatest games of all time despite people who praise it saying the gameplay is mediocre then you have a problem.

@TheOtherClips

Жыл бұрын

@@magicjohnson3121 since the story is rooted in the books It’s pretty good and I enjoy it but I can’t stand that combat and the world is still to sterile for me to get lost in it. I do watch story vids that people make of the witcher and similar games

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

It s a rare find with new games! Lately when I haven't been playing shmups I ve been playing PS2 era games and even not that long ago you can still feel that edge of arcade design influencing these games. That edge is now gone for the most part.

Excellent points you bring up in this video, Mark (wish this vid was longer). I love how you brought up SHREDDER'S REVENGE as an example of the similar disconnect that devs, gamers and journalists share when it comes to modern game design. That game is getting so much undue near unanimous praise from so many people, but it is a poorly designed beat em up, especially when you compare it to an actual well designed beat em up such as STREETS OF RAGE 4. Its sad that the lead designer has so much disdain for the design of the original TMNT arcade games Shredders Revenge is based on, and its even sadder that these clueless journalists echo his nonsensical sentiments. The same is definitely the case with shmups as a genre, as too many gamers. and journalists are clueless as to what they're talking about.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear you enjoyed the vid!! The disconnect between the hardcore fans of arcade genres and the journalists and modern devs is the side of an ocean it feels like these days ha. They are so adrift from that side of the player base I honestly don't even know we exist XD

@AnthonyFlack

Жыл бұрын

I do think those old Konami beat'em ups were simple to a fault, so I would say they were right to feel it needed something more added. And I loved the TMNT arcade cabinet for all the obvious reasons, especially in multiplayer. But I think you'd find playing for score or trying to 1cc a lot more satisfying with a Capcom beat 'em up of the same era. Actually the scoring in TMNT is quite comical. You get 1 point per enemy, including bosses. That's pretty simple.

@shinbakihanma2749

Жыл бұрын

@@AnthonyFlack Not saying the old TMNT arcade games weren't simple in their combat design, but compared to Shredder's Revenge, they're more competently designed 2D brawlers. I don't find Shredder's Revenge all that fun to play to be honest. I haven't played it on gamepass since the week it released. It's a mediocre game, as far as the combat design is concerned.

@AnthonyFlack

Жыл бұрын

@@shinbakihanma2749 - I can't comment on Shredder's Revenge as I've not played it yet, but I think most fondness for the old TMNT is due to it looking and sounding great for 1989, being 4 player co-op, and being Ninja Turtles. Not so much for the gameplay which even at the time I could see was quite limited, especially in the boss battles (likewise the Konami Simpsons game). Compared to the entertaining boss fights Capcom would come up with in games like The Punisher. The main limitation with Ninja Turtles as a concept is they can't access one of the beat 'em up genre's primary spices - they never change their weapon.

@shinbakihanma2749

Жыл бұрын

@@AnthonyFlack Well, yeah. The old Konami TMNT beat em ups are definitely revered largely due to nostalgia, and the fact that for their era, they were remarkable games featuring the Turtles - particularly visually. My point is that Shredder's Revenge is a poorly designed beat em up, for it's era. When you put it up against SOR4, Shredder's Revenge is sorely lacking, in terms of it's combat system. It's just not fun play, as far as I'm concerned. The only real appeal that game has, is in it's visuals and multiplayer. Also, I don't think they're iconic weapons are the things that limits a TMNT beat em up. I think incompetent design does. I guarantee had the studio that developed SOR4, did Shredder's Revenge, we'd have seen a way better brawler than what was released. I dumped Shredder's Revenge a few days after it released, and haven't touched it since.

I totally agree with you, and I even believe that the concept of a Shmup has a lot of potential to create fantastic games

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely!! The genre has so much to offer that I don't think gets recognized

First, that design 101 doc you linked is GOLD for someone trying to learn game development.. it will always be one of the simplest genres for a beginner to MAKE (you can quickly get up placeholder graphics and start fiddling with mechanics). That doesn't mean the genre itself shouldn't be taken seriously, and I struggled to find content where people went in depth on what makes a good Shmup. You got a sub just for that alone. Second, I've found the development into the "bullet hell" model interesting so it is nice to see that specifically covered. The even smaller hitboxes meant smaller bullets meaning more on screen are needed to produce a challenge. I was a fan of the golden age SHMUPs and I wonder if there couldn't be other ways to provide both a challenge and add depth.. most other genres have had a lot of cross pollination of ideas from all over, but this genre seems to have developed on a very linear path. Personally all the constant flashing and bright colors filling the screen gives me a headache in the new games. I feel like something cleaner to read and easier on the eyes would go a long way. Also, besides a few notable exceptions the visuals and theme are all very similar (military or space) and I feel that 1) toying with this is an easy way to make a game stand out and 2) can get people interested in the genre who otherwise would NOT (look at Cuphead which has a few bullet hell like levels and was POPULAR... a good SHMUP should be able to sell). I just feel like there is still a ton of room for experimentation in a genre where everyone feels like its all been done. If I ever get something published hopefully I can contribute to that in some small way.

Agreed! I'm laying Shmup for years and I'm finishing to create my own Shmup for PC, it's really not simple! You always had "pattern" for enemies and bosses and now there is also innovating Shmup. It's a style of game but surely not simple, as a creator too, it should be easier to create another style.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes I do think making a solid shmup is a lot for complicated than making a solid platformer

I think it's because mainstream reviewers never really engage with stg beyond base survival tactics (Same thing happens with fighting games). The deeper aspects of scoring is completely lost on them. I do think it's a bit of a problem with the design of the games only providing limited, usually poorly translated, tutorials (which revolver 360 definitely fixes, would love to see you cover that). However the largest issue is due to the lack of quality in mainstream reviews, no research or study, just credit feed through and maybe get the general consensus from the community and edit that into a review lol

Great video. You're absolutely right, any shmup can be seen as simple if you just bomb and credit feed. But weaving through complex bullet pattern after pattern, truly learning the system so that you can get that no-miss or that 1cc is a thrill on it's own. Shmups are a unique genre where it is as fun to watch someone skilled play as it is to play. Also, the use of ESP Ra. De. in your video actually made me pop the cartridge in. That should have been brought stateside, but I digress.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah shmups are really fun to watch! It can be entertaining to watch normal skilled players as well since the high stakes always make for high pressure. Also shame on M2 for not localizing their recent releases, the people want their esp ra de

This was the perfect video to show up just as I started playing Akashicverse. Respect to all the fellow players who have gotten immersed in the struggle for better scores and survival in shmups, and have learned exactly how "simple" they are.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Exactly my dude! I could have also brought up hellsinker on this topic, that shmup is so complex I still don't think I understand all of its systems

Although not an advanced player in shmups, i took an interest in cave games just because they looks flashy and cool. Shmups are definitely not simple unless you just play it for fun and continue everytime you die like i do (because really i just suck at playing games in general lol) and i have a special charm on playing this genre since i grew up playing Gradius series.

When I think of a complex Shmup, I think of HellSinker. I went through the web manual so many times to understand how each of the different shot types work and interact with the incoming bullets, and i still don't have it all. Great video

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Agreed 💯. I should have mentioned hellsinker in my vid but holy crap that game and stellavanity are crazy complicated ha, yagawa would be proud

Can definitely hear the passion in your voice for this one. My first thought is that simplicity doesn't have to be a bad thing, but then of course you mention that it's just the condescending viewpoint of certain people or groups that make it bad, and I think that's true. I would rather shooting games stay "simple" instead of get the modern game treatment where they get loaded with bloated mechanics that do nothing, and the game becomes press X to beat the boss and watch the cut scene.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes exactly. If simplicity were respected in a zen sort of sense, I d be fine with the description if it was with the understanding that the simple things in life are impacting. But that s rarely how the term is used, instead it is meant in the way of "basic" like this is a cave painting of a genre (pun intended)

Every point you said is very well articulated. Modern games are only "complex" in the sense that they have a lot of superfluous systems. Or in a single word, bloat. So often I've seen a game add a mechanic or design an entirely new system just for a single sidequest or minigame, neither of which really contribute to the core gameplay loop. Or mechanics that clearly clash with the core gameplay loop, which take away from the overall experience instead of contributing to it. There is a lack of a clear, refined design goal since there is such a big focus on quantity over quality. (On this note, for the love of god, please make sure the game runs properly on all targeted systems before even trying to add addtional crap to it. All the recent mainstream game releases seem to have performance issues on PC but run fine on consoles, or vice versa. To oversimplify it, there's a basic "hierarchy of needs" for game development too: no obvious bugs > good core gameplay loop > extra features. Game developers focus too much on the last one when it's the least important, and completely neglect the first two, which unsurprisingly results in unsatisfying gameplay.) So, sure, shmups and retro games appear simple on the surface, but this apparent simplicity belies their underlying complexity. Meanwhile, modern games appear complex at first glance, when in reality there's little substance if any.

@lunaria_stg

Жыл бұрын

Also, I wonder if we should stop including continues in shmups. In other genres, if you game over, you don't expect to continue exactly right where you left off right? Like you don't knock out 50% of the boss's health, game over, then resume the fight from 50% boss HP right? At the very least, you're expected to restart the fight completely, if not going back to your last save. So why should shmups be any different? Get rid of continues so that the reviewers and casuals can't credit feed. The way those people "play" shmups is hardly even playing. Just play through the game once, with zero engagement with anything in the game. They could literally just do nothing and credit feed to the end, and the experience they get won't be any different in the slightest. And to those who think removing continues will scare away people, let's be real. The people who would actually play the game won't be the ones who quit just because they can't credit feed. The people who only play the game once through by credit feeding are the ones who will refund your game after "beating" it in 30min. So you're not really losing out on anything by dropping continues. Who knows? Maybe by dropping continues, the reviewers and casuals may actually learn to engage with the systems and gain an appreciation for them, instead of jumping to the conclusion that they're all the same thing. Then, we might actually see a change in the public perception of this genre to something that is closer to reality.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That s exactly right!! The bloat of modern games is seen as deep and "full of content" but really the true mastery of game design is cutting away at all that is filler and leaving an elegant core gameplay loop. Modern games are not often purely games to begin with anymore, they are more like collections of a hazy main gameplay loop with all these sub games thrown in. GTA 5 is a perfect example of this.

Great video, hoped for longer rant tho :D

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

You know now that you mention it, I could have added one last section where I talk about the borderline plagiarism of gaming articles where if a guy calls a shmup simple 10 years ago, that opinion is going to be carried forward like a computer virus through all subsequent gaming articles about the genre. Though I did outline this phenomenon pretty well in my ikaruga is not a puzzle game vid.

Great video! While I don't necessarily agree that platformers are all simpler than shmups (though, it is fair to say that quite a lot of them are), I do absolutely agree that shmups are far, far more complex than a lot of people make them out to be. I also think that the idea that arcade game design is "outdated" is spread around all sorts of genres - even in racing games, when you look at the more small, indie releases that claim to capture that old feel, they will never actually play like, say, SEGA Rally - maybe they will try to look like it, but they will always try to do something else entirely with the gameplay due to the fear of the very idea of being considered as some "quarter-muncher". Auto-scroller levels in platformers are definitely the reason why a lot of people are so opposed to auto-scrolling in general: as much as I'd like to defend those levels and name some that do it well, it's very hard for me to name even one. Most of them are actually the absolute opposite to what shmups are: a lot of auto-scroller levels in platformers are out-right braindead, with nothing to challenge the player, solely existing to make the game feel longer and more "varied", which is really unfortunate. That interview with the Shredder's Revenge developers was a pain to read - why the hell make a "successor" to beloved, classic games if you hate the very philosophy they were built on?

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes exactly marx. The autoscollers of platformer games are just fluff and added flavor that actually hurts the overall flow of the game typically. However, imagine if Mario had an autoscroll stage where you had to run full speed to keep up with the scroll ha, and one or two mistakes and the scroll would crush you, now that would be interesting

I think when people call arcade, action, whatever games simple, really all it’s coming down to is length. Turtles in Time-simple. Shredder’s Revenge? Eh, little longer, little less simple. If a game can keep somebody playing for 20+ hours before they see the credits, must not be that simple. Think RE5 versus a standalone Mercs game. Both the same gameplay, but one is seen as a “proper” game and one is not. Mercs 3DS was slammed, probably fairly in some ways, but probably the ultimate factor was that it was not a “proper” game. I don’t always agree with your videos, but one I definitely agreed with was your “What Killed Shmups” video. Yeah, the save feature did it. Now there’s an underclass of games. “Simple” games. Games you can play through in 30 minutes or an hour. Obviously they don’t have a lot to them-if they did, wouldn’t they be 50 hours long??

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely my dude, right like I ve seen games that are two hours or so of really tight gameplay (red dead revolver for example) and these are seen as incomplete by today's standards. And the trend is getting worse, not better

Arcade shooters or shmups if you prefer, have given me some of the greatest experience's I've had in gaming. The high of your first clear, the low of being stuck on a stage 5 boss for three days. It's an amazing genre I've been playing since the early 80's. I've seen the evolution. It's been an amazing ride. Hope it continues.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Shmups are just too pure of a genre to every disappear, especially in today's context of more and more bloated gameplay experiences ha. I think we are going to see a new breed of arcade/console hybrid releases coming out (arcade design with console features) and I do think that will be the future of the genre moving forward

@possumgrits825

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground i think we've been there. The one on playstation made by the company that does final fantasy. Can't even remember and I own it. Gradius v in my opinion would be the pinnacle of of what your suggesting at this point. Would love to see more but there is no financial reason for companies to make this type of game. Remakes or ports of games long forgotten are more than enough to quench the thirst of diehards such as myself. I know there are outliers (danmaku) etc. But its a fan driven genre at this point. Unfortunately, there's not enough fans. Peace and grease brother. Keep yourself and yours safe in these troubling times.

Most people think 'simple' because it has no 3d characters, no plot, no dialog, no cut scenes, no interactions. This is just extra from the points you made.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah all stuff that is not core to the medium of gaming basically ha. They want the frosting and not the cake.

Arcade games are victims of their own success. They needed to be able to appeal to someone who wanted to jump on the machine with no idea what they were doing and just blast enemies until they ran out of quarters. Well, they did that, but made people think that was all there is in the bargain. You see the same deal with people saying they don't want to play fighting games because they're too old and lack the lighting reflexes when, in reality, reflexes are pretty low down the list of reasons you would be good at a fighting game. The idea of repeating the same stages and polishing your performance is also pretty alien to gamers today.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That is absolutely true. The concept of practicing gameplay to begin with is not a factor in modern game design at all

The point here is to make it functionally simple. Add different weapons with different attack patterns, different enemy types (with their respective attack patterns), and the level's environment adding challenge beyond the shooting (e.g. rising columns of fire or falling spikes).

I can beat most games while asleep. 1cc shmup runs are intense. I come to shmups for the challenge. I would describe almost every other genre as simple. Shmups are hard-core.

@ryanpierce5460

Жыл бұрын

I've beaten 15 of the hardest games made. I love video games from modern to classic. You're right, I do it for the challenge and it doesn't hold ur hand. If I struggle at a shmup and then beat it....feels amazing.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That is a really fun inversion of the term. Maybe I should start doing that honestly, when I review more modern mainstream games, they are simple in combat design usually, that's for sure 😃

Hi, Mark... my main grip with modern shmups is approachability. Meaning modern Games don't do Sh** to explain their inner systems. Example (bad one) Hellsinker! Without reading lot's of articles & watching lots of videos, you will not get the game... Radiant Silvergun... bloody brilliant SHMUP but no easy access for normal's... Then theres the DEVS meaning Generation Tiktok or Generation Social Media, Generation Woke... the interview with the Shredder Dev on HG101 Podcast showed me... yes a smart Guy... but his Knowledge about Brawler was lacking... aka poor Design Choices, because he did not know the classics and the framework. And based on that made his own poor (he thought smart) conclusions. If you listen to to HG101 Podcast (Arcade Classics) at the moment there is a lot of things unsaid and because of that some episodes are very Light... on facts... or maybe more reading the Back catalogue of Retro Gamer... cheers

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah hellsinker absolutely needs some kind of comprehensive guide. Honestly an idea I am going to do for house of bullets is make a video tutorial for the game people can watch, devs should start doing this. It s not video is hard to produce these days

Loved the video. It definitely covers why people who have never truly played (and when I say played, it getting to really understand how these games work) a shmup talk bullshit on it. The first shmup I learned was Touhou 06 back when I was 12 or something, and now I'm 23. Growing while playing DDPDOJ, DDPDFK, Deathsmiles and Ikaruga did made me change my opinion a lot. Currently I have finished Radiant Silvergun and holy... What a masterpiece. It pains me that a lot of people will never truly get a lot of that game's brilliance, exactly because they have no knowledge on the inner workings of the genre as a whole. Just a small feedback, can you look at the camera in the next videos? Your aesthetics and editing is evolving a lot and your videos have been really engaging lately, but this is the only minor issue I have with them, so I wonder if you could look at that. Cheers, I love your content and thank you for that design doc. I want to make my own shmup on Gamemaker eventually and that doc saves lives.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed the vid!!! Yes the more you play the genre the more layered you realize it is. On the camera angle, I ve tried the face on camera and I just don t like the angle, I am going to play with the camera angles more though

@LixeiraDoFrost

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Ohhh I don't mean the angle. I like it tbh. I mean your eyes. You should look at the camera.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

@@LixeiraDoFrost Do you make subtitles on your videos? I always wanna know your opinions in the video but I aint well at Portuguese

@LixeiraDoFrost

Жыл бұрын

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Unfortunately no. My scripts are both quite untranslatable due to cultural jokes and they get long sometimes. Fortunately I have some English related projects coming together soon, so I have some news eventually!

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

@@LixeiraDoFrost cool!

Four games for people calling the genre too stale: Hellsinker, Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo, DoDonPachi DaiOuJou and Armed Police Batrider. First requires to have you a doctorate; second demands your very best to even survive and reach past fourth stage; third is hard as nails even being simple with all the chainings; and the last is the most intricate one as well you have to mind your team and keep them alive

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

All rock solid recommendations! I d love to see a mainstream review of hellsinker ha

@mrblackjacker32.03

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Outside of IGN Japan and Famitsu expect 6 at best because it requires too much management on everything and "too much bullet."

I agree with you on pretty much all these points but I have two things to add. Graphics. No matter whether it's 2d or 3d or somewhere in between graphics have improved since late 80s/early 90s. Even casual players or non-gamers know this. They see Call of Duty and think of it's pretty much Doom but with better graphics. Forza is like SEGA Rally but better graphics. People who are a bit more astute say no, see they added more weapons/cars/levels/etc. Occasionally someone will also say they also added something less tangible like "stealth" or "leveling". That's basically what I think shmups have done. They aren't typically offering 30 unlockable levels and weapons. They've added lots of things that don't really appear on screen, like all the scoring systems. They haven't added 26 selectable ships because they focused on solid design and they know these 3 or 4 are fine-tuned to work within the rules of the game without breaking the balance. Too many levels aren't always a good thing especially if they're half-baked. Too someone not deep diving though they just say "yeah it's prettier and has more bullets, but every genre is prettier then it used to be and this just looks like more of the same with a new coat of paint". They never even pop the hood. Second is story. Shmups have stories but it's rarely the focus (who seriously wanted all the voice and animation playing Raiden V?). Part of why games exploded as a legit entertainment form that wasn't "just for kids and dorks" was the push to make games more like movies. It's not all bad but platformers/rpgs/fps/etc. almost all attempt to have more complex stories then they did 30 years ago. Shmups mostly don't. People see them as just arcade throw backs because they've focused on evolving gameplay nuances instead of trying to make fully voiced cinematic set pieces with QTEs.

@iwanttocomplain

Жыл бұрын

I think GTA3 was the point games became mainstream. The themes were that of popular culture and not space aliens and anime fairies. But you can have narrative in a shmup. But you do it through the artwork. Thunderforce 4 is the very best example of this. It’s not really a story, but you progress through a series of stages that are linked narratively. In the bomb raid stage you see the earth being well, bombed. The striye stage revealed the mothership emerging from the ocean and you battle the Gargoyle Diver sea creature. Then desert and space station and you see the bodyguard to the final boss but you can’t damage her yet. Then a short cut scene shows the Thunder Blade being attached with a very solid metal riff to accompany the attaching sequence. Then you weave through a crowd of dive bombing ships to destroy the mothership thrusters, move around the ship to destroy it’s defences and it is finally destroyed, a homage to level 2 of R-Type maybe. Then you make your way through the alien vessel to reach the two final bosses, the later of which is much easier. She loses her thrusters and starts climbing the tunnel, then she can’t climb any more and skids back down, sending sparks flying, then of course explodes and you get a small animation of your ship escaping the bright explosion then some exposition and lovely pictures with an ending theme which is genuinely emotional. Overall, the emotional aspect of Thunderforce 4 really hits gone and it feels like a story has just taken place, like an epic mange film, with a warning to humanity to not make ai computers and think about what you did. I think it’s the greatest game in the genre. At least in terms of narrative.

I think something that might lead to the conscience that Shumps are simple could be the fact that many games of other genres have small shump sections in them. So, people get the idea that, if you can put small shump parts into a larger, more "complex" (notice the quotes on complex there) game, then it must be more simplistic then the main game that said section, level, exc appeared in. They get to thinking that "there's no way this could ever be a full game on it's own! Who would play such a thing?". In some cases, these sections actually have a lot of love and care put into them, cause they're put in by devs who are shump fans to begin with. The thing is, I think people look at them like a good distraction to the main game, but don't want to spend to much time with it as they want to get back to whatever it was the game in question was doing, and then they think they know what playing a real shump must be like. IDK, just a thought. They're are tons of shumps, even old ones, that have a ton of complexity and mechanics to them, but people sometimes don't want to put in the effort to learn them for some reason.

@MikeThePsykat

Жыл бұрын

I just realized an issue with my own hypothesis, and that's that many other game genres ten to "gest star" an other games without this happening to them. However, I think a second part of this is genre ingorance. That is to say, that if you play, let's say, racing games for instance, then you're not likely going to think that a small racing portion of a game is indicative of the whole genre. HOWEVER, I think that for a lot of people, their only exposure to the shump genre ARE these small bits inserted into other games, thus it because their primary point of reference. Again, just a thought, I could be wrong.

Please do more of these type of videos, you have very interesting insights.

I too have a shmup I've been working on in Game Maker. It's a sidescrolling one. I want to make it a game you must get through on limited lives. I've been wondering if people will react too negatively to that. I give the player hp, and have made sure the difficulty moment to moment isn't absurd or unfair. I can't say I have a complex scoring method. Most of the complexity comes from enemy patterns which aren't always the same. I too dispise Simon Says gameplay. As far as complexity of shumps it depends on whether it's what the player experiences vs programing it. A basic shump is probably easier to program than a platformer or metroidvania, but depending on what you add to the base that may not be the case. Collision especially in vertical shooters is typically easier to program than the wall, slope, and moving platform collisions in platformers because it usually just damages your ship on finding a hit in a shump. The enemies, their formations, and especially bosses are where shumps shine. Mario bosses in the 2d games are usually very underwhelming compared to ones in shumps for instance. They usually have more complex varied patterns, are larger, and require quick reflexes. Successfully evading and attacking isn't actually that simple for the player because of this. It seems like game journalists are viewing complexity from how difficult is it to make versus what complexity the player experiences.

Thank you so much! I'm an indie game developer new to the shm-up genre and your shm-up game information was helpful!

I never had an issue with this comment depending on the context - if it's derogatory I obviously have a problem with it because it's missing the depth that exists beyond the surface concept, but personally a lot of the appeal of shmups to me is how it's pure "kill everything and don't get shot" game design absolutely pushed to 11. I think that simplicity of the core concept is one of the benefits of the genre, I love how I can boot up any random shooter on MAME and have fun dodging bullets and mowing stuff down. Maybe "easy to understand" is better phrasing than "simple" because when made properly, the comment is more about the absolute minimum skill floor to have fun than it is about the big picture of all a game's systems and design.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

My primary issue with the comment (which is uniquely applied to shmups) is that it just isn't accurate. Imagine reading a review about the simple nature of the genre, and then buying battle garegga or a cave game on PS4. Your going to get destroyed and have no idea what is happening, you could spend years not even looking into the games rank system and getting a false impression of how the game even works

@Yakkers

Жыл бұрын

​@@TheElectricUnderground Playing devil's advocate here, but Battle Garegga is pretty far from the norm. I do think we're kind of on a disconnect here and each talking about different things (which is my fault since I'm the one who branched off), I guess my point is just that the comment can be made in earnest as a positive thing but only in certain contexts and with the right followup phrasing, although that's generally just not done. I guess to me the beauty of this genre is how clear of a concept it is on a surface level which lets anyone jump in and have fun with it, but then it goes EXTREMELY deep beyond that once you want more. However, "it's a simple genre" is absolutely not the right way to express that and I 100% agree there

The thing about shmups is they appear more simple on the surface. Just dodge the bullets while on a scrolling background. Credit feed if you die

Great video, Mark. Completely ageed, but it's very complicated to deal with that sort of issue with the average gamer. At best we can convince a person or two and call it a day.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

No kidding Anne, I think just having the alternate take out there is probably the first step. It's likely not going to overturn the decades of discussion around the genre, but hopefully the conversation is at least re-examined.

The least simple genres to actually play if you ask me are shmups and fighting games. I got good enough at pretty much every genre out there that I can blow through games pretty quickly. Years back, I would beat one or two games a day and beat like, one or two hundred in one year and most of them were platformers. After that, though, I guess I quickly got tired of being good and got into arcade games, and they kicked my ass, particularly fighting games and shmups. And now many years later I still suck at both of them because they are insane and getting good at them is basically the least simple thing you can possibly do in gaming. Shmups being the hardest of the two if you ask me, even though fighting games have very difficult inputs compared to anything else (just doing one special move is more complicated than any single action in pretty much any other genre). Turn-based RPGs may actually be some of the most simple. Even under the hood, in the actual source code, they are not that complicated.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

right and I think what's important to understand about shmups and their design, along with fighting games, is that "under the hood" of the inputs of the game, you actually have all these complex systems holding the gameplay up and making it much deeper than merely moving around the screen and pressing fire. If that were really all the genre was able to achieve in terms of complexity, I think it genuinely would have died out long ago (how many people play astroids for example). But that wasn't the endpoint of the genre, in the arcades the genre kept pushing forward and innovating all these new designs and ideas, and very clever ones, so that, if you sit down to design a shmup today, you are going to need to be aware of many complex design ideas and mechanics. But all of this is generally still completely unrecognized in gaming reviews and media.

@censoredterminalautism4073

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, making a simple shmup like a Space Invaders clone or maybe even up to a Xevious is simple, designing a good more complex shmup, though, that's definitely harder than designing the walking simulators that people seem to like these days. Shmups can't have 30 minutes of walking between the parts with substance, they are all substance. So, a lot more thought has to go into level design. Especially when people have been playing them for so long and are used to quality, and have plenty of games that they can choose to play forever for score instead of whatever new game someone makes.

I love your content and what you do. As for shmups being a simple genre, I believe on the surface yes it is. It has the simple pick up and play that most modern games fail in. It's so simple a child could pick it up, yet so complex, a seasoned player can evolve with it.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

This is an interesting case actually. For example I do have a son who I will try and help play games from time to time. I fired up ket and handed him the controller and tried to explain all the things he needed to do, it was actually much harder for him to pick up than when I had him play a platformer like super Mario bros.

Easiest way to disprove "Shmup is simple" statement? Show them Hellsinker.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I d love to see a mainstream review of hellsinker, it would be funny to see them try to talk about the game

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground " You can't use continue on this game, its unfair. " says by the person who credit feed and says shmups are tpo easy

Most people probably approach playing shmups from a perspective of credit dumping (originating in arcade monetary design), or playing on easier settings with more bombs enabled and autofire too, in a game that is not designed around autofire. If you told the average person to attempt to 1cc Dodonpachi or Raiden 2 for instance, after maybe 10 or so runs they would look at you like you were crazy, give up and then go get stoned as shit and play Assassin's Creed or something, probably while also calling shmups cheap, outdated and only for nerds lol.

Eh, They don`t talk about "simple" as depth imo. What they are saying is this : You don`t have to care about story, You don`t have to care about tedious upgrades or subquests, You don`t have to care about grinding, You don`t have to wait for engaging enemies. These are praises for someone(including me), but not-buy-this-shit elements for someone(idk but they exist).

I remember someone made a comment somewhere saying “Every Shmup is Gradius with added bells and whistles” or something like that. You clearly don’t play these games that often do you? Is what I’m thinking

Great video with many philosophical points. On a tangential level this "simple" can be connected with the current term "retro";a term that in recent times I have started to question more and more. I wonder why shmups are considered simple and retro when rpgs fps, beat em ups are essentially the same idea as they were 30 years back.Plus you're bang on the money regarding the patronising simplification of gameplay in modern titles

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah "retro" is an interesting term. I m divided on how I feel about it because I respect older design, so retro for me is always a positive. But a lot of people do not respect older design (it s "simple") so retro could be seen as outdated

I didnt play that much Shrumps...but even i understood GleyLancer, Super Aleste ( SpaceMegaForce) or ThunderForce having not the same " Simple" Mechanics 😅 Alone the SoundTracks of these Games are Genius and not simple like Marios Music everybody can sing with 3 Years Old during listening the first Time 😂

How can a genre with game modes that take 10+ years for players to clear, be called simple?

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Ha yeah battle garegga full rank mode has only been cleared by one person - kamui

I love shoot em ups and their craziness of only the player character being a hero and destroying WAVES AND WAVES of enemies alone. And their simple but amazing gameplay. Wish SHMUP was more popular :(

So listen, I love shmups, they are typically less complex than other genres. I’m not talking so much about the gameplay or even necessarily the mechanics but just from the components that make up the game. You typically don’t have over the top stories and massive cutscenes like other series do, heck they’re typically not 3D. Typically shmups take the sum of their parts and make something much more fun and complex than that sum.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I do see what you mean for sure, like they are less complex than virtua fighter 4 or ninja gaiden 2 (Xbox 360). However I think this "simple" label is not fair because it isn't applied to other 2d genres like jrpg, platformers, or metroidvania, when these are not any more complex than shmups typically. With shmups there is this wierd trend of ignoring the majority of their history and just focusing on the very early arcade titles

I've been 1ccing shmups since my early childhood ( began with rtype and nemesis gb back in 90's) untill now with many of more recent ones i still didnt (ddpsdoj^^..). Even before internet i've experienced an amazing evolution of the genre and i'm so grateful the "shmup" scene is still alive and full of treasures ( with unique new game/score systems or older titles playable today) Scoring/1ccing is for sure something that arcade games were about so these must be balanced and tested, just like patterns in a rythm game, "judging" a Shmup without even knowing it is a misunderstood. Great video, just as usual ;)

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That s awesome you ve played the genre so long. Shmups are a genre with serious staying power, that s for sure 😊 thanks so much for the great comment and tuning in!

@streondal

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground i stopped reading game reviews long ago so i'm surprised to hear what you pointed out here in the video, its like ppl complaining about "too basic gameplay and too high difficulty " while" easy to learn, hard to master " is the mark of a great arcade game, with a highly rewarding progression curve. Most of my fav. Games have 3boutons max only (except for deathsmiles, which is underrated for its accessibility, a great one for newcomers) You're now one of the few sources i follow blindly, aside of a few reliable" underground "forums, when i want shmup to be considered as it deserves. The shmup community appears to bé veeeery involved, sharing translations, scoring advanced tips.. We're probably not so many but heh, we're here ^^

Halo - walk about, follow an arrow and shoot things.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I know how do FPS games get away with not being called simple ha.

@JohnshiBRPG

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Doom and Quake are better FPS than modern AAA ones due to requiring attention across all three dimensions and all enemies can attack you by surprise. Take cover and fire quick.

Hi Mark, as an exemple of an arcade rail-shooter (light gun) which makes an awesome work to fill the game with gameplay contents, in an innovative way and by keeping the short and dense range of the genre, is Ghost Squad by AM2, perfectly ported to Wii. The 16 levels system is brilliant, the best light gun shooter for me, a masterpiece.

I guess it depends what you mean by simple. If you were to write all the variables down on a piece of paper them shmups probably are the most "simple". Doesn't mean there's no depth or they're easy. Just relatively simple.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, I think when they simple they are mostly thinking basic

Just found your channel thanks to the WantedDead video. Then the RE4 remake...i was going to dislike and leave but you have very valid points. Now that I hear that you know GM1 and GM2 it would be great if you did a video on programming a game for non programmers. I'm trying to make a shoot em up, something between Contra and Metal slug. Im good at pixel art but not much else. Regards from Mexico and as a fellow Ninja Gaiden (xbox) die hard fan!

Interesting discussion. I feel like a lot of genres probably get this sort of reduction coming from outside viewpoints. I got into pinball in recent years, and I definitely never knew there was such depth to tables and thought that pinball was mostly the same prior to that. On the subject of modernizing arcade games: I think one of the problems is the loss of replayability in design. I don't really want my shooters to be dozens of hours long with dozens of potential upgrade paths. The value in a game that lets you experience it in shorter bursts and gives you reason to optimize your gameplay and make it further on a credit is lost entirely.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh yes absolutely!!

To play for survival IS simple enough to understand though let's be fair. The concept is what's simple. That doesn't mean the genre is. Game journalists are still journalists and mainstream journalists are, at least in my country, not known for their intelligence or (ironically) their way with the written word... Edit: thanks for the heads up on that shmup design guide. Will be interesting to read.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

It is simple, but only in the sense that most other genres are simple. Platformer, just run to the end of the stage. Metroidvania just find all the keys. Shmups are a straightforward genre, but there are many mechanics in post 90s shmups where if you don't understand how they work, like rank, even survival wise you are not going to last long

Interesting take that shmups are a “simple” genre. I got into it alongside soulsbornes and fighting games specifically because I was intrigued by the challenge

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes calling shmups a difficult genre is very accurate :-) that is true ha

I love simple Shmups. Defender for example will always be one of my favorites. 😉

@ryanpierce5460

Жыл бұрын

great choice, I love modern shmups yet I tend to go for the classics myself.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes and I would give that era of shmup design the description of simple. I think that s accurate. However, post defender the genre has kept evolving and adding many complex systems and designs, and that's where I think the term doesn't make sense anymore

one day I hope to make a shmup. No idea when I'll get round to it. I have no intention of following any convention, but the discussion of mechanics and design is very interesting. thanks.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I think a good way to think about shmup design ( and most game design) is to be open to playing with the conventions, but be very mindful of the fundimentals of the gameplay elements. And I think that s where euroshmups go wrong. They want to play with the conventions (which I think is fine) but they don't respect the fundimentals

@eazyrat

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground what would you say are the fundamentals? Is there no situation they can be played with? Would be interesting to see a vid on just this.

"(...) it goes open world half-way so it's complex now" encapsulates the very core of the issue. I do not believe there's even a need to justify or provide proof to the statement that arcade design is frowned upon.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes exactly, it's just an accepted notion that open world and non linear games are superior, for what reason exactly? Who knows ha.

Removing words can add meaning. SHMUPs understand this.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I know the genre name is all over the place. I made a vid about it waaaay back in my early days kzread.info/dash/bejne/oKKrusmGnqiqqc4.html

shumps till the day i die! (not a gamer, just someone that occasionally enjoys gaming)

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yep that s a demographic of shmup player that other genres typically don t have

Bullet hail style shmups _are_ simple. You weave around the geometric patterns and plot a course. That’s the whole game. You have two weapons: giant focused laser and spread shot to spray the whole screen. You keep it on spread until the boss comes up. Your positioning on the screen relative to the enemies is more or less irrelevant. They are popcorn or damage sponges. They only exist to add an element of visual movement and narrative and are superfluous to the gameplay. R-Type on the other hand is quite complex. You have three types of weapon: bouncing lasers, crawling along the walls and big circles frontal attack. Then of course your ‘force pod’ which you send around the screen or attack to the rear for a rear attack. It’s probably the most deep and strategic shmup ever made, to this day. There a lot of potential for a shooting game to include more complex mechanics but that tends to be an avenue which doesn’t get explored because the genre is generally regarded as one which does not lend itself well to thinking, alongside the meat and potatoes of shooting down enemies whilst avoiding the bullets. Or just avoiding the bullets of it’s a bullet hail type of game. The potential for complexity exists well enough in how complicated you want to make enemy movement and behaviour (think the nightmare that is the later levels of Fantasy Zone), as well as introducing stage hazards and interactions. Thunderforce games sometimes include the need to shoot something to move it out the way, also Viewpoint does that. It would be interesting to see a shmup given a puzzle element above that of say Ikaruga, which is really just see how many enemies you can shoot with the correct polarity in a row. Or just aiming for high scores, which in the end is just willy waving. I’d prefer a level of quick thinking and problem solving, combined with twitch reactions to complete the level successfully over, say, grazing buttons for extra points.

I get so much stick off my COD playing mates who take the mickey out of my love for so called "simple and boring 2-D Shooters". Crazes me. Gimme Cotton Original or Crimson Clover above any FPS. Like Christ how can people say the autoscrolling is basic, in Eschatos it's like a f***ing rollercoaster!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes I think it comes down to the Mechanic being used really poorly in platformers, and since it s in a Nintendo game then that s the definitive version of the mechanical in people s minds

"Modern-Game design" means piss-easy, over-bloated, and reliant on crafting and "skill-trees" I'll pass, lmao

12:17 yea the elitist modernization crowd is BS, sonic mania didn't really feel like it added anything that different from the original and they didn't say anything, but an arcade game comes out and it has to be "modernized" to simon says. I think we all know gaming journalism is closer to a ponzi scheme than journalism. Hell modern journalism in general

@2emo2function

Жыл бұрын

Have you considered that games journalism largely sucks cuz its just a shit job which leads to shit content

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes it really feels like modern devs believe themselves to be more sophisticated and talented than the arcade devs of the past, so when they are tasked with making a new game in an older IP, it is just a matter of course to them that they would sand down the edges of difficulty and introduce paint by numbers game mechanics.

@zuffin1864

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground yea instead they should just be worrying about making it a consistent non glitchy experience with no hiccups rather than a bubble rapped iteration, so that way you are in full control of the fighting madness, (fight'n rage i dare say) so ultimate beat em up is achieved

Agreed! They say the same thing about Beat em ups. And then fighting games, (which are a sub genre of beat em ups), are somehow way to complicated for the mainstream haha. I really appreciated the jab at platformers and open world games too. So much more I wanna say. I wish you really went in harder on this topic. Hope we get a sequel video to this one at some point. Fantastic video none the less!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah open world games and Metroidvania are the bane of my existence these days it feels like ha. They swallow up any linear game with promise it seems. I can absolutely envision me making a sequel vid on these topics :-)

I just started to play these types of games, and for the first time on my gamer life, I'm actually happy when I die, the difficulty and stuff on the screen gets so ridiculous that it makes you want more. ATM I'm playing on keyboard and my hands get tired very fast, can you suggest me if I should try an arcade stick or a pad?

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

If keyboard tires your hands (it does mine) def switch to stick. Both pad and keyboard tire my hands out too

@rvs_rogue7049

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground do you have any stick suggestions? I'll use it only for shmups and fighting games. At the moment I'm waiting the new version of the Nacon Dajia

There needs to be real Star Wars Shmup. Side scroll, top down mix. Massive rpg elements like Sky Force. Upgrades earned and all the different ships. Why hasnt this been made? And more importantly can this be done asap.

Shmup is a simple genre, lol! Sure, try to 1cc Gun Frontier with max 30 Hz fire rate. Ignore the bomb management, rank management, scoring, checkpoints, enemy hitboxes and don’t stop shooting. It’s just a game where you move 8 directions, shoot and bomb. Simple! :) I fell in love with the genre because for its short burst there is a lot of decisions to consider even 20 minutes ahead of the run for any reason that is not visible on screen.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes gameplay density! That s my term for it (I have a whole vid on the subject)

And why hasnt the best bullet hell game ever, Giga Wing 2 on the current systems?

By simple, I think they mean bar of entry. In which case schmups are the simplest. Now I don't think that's a bad thing. Makes it easier to get people's foot in the door.

The fact that the best shmup players are usually the smartest, is testament to how 'not' simple they are.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes exactly del. People should listen to interviews I have with the superplayers, it s very easy to tell they are operating on a high level of dedication and knowledge

@DELx999

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yup, they are the Smartest for sure.:)