The final Fuji scene where they spread the ashes in the lake I thought it was really cool. Fujis line , “let your hands be the last ones to hold her“is a callback to the first episode when Mariko was talking to her about her son before Fuji gives him up to be unalived. Also, the podcast of the show said that the lake in Canada, where this was filmed, was the same lake that the authors ashes were spread in as well. So there’s a lot of symmetry there.

@JP47471

2 ай бұрын

GREAT EFFIN'G SCENE!

@bogeyb200

2 ай бұрын

what's interesting is that in the book Fuji keeps her vows and commits seppuku when her deal with Toranaga is over, despite Toranaga's efforts to get her to change her mind. They make her more "gentle" here in the series.

As in the podcast, they said it right there - they have to put that scene in, but where to put it is the key… Of course, put it in the finale after Mariko’s death, because Blackthorne finally realises that her way to love him is to keep him alive, even if she has to die and to refute what Blackthorne wants. ‘Passion’ transcends from romantic love to a ‘love’ that is deep but selfless - her loyalty to a cause that is in her third heart… Blackthorne, on the other hand, loves in terms of freedom. The way he loves Mariko is also to keep her alive, but he doesn’t realise that he doesn’t have the tools to keep her alive, until he lets her go - once he’s ‘free’, he can find the right way to love her, some way that is also transcending from romantic love… Thus, it has to be in this moment - his realisation of giving peace to Mariko by volunteering to be her second as his act of love; his final recognition that Mariko loves him in a way that is not about being with him but to let him live - that he finds out an alternative way to love, that is through the cracks of all the rituals, a certain respect to order so he can in return be ‘free’ and have no fear of taking ‘death’ for a much more beautiful outcome… That is when he earns his ‘seppuku’ moment. Unlike that in the book which is more about assimilating to the culture, Blackthorne’s ‘seppuku’ act (which is not a seppuku to be honest, more like a jigai that is mirroring to Mariko’s final moment as he also makes a speech about his reasons of taking his own life) is not bound by order or the worshiped idea of ‘honour’, but from an honest reaction of his compassion towards the villagers, his love to Mariko and his gratitude to what she has done for him. He’s free from ‘freedom’ (as he turns his head around and sees his alternative future, holding on to Mariko’s rosary back in England, and becoming his own relic in his ‘museum’ - fuck this as he says; he would rather die now for a purpose to honour Mariko and save the village)… This is a powerful testimony of love and happiness - death is happiness, and as long as Blackthorne can live in a way that is constantly honouring ‘existence’, he’s delight…

I think Toronaga cannot admit how much he likes Blackthorne, because of what he had to do to he lifelong best friend. He has internal pain he cannot show. To know his sore spots allows his enemies to poke at them. Why does Toronaga want to keep Blackthorne close, the enemy of your enemies is your friend. He is now his best friend and tool. As he said, his presence kept the enemies distracted with him on behalf of the Catholic priests. Who did Toronaga kill in the village? People on his list of people he cannot trust from information from his long-time spy. I was a big GoT fan and was disappointed once they rush to non-logical conclusions when they ran out of the books for guides. Shogun is the most perfect 10 hours of TV this decade. In my mind, Blackthorne reminds me a bit of The Hound. A man who had done bad things but will risk himself to help people who really need it and chipped pieces of ice off his heart.

@annfryer4048

2 ай бұрын

I agree. Remember Toronaga was sold or given away as a child by his parents. I can only imagine the emotional, mental, physical and spiritual trauma he went through. I believe that is why he has his guard up and is extremely clever and manipulative… but he had to be to survive. 💔🥹

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@annfryer4048 Completely agree. Blackthone is his safe best friend. He has no connection to his enemies to betray him with them. He can form him based on his needs because of him limited access to the outside world.

@majorlazor5058

2 ай бұрын

I want to agree, but this Toranaga might actually just find Blackthorne fun to have around because this Blackthorne is more or less only useful for cannon training

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@majorlazor5058 He is also the shinny object that takes the attention of the magpies trying to kill Toronaga.

i dont get why so many people think john returns home... its pretty fucking clear its his dream of returning home that dies. he stares right into it at the seppeku scene and rejects it. dying old in a bed not being able to chooses your fate and still clinigng on the and old love while your grand chidlren run around calling japan savages.. he went fuck that,

Best show of the year. Glad it happened, sad it’s done with. I’ll be picking up the book soon, to immerse myself further in this world.

@samuelmonsalve9913

2 ай бұрын

The best for now. The bear season 3 has so much potential

@brianinglis3805

2 ай бұрын

Until House of the Dragon season 2

@majorlazor5058

2 ай бұрын

I had such low expectations but this ended up being an all time great mini series.

Steve holds on to the book way too much. I also read it but I understand the changes they made and also appreciate them. What I don't understand is that so many people including Steve don't see the "flashforward" as a dream. The cut to the aftermath of the exposion made it very clear. And it is in the title!

This was a pleasure with you guys! Thanks for keeping on bringing great content! Shogun will be missed!

This has been the best after show I've ever followed.

Hi John and Steve, I love your videos on this great show. However, I can’t agree with your view re showing the Sekigahara battle and a wham bam ending. In this fictional historical timeline, the battle was won before fought, so showing it would be gratuitous. I believe that’s why James Clavell also ended where he did

@joesmith1946

Ай бұрын

Not true. In actual history, they fought a big bloody battle, involving several factions, and at the crucial moment, a couple of warlords changed sides and Tokugawa Eiyasu (Toranaga) came out on top. But I think for the purposes of the story, it's not necessary to show the battle. The book ends with a 1 paragraph epilogue saying there was a big battle and Toranaga won.

Really LOVED experiencing Shogun with your reviews! Big cine-files junkie and getting yoi both on youtube for some mindful discussions hit the spot! Arigato!!!

Excellent coverage fellas. Really appreciate you!

Blackthorne most likely felt guilt regarding what happened to the Erasmus crew, and how his personal ambition (first Englishman to cross the Magellan Strait, etc.) led them to their doom. This is what bubbled over during his outburst at Toranaga. I think I'm fine with them moving his seppuku scene to the end. The only thing I didn't like was Toronaga saying he only kept Blackthorne around because he made him laugh. They'd finally had the failed seppuku scene, which was the beginning of Blackthorne's transformation in the book, but then cheapened it by driving home how little it mattered (with Toronago's remark). And regarding the Yabu catfish catching scene, I thought he was concussed.

@ameliacraiig4193

2 ай бұрын

The show seemed to try & belittle Blackthorne's character too many times for my liking.

@GaliWalker

2 ай бұрын

@@ameliacraiig4193 for me it was the last Toronaga “court jester” crack that was too much. I guess if you haven’t read the book it doesn’t make a difference, but as a huge fan of the book, I preferred a Blackthorne worthy of Mariko’s love.

To bring the first scene, the flash foward, and the sepeku scene into perspective, look at it this way, by attempting sepeku he killed the part of himself that would have been in that bed in England

I would just like to say thank you guys for doing these every week and teaching me more about the book but also just having an enjoyable discussion about something that I feel like we’re all passionate about. I’ve have no idea if we’ll get a season two of which if we do or don’t I’m happy with either. If they do give it a season two then I’ll be sure to be back here for these discussions.👍

I listen to a lot of podcasts. You guys were nearly my first back in 2016. Still top 3. Really appreciate you both. Thank you.

I respect Steve a lot, but his thoughts here frequently reminded me of my least favorite Cine-files episode (other than the super early ones), Master and Commander, where rather than appreciating the greatness that was achieved in that film, he and the guests were just hung up on it not being precisely what is in the books. So much here worked within the alternative context and stakes as created within the show, particularly Blackthorn's attempted suicide in this episode. Where Steve was hung-up that it wasn't exactly like in the book, but the alternative approach made sense for this version of the character and his arc, where frankly I found it far more moving that what is in the book through how it developed.

@dalenewstead4729

2 ай бұрын

I like Steve too. But he needed to let go of the book by about the 2nd episode. Also, this isn't a show that should be assessed or analyzed like a Marvel movie or pro wrestling storyline, which is something I felt John and Steve constantly fell into.

What no one is saying on any of the reviewers' channels is that this modern adaptation is very much influenced by Western progressive/leftist academics' views of Japanese history and Clavell's novel in particular. I read the novel way back in 1980 and have read it at least a dozen times since. It's been hilarious reading reviews of the book over the last forty years and watching how they evolved. Within the last ten years or so, the novel is often described as "white savior" literature, a characterization I always found curious given that in the novel Blackthorne is only the main character on the surface. Put another way, the target audience were Westerners being introduced to Japanese history and culture and they see 17th century Japanese society through his eyes. Clavell's books were intended to introduce Europeans, North Americans and Australians to this huge world in Eastern Asia about which so many knew so little despite having waged a world war in the region and subsequent wars during the Cold War period. Clavell repeatedly makes it very clear that Blackthorne is not the main driver of the story; Toronaga and the other Japanese power players are the ones driving the story. Blackthorne is the prism through which the readers are viewing the story. The Catholic Church and Portuguese/Spanish are aliens who serve a limited purpose and add context but no more than that. All the Europeans, Blackthorne included, are, at best, pawns, curiosities, barbarians.

@joeyartk

2 ай бұрын

This is clearly the feminist version. I hope if they ever make another one, they make it to actually follow Japanese history. The way real characters in Japanese history are slandered and misrepresented is offensive. Especially when they heavily promote how authentic everything is and that it's based on real characters. They clearly know that will confuse many people into believing some of these things actually happened the way it's portrayed.

@corvuslight

2 ай бұрын

Exactly how I have always seen it as well. For me, it was always clear that Blackthorn is our window into the beauty of Japanese culture. He starts off thinking they are savages and then comes to see that, in many ways, their culture is far superior. He doesn't save the country, turn the tide of war or teach the natives a better way. They change him, he adapts to them. Over all that, he's barely more than a pawn, a distraction to Toranaga's enemies and not really especially relevant to the larger picture. But hey, this weird narcissistic guilt that European culture lavishes on itself is strange to me, considering I don't really see any other cultures bother to even consider it for their culture's past actions.

@dukerollo1116

2 ай бұрын

​@@corvuslight exactly finally someone says it. Why is it only the west jas to constantly apologize for the padt but noone else does. Apparently noone other than white Europeans have ever done anything wrong in history

@joesmith1946

Ай бұрын

I agree; I read the book, and while it starts with Blackthorne being the main character, it evolves to where the main character is Toranaga. I really didn't give a crap what happened to Blackthorne or anyone else, as long as Toranaga won.

his mission was open a "trade route" to the Japans. that "trade route" is implied as the same as what the Portuguese in Japan were doing, which was def an exploitation of Japan (ep 9 mentions the black ship coming back from macau trading overpriced silk for the criminally underpriced japanese silk). it's only until this ep that he completely let go of his mission because "his war is small".

In the TV version, I think Yabushige did lose his mind with the death of Mariko. It started with his inability to help Blackthorne block the door and then his guilt of her death and admitting his responsibility openly, in front of the women who sent the message of his admission to his nephew.

@React2This

2 ай бұрын

He was always crazy. Wanting to boil people just to study their screams.

@gregoryjones8763

2 ай бұрын

I’m pretty sure he didn’t help block the door because he was supposed to let the ninjas get in and capture her. He didn’t know she was going to stand in front of the door during the explosion.🥴

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@gregoryjones8763 he also said they would all die from the explosion. Blocking it was the only way to prevent that. He was obsessed with death because he was afraid to die.

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@gregoryjones8763 He was playing both sides, he let the shinobi in and warned the house they were under attack by the shinobi. He is a master of chaos. He was not responsible for their success. He could have just not run with them and "hid" separately.

I love this video. Hearing you talk about the season finale makes me want to get the book .

Thank you for this podcast, you guys satisfy my curiosity every time i watched each episodes. I love how Steve comparing the book which was not mentioned in other shogun review. I hope they make a second season covering Toranaga's saga, much like netflix's Narcos.

The Cine-Files breaking down a tv series was a fantastic experience! I hope to see it again someday. Thank you!

Thank you for these 9 episodes. I really appreciate the insight from Steve on the difference in the book. It inspired me to listen to the audiobook for myself. 🙏

The showrunners have said that they finished the book's story in the show and they don't have any plans for a season 2.

Shoutout to the commenters on all these reviews, I learned so much y'all. Loved following this show with you John and Steve

Maybe this has been said, but I haven’t heard John and Steve say it. So here goes. The changes in the plot at almost every level have been trying to convert this out of a “white savior” story. The book and the original miniseries are totally that arc, and as John has said, the Last Samurai takes that line and runs with it. It’s why Blackthorn is less skilled, less developed as a character, etc. the story may suffer a bit, especially if we have expectations set by the book and original series.

@Cuban-Jo

2 ай бұрын

I don’t think it suffers. If anything this is closer to what happened in the real story. The real Blackthorn was not a white savior.

@corvuslight

2 ай бұрын

Sorry, But I don't understand why people see the book and original TV series version of Blackthorn as a white savior trope. He's well educated and a survivor with a minor gift for language and that's about it. The entire time he's being used as a pawn and goad to and by the powers around him. Nothing he does wins the day other than the time he provides a distraction for Toranaga to get away from Osaka. He doesn't come in as the white guy who teaches the locals a better way, they teach him better ways. He comes over time to appreciate their society as superior, not the other way around. So what, in your opinion, makes him a white savior?

@joeyartk

2 ай бұрын

​@@Cuban-JoThis is in no way closer to what happened in the real story. Neither had any role in the battle at all and they never met. Gracia's death was the only thing contributed by either, and that was nothing like what was depicted. Almost everything here is fantasy.

@Stress-Free-K

2 ай бұрын

@@Cuban-Jo Nicely put. Plus, the real hero who comes out unscathed is Mariko. That's also a correction that the previous retellings failed to make clear.

@Stress-Free-K

2 ай бұрын

@@joeyartk I don't think any is saying Shogun is any more than a fable. One that relates to true events. The main point is that this current rendition centers the focus on the Japanese. Where Japanese culture, language and characters take center stage. Far more so than previous retellings of this story. And that correction is a welcomed one.

Not sure what I'm going to miss more, this show or you two discussing the show afterwards. 😭😭 My take on the discrepancies between the book and the show is, the book tells this story from the western point of view and the show tells the story from the eastern point of view. In the book Blackthorn is the hero because of course, a western perspective always has a great white hope or white savior to save the day! But, with the show taking an eastern point of view, the story places the Japanese characters more at the center and Blackthorn is more part of an ensemble rather than the center piece of the story. More or less the same story but with two distinctly different points of view. I don't think one is better than the other-- just different. Thank you both for taking me on the journey with you. Signing off! ✌🏾✌🏾

Mariko had more screen time than any other character

@earlskinner615

2 ай бұрын

It was her show. She was its heart and soul.

I loved Shogun. I’m sad it’s over. Thanks for all of the reviews. 👍❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥

32:36 The phrase "infected by what happens in the book" needs to be iconized immediately.

The official podcast mentions that the intro was Blackthorne's vision of his future. Not his actual future as I also initially thought. Still processing the ending. Enjoyed the show overall. Some of the digital compositing at the end wasn't great but it didn't take me out too much.

@davinrsmith

2 ай бұрын

they subtlety showed this although I only realized also after listening to the show's podcast- he still has Mariko's cross in the dream and he lets go of the cross in the ashes scene with Fuji

really loved your too reviews of this show and hope you two do more shows together on your you tube channel

Understand what Steve is saying about Blackthorne’s seppuku attempt; felt like in that scene for me he was giving Torranaga the motivation to be his second because of his own personal guilt with marikos death

After this i started scrolling down to look for your review of The Blue Eyed Samurai. Did neither of you watched it? It's awesome.

Saw a video of Butaro talking about using a real sword in one scene to cut through a wall. He spoke perfect, American sounding English. I hope to see him in more things.

@chazzerous

2 ай бұрын

That’s his stunt double, not Shinnosuke Abe himself.

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@chazzerous I saw Butaro talking about using live steel and there was someone that looked similar to him, but his hair was not shaved on top. The one talking looked identical to Butaro. I will see if I can find the link.

@chazzerous

2 ай бұрын

@@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025 I have seen that video. That is Darren Scott, his stunt double

@shopahauliquewithjacquelin7025

2 ай бұрын

@@chazzerous The look identical, get casting on the stunts. Both very handsome. Mairko had the two best looking men vying for her affections.

What Shogun has that GoT didn't have after going off book is history. Not sure how I feel about a season 2 but as Steve said, there's a lot of history that happens after the book

The ending was beautiful to me, it was almost like a Haiku poem. The huge battle was all of the human & political mechanizations. Blackthorne screams "I'M USING YOU" and Toronaga smirks knowing that he is the one who is actually USING Blackthorne. Toronaga had killed his previous Goshen hawk and now he has a new one. We get glimpses of Blackthorne back in England with the knowledge that he did go on to serve Toronaga for much longer and participated in a battle, that's the dream within a dream. A possible future that never played out? He still had Mariko's cross in that vision of the future so did he ever leave Japan? Probably not. The Spainard warned him he may never make it home.

Man i loved this finale, thanks for the in-depth discussions! I feel like i shouldn’t even read the book 😂 I don’t want to fall out of love with the series. I hope fx throws in a truckload of cash for them to bring season 2

12:30 Toranaga definitely planned her death, may not be the way it happened, but he knows Mariko won't come back alive

@MrChaosi

2 ай бұрын

yea that why he sent Yabushige with them to osaka.. it was to make sure she never made it out alive

I'm still suffering from Mariko in episode 9. And thru episode 10 you can tell John really missed Mariko .

Thankyou for this review! This was the best 9 episodes of a show iv watched in years, and didn’t mind the reveal that Toranaga had this cold plan, I just feel like it was very poorly executed. So many honourable died for his dream, and they gave their sacrifice no gravity with his reaction. That he kept the Anjin around as a jester, and that Marico and his best friend were only pieces on a chess board, not people he valued and was still willing to sacrifice. Terrible execution on a great twist/idea. Just ends with a whimper

Do you think the flash foward of blackthorne with all blurry lines and himnholding Mariko cross was a hallucination of him holding on to something that's not in his hand because it looks likes he's a dying old man?

Loved the show but I agree with your thoughts on Blackthorn.

Steve Morris = Legend!! 🎉🎉 Great episode. I’m gonna rewatch the show in a few weeks in one go. I hope it stays at one series. Quality over quantity. The showrunners say there may not be season 2 and frankly I’d be happy with that.

After all your insightful commentary, (which I thoroughly enjoy,) I’m glad I came to this not having read the book or watched the original mini-series. Because I didn’t have a pre-conceived notion of Blackthorn’s character, I was able to take him for who he was in THIS rendition of the story. And it really worked for me. In the context of a 10 hour show vs a several hundred page novel, pacing out Blackthorn’s transformation until the end of the felt right. For viewers coming to the show fresh, I think Blackthorn rapidly adopting excellent Japanese, understanding the culture, and committing to Toranaga’s cause by episode 5 would have risked turning Blackthorn into a “Mary Sue” trope. He would have come across as too competent and skilled for the amount of time perceived to have passed on screen. I know the show runners wanted to create an inverse of the 1980’s mini series. Originally, Blackthorn had to be the main focus because the audience needed him to function as a translator into feudal Japan. This time, they wanted to tell the story through a Japanese lens. And yes, I know the show wanted to avoid the White Savior trope. However, allowing the narrative to be carried by the main Japanese players naturally placed Blackthorn in a backseat position without it feeling forced. And honestly, I really liked it. His character may be drastically different from the novel, but I never felt any heavy handed “wokeness.” His journey felt honest. He came across as a savvy survivor, a stranger in a strange land, with an understandable longing for home and the life he understands. As a personal opinion, I hate remakes that exist to solely capitalize on well known IP. I strongly feel media should only be remade if the show runners see an opportunity to tell a new story from a new perspective. In the 1980s mini series, Blackthorn is a window into Japanese culture for a Western audience. However, with the increased popularity of foreign entertainment in America and a willingness to read subtitles, an American audience in 2024 doesn’t need Blackthorn as a tour guide. Instead, we’re allowed to join Blackthorn’s journey, experiencing his frustration, confusion, bewilderment, and eventual respect and reverence for a culture wildly different from his own in real time. Which I found to be a very rich layer to the story. I can understand how jarring it might feel to folks coming to this with an existing background. It’s hard to see characters you love radically altered. I just wanted to add my thoughts on how well this version worked for someone approaching it with no prior knowledge. 😊

How did you NOT think Blackthorne was trying to use the Japanese? The only time he wasn’t was when he grew close to Mariko, but otherwise he repeatedly says how he will do things to get his ship and we’ve know he wants to use them to destroy the Portuguese. It has been literally spelled out for 9 episodes now. Also the first episode literally has him explain to the crew that they should all plan to tell the same “just trading” story, while it was clearly not the truth

If you want mindless non stop action for the sake of looking cool, go watch a Zack Snyder movie.

@OrionInSpace

2 ай бұрын

To your point, I’m actually really glad they didn’t do the big battle because if you noticed the green screen that they were using at certain points in this episode looked absolutely horrendous and if that’s what we could have seen if they did the big battle then man, I’m glad I got spared for that lol. People have to remember this is also on a television budget that utilize real locations and what not. Who knows if say they wanted to do the battle that Hulu wasn’t down for them doing everything practically and they wanted to utilize the budget more for visual effects. Or maybe they just didn’t have enough money for it. If this was a movie, they probably could’ve done it but at the same time the poetic way of which they went about it felt better.

@nont18411

2 ай бұрын

You are wrong though. Zack Snyder movie doesn’t even look cool.

@ItsDrogonTime

2 ай бұрын

Here to say LOL and you’re 💯 right sir

@tomgun8146

2 ай бұрын

If you want mindless non stop action go see Jool7793's mom. Stop being a dork.

Most people only took face-value on Toranaga’s final words on Blackthorne as if he treated the Anjin as a pet. But I don’t think what he says is exactly what he means, and to be honest, ‘he makes me laugh’ doesn’t mean he’s not treating him as nothing… Reason is we need to see back what is Toranaga’s actions towards Blackthorne in some crucial moments. As a matter of fact, they don’t actually have a lot of interactions throughout the series. Most of the time Blackthorne is constantly with Mariko, but as I said before, this whole affair can be orchestrated by Toranaga to keep Blackthorne by his side. Toranaga knows that Blackthorne has his own agenda and he doesn’t care. Keeping Blackthorne around is his plan, not until the big earthquake that forces him to change his strategy. That moment, Toranaga probably has mixed feelings: Blackthorne is no longer useful in his plan, but the very moment when Blackthorne saves him, he also sees this person as someone who should be treasured, someone who speaks to him… Thus I still put my foot down that episode 7 is as strong as the rest of the other episodes, because if you see how Toranaga, Mariko and Blackthorne interact, they’re not directly showing their relationship, but through what they do can give us hints on how they think about each other, as well as how sensitive these three people are. Blackthorne is not a clueless person. He has already sensed that his gifts and titles seems to be meaningless, and he wants to understand his role in this Crimson Sky mission. Fact is, there is no role for Blackthorne in Crimson Sky. Thus, Toranaga says he won’t discuss Crimson Sky with him. If it’s not because Blackthorne develops this relationship with Mariko, he probably won’t react as how he reacts, that is to not make a scene and says, ‘Whatever fate may brings’ - I speculate that Blackthorne knows he’s a pawn here. Of course, deep down, he refutes this idea of being used, yet he also finds himself not able to leave because of Mariko. A trance of depression hovers above him on that beach and he starts to treat the ‘absurdity’ as ‘fate’ because he feels that there’s nothing to fight against by that time. The outburst by the end towards Toranaga’s surrender illustrates that Blackthorne is right, people will die for Toranaga’s own success (and he acts out like that is mostly because he wants Mariko to listen)… and Toranaga must have known that Blackthorne speaks the truth… After Nagakado’s death (which to me is half of what Toranaga’s speculate will happen - yes, he’s a person who doesn’t see his son’s life as the most important thing, as long as he has sons), Toranaga let go of Blackthorne. Superficially, it’s because Blackthorne already shows his disapproval towards Toranaga, so he has a reason to dismiss him. However, if we study the whole plan, Toranaga needs this free spirit to act according to his terms, and he knows that he can’t force him since he is a person who survives by putting his fate in his own hands rather than to accept whatever comes. Thus, Toranaga makes Blackthorne’s status neutral and ambiguous, let him have ‘free-will’ to see if he will act accordingly… Interestingly, when Blackthorne approaches Toranaga and gives his condolences, Toranaga glares at him. You can interpret how ever it means, but the fact that Blackthorne makes Toranaga feels things in a way that is different from others probably is the reason why he still keeps him around… So, when Toranaga says ‘he makes me laugh’, he probably means that Blackthorne is a ‘fool’, and a ‘fool’ is always the wisest because he speaks what he sees, and that connects Toranaga to something which he will never express to us what that is. As Blackthorne resurrects and finally understands the meaning of ‘we live and we die’, Toranaga saves him and gives him a purpose to live on. This is how Toranaga shows Blackthorne that he considers him as a friend. Yes, it’s a test, but Toranaga knows that Blackthorne will pass it, because he knows that Blackthorne has transcended to ‘loyalty’ through honesty, and that is something Toranaga deeply considers…

I'll start by saying thank you for this commentary. You two were great at breaking it down and articulating your interpretations. I'm not that deep of a person I guess, I understood Toranaga saying he makes me laugh as a cheeky way of saying how much affection that has grown towards Blackthorn. The seppeku and enemy scene I didn't take as a declaration or repentance of his time there. I took it as multiple attempts to stop the treatment of the village. He asks first, no, out of desperation he plainly states he's the enemy, and made up a bullshit reason why he his, no...I'm going to kill myself and let my sacrifice stop the treatment. And that finally made Toranaga react. That's why I liked the scene with FUJI right after, how important his feelings are for everyone he has grown affection for, Mariko, FUJI, the village expanding from the gardener. But that's a pretty surface level interpretation

This is a great review, not just of episode 9, but of the whole series. An often brilliant, frustrating and confusing show with much of it simply, ‘lost in translation…’

So it's not a 2nd season? because I wanted more

Still unsure from the finale! 😮

@24X7CARZ

2 ай бұрын

It’s just right!

More Steve on the channel when!? When, John, when!?

Tadanobu Asano as Yabushige is the best actor/character in this show

I understand that people wanted a big battle to end the show, and that's the usual Hollywood way of doing things, to have this big action spectacle, but that's not really the point of the story. The book ends with a paragraph basically saying what Toranaga said to Yabu- this is what will happen. In actual history, there was a big huge battle, involving several factions led by powerful warlords, and at the crucial moment, some of them changed sides, and Tokugawa Eiyasu (Toranaga) came out on top, and he and his heirs ruled Japan for the next 250 years. William Adams became a great friend of Tokugawa Eiyasu and never left Japan.

I hope there is a season 2 but the show runners said no

Regarding Blackthorne calling Toranaga an enemy, have you not been following the story? He was a man consumed with ambition. It's evident in episode one. His attacks on Catholics are mentioned in the rutter. Rodriguez mentions it. That 'nasty business" is part of that ambition. When he meets his shipmate in Edo, he is accused of being too ambitious. Blackthorne doesn't then just knock him down, but beats the crap out of him, if not kills him. He has huge guilt and is confessing it to Toranaga at the end. That's why he attempts seppuku. And when he fails, is literally reborn as more Japanese in spirit. He has given up his ambition. The scene with him as an old man is that ambition. That's why the title of the episode is "A Dream Within A Dream." That's Blackthorn's story arc. And I've read the book many times over the years and saw the original miniseries as well.

You make what you preach. This show itself have its own eight-fold fence, and I’d argue that that’s the beauty of it, because we are watching ‘dreams’ that link to our reality in a high degree of associations rather than a show explained everything clearly so we just need to accept it as face value. Even Toranaga at the end might not be totally truthful to Yabu. Saying him keeping Blackthorne is for laughs might be just another throwaway lie. He at the very beginning might already know he needs Blackthorne to stay, and I’d argue that he even orchestrate the affair between Mariko and Blackthorne in order to make sure Blackthorne will not leave - thus the gifts, thus the willow world times, thus having Mariko to be close to Blackthorne… all these are done probably because he can read them right away and knows how to move his steps to secure his strength… But it doesn’t matter whether that’s the truth, because the point is ambiguity is reality, that’s why there’s no concrete revelation of what these characters are actually thinking - the third heart among them…

I really wish I hadn't read the book before seeing this show. I love that book. It's one of my favorites, one of the best books ever written. And it completely tainted my viewing of this show. I can not stand how much they much they undermined the phenomenal character of John Blackthorne. He's so much more intelligent, thoughtful, and proactive in the book. The relationship between Toronaga and him doesn't make any sense to me in the series, and his relationship with Mariko was kind of baffling to me as well. It's not really fair to judge the show in comparison to the books' greatness, but it is what it is. I'm glad everyone else seemed to enjoy it much more than I did. I'm actually jealous

I'd think you're expecting too much from Toranaga. He is a Samurai lord and about to become a Shogun. John is a pilot. He is a peasant. Hatamoto maybe but just one of his hatamotos. The fact that Toranaga himself stopped John from harakiri alone tells you about his affection for John, though.

@stevemorris , I actually think Toranaga said that about Blackthorne with affection rather than Goodfellas, I'm a clown I amuse you, but I agree that unlike in the book the series did nothing to build up a relationship/friendship between the two..

I would love to watch a season 2 but at the same time, I think the story has been told.

This show was phenomenal and the way they ended was like a poem and I dug it....5 OUTTA 5!!!!!

I think when Blackthorne said to Toronaga that he was his enemy I just felt he was trying to give Toronaga a reason to let him die with Mariko. I think he wanted to be with her in the Afterlife

My take was Black throne was on his death bed. It wasn't actually her cross but before his death he remembered the moment he let that her go of Mariko. Him imagining that he was holding that cross gave him peace and that he will finally be with Mariko again.

@JC-hq7iu

2 ай бұрын

It was a dream. He dropped the cross in the lake

「オーガは、彼が足元に花を押しつぶした瞬間に、彼の貴重な葉のない枝を失いました。結局のところ、姉妹」 “The Ogre lost his precious Leafless Branch the moment he crushed the Flower underfoot; sisters in the end, after all” For the first time in the entire series, Ochiba sama looks directly to Ishido while talking to him; in all other episodes, she glances at him but looks away. That was the most subtle, passive-aggressive death stare I have seen on screen to date.💀🫣🪦 Yabushige and Toranaga smirking at each other in the end was awesome, too. Yabushige got the best end he could have gotten, considering all he has done: realizing that whether he knew it or not, he has served his Lord Toranaga excellently. And maybe, just maybe, lightening the burden in his conscience a bit. Goodbye to our favourite sociopath. 🙇🙇‍♀️🙇‍♂️ Blackthorne kills a possible future version of himself-an old man, filled with regret, clutching on to Mariko’s crucifix-by mirroring Mariko (literally doing a ritual su!c!d3 like a woman [a blade through the heart] instead of seppuku [slicing his belly open] like a samurai would) in order to protect Ajiro: the first completely selfless thing he has done in the show; and also by letting that exact same crucifix go into the water along with the ashes of Fuji-sama’s family. And to think he did all those things mostly as an act of kindness to Fuji-sama… she deserves the best. 🥹🥹🍑 Also, the fact that Anjin used the word 詰まらない【つまらない】 (tsumaranai) when he said “my war is small” can also be translated to “my wars are petty/trivial/silly/worthless” in reference to his ambitions and designs for England and his war against the Catholics. That was him letting go of his personal ambitions for something greater. The setup to be in a position to win the final battle is mostly complete, and the broad strokes were revealed, but the details of the plan and how the battle ensued are still hidden. So who is ready for a “new/separate” mini-series, titled “Sekigahara”? Ohhh, and what was Toranaga holding in his left hand just before it cut to the title card? 🪶✝️🎌

So…very glad u guys did this review of the series , good stuff After this episode I definitely want a spinoff series based off of Mariko’s Legacy…, starring Anjin Blackthorn, Buntaro and Father Whats-his-face it’s called… MARIKO’s MEN 🤘🏽 Yall work on the plot Its a sitcom

But how do you know it _wasn't_ the director's note, Steve? To just assume Cosmo chose to act confused on a whim, is doing a disservice to him, the director _and_ editor. Why would they be SO detailed & focused on the motives of every other part of this story but with Anjin's, decide to slack & be vague? I think Blackthorne was not as fluent as in the books so *_was_* in the dark for a lot of the time, without Mariko's translations. It was a deliberate move by the show to make his character have less star quality, in order to enhance Toranaga's leading man status; something I abhorred about this adaptation. Glad Blackthorne had a bit more airtime in this finale, though.

Imo, imo... This was probably the best episode.

I loved the show overall but I could have used 1 or 2 more episodes, it all felt a little fast. I also felt this way with The Last of Us, where I love everything that happens but we get there too fast.

Yeet yeet

The logs showed they attacked Spanish and Portuguese bases and shipping

I think for Blackthorne earning 600 kokus and owning a region of land is far greater than his would be fate in England. So he'd rather stay in Japan.

There will be no season 2. The Japanese actors aren't going to invest in a non-story for the sake of the US audience. Many of these actors have other projects waiting for them back home.

Blackthorne claims to be the ENEMY, in part, becuz of the horrible pirating he did in his ship's log. But more so, as additional fodder for Mr. T to kill him. Cuz the Anjin is grieving heavily over Mariko's death. And Toranaga sees this clearly.

The actual battle was a mess, literally a confusing mess, which is probably why it isn't depicted in the novel. However, the do believe it was won because, and will use the shows characters, because Lady Mariko committed sepuku rather than allowing herselt to be used by Ishido. When the armies enter battle, many of the war lords were conflicted and didn't want to fight and that led to their men being chaotic in battle. But Toranaga's army were actually united by Buntaro, spurred by his wife's death, he unified his generals to victory.

😅

It was a great episode with no action well the second the guy at the end but like Game of Thrones using clever words to weave a good story was even better after the slaughter of last week epidode.

I think the commentary on Blackthorne taking blame for colonialism is off. I think they were trying to show Blackthornes desperation to have the village spared. The Europeans never conquered Japan. Japan was never defeated till the US dropped weapons of Mass destruction on them to end WW2. So why would he feel sad for Europeans taking advantage of them?

@smmorris and Mr. Rocha, so the Europeans were the enemies, using other people to their benefit?? and the Japanese didn't do EXACTLY the same thing, even before the Portuguese (and later Americans) arrived in their shores? LOLOL -- what about the Japanese expedition (read invasion) of Korea? which is referenced when dying Taiko goes through his memories? LOLOL what did Toranaga (in this remake) use Hiromatsu and Mariko for? LOL

Steve you didn't ruin anything more than the show did by showing old blackthorne at the start of the episode. We knew he wouldn't commit seppuku because we saw him as an old man lol

@MrChaosi

2 ай бұрын

old man blackthorn was a dream, blackthorn stays in japan, they even confrimed it on the official podcast. watch the episode again with this in mind and it will make sense

Mr. Morris is all wet. Why does he assume that Blackthorne must remain the main character when decades later we know that this is just a form of white appropriation? This story is really about Japan, and the new version perfectly reflects this. There is no law that adaptation must be faithful to the original, especially if the original is racist.

Season 2? Really? Go watch "The Man in the High Castle" and see how a book adaptation in season 1 is totally ruined with additional seasons. Sanada will NEVER do such a nonsense and he already made that crystal clear.

This show was good not great. Parts of it felt repetitive and the finale was just ok. Not for one second did I buy the love story. But it was beautifully shot. I give it a 6/10. Not on the level of Last of Us or House of the Dragon but decent.

Why bring up Tokugawa when almost nothing here is what Tokugawa actually did?

原作はアップデートする必要があったのです。

Maybe Blackthorn grief made him just want to give up and be with Marako?