Not to question Parshall and Tully’s superb analysis. They’ve given us the best most forensically accurate view of not simply Midway, but of how the Kido Buttai operated. But dismissing Midway’s land based defenders as “Largely Ineffectual” misses an important detail. But it was something that would not become important until much later in the battle. The Japanese Strike group suffered somewhere around a 22-23% loss rate attacking Midway. Not simply planes and crews lost, but planes returned to their carriers too damaged to fly again that day. This is well within expectations so would not have made a huge difference, except for the way the Kido Buttai operated. Those 20%+ losses were almost entirely centered on the Nakajima B5N Kate Torpedo Bombers. Which had been doing level bombing against the island. They were shredded by the few Wildcats and by the massive amounts of AA Nimitz had sent to Midway. The way Kido Buttai worked was each attack wave was half the compliment of the 4 carriers. So for the wave 1 Midway attack Akagi and Kaga sent their Dive Bomber squadrons, and Hiryu and Soryu sent their Torpedo planes. With all sending Fighter escorts, and the roles reversing for the next wave. The 22% loss over Midway was concentrated almost entirely against Hiryu and Soryu’s Torpedo planes. (Midway really was a bad day for Torpedo Bomber crews all around). So those two carriers only had a tiny handful of working torpedo planes after the first wave. When Kaga, Akagi and Soryu were hit this left Hiryu still functional. But she no longer had her best weapon system. She had a bare handful of torpedo planes left. While those few remaining did press on to make an attack and hit Yorktown, Hiryu really didn’t have the strike capacity to take on all three US carriers very effectively. She had already lost her best most effective weapon system over Midway itself.

@AnthonyBrown12324

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting point ; it shows once again how vulnerable torpedo planes were too. Maybe a price worth paying if the torpedoes worked ; in the case of Midway Island they were carrying bombs but the aircraft were slow and ungainly never the less .

@thecappeningchannel515

Жыл бұрын

They are IJN fanboys.

@mauricedevine7350

Жыл бұрын

Gentlemen. This is an interesting point of view, and a different perspective for sure. However, this discussion really reminds me of the type of conversation that I overhear in a coffee shop as a group of liberals myopically and passionately discuss the merits of gun control.

@kentiffany8872

Жыл бұрын

War, chaos, unguessed chances, good luck, bad luck, making your luck. In the American civil war it was who struck first and who got the last swing. Amazing that it’s the same 80 years later with much advanced technology

@reidawg72

Жыл бұрын

@@mauricedevine7350 He made great additional points that helped me more fully comprehend what transpired. If that type of comment annoys you ... why are you here?

I met Mitsuo Fuchida in 1967, although he was a missionary christian at that point in his life, he was open to questions and answered honestly. I met him at the chief petty officers club on Guam. the viet nam war was escalating. he was concerned about the american political industrial involvement that Eisenhower had warned about. On the attack on Pearl, he said that national patriotism to the imperial sentiment was intoxicating. He was later to realize that the war was a disaster and the cost and loss of life was unbearable. He admitted to the Chiefs that he did lead the attack on Pearl . He voiced his regret of his involvement. He also said that at the battle of Midway he was not directly responsible for any loss of life, and was gravely injured himself. He also mentioned that Admiral Yamamoto and his staff were concerned about his health and asked for advice as he had witnessed the catastrophe. MY father had invited him to speak, there were also several US Navy and Army Intelligence Officers in attendance. They spoke with him for a while, and I noted that he seemed perturbed. My father rescued him. He Said that he preferred to preach the word of God. BUT THAT THEY WERE MORE CONCERNED WITH AMELIA EARHART . I never had the good fortune to meet him again. Matt Hinds

It’s my privilege to know Tony Tully and eat lunch with him regularly. I got to proof read several chapters of Sword and this manuscript was clearly going to be amazing. The finished product really exceeded my expectations still.

@nizguy

Жыл бұрын

This great book is now free on Audible.

I think shattered sword was one of the finest books about world war two in the pacific i've ever read

One of the best episodes on WW2TV. In 2006 SHATTERED SWORD 'ruined' my childhood memories from Incredible Victory and Miracle at Midway 😊 Most importantly, it turned mythical heroes into humans, young pilots making critical in-flight decisions with history-altering consequences. When I fly my Cessna over water, navigation takes up so much of my bandwidth, and this book (and discussion) reminds me of how stressful it must have been to have to deal also with the search for the enemy, the attack, enemy fire -- on BOTH sides. Terrific research, substantial myth-busting, and some really good illustrations in this episode. Thank you Paul, Jon, Anthony. Met all my expectations. Wish you all could sign my hardcover, maybe one day we will meet up and talk some more. History education and narration at it's best!!

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

is he'also saying that many more of the Japanese pilots actually survived this battle than had been previously reported?...

@andrewtaylor940

2 жыл бұрын

@@frankpienkosky5688 Yes. Actually most of the pilots and flying personnel survived. When the Carriers were hit, with the exception of Kaga, the pilots were quickly evacuated to destroyers. Japanese Naval training tended to be very job/ship specific. The pilots were all but useless for Damage Control, and were quickly gotten out of the way. Kaga was the exception as her senior officers had all been killed. And a Pilot was the most senior officer left aboard. Not that he knew it. What was lost at Midway was most of the experienced aircraft support crews. The mechanics, plane handlers, etc. The Pilots from Midway would almost all end up flying from land bases such as Rabaul in the Solomon’s. Where 98% of them would eventually die in the fight for Guadalcanal.

@bearowen5480

11 ай бұрын

ToneTriv, good incites all, but in reference to your point about aerial navigation demands, I would mention one additional point. Those pilots and gunners had the additional stress of finding their way back to their carriers after completing their harrowing attacks. They had to rely on dead reckoning for their outbound legs as well as their return flights to carriers that had been steaming at 30+ knots in random directions for several hours. A relatively minor navigational error would mean missing the fleet entirely and ditching at sea. Many did exactly that, either from fuel starvation on the "flight to nowhere", inadequate navigational training, or simply from bad luck. This point is largely lost to history because of unfamiliarity with the complexity of navigation by the historians who write about it.

I must add one more comment. This particular episode was structurally robust. There was a disciplined synopsis, and repeated references to the battle timeline. All the charts and tables had time stamps. The battle revolved around a single morning, so time flow is critical in analysing it. Jon and Anthony themselves wrote exquisitely about it in their book: "Like blood from a wounded patient, time-the lifeblood of decision and action-had been oozing out of Kidō Butai all morning, slowly and inexorably." This episode stood to benefit from the disciplined synopsis and time-based recounting of key events. History, after all, is all about timelines.

@frankpienkosky5688

Жыл бұрын

I'd like to know more about the aftermath...did the American carriers stick around or head back to Pearl?...except for the Yorktown, of course...a jap cruiser was sunk on day two...where did those attacking planes come from?....and what about all the downed pilots?....how extensive was the effort to recover them?...and how successful was it?

@Conn30Mtenor

11 ай бұрын

@@frankpienkosky5688 Enterprise and Hornet supported the Guadalcanal operations and tangled with the Japanese carriers again at The Battle of Santa Cruz. Hornet was sunk by a Japanese submarine and Enterprise severely damaged, requiring a lengthy repair and refit on the East Coast. The Japanese cruise sunk was the Mikuma which was caught in a pursuit by aircraft from Hornet.

Good to have you back Jon it’s not the same without the shirt and the wallpaper. Y’all are absolutely great!!! Wonderful show guys!!

An excellent show! I have heard Jon speak several times on Midway and the level of research that he and Tony did for thier book is amazing. I hope they consider producing a revised version of Shattered Sword to add all the new things they have learned since the original book came out.

I agree. The land based bomber attacks forced the Japanese fleet into evasion mode, limiting their offensive operations against Midway. This allowed the U.S. carriers to close and prepare a strike window. Certainly made a difference of at least an hour, when the battle hung on minutes.

Fantastically researched episode and a real eye opener , will definately be reading the book to get the full story .

Great presentation. Wonderful attention to detail and the arguments are supported by evidence. Thank you

Great show, excellent questions that provoked additional thought on how the aftermath Midway affected the war in the Pacific.

I am always left breathless by your shows and the guests you, so perfectly, choose. Whether for the background that gives depth to what I 'already knew', but more for the new angles that force me to rethink what I do know. Thank you for your presence in the historical mix.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you!

Outstanding show! I found this by accident. I'm a huge fan of WWII in the pacific and especially MIdway. I've read Craig Symmonds Midway book 3 times. Have to get Shattered Sword. I'll have to go back and look at your previous posts. Thank you!

Always playing catch up with these episodes because life is busy. This was really exceptional.

Keep them coming Paul . Another great episode and conversation !

Mistakes by both sides are the brightest common thread running through Pacific naval action in 1942, but cryptanalysis and code-breaking turned out to be worth plenty of aircraft carrier strike forces.

@your_royal_highness

2 жыл бұрын

And the goddamn cheapness of prewar funding for torpedo testing led to the incredible frustration of sub crews shooting off duds for the first year or more of the war. Just awful. Drives me nuts everything I read something about that issue.

@bearowen5480

11 ай бұрын

Because of criminal lack of effectiveness of American torpedoes, torpedo planes and US submarines played no decisive role at Midway. Nevertheless the US submarine campaign against Japanese merchant shipping was starving Japan of food and critical raw materials by 1945. An absolutely critical part in winning the war was played by Joe Rochefort's Station Hypo code breaking efforts. The fact that Nimitz met with him first thing every morning confirms that. Lockwood's submariners and Rochefort's code breakers did not receive the recognition they deserved, because their work was done clandestinely behind a wall of secrecy, simply out of sight, out of mind. Now their stories can be told and the recognition they deserve can be awarded appropriately. Bravo Zulu!

This was a superb podcast Paul, I read the book on your recommendation, Tony and Jonathans research is amazing.

Paul I've seen one or two of your episodes but I'll be watching a lot more. This show was excellent not only the two authors but your astute handling of your managing of questions. Full marks.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Thank you, and please share the word about WW2TV on social media

A great presentation from Jon, followed by a great Q&A from Tony, Jon & the sidebar crew.

Great discussion of the doctrine, tactics, mistakes and myth busting around the Battle of Midway. Highlighted how both sides were coming to grips with the relatively new concept of carrier warfare. When you read the book (in association with John Lundstrom's The First Team) you realise how much of the technology was new (ish) and still had teething problems.

Paul another impressive show I hope you are able to bring these two back again. Great job as usual. Glad I joined up today!

Thank you gentlemen! Such a trove of knowledge of the Pacific war. My dad and his brothers all served in the USN in combat. Thank God they all managed to come home in one piece. However 3 of them received the Purple Heart.

Don't get to watch a lot of these videos. Need to make more time to watch more of this channel. Awesome video! Thanks!

I watched Parshall on Drachinifel's channel before I saw this. Great add to have Tony there, although Jon talks a lot more :) Thanks for bringing this out for those os us who have had long-held belief in the history as it's been published for so many years and now have a new perspective. To me the most critical bit, and maybe they think so too, was seeing the number of airplanes NOT on the Japanese carriers when the B-17s flew over. Great stuff.

Superb interview and commentary! Thanks to the three of you for a remarkable program on the Battle of Midway. Andrew "Andy" McKane, Maunaloa, Hawaii.

Thank you so much for making this program available. I watched it and then bought the book for my Kindle. I am really enjoying reading history at such a depth. It is more like an exciting novel than an old dates and names history book. Cheers from Texas.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

You are so welcome!

Excellent work. I love these great discussions!

Amazing interview, while I used this book for my wargame Empire of the Sun, the discussion summarized the situation brilliantly. Fantastic. What Empire of the Sun does does per your comment is ties it all together.

My late father would have enjoyed this book that I am gonna buy soon, he was really passionate about the WW 2 and the Battle of Midway. Good job!

I first heard of this book from Dan Carlin while listening to his "Supernova In The East" episode 4 and I must say I liked the analogy he drew to the true pace of the battle which I assume he took from "Shattered Sword". He likened it to the Americans trying to strike a match and the Japanese trying to blow the match out; strike-strike-strike-strike-strike and finally it lights. As he points out, the Japanese found themselves under nearly constant attack from just after 7:00 AM local time until the pivotal attack at about 10:20 AM, and I can see now that as he says, this work by Jonathan and Anthony awakened him to the true tension and unfolding of the fight that day. I for one am comforted by the idea that the United States Navy didn't require some deus-ex-machina or blind luck to accomplish what they did at Midway. In my mind it comes down to good intelligence, a willingness to trust the commanders in particular Nimitz, and excellent flying on the part of the Navy pilots. That take on events, while a very positive one, may not have been the most effective message for morale at home at that particular moment but it is nonetheless true. American will and bravery in that instance ruled the day.

I’ve heard Parshall and Tully elsewhere, and this adds even more. You’ve gained a subscriber. Thanks!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard!

This video needs to be watched many times to fully grasp a full understanding of this video. I have watched this more than once, and I will definitely watch it again and again. Excellent job without a doubt.

@WW2TV

5 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

I read this book about 4 years ago. It was so well done that I immediately reread it.

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

Is he saying that B-26 that allegedly made a suicide dive on the Akagi actually survived?

What an incredible pair of guests! Wonderful insights, and I loved the accounts of unpicking what was really going on. It's very similar to the problem we have with the Axis-Soviet Front where one set of memoirs was written under Soviet censorship and the other by people trying to distort their role in the Nazi regime. It's only in recent years with historians really interrogating the primary data that a new picture is emerging.

It's interesting to me anyway, that the first book of military history that I read was one my mom had. It was Walter Lord's 'Day of Infamy. This would have been about 1966 or so, when I was about ten. Thank you veey much for posting this video. I've read just about everything that I could lay my hands on regarding WW2. I agree that 'Shattered Sword' is the best book about the Battle of Midway.

Thank you, WW2TV.

I've always been interested in the battle of Dutch harbor. I have been looking for a list of what ships were there. My grandfather was severely injured in the battle. He was serving on an oiler that was there at the time.

Just got hold of their book today, thanks for all your work guys, very interesting.

Just watched Jonathan on Drachinifel's youtube vid. Excellent!

My dad was at Coral Sea and Midway.

Just read the book, best book on WWII aviation I have read.

Another excellent episode!

Great Job Gentlemen! I have always loved stories surrounding this battle and I appreciate all your work. Gotta give a shout out to Dusty Kleiss and his book "Never Call Me A Hero"...it's a great account of his participation in the battle. Strong Work!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mark

Incredible level of detail! Love it!

What an excellent presentation !

Nice to actually see the co-author of a great book. The absent Jon has become a celebrity, so this is pleasing to hear. And Jon usually hogs the conversation anyway.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Jon rejoined a few minutes in

This is a wonderful presentation of a really good piece of revisionist history - Shattered Sword has been on the list to buy for a while and this has rocketed it up that list. Thank you!

@WW2TV

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

This wonderfully detailed description of events has certainly helped understanding the significance of the Battle of Midway and strategic situation in the South West Pacific at the time. I do note the historic focus on the Kokoda Battles and subsequent battles of the Northern Papua coast. This is of course is understandable though it does somewhat over look the strategic significance of the Battle of Milne Bay on the eastern tip of New Guinea. This Battle was the first time the Japanese were defeated in a land battle, thus haulting the possibility of a direct Japanese invasion of Port Moresby and Australia.

Tully and Parshall are Pitt Bulls when it comes to truth and history. Well done men.

It is nice to get a balanced view, which this presentation provides.

If you have found my channel because of this show, please subscribe to receive notifications and check out out other Naval shows kzread.info/head/PLDG3XyxGI5lB69ZxTyS-NjLpjtGQiDLS2

Excellent thank you

Exceptional program and learning experience.

Thanks. Very informative.

I never considered the thought that both USN and the I JN were just still cutting their teeth in Carrier Warfare operations . It was very interesting to see the IJN Carrier ops logs had actually survived ..that was mind blowing.! Then the B-17 photos of all four of the IJN Carriers with empty decks I always only saw just one in the books and videos.! This was a great examination of that battle .

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

mostly just zeroes landing, refueling and re-arming....

Brilliant analysis.......this is how its done folks.........made my day ta!

Great program Paul! I was on one of your Normandy tours with Battle Bus in 2003 which was awesome. This is the first time I have seen you online. Thanks!

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Well, welcome to the channel, you have another 750+ WW2TV videos to watch if you liked this one

The discovery and analysis of the Japanese air ops logs as well as the B-17 reconnaissance photos is an interesting development in the studies of Midway. It unquestionably gives the lie to Fuchida's account. As to why he would attempt to obfuscate what really happened I would say that the embarrassment of the Japanese veterans of the Pacific war over their defeat ran very deep. The loss of face to them was more profound than the loss of lives and materiel.

@Kitty-CatDaddy

8 ай бұрын

Playing devil’s advocate here. If I am not mistaken, was not Fuchida still recovering from an appendicitis operation and was painfully trying to get to the bridge just to at least wave his colleagues off. If he didn't make it in time, he could have asked a crewman what was happening and the crewman, attempting to make everything look 'peachy' for this officer told him what he wanted to hear. So Fuchida believes him and writes it down in his book. I could be wrong but it would explain his side while not being an outright 'Lie'.

@sirboomsalot4902

7 ай бұрын

@@Kitty-CatDaddy The problem is, Fuchida never claimed that they were about to launch the strike until well after the war, after he found out that the Americans thought they were. This could either be lying, or his memory was failing him in his later years

@Fulcrum205

4 ай бұрын

​@@Kitty-CatDaddyFuchida is notoriously full of sh!t. He contradicted his own testimony he gave to the US Army right after the war.

Great show, finally some truth out there on this war.

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

luck was clearly a factor...but the two sides were actually closer to equal as Midway itself functioned as a fourth carrier...the real difference was how much better the Japanese were at this sort of thing while we were still mired in a learning curve...

I commonly recommend both "Sword" and Symonds' book. Symonds devoted about half the book to the progress of the war leading up to Midway. It's kind of the view from 20,000 feet. "Sword" dives deep into detail, and there's a lot to learn that mattered in the battle. It's kind of a waves-level view, going from the wargame table to the last ships departing the scene.

I somehow just stumbled on this channel today. It is among the best!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard!

I'm currently reading this book. I'm only at the beginning but excited to dive into it.

Jon is a captain without his support staff, lol. Thanks for the great objective military history!

From Australia in reply to Jon's comment about Australian's prioritising Kokoda over anything else. Firstly - New Guinea was in 1942 an Australian territory. Equivalent to Puerto Rico today or Hawaii in 1941. The bombings of the Australian mainland in February 1941 made us see the approaching Japanese forces as an existential threat. Secondly, Kokoda attracts a mythology because of the proximity in time to the fall of Singapore (and the capture of most of the Australian 8th Division) and the sinking of HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales. I think the more nuanced and sophisticated Australian student of military history would consider the Battle of Milne Bay more significant than Kokoda. Thirdly. Australians can and do remember both Coral Sea and Midway as both crucial/critical battles, and that our freedom was dependent on the result of both of those battles. IMO those actions underpin the strong unwavering military alliance between the two nations and their shared commitment to freedom. Coral Sea Day is commemorated each year. See the Australian perspective published here this month: kzread.info/dash/bejne/dXeHt8ebfrTJoJc.html

@richardbennett1856

Жыл бұрын

Excellent points, mate. Australia being isolated was real, even if invasion of the mainland was improbable. The veteran units were in the middle east and Africa and performed heroically. But the A Team wasn't home, Prince of Wales and Repulse bombed and sunk, Singapore falls, Java, PI, Burma are invaded all in a two month span. Dark days.

Read Battle of Midway by Shiro Mori published 2012. Unfortunately no English language version available. The book contains a lot of information not covered in English literature on the battle. e.g. Admiral Nagumo issued a notice to his fleet that no enemy action was expected for the day in the early morning of June 4. Also, although not directly related to the battle, the Eternal Zero by Naoki Hyakuta will be interesting reading. It is a novel about an ace Japanese fighter pilot. Not only is the plot engrossing, but the details of WWII from the Japanese perspective were quite accurate to the best of my knowledge.

When talking about Scout Plane #4, (1:00 poinr of the video) other authors say they've taken the time to retrace what would have happened if it had taken off on time, and they conclude that in that event the flight plan for it would never have carried it over the course of Yorktown. At the time that Yorktown was spotted, the flight of #4 would have had it at another point far away. The conclusion of some authors is that Yorktown was spotted only because of the launch delay to #4.

@korbendallas5318

2 ай бұрын

Parshall and Tully say the same thing.

The authors seem to not be sure what struck or hit in front of Kaga's Bridge. According to the book, "Never Call Me A Hero", about Lt."Dusty" Kleiss, Enterprise SBD pilot. He states he scored and was credited with a hit on Kaga. He also stated he was armed not only with his heavy bomb but also with two 100 LB bombs and those struck in front of the Bridge.

Oh how I wish I found your channel earlier. I would have loved to be in this life chat. I remember watching Midway in grade school and then we watch Tora Tora Tora. My mom would not let us watch it in the house I didn't know why until she told me that she lost three uncles on the Arizona. I guess since then I've always been fascinated with the Pacific War. I have this book I also have it on audiobook what a great book of great information this book is so impressive on the scale of investigating and picking out things myth vs truth. As you see, I am in playback land. This is so wonderful to hear from the authors I absolutely loved this book and I've kept it my Kindle. If anybody else is wondering whether to pick this up or not I highly suggest that you do it is very well-researched. Thank you so much for this episode I really enjoy hearing from the authors of the book. Tell them thank you very much even though it's a year late for me Beaver very enthusiastic full of knowledge but they couldn't get out fast enough shows me that they really love what they do. I have two questions 1 being have you done an episode on the Asiatic Fleet? I find the fleet to be very interesting because they held everything together until the ship. It could be rebuilt and some of the ships repaired they had a tough time of it. And to have you ever heard of the Nazi Titanic there is such a thing and I read a book not too long ago about it I found it very interesting. When it came out I looked at the title and I went no way oh, well it's stuck out my mind so I ended up buying it and it was really well research it was an interesting project that didn't get too far but it was out there. Thank you again for another great presentation this one was super awesome because I love the Naval History of WWII❤ I even know some of the people that painted those pictures interesting

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Hi, we haven't done a show specifically about the Asiatic Fleet, but its come up briefly in discussions

1:12:00 That is a very good point, Paul but I can take that a tad further. The men of the USN were so MOTIVATED towards revenge against the Japanese. This comes into play for the rest of the war- the sting of Pearl Harbor lent every action of the USN an extra edge of motivation. One glaring example is the defense of Taffy 3 against the IJN Force A; a group of DD's and DE's taking on battleships and cruisers. I have to throw out the point that the IJN officers who lined up behind Fuchida had a less than noble motive- to make their force look better at the expense of Nagumo- who died on Saipan and never had a chance to clear his name.

This was awesome.

Great show! Have been looking at a lot of KZread programs on Midway and have seen Jon in various of them. Good to see Tony for the first time! Fantastic and clear presentation. As far as I know I have not seen one item regarding the code breaking events that were so important in Midway. I recall many years ago, first reading on the ULTRA secret, and it specifically mentioned that the British were VERY upset when it came out that "code breaking" was a big part of the Midway battle. The rationale then was that the Japanese Navy were using some of the 4 cypher German naval Enigma machines, so if the US had broken at least some of the messages using those machines, the Germans could be alerted that some of their messages were also compromised! The British, of course, had gone to great lengths at making sure that their intercepts were kept secret. To the point of not alerting the civilian population of a bombing target etc. Was there any truth to this? Were the Japanese using the Germans Enigma machines?

Awesome presentation.

Great show. Would love to see more on the sea battles of 1943, 44, and 45...

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

they attacked with nine carriers at Philippine Sea...we responded with fifteen!...times had certainly changed by then....

One question I would have for Parshall and Tully is whether they have definitive proof that Soryu was scuttled, given that the two survivors who were aboard the ship when she started her final plunge never reported explosions. I can see it for the other three carriers, but the lack of witnesses confirming this does raise questions.

@currentbatches6205

2 жыл бұрын

Suggest you read the book. There is likely no definitive proof, but Parshall and Tully do not leave a lot of room for doubt. I would ask if you have any reason to claim otherwise..

@nicholasconder4703

2 жыл бұрын

@@currentbatches6205 As I mentioned in my response, there were two survivors from the Soryu's engine room who indicate they made it to the main deck shortly before the ship sank. First, they mention that the water level was rising in the bilges where they took refuge for a while. Second, they don't mention one or more concussions and water spouts that would indicate a torpedo hit. Most accounts I have read of American ships being hit by Japanese torpedoes equate the effect to being like an object being shaken in the mouth of a bull terrier. People get thrown off their feet and have limbs broken by the impact. The tow survivors do mention a jolt, but that could be the result of a sudden change in the centre of mass as the stern started to go under and massive flooding started. Indeed, all they mention is that they made it on deck, they felt a jolt and the ship began to go down by the stern, and the two men jumped off into the ocean and watched the bow lift out of the water before the ship when under. It certainly does not sound like the effect of the impact of several Long Lances striking the carrier. Unfortunately, we are missing the log of Isokaze, and eyewitness accounts of torpedoes actually being launched and striking the ship. The accounts that we have are incomplete (from the two survivors) or are second-hand accounts (Kanao was informed by crewmates). Although this is good circumstantial evidence, we don't have proper first-hand accounting. Given the wrecked ship was taking on water and had suffered a hit that damaged a boiler room, it is possible that it did sink on its own rather than being scuttled. It would be good to get verification from the wreck itself, which should lie within about 10km or so of Kaga and Akagi.

@currentbatches6205

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholasconder4703 You are welcome to argue with whoever is willing to waste time; not me. Read the books and STFU.

@nicholasconder4703

2 жыл бұрын

@@currentbatches6205 In response I would say two things. First, there is no reason to be rude. I am entitled to an opinion, as are you. Second, Parshall and Tully wrote their book because they found discrepancies between images taken of the Japanese carriers during the morning and accounts written by Fuchida and others about the battle. Had they accepted your advice "Shattered Sword" would never have been written! Most sources up to the release of their book indicated that the Japanese were just about to launch their strikes when hit by the dive bombers. Parshall and Tully provide ample evidence in the form of the carrier flight deck operations records that this was not the case. All I am saying is that it would be nice to have corroborating evidence apart from some eyewitness accounts that have been shown to be somewhat dubious (i.e. holes caused by torpedoes in the Soryu's hull or the missing pages from the destroyer logs). It would also be nice if the group that found the wrecks of Kaga and Akagi would release detailed descriptions of what they found, and perhaps artist's depictions of the wrecks.

@currentbatches6205

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholasconder4703 You are welcome to argue with whoever is willing to waste time; not me.

I’ve watched most of these shows. Paul does a great job. I wish the us v them was toned down. I’m referring to the US v. Other Allie’s. Even on the BBC, I hear the same tone. What’s odd, American shows do not preface WW2 documentaries stating that the British leaves out the US contributions. The Allie’s fought together, needed each other or would t have won. Let’s honor the truth and leave out the subtle divisiveness.

I love this channel so much.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much. Remember, you can help by becoming a channel member or Patron

A tremendous book!

Liked this very much.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks

Hi Paul, I got here from "What's going on with shipping" - good job with Sal btw, and I've seen Jon and Tony's presentation before on Drach's channel but its certainly worth a second viewing

@WW2TV

11 ай бұрын

Welcome aboard, thanks for the nice comment

Very informative 👍

I remember "Bombs over Tokyo" as being the most uplifting thing to happen in the early part of the war. I remember one of my first memories dropping things while yelling "take that Tojo!"

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

the Hornet was actually abandoned at Santa Cruz...and later found still afloat by the Japanese who considered taking it as a war prize...before ultimately deciding to finish her off

These were battles on a massive scale, lacking the technology that we take for granted today, with relatively basic, fixed tactics. There was a big element of chance. The Japanese had had a lot of luck, momentum and a first-mover advantage if you like earlier in the Pacific, and they lost that forever at Midway, and the Battle of the Philippine Sea sealed the fate of the Japanese navy, their naval airpower, and therefore the war in that theatre.

I think Tameichi Hara's book has a good discussion of the dissension in the Japanese Navy (and Army) about whether to strike east or west, and how the strike on Midway was adopted.

I read their book (Shattered Sword) a few years after it was published and it was a real eyeopener.

@frankpienkosky5688

2 жыл бұрын

the "flight to nowhere" reflected badly on Fletcher...in that not only was it ineffective it actually involved something of a mutiny as...one by one... the pilots abandoned their leader and tried to get back to their carrier or make for Midway...many didn't make either...not the sort of thing the navy would want to make widely known...

I think that the A6M Zeke's usually-non-functional radios were a huge factor in the absence of their CAP for the arrival of VB6 and VB3.

@manilajohn0182

2 жыл бұрын

Although lack of quality radios was undeniable a factor, at least equal reason was the emphasis of Japanese fighter pilots on the attack. Harada Kaname alluded to this mindset himself when he said that prior to Midway, he always saw the role of the fighter pilot to be that of attack- but that the battle taught him the value of patrols.

@Rocketsong

2 жыл бұрын

The A6M2 Zero also only held 60 rounds for the 20mm. They were almost certainly Winchester on their main armament.

Fantastic discussion!!!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

this was a great book. Well done

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Jon is such a fantastic presenter.

@PalleRasmussen

2 жыл бұрын

He is also a very nice guy.

Brilliant

Giants of the field. This is education that is entertaining. What it is suppose to be..

Can someone speak to the quality of damage control on IJN carriers in 1942 ? I ask as a former DC Centeral LT aboard both the LPH-7 and the CV-62.

Guadalcanal campaign was where the Japanese lost the war. It is the campaign where we ground them down in a bloody battle of attrition that the Japanese could not win.

In regard on the torpedo planes drawing the zeros down. and unable to get to altitude. With the torpedo planes rear gunner the Zeros would want to do full throttle attacks to give the gunner the least time to react. The main problem would be ammo as the cannons are good for two bursts and the machine guns probably five. So the Zeros would be on the way to land when the dive bombers showed up.

Ceylon raid was easter sunday in April 1942-Japanese admiral Mikawa(victor of the battle of savo island) sank most of the shipping in the bay of Bengal with cruisers-both nugamo and ozawa were not thorough enough at ceylon

Thanks!

@WW2TV

7 ай бұрын

Thank you

Wonderful video, gentleman! Thank you for producing this! Doing some research on plane identification. I have what I need for how Japan identified planes (AI-201, AII-301, etc…red stripes CV Div 1, blue stripes CV Div 2, etc…) I am struggling with US. I think I know what squadrons were involved: (VT-8, VT-6, etc…) and what squadrons were on what CVs. The issues is I know they didn’t have tail identification, but I am seeing some planes with black lettering, some white. Some B1 (Dick Best for USS Enterprise) and USS Hornet B-# (B-11, etc) in black. Some had white S-9 (scouting plane 9), some had just black bombers (perhaps VMSB-241 off Midway?). Is there any record of how each US CV identified their squadrons of VT, VB, VS, VF? Would appreciate a point in any direction.

i think the movie MIDWAY done in the 70s was better than the one in 2019 just my oponion

@frankpienkosky5688

Жыл бұрын

.....except for that sappy romance angle....that detracts from the film.....

@MichaelFish-kd7sr

Жыл бұрын

​@frankpienkosky5688 half the audience is female, what you call sappy producers call nessaracy

one thing everyone seems to forget is that the val dive bombers had to be re-armed as well, because they were armed with armor-piercing bombs which are not ideal for attacking land targets. do they had to be armed with high explosive bombs. that meant all the japanese carriers were involved in the re-arming.

@sirboomsalot4902

7 ай бұрын

Shattered Sword makes the argument that the Vals wouldn’t have had to rearm at all.

Great job man!John is right midway sent electricity to the sausage grinder known as Guatalcanal.