The crossover between Freemasonry and the early development of the Church is intriguing.

I find this topic absolutely fascinating! I finally went to the temple lot in Independence a few weeks ago, and it just felt surreal.

Keep finding myself laughing over the fact that before the live stream started I was carefully crafting a question about Under the Banner of Heaven without spoilers ( which I don't care much about myself, but try not to do to others who might). I got interrupted and had to catch the lecture later, only to have John blow up the main mystery on the first few minutes. And the end was like an extra punchline, when he says he's only seen the first episode.

I got on the stream at the end earlier and wasn't able to get my question in on time. Do we know if the United Order/Law of Consecration has any connection to the Owenite Socialist influences on Sidney Rigdon and Isaac Morley from their Campbellite period?

At 14:36. There also used to be a penalty of disembowelment in the ceremony. That was also removed decades ago.

The lectures on history of Mormonism are always so enlightening! Thank you John

@centre-place

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for your kind comment!

I love this channel, I'm not religious but I'm fascinated by it, and these lectures are great - the speaker has a really pleasant voice, is organized and objective... It's great to listen in bed or while drawing.

I feel really fortunate to have found your channel. As an autistic minded person I'm so grateful (and admirable) for your unique skill of presenting information for learning that make really complicated and complex information easy to digest and understand. I loved this presentation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you 💚

I'm part of the LDS group, find this FASCINATING and it makes perfect sense why there'd be so many schisms based on disliked doctrines and leadership post Joseph Smith. If only the prophet had laid out succession a lot of confusion could have been avoided

@iDad7276

2 ай бұрын

He did. Brigham perverted it so it blew up

My great great great grandpa was the very first convert from England. He was a polygamist and worked for Brigham Young as his scribe. The history of this church is colorful to say the least.

As an aside, Ghost Dance Religion and the Sioux Outbreak of 1890 (a masterpiece of early formal anthropology) strongly connects Wovoka to the influence of Mormonism. This book took the controversial pov of explaining the Ghost Dance Religion as a legitimate phenomenon similar to the founding of events and even rituals of religions worldwide. The Centre Place lecture on Mound Builder mythology explains a much needed piece of historical mentality by the dominant White culture of the era, dangerously subdued and occulted.

My grandparents were founding members of the Church of Christ in Christian Union. With the naming convention, I've been thinking it might be a descendent of one of these schisms. It seems to flow back to a Methodist origin, but is also considered part of the Restoration movement. Is it in the lines of any of these "Mormon" traditions?

@Commiechu

2 жыл бұрын

I looked very briefly on Wikipedia and it looks like they were their own thing. Wiki article on the org they split from said it was founded by a Methodist pastor who started his own denomination after Abolitionist congregations objected to him being a Democrat, and that there were negotiations to merge with a Campbellite group but it never happened. It says Church of Christ in Christian Union split was founded by more traditional Methodists in the group. Unfortunately the citations on the article don't look like scholarly sources which would give you much more additional info.

@FireEverLiving

2 жыл бұрын

Many (maybe thousands) of very different churches call themselves something like "church of Christ", usually because they see themselves as being the continuation of the early singular, universal church described in the New Testament. The term "restorationist" comes from the effort to "restore" the worldwide church to this original, uncorrupted state. Mormonism is one example of restorationism, but there were others before and since, including Methodism (which came before Mormonism). From skimming the Wikipedia page, it looks like the Church of Christ you have in mind descends from Methodism. It's also common for individual churches calling themselves "Church of Christ" to have just independently come up with the same restoration idea and not be historically related to any earlier movement.

@paulrhome6164

2 жыл бұрын

I've read the Wikipedia as well. I think I left out part of my train of thought because I was writing so early in the morning. I was basically wondering if any of these traditions (or more likely, failed versions of them) had merged with methodism at some point. The Methodist movement itself was both growing and splintering at the time Mormon missionaries were so active in England. If many of these were Methodist converts, they may have returned to it when things went south (or west, in this case). An overview of the Restoration as a whole, and the differences in how the various branches defined and envisioned the primitive church could use John's treatment.

Thank you for this densely informative presentation. It's nice to hear church history from an objective source.

Great presentation Provides a brand new overall perspective on the Mormon church history and its progression / development

@owlnyc666

Жыл бұрын

I can understand why men would be in favor of polygamy but puzzled as to why women would support it.

Thanks for your time, John! I know you took a lot of time to prepare.

Hi John himer can u play ur music melody on acoustic grand piano not electronic will sound better n hollier please from Philippines republic

My Mormon friend asked me recently not to call her a Mormon even tho she has been fully entrenched for a long time and I have always referred to her as Mormon….what the heck?

One area that might be interesting to explore are the claims of seeing things through "spiritual eyes," and spiritual experiences. I understand that since controlled substances were not controlled in those days, how many of those "visions" arose from "acid-like trips," and maybe bad trips. Ha ha ha.

Going back to the previous talk about polygamy. Do we know why Emma Smith want to remain affiliated with the movement after her husband’s death? If it were me, I think I would want to get myself and my family as far away from him as I could especially after what sounds like the hell that Joseph put her though. Yet instead, she basically starts her own version of the movement. Did she leave behind any indication of her thinking?

@annwood6812

2 жыл бұрын

Clearly Joseph Smith's name carried a lot of momentum to it. Even moreso with his death. Momentum is a valuable asset to new start ups. Her new group claimed JS did not practice polygamy, and honestly once you get rid of that millstone around the neck, you've got a good thing going. JS was a brilliant country theologian at times.

@helencahn7293

4 ай бұрын

I will never understand why these break-away congregations still tie themselves to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young; they were both morally bereft. How could someone not consider their wanton promiscuity and misogyny to be anything short of bondage or slavery.

LoL as an aviation nerd this is freaking classic

I appreciate the lectures on Mormon history or history of the Christian church.

I have been told that there currently between eighth to one hundred branches that are the followers of the Prophet Joseph Smith and all use the Book of "Mormon" as primary scripture. The LDS Church in Utah can called the Catholic church and the....branches the Protestant church of the religion that Joseph Smith started. When the founder of a religion dies, schisms are common, if not inevitable. 🤔😎😉😇

I am not sure you can unequivocally lay that at Brigham Young's doorstep.Wait, " blood atonement " was never an doctrine of the church. The discourses of President Young publically speculated on expanding the idea of blood atonement to adultery. His speculation was based on the Levariate law , which pronounces the death penalty for adultery. However, Young never submitted this Leveriate law expansion of the death penalty to adultery to the other members of the First Presidency nor the Quorum of the Twelve to be canonized as doctrine. I hope you take the time and consideration to clear that up so as not to be too prejudicial. Nonetheless, I concede that these " blood atonement " discourses can have an untoward and exergerated effect on sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists and unstable individuals. I am glad you are covering the plural marriage branches because these groups are part of the Mormon restoration branch family. ( I am one who believes at some point the many branches of the restoration will one day reunify) Yes, I am a " Brighamite" but feel somewhat uncomfortable with the more liberal subtle drift of the church, but I remember prior to my mission , I had long discussions with the reorganized LDS church. At that time, there was very few points of differences , mainly succession, polygamy, and some sections of the D&C, but now with the Community of Christ there appears to be more points of differences in doctrine ,but, ironically less difference's in the feeling of the people and a greater feeling of kinship among all the Mormon restoration branches. Anyway, its always informative and interesting to hear your lectures on the Mormon restoration movement. I would like to hear some lectures on the Mormon Colonies in Mexico. Sorry to hear about the need to sale the Kirkland temple. Many of the Brighamites want to leave the Kirkland temple as the reorganized LDS church intended. That also seems to be the intend of the first presidency. ( I thought it would be nice to have some limited temple ordinances in Kirkland but that isn't going to happen per the current first presidency and the majority of membership) I am sorry that our reorganized cousins had to sale , but I am also happy that the church pension system will be saved. I know that is important. ( my ancestor Levi Stewart was asked to be on the council of the 50 in Navuoo and SLC) Christ is the King and the prophet would be a king in terms of Christ's prime minister. Anyway, President Nelson has been very respectful towards our reorganized cousins and spoke in terms of " stewardship" of the Kirkland temple. Remember , many of our ancestors also go back to Kirkland such as my ancestors , later moving to Nauvoo and than following the acting President of the Twelve to Utah. Please cover some of the " good " polygamist branches of the Mormon restoration movement. Appreciate your knowledge base and lectures.

@user-gm7xe8hu5t

3 ай бұрын

I think he said as a president brother Brigham Young spesk about that “ Blood atonement “ and mind weaks did this terrible thing .

Thank u

Are you a Mormon church?

Here in Brazil Maurício A. Berger created his new version of mormonism with his “ Sealed Book Of Mórmon . It is a worse book I read , there is no creativr things like the Joseph’s book of Mórmon , but Maurício A. Berger is using it to preach reincarbation and other things and the ideia he us the reincarbation of Joseph Smith jr himself .

Under the Banner Of Heaven, on earth.

Around 15;30 he says that the LDS doesn't want to be referred to as Mormons but also doesn't want 'Mormon' be referred to anyone else. He says this as a jab to the LDS church. This just isnt true at all. Mormonism is a religious movement, a culture, and arguably an ethnicity. that's it. I find John Hamer makes a lot of jabs at the LDS church. The LDS church doesn't need to apologize for 'blood atonement' as it never really practiced it. that said I don't disagree with the idea at all. If someone does something illegal sometimes capital punishment is necessary.

It's strange someone otherwise this apparently reasonable believes in this stuff

So the Community of Christ believes that the Book of Mormon is a 19th-century fantasy novel and that Joseph Smith was a con man who tried to get himself made King of the Earth, but you still go to church every Sunday and pay tithes and maintain all the LDS traditions... because it's fun?

@wingedlion17

4 ай бұрын

You would be surprised how many christian’s believe the gospels are also mostly legends and the only testament characters didn’t exist.

How funny that people who aren't members just can't get the church out of their minds.

John, in my view, you are completely wrong about the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. They were given to the apostle Peter by Jesus as per Matthew 16:19 and later to the Twelve (Matthew 18:19). In 1837, the Lord told the Twelve and the First Presidency that he was giving them the keys “in the last days and for the last time.” (D&C 112:30-31) Now please note that this is in “the which is the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, which power you hold.” This means the dispensation we're in, which goes from the days of Joseph Smith to the end of the Millennium. The Keys will _never_ need restoring again. Ever. Why? Because they are with the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints and are held by the first presidency of the LDS church and the Quorum of the Twelve. The Lord also told the world what the name of his church would be. “For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.” With all due respect to you, if you want to be a protestant, great, stay in the CofC. But if you revere Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, you really need to look elsewhere. The CofC has to get over its hated or distaste of the restored church. You can't keep living on the edge.

Anyone who takes the Book of Mormon seriously is someone I can not take seriously

You should address your habit of uptalking. And the insertion of "kinda" where it doesn't belong.

@leesnyder9144

2 жыл бұрын

What is uptalking? I had noticed he was a better lecturer than speaker but he goes with a stream of consciousness method. Its not tight or direct but follows controversy and discovery in a personal narrative form

@polemeros

2 жыл бұрын

@@leesnyder9144 Try googling it. Lotsa info.

@leesnyder9144

2 жыл бұрын

@@polemeros do you give self help advise on the internet often?

Run from this false religion. Your siul depends in it