France has been fascinated by rubber tired rail cars since the 1930s when they developed the Micheline rubber tired railcar. There are actually a few still running in Madagascar but they are having trouble keeping them in service. The problem - you guessed it - getting tires for them.

@KRYMauL

Жыл бұрын

Shouldn’t Michelin sell them tyres?

@KRYMauL

Жыл бұрын

@Zaydan Naufal Well, I mean every rich country pulled out their old rail lines because they think that freeways are better.

@KRYMauL

Жыл бұрын

@Zaydan Naufal By rich I meant, not incredibly poor. Albania is a developed country isn’t it?

@KaiHenningsen

Жыл бұрын

@@KRYMauL Germany? France? Austria? Just to name a few ... For example, the tracks given up in Germany weren't because of Autobahn, but because "oh, these don't make enough money" - in other words, failing to understand network effects. (And many of them are now slowly being returned to service because politics has finally started to prioritize more climate-friendly transport solutions.)

@KaiHenningsen

Жыл бұрын

@@KRYMauL From a quick Google: _Albania has a GNI per capita of $5,210. After the USSR's disintegration in the 1990s, Albania shifted from a socialist economy to a capitalist market economy. Although it is the fifth-poorest country in Europe, its economy is continually improving._

One issue you didn't mention is energy efficiency. Rubber-tired vehicles consume significantly more energy than steel wheels on rails, and as energy costs rise, you may see some of the rubber-tired systems being phased out. It also seems to me that some of the systems with both tires and steel wheels are more expensive to build and more expensive to maintain. Unless the tires provide a vital benefit (such as steep grades), I'd stick with the tried-and-true technology.

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

While I definitely think most of these tyre alternative modes are unnecessarily expensive, I generally think the energy efficiency point is greatly overblown. Energy costs should be going down as vehicles are electrifies (current European crisis not withstanding), and honestly the real advantage always comes from getting people out of a car.

@Bobrogers99

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 I agree that rubber-tired public transit is far more efficient than automobiles, but I've read that moving freight by rail is 3 or 4 times more fuel-efficient than by truck. I assume that there is a similar fuel savings when comparing rubber-tired trains to standard rail. While the fuel costs may not be a significant factor right now, it's only going to go up. We need to make our cities less car-centric and more walkable/cycleable, and provide more public transit (even if it has to have rubber tires!). We also need to modify zoning, so that homes, shops and workplaces can all be within walking distance of each other.

@feynaomi

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 rapid transit is mostly electrified anyway, and if carbon pricing works as planned, that electricity is probably going to get more expensive for a while, and energy is already a major operating cost from what I understand

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

@@Bobrogers99 Agree on all points, although I think a portion of the Frieght issue is the Giant train engines are far more efficient than the comparatively little truck engines, and average train speeds are actually quite slow compared to highway traffic trucks. Also, there is a good chance electrical costs will go down (relative to inflation of course).

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

@@feynaomi In the medium term the price will go up, but in the long term it will be decreasing as wind/solar farms pay off thier debt and produce effectively free energy, and perhaps with SMRs offering safe and flexible nuclear or Closed Loop Geothermal offering low cost power anywhere. Awfully huge chunks of the cost right now are building new transmission and rate subsidies for older versions of technology that is now cost competitive. Wind and Solar are both outbidding Coal plants, which is evidence of the net decrease in the cost of generating electricity.

I can't speak for other cities, but in the case of Lausanne (Switzerland) "Paris-style" rubber-tyred metro was a really great choice. The line literally replaced a urban rack railway in its lower part, and is (correct me if I'm wrong) the steepest rubber-tyred line in the world. It has been a huge success since its opening in 2008, constantly outpacing usage predicitions. The construction of a new line has been approved and will use the same rubber-tyred technology (again, because of the slope of the city).

@damiensonney9880

Жыл бұрын

Lausanne’s M2 metro could totally have used standard steel wheel trams. At the cost of lower accelerations. But the line, as is, is undeniably a success.

@Joshua-fi4ji

Жыл бұрын

CDMX in Mexico has a mix of tyre and rail systems in its metro. It got me reading into it and the only real benefit I can see, is rubber can handle steeper inclines more effectively. There are other minor advantages, but I don't think they justify the use of rubber tyres. Being from the UK, I don't think London has any rubber wheels on the line and London is one of the best run metro systems in the world. Although I acknowledge London's underground is expensive, was built without any central planning and sometimes has poorly designed platforms. Edit: and London is mostly pretty flat.

@lzh4950

Жыл бұрын

@@Joshua-fi4ji Was reading that Mexico City is slowly sinking/settling over time, so its metro/subway tracks' profiles will change slightly over time also, & using rubber traction is less likely to lead to derailments as a result compared to steel traction (probably because rubber is a more flexible material)

@Joshua-fi4ji

Жыл бұрын

@@lzh4950 makes a lot of sense actually. I knew that about CDMX, but never put 1 and 1 together.

@antoinegontier482

Жыл бұрын

My dad actually worked on the prolongation of one of the lausanne metro lines. the slope is indeed incredible !

Rubber tyred metros are a mild health hazard by virtue of the amount of the PM 2.5 they spew out. Also the underground rubber tyred Paris metro line stations smell horrendous because of the tyres.

@dustojnikhummer

Жыл бұрын

Don't rubber tires also require much more maintenance?

@BraxtonMeyer

Жыл бұрын

that's not how anyh of that is spelled.

@MuddyRavine

Жыл бұрын

​@@BraxtonMeyer If you are talking about tire vs tyre, it depends on where in the world you're coming from. On a world wide scale either is acceptable.

@Twittler1

Жыл бұрын

A lot of that is because the wheel sets on the bogies don’t steer, at least on older versions. Both axles are rigid, as on a steel rail system, so on curves the ‘road tyres’ scrub around curves, much as the rear tyres on a non-steering twin rear axle truck do. Must make them wear and release their toxins much faster.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

This is interesting because PM2.5 pollution is actually much better in the Montreal Metro when compared to the Toronto subway, even though Montreals system is entirely underground and quite air sealed!

A couple of minor additional points: Standard trams aren't too bad at hill climbing. Sheffield (UK), Prague (CZ), and especially Lisbon (PT) systems all have steeply-graded sections that regular trams cope fine with. Obviously if you have a really steep hill you might need rubber tyres, but only really at the extreme end of the scale. Secondly, one of my least favourite aspects of rubber-tyred metros is the smell of burnt rubber, and the tiny particles of rubber dust which passengers can't help but breathe in. I'd much rather endure flange-squeal than the smell of burnt rubber.

@Twittler1

Жыл бұрын

Those old four wheeled Oporto and Lisbon trams are amazing - how they get up those really curvy inclines is fabulous, not to mention coming down again! Line 28 in Lisbon! It’s been a few years, but I did notice that the old Lisbon and Oporto trams had had their running gear updated. This was after most of the older suburban trains on the London Underground Metropolitan Line dating from the 50s and 60s had been withdrawn. The new four wheel sets and sub-chassis for the Portuguese trams were each one power bogie/truck from the withdrawn London Underground trains, reconditioned. Nice bit of recycling!

@highspeedrailenjoyer1045

Жыл бұрын

Lausanne, a very hilly city in Switzerland, replaced their dense tram network with buses and trollybuses.

@mattsmocs3281

Жыл бұрын

In my home area, there was a trolley line with near 20 percent grades in locations. The 4 motor cars had no issue no matter the weather getting up and down the line.

@michaelmiller641

Жыл бұрын

And dog kennel hill in london

@t0biascze644

Жыл бұрын

where in prague is there steep tram line?

Hi Reece, this video is much better than the one it replaced! My limited experiece with rubber tired trains, Montreal, is that the ride is equally comfortable and loud to steel-wheeled metros. Incidentally, I have only heard the screeching on the Toronto subway in the sharp curves into and out of Union. Thirty years ago, the screeching used to happen many more places in the system, so it is much improved.

@Freshbott2

Жыл бұрын

What caused this? My only guess is that old trains typically used through-axels and that new ones don’t but one never seen anything to support it.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

So great to hear that! It’s my goal!

@andrewclarkson3401

Жыл бұрын

@@Freshbott2 I am not sure exactly what changed. I think I remember hearing that the wheel profile was slightly different on newer train models, but I am not an expert on train design. (Maybe someone who is could comment.) I am just thankful that my trips between Old Mill and Jane are not interrupted by soul-piercing screams from the wheels as they were when I was a teenager.

@KaiHenningsen

Жыл бұрын

@@andrewclarkson3401 I have no idea about metro/tram systems (even less specific ones), but I do know that at least DB actually uses automatic lubrication (at the rail) on sharp curves, to reduce the noise as well as the abrasion.

@tonys2957

Жыл бұрын

@@Freshbott2 Couple of big influencers: 1) welded continuous rail is infinitely easier on trucks/bogies 2) developments in flange lubrication have come a long way

I work in a light rail control room in Canada and you've got a lot more knowledge than a lot of the people I've worked with. You could make good money as a project consultant, especially with all the new projects opening in Toronto

@zacharyabelson8196

9 ай бұрын

If you google him you'll find he is a consultant and this is just a side thing

I think that some gadgetbahn systems and respective technology (translohr, rubber-tired metro) may have a usage where classical systems fail or have major issues. Probably one of these cases are cities with a difficult topography where "steel" trains would need long tunnels and shallow gradients to change height, while rubber tires can use much more steep inclines, but without the need to build a funicular style system.

@gondolagripes1674

Жыл бұрын

This is what the Morgantown PRT does to allow very tight turns and steep grade climbs.

@craighiggs3029

Жыл бұрын

@@thomaserickson5737 I belive because few cites are built on steep slopes. They are widely used in Switzerland for commuter rail though.

@bahnspotterEU

Жыл бұрын

@@thomaserickson5737 Rack railways are incredibly slow, I think rarely faster than 30 kph, which is far too low for any metro-style service.

@jorgeandresortigozaulloa6088

Жыл бұрын

You're right. One successful case is Medellín's tramway, only the rubber tires could climb that steep roads.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

Yep that’s my thinking, tunnelling is not cheap!

For the Medellin-Tram: A regular tram would have been possible. But, coincidentally, the system was built with a loan given from the French government. That was after representatives of French companies visited the country. You know, things just happen sometimes. :)

@sonicboy678

Жыл бұрын

That tracks, unlike Translohr...

@alfrredd

Жыл бұрын

Stop giving transit projects to the french.

@AlbertoGomez-oi5ou

Жыл бұрын

Same thing in Cuenca tram tho

@walideg5304

Жыл бұрын

@@alfrredd THey have the best engineers of the world, best transit technologies (Alstom high speed, or Citadis, VAL technology bought by Siemens), solid consulting companies for the studying like Systra and excellent construction engineering companies like Vinci, Bouygues, Eiffage, all of them have build Trams, Metro, HSL.

@kekessalman

9 ай бұрын

I watched the Medellin Tram videos. That route with those slopes and curves, mixing with traffic and sudden stops etc. could NOT be possible with steel wheel regular trams. They would have to make bridges, tunnels and knock down a lot of building for a regular tram.

Speaks about Taipei Wenhu Line with that rubber tyre, I still recall former mayor of Taipei Chen Shui-bian quote: 馬特拉不拉 我們自己拉 (If Matra don't want to push our train, we will push the train by ourself) After the construction of Wenhu Line, the rolling stock provider MATRA suddenly terminate their contract to maintain them, surprised the Metro Taipei and government because they need to assembly their own crack team fast with homegrown component. Luckily Taiwan's industry prowess allow them to still let it run until today.

I think I have to mention that iron rail is "quite heavy". In my country, Japan, AGT (Automated Guideway Transitmit) ≈ Mitsubishi Crystal Mover is often used in bay area where the ground is not firm enough.

@Sacto1654

Жыл бұрын

At least in Japan, automated guideways are at least well-implemented (at least in the Tokyo area). But some of these "gadgetbahn" systems are mechanical nightmares not worth building in the long run.

@deptusmechanikus7362

Жыл бұрын

Why not simply use a trolleybus then?

@thecooletompie

Жыл бұрын

@@deptusmechanikus7362 Crystal mover technology can operate without a driver, the yurikamome line in Tokyo is driverless and has platform screen doors.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

I’m skeptical that this is a good reason these days, lots of traditional rail is used in such areas even in Japan!

@trainsandmore2319

Жыл бұрын

Not just Tokyo, but you also have Kobe Portliner as well.

My favourite transit choice anywhere is the rubber-tyred NS-93 on line 1 in Santiago. Huge windows, spacious, wonderful sound, and amazing acceleration and deceleration. Combined with the extremely short stops, excellent headways.

@thepedrothethethe6151

Жыл бұрын

The only problem I have with those is seat distribution. I don't want to talk to strangers on my way to university!!

@Federico_Cahis

Жыл бұрын

@@thepedrothethethe6151 Good point. I just never sit so hadn't thought of that.

@unlapras9365

Жыл бұрын

NS-93 is based on Paris's MP89. TL 8/8 from Lausanne also looks very similar !

The difference in cornering for rubber/steel tires though is significant and it's not just noise. Rubber can take very tight corners and faster. The core issue with steel wheels is they don't have a differential and have to rely on banking which requires very precise tolerances to work well. With any vehicle going over any road/track there will be wear. The question is do you want the track wearing out or the wheels? I would argue it's better to have the wheels wear out. Steel wheels will actually erode not only the rails, but the sleepers and fish plates. This creates a safety hazard or forces trains to travel artificially slow because the rails are in bad condition. If you hear noise on the track then that is either the rails or wheels being stressed or being degraded. racks that support rubber tires usually don't wear out and don't require expensive/time-consuming repairs. The real problem however with rubber tires though is track switching...it is difficult, time-consuming, and expensive to have a switching system for rubber tires, while steel wheels can switch tracks very easily.

@Twittler1

Жыл бұрын

On the older Parisian lines, the rubber tyred wheels are non-steering AND on solid axles. So they scrub around curves, AND rotate at the same speed as each other. Wear and toxin release must be horrendous.

@AaronSmith-sx4ez

Жыл бұрын

@@Twittler1 I agree that is bad. Honestly all metros should have differentials...they are quieter and reduce wear on tracks/wheels. Monorails actually have a decent solution in that they have one set of wheels for up/down and one set for laterally holding the vehicle to the track.

@billyswong

Жыл бұрын

But differential doesn't seem rubber tyre exclusive. I don't see any inherent issue that prevent it from being put on a steel wheel tram.

@Twittler1

Жыл бұрын

@@billyswong Added expense and weight for no real benefit. And another potential failure point; thick, heavy solid steel axles rarely break down. Split them to put a differential in - you’ve now designed in a weak point. The natural differential action of cone shaped wheel profiles is sufficient for all but the tightest curves. Some older trams/streetcars in North America (the PMT(?) types) did have Pullman bogies/trucks, the powered ones of which did have differentials. I rode them in Boston in the 60s, but whether they helped is another matter. Wheel squeal on tighter bends was as loud as ever. Modern low floor trams get round this by not having axles at all - each wheel is independent of all the others and independently suspended too. But they still squeal. It’s the nature of the beast (flanged steel wheels, steel rails).

@LeGrandJuju49

Жыл бұрын

@@Twittler1 rubber tired Paris metro trains have differentials since the beginning, in 1951... And I'm sure of that because I've got the plans and have seen them... As to why steel trains don't have differentials is due to the conical shape of the wheels doing this job. The exact profile of the rolling table determines the dynamic behaviour and is a great point where innovative shapes reduce screeching and wheel hunting. They are great at that in Asia iirc

I do think there’s benefits to having some non-standard transit technology around. Sometimes a later development only made possible by the fact people are still holding on to an odd system helps them become far more competitive. For instance, there were very valid reasons behind cities choosing buses over trams in the mid 20th century but they’re coming back because some cities held on to a seemingly inferior technology and figured out how to make them better. (Also, I will take the roar of rubber over the squeal of metal on metal *any* day.)

@fernbedek6302

Жыл бұрын

Some systems are nonsense that should never be built though. Just to be clear.

Ok but the noise a pretty obvious win. I take the Montreal metro every day and I've experienced conventional rail metro in New York a bunch of times and the small roaring is much nicer than the metal friction noise imo.. It feels so much quieter.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

Yeah but New York is a very old and not always wonderfully maintained system!

@dez7800

Жыл бұрын

@@RMTransit Sure is an old metro.. Thanks, nice to know!

I'm using the Translohr T6 line south of Paris every day and I'm very happy with it. In addition it has a steep sections which it manages really comfortably, not bumpy and not at all noisy. Also it looks very good and is clean. I think it helped the neighborhoods around the line to significantly increase in value. I would say it is a great success.

@sachatrin2981

11 ай бұрын

I'm happy too. Frequency is great. Just hope it won't diseappear and turn into a bus when the technology gets to end of life.

You talk about the tram in Clermont Ferrand and for that thank you. One big thing I like about rubber tired trains, especially in Paris is that they are much more quiet than standard systems (this is one of the reason why the line 2 & 6 have been equipped with it) Also it helps with large hill. As a user of the Paris metro everyday to go to work I prefer taking the line 14 over the line 7 (which is as loud as it can possibily be, the MF77 is an absolute horror) even if it means having 5 to 10 minutes of travel in addition. If you ever go to Paris you might be interested in "Les journees du patrimoines" where the RATP allow us, with someone from the RATP, to go on the track of some unused station like Haxo where you will be able both rubber and non rubber track. This was the place where they first tried rubber tired track. On another hand one thing I like about how it was implemented in Paris is that the track are compatible with normal trains meaning that if they ever want to swap the train they can! On some occasion you will even find some metro from line 4 on non rubber tired track in order to go to maintenance.

@potdefrite7632

Жыл бұрын

la 2 c'est du materiel fer (MF01) il me semble

@DrumSlayer

Жыл бұрын

@@potdefrite7632 yep, line 2 are not rubber. Paris metro with rubber systems are 1, 4, 6, 11 & 14

The Nancy TVR will soon be replaced by 24m long trolleybusses, with "In Motion Charging" onboard batteries by HESS. Paris choice to build so many different and non-interoperable LTRs is just incredible ! (TVR, 2,45m/2,65 wide trams, 750VDC/1500VDC Overhead lines...)

There is a similar system to these where I go to university. It's called the Morgantown PRT. They are self driving buses that run on a grade separated guide-way. Each car carries 15 passengers (if you overload them they scream at you). The system was built in the 70s and it has garnered a reputation for unreliability in recent years. It actually broke down a few hours ago; right as I was about to get on. It's an interesting system, and is the largest of its kind. It may be worth looking in to for a video sometime.

I would love if you could discuss New Jersey Transit Rail Operations, its a fairly large system that should be covered, if you make one I think it will help more people understand our unique system.

@Christian762

Жыл бұрын

seconded

@shaunmckenzie5509

Жыл бұрын

Is that the one with diesel powered trams? My goodness

@EasternSeaboardProductions

Жыл бұрын

@@shaunmckenzie5509 No I am talking heavy rail

Nice video! I like how you explain some technical aspects of the technology and why it was chosen, and still make your videos easily consumable by most people! Rubber tires usually cause a more bumpy, slower ride than steel wheels. I’m still hoping that urban maglev systems with speeds between 100-160kph get built, like the Linimo in Nagoya Japan and various Chinese urban maglevs. One major benefit to grade separated rail systems is that it can’t hit cars, bikes, pedestrians, etc.

I think there is a big gap between those technologies, the translohr is a pain to use, it's shaky, often delayed, has frequent issues and so on. On the other hand, the VAL is such a pleasure on the daily, it sails smooth (unlike the neoval which apparently is quite shaky), is quite silent, and has 1 min headways. And as a user waiting 1 min instead of 8/9min can shorten your trip by a LOT.

Brisbane’s new “metro” is literally a long bus with rubber wheels and that makes me mad

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

It’s just a pretty standard bus! So it’s fine!

@Justin-xk7yj

Жыл бұрын

It boggles my mind why they don't follow Sydney's example and build a full automated metro system instead.

@nelsondawson9706

Жыл бұрын

it's Just a really long articulated bus to me and they were designed for use on the pre-built busways

@sanuthweerasinghe7825

Жыл бұрын

it doesn’t have a lot of the disadvantages that RMTransit mentioned here because it’s literally just a fancy bus. There’s no guideways or rails or overhead lines, just wheels on tarmac.

@frehesh.4386

Жыл бұрын

@@Justin-xk7yj it'll be so hot

As a native of Boston who has lived in NYC since the 1980s (ie, lifelong familiarity with steel on steel subway and trackless trollies), I am an unabashed fan of the two rubber tire subway systems I’ve used extensively (Paris and Montreal). They provide a much more quiet (or at least pleasing to the ear) riding and waiting experience and in my opinion a much more comfortable ride whether seated or standing. Furthermore, I believe you stated it exactly opposite (in my subjective opinion) when you stated you don’t significantly prefer the ride in Toronto’s conventional system to Montreal’s rubber tire system, though YMMV and obviously does.

The 20seconds after 6:45 constitute one of the better moments of comedic timing I've seen on this channel. It's worthy of the "programmers are also human" series or a Michael Palin production. Which is, needless to say, an enormous compliment

The trains on Montreal Metro are LOUD when they depart from a station! Some say it’s the traction motor(I can’t find the source), but I really enjoyed it when I visited Montreal a few months back. Also I believe Montreal Metro has the highest capacity rubber tire metro trains out there. It’s a system that adds personality to the city, I do wish it was more expansive!

@xreel1591

Жыл бұрын

If you are talking about the sort of melody the older trains makes when they depart then yes it comes from the motors. They also decided to use that sound for the door closing chimes.

@mrvwbug4423

6 ай бұрын

Loud traction motor startups is endemic to AC traction motors made before about the last decade, most common to trains from the 1990s-2009 or so. Prior to IGBT technology the gating transistors that AC traction motors needed to modulate their power were quite noisy. This sound is most notable on the 1993 stock London underground trains (the infamous sound of the Jubilee Line), the high pitched REEEEEEEEEEEEEE that LIRR M7 trains make at 6mph and the musical scale startup sound of the "singing" Siemens Taurus locomotives (most commonly used by OBB in Austria, go figure). The musical scale gating transistors of the Siemens Taurus was a deliberate easter egg on that locomotive.

Didn't expect to hear about my home town ! CAEN That's the one who replace the whole tram after only a decade !

What timing. Just the other day I was in the Montreal Metro and wondering if people would consider it a gadgetbahn.

@WILD4X4D

Жыл бұрын

I just consider it more meddling from a bunch of France wannabes. Mayor Jean Drapeau, should have had his butt kicked for it. (Also lived in this province my whole life)

The Yurikamome in Tokyo actually really benefits from the rubber tire rail configuration as it allows a smaller footprint across the small islands of Odaiba, Aomi and Ariake district. It also lets the smaller trains move faster and stop quicker, which makes the trip through the rather winding tracks a lot better.

Interesting video and interesting first comment below this one. I always enjoy your good transit videos. I never fail to learn something. I find lots of worthwhile comments by your viewers also which adds to the enjoyment and learning experience.

I first experienced rubber tired Metro in Montreal when visiting Expo 67 World's Fair. As I recall, the advantage provided, was the slope downward leaving a station that helped accelerate the trains and the next upslope which saved on brakes. This also let the stations not be so deep as steel wheeled subways tend to be. Paris did not have that feature on the ones I rode there.

@InTeCredo

Жыл бұрын

Nuremberg subway system was built in a way that the tunnels between two stations dip down a several metres in the middle. This helps with using less energy for acceleration and deceleration.

@lzh4950

Жыл бұрын

Singapore has such a design also though it also means that if you want to lengthen the platforms, the ends will no longer be level, which would complicate accessibility

I remember when Vancouver was considering GLT as a potential technology for the Evergreen Line extension. THANKFULLY cooler heads prevailed and they stuck with the SkyTrain technology that was already being used.

I was actually surprised you didn't talk Autonomous Rail Rapid Transit (sometimes called "trackles tram" such as in an article by The Conversation - and that one is kind of a joke, really) which takes the Translor idea but with less infrastructure i.e. the "rails" is just paint on the street and the vehicles are battery only, no overhead wires.

@chongjunxiang3002

Жыл бұрын

I think ART is still too new to be relevant atm, no cities actually use them yet except experiment units.

@KRYMauL

Жыл бұрын

Isn’t that just a trolley bus?

@MarioFanGamer659

Жыл бұрын

@@KRYMauL While that's a common alternative name to trolleybuses (though I put them to the same category as normal buses in the same way how I call diesel trains diesel trains and not tracked buses), the vehicles of ARRT are battery buses and aren't connected by overhead wires.

@Freshbott2

Жыл бұрын

That’s actually fantastic. Without using a steel guide and pantograph it can avoid the infrastructure cost and it can be varied very slightly to avoid wear. It can go up hill and have better braking. But it can all offer better amenity and higher capacity than BRT. “Paint on the street” isn’t an insult, it’s exactly how we designate bus lanes and stop cars from parking in public space for basically nothing. It’s treated as a joke cause “real trams” already exist but the idea actually achieves things trams don’t. Appealing to the status quo didn’t get horses very far when cars came around. I think these will be very common one day. While people discuss whether they can be a thing car companies are making electric vehicles and mining companies run guided trucks. They didn’t umm and ahh about it asking for permission.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

They are really just another new bus design that has lots of issues that make me skeptical

Lyon is NOT using a VAL, it is using a full size metro, even wider than Paris metro actually. Both of them using standard UIC gauge.

I recently moved to Adelaide from Melbourne Australia, in Adelaide they have something called the O-Bahn, it’s a bus most of the time but they have specific tracks at specific locations to reduce travel time and traffic congestions. I think that is pretty cool

@verygoodbrother

Жыл бұрын

i believe this channel has covered that system

I’ve long been wanting to hear an explanation like this. Thanks!

Thanks for sharing this video and information

In Lyon, France, 3 of the 4 metro lines are rubber-tired lines. The 4th is “steel-tired” because is the oldest and the steepest (the oldest section open in 1891 as a funicular line) and the extensions in 1974. This line is among the steepest in the world with a 17,6% steep in the 1891 tunnel. Here the slope isn’t taken with rubber but with a rack rail as third rail. The train is powered by over wires. It’s so specific than Alstom had to design a specific train with this all tech only for Lyon metro system. The three other lines are very similar to Montreal metro

Judging on the title and thumbnail I first thought that you are making a case against trolleybuses. But luckily I was wrong.

Oui oui, Nancy. Been there on interrail, didn’t know this contraption existed, rode it (single fare was €1,30) and loved it

Great analysis!

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Mark!

The Metro from Paris is so awesome 😍Better the the U-Bahn of Berlin! Brussel has a amazing system of Bus.Was called ,,Ringtram Bus ''❗

13:05 "And so the idea that if it snows a bit your metro might not work" -- As a resident of Vancouver, I'm entirely too familiar with that.

Good video and I cannot help but add something. I don't think Translohr is better than a tram (and not just because the hybrid electric-pneumatic door system is unpleasant to test after we assemble it in our factory). However to be completely fair to it there are two advantages of it that I have not seen mentioned and as you said in some niche cases they can contribute to this system winning. 1. the noise - despite the guide rail the one I have seen in person in Paris was singificantly quieter in the street than a tram. Modern trams make the difference smaller and smaller with clever wheel designs but the only time I have seen a translohr running the lack of expected noise was the first thing I noticed and after I wondered why that is I finally saw that it is a Translohr and not a tram. So I guess in some cases this could be a factor when deciding what to build. 2. narrow spaces and two-wheelers - one thing I absolutely hate about trams is that whenever there is the need for the tram to go to the side of the road in a tram stop or the tram stop is extended towards the rails and there is no cycle path behind the tram stop away from the rails all cyclists passing throuh face a choice of two bad options - ride the narrow space between the high tram stop curb and the rail (and pray no stupid driver will start overtaking you in the remaining space where they fit with whole 5cm to spare) or you can cross the nearer rail at a horribly sharp angle, ride in between the rails through the tram stop and then cross back to the side again. If the rails are a bit wet and/or you are not capable of jumping with your bike you will crash and possibly get run over by anything following behind you. I have seen motorbikes crash in these tram stops too. Translohr will have something like 1.2m between the curb and the guide rail negating the need to go over the rail. So if I had to mix something like a tram line with a lot of trafic on two wheels in narrow streets Translohr would get one plus point in the contest for this. So if the line is in a sunny dry city, passes through a flat center where tons of people cycle rather than walk and runs into steep hills on both ends where rich and powerful people living there demand it to be quiet Translohr just migh fit. It will be no cheaper to operate like you said but it could fit the need of such a transit line - climb hills, less noise and fewer raild in the road.

Rubber tired trams have a counterpart: a traditional bus running on concrete guide tracks for part of its route. I'm thinking of the O-Bahn guided busway in Adelaide, South Australia. Those are normal buses that run on normal roads for a lot of their route, but then run on concrete tracks to cover larger distances with negligible demand for stops along the way. I've seen them with double bendy bus configuration so they aren't quite as long as your average tram, but then a tram doesn't have to take very tight corners.

Love your content! Please make a video on Warsaw trams and constantly changing metro plans. Thank you in advance!

Those rubber tire metro systems in Paris,the most notable thing is that all the stations smell like rubber there :)

I rode the Montreal Metro recently, and I really enjoyed it. I felt the ride quality was very smooth, smoother than other metros I’ve been on (tho I’ll admit I’m from the U.S., where track quality is quite poor), and had no issues with the noise. It’s quite a cool and easy to use system, and I really think it’s one of my favorite Metros. I do agree however that steel wheels could probably do the job just as well, but I had no problem with the tires.

@texasabbott

Жыл бұрын

Montreal has a deeply optimized system when it comes to speed, efficiency and capacity. Transmission of vibration to neighboring buildings is something that Montreal wanted to avoid. Montreal's Metro takes full advantage of rubber tire configuration to build high-performance trains that can accelerate quickly, negotiate tight curves and climb slopes of 6.5%, almost always at 45 mph. Steel wheeled trains would cripple performance as they are generally limited to 4% slopes and speed restrictions through tight curves.

Hey, you talked about my city! I live in Caen, Normandy, the city that replaced tyred trams with traditional ones (at 7:21). I witnessed the old trams (which were small and crowded, such that on chilly mornings, a lot of condensation formed on the windows), the transition period (lots and lots of road works, and sometimes the old trams hat to use their motor engines on sone sections, since the power lines had been removed) and the advent of the new tram!

Love the Crocodile model in the background❤

I have used the BRT in Jinan, Shandong, China, and for that size of city (3,25 million inner city, 5.6 million metro area, making it a smaller city by Chinese standards), it is ideal. Station stops are very efficient due to fare collection at the entrance to the platform. Miss a bus and the next one is following in 2-3 minutes. The only unanticipated delays are red traffic signals, and that's necessary for safety of others, especially bike and moped riders. More expensive options are not needed.

The lengths these people go to to not build a steel wheeled train or a tram is astonishing.

Nice Crocodile/Krokodil model behind you. Another way to provide a smooth ride was the PCC cars used in New York and other U.S cities in the 1950s. They had air suspension and air conditioning and were the most comfortable way to travel until displaced by the automobile.PCC cars had all the benefits of rubber tyred vehicles with none of the drawbacks and ran on regular tram tracks with high efficiency.

Also got one in Bangkok. Bangkok is most varied transit city in the world, we have subway, monorail, trains, elevated trains and also rubber wheeled train. Right next to each other. Heck, our train system is so crazy, you have to get off the train, buy a new ticket, then get in again if you go over a certain part of the city.

I need Transit Engineering 101 to follow this. But, yes, I am skeptical of proprietary gadgetbahns, too.

Sapporo isn't only inside cause of the tires but also the 2nd snowiest city in the world. the amount of snow they get also hampers the rail

The fact that rubber tires makes less vibrations is important for metro like Paris or Lyon when the lines are not deep. Vibrations spread to the nearby buildings, and living nearby a metro line, I am pretty happy with the rubber tires.

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

Interesting, it may be a less expensive way to deal with NIMBYs than boring. This idea deserves some digging into.

@MarioFanGamer659

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 Your comment certainly deserves some form of a punishment. Sorry...

I much prefer a roar to a squeal. Gonna submit a plan for that Neoval to my local planning department. It sounds great for residence-heavy mixed use applications less that 20k riders per day

Mind. Blown!

I rode the Translohr system in Clermont-Ferrand this summer. It was one of the most uncomfortable journeys I've had on a tram.

@aldoso2

Жыл бұрын

I know very well this system in Mestre and in Padua; the interior is narrower then a traditional tram (the ancient P.W.s in Milan are a salon in comparison), but in these cities there are some particular bridges, where ordinary tracks could be problematics for the slopes.

In my hometown, Bologna, there has been an attempt to an optic guided trolleybus called Civis that eventually never entered in service (as local bus drivers considered it unsafe and it failed safety checks) and it had to be readapted to be used by new conventional trolleybuses. The vehicles involved were Irisbus Civis trolleybuses, which then were replaced for free by Irisbus (as compensation) by the Irisbus Crealis Neo. And anyway, in Italy there are two rubber-tyred trams using Translohr tracks, in Padua and Mestre, with one line in the latter system extending to Venice. As for the Nancy system, it was retired last month

"External factors" like building a streetcar/bus hybrid with rubber tires being adopted in a city with a large tire manufacturer being based in it. 8:29 A very diplomatic observation.

Tires are based, like the MPRT. They do allow for tight turns using 4 wheel steering.

@KaiHenningsen

Жыл бұрын

I don't see why you couldn't do that with steel wheels. In fact, I believe that at least some modern US freight train engines actually do that. (Probably helps especially with three-axle trucks.)

@gondolagripes1674

Жыл бұрын

@@KaiHenningsen we use them because of the steep grades along several portions of our track. The city is built on the side of a large hill and the majority of our guideway is elevated, so the cars have to be capable of going up steep grades at times.

Really wish you can do a video on Morgantown's PRT. In a way it is also a "rubber tyre tram", which is powered by guide bar. And by nature, it is a gadgetbahn. However, from a different point of view, it's more of an attempt to make automated taxi thingy using 70s era technology, and the only practical (?) pod car system.

Hi. French here. Rubber trains ("Michelines", Paris Metro) were invented to overcome wheel slip, for better acceleration, better braking, and thus more frequent services, a problem now solved by distributed traction and vector control of electric motor. Thus, new Paris metro lines are built with steel wheels nowadays. The 14 was designed in between, it was modern enough to be automated (with antique computer, even for the time, as far as I remember, all is managed with PDP11s!) , but quite not ready for super duper traction control with beffy power transistors. It also was a somewhat spinoff VAL, as VAL and M14 have some origins in the ARAMIS PRT project. The VAL uses rubber tires because it was designed by MATRA, of automobile racing fame. Thus, it's very light, it's a minibus on a concrete guideway, allowing very light guideway to be built for pretty cheap, with automation from the get go and high frequency. I don't consider both to be gadjetbahns. The Paris metro used tires because there was no other way to improve a technical problem at the time, and the VAL is a pretty capable light metro system with many advantages that allowed small cities to have a transit system. (I wont talk about translohr, ok? it doesn't exists. )

@etbadaboum

Жыл бұрын

Very informative comment, thanks!

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

Great input, although Gadgetbahns Don't have to be a failure, so I would still keep them in the catagory (along side the SkyTrain)

@blanceric6203

Жыл бұрын

More informative than the whole video, thank you.

@Damien.D

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 to be fair I think the neoVAL is more gadgety than the original one. The original one had become a standard with fleet interoperability possible, and the neo killed it with the stupid translorh-derived proprietary guide rail. In Rennes they now have two different systems completely not related thanks to this stupid idea from Siemens. The Rennes metro cannot be considered at network...

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

@@Damien.D I agree its a negative improvement, the original had a clear area of expertise (although, I think Skytrain out performs with a similar outlay)

as someone who works on them, loving the Krokodil in the background :)

In Japan, rubber tyred transit systems have been introduced in 3 types, subway, monorail and auto guided transit (AGT). Only Sapporo City adopts a full scale rubber tyred transit system for its subway lines similar to those in Paris. Other monorails and AGTs are adopted by a large number of business operators as a medium-capacity rail transport system. A rubber tyred tram system has not adopted even a trading company marketed Translohr in 2000s but no adoption result was made.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

Yep! It’s mostly crystal movers and monorail

I found this video much more balanced than the previous ones. I enjoyed listening to the argumentation. I somehow like this type of "playing advocate for the devil" argumentation, I thinl in this case it made especially a lot of sense. Great job!

in my city (Perth, Australia) there's been something of a push for 'Trackless Trams' recently--specifically, the ART system by CRRC. Pretty funny to me, since 5 minutes of searching will tell you their weight and tyre configuration makes them illegal to drive on our roads.

@dustojnikhummer

Жыл бұрын

Why would they be illegal?

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

I hoped thats what this video was about. I'm looking forward to the Trackless Tram, I'm sure they can change the law. What will be interesting is to see if the vehicle alignment causes rut formation and requires concrete guide way, at which point it loses all value. But, if Perth lets ruts for, rips up the road and builds a real Tram, and then puts the Trackless Tram on a new route to repeat, that would be something

@thegreentimtam

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 I don't get the trackless tram personally. Seems like a lot of work and expense for not much reward. I'd much rather see dedicated bus lanes and bus priority at traffic signals across all the 9xx bus routes, and maybe some rebranding, which would likely cost a fraction of the current vague plan to convert half a route to a "trackless tram". I also don't like that the City of Stirling is so obsessed specifically with the ART vehicle from CRRC. Volgren is making very similar vehicles for Brisbane Metro. But they're calling them what they are, buses. CRRC seems to be pretending they are in a different category in order to avoid a fair competitive tender process, and City of Stirling has fallen for the con.

@MarioFanGamer659

Жыл бұрын

@@neolithictransitrevolution427 This reminds me on ideas about treating BRT and trolleybuses as a base for new tramways and LRT since their infrastructure costs are lower than building a street railway.

@neolithictransitrevolution427

Жыл бұрын

@@MarioFanGamer659 I would love to see a jurisdiction explicitly set up a schedule for a project of that style. It's long time horizons, but you can cycle your Diesel buses onto a new route when they phase out, etc. At the same time you upzone along the corridor, so by the time an LRT is built you have a dense urban linear area.

The RATP (the company running the Paris métro) itself gave up with rubber-tyres at the beginning of the 1970s because they realized steel weels were just more efficient and retrofitting existing lines was too expansive. However it was deemed worth it to implement rubber-tyres on metro systems built from scratch. That's why Lyon, Marseille and every VAL network are rubber-tyred. Paris line 14 (opened in 1998) is also rubber-tyred but that was mostly for rolling stock mutualisation.

I clicked on this because I recognized my tram (Bombardier in Nancy, France) on your thumbnail. It actually limped to its inaugural day, pulled by a wrecker, and since then, it's been 20 years of throwing money at it to make it kind of work... Finally it will be put out of its misery in the coming months and be replaced by super long buses with optical guiding or something like that.

More modern train systems like Canada Line for example, can climb relatively steep grades (4 to 5% from the looks of it). So rubber tires are kind of redundant and over complicated. Plus, when it comes to manufacturing and maintenance, uniformity is key.

I haven't been in Paris since 1999, but when I was there we took the metro everywhere, and indeed..... they had rubber tire metro lines underground. I was intrigued, but it was a surprisingly comfortable ride.

I used to live in a somewhat steep city in Switzerland and they just had dual-mode trolleybuses which ran off of overhead lines in the city center and diesel in the suburbs and countryside. I don't know why more small-to-midsize cities in North America don't take advantage of this model, as the startup costs are relatively low and the flexibility of the system is quite good.

Medellin's hills are one instance where rubber tyres are vital. The city is along a valley, with the translohr up one side. Other perpendicular routes are operated by cable cars (gondolas) except regular metro along a side valley. But a trolleybus would also work - electric power but no track requirement.

Maybe you should also make a video about trolley-busses, quite popular in the eastern Europe. The main advantage is that you don't have to lay any rails, only the trolleys and you have some (very little) flexibility while driving (if there is a pothole, for example, you can drive around), but you don't have the pollution from the combustion engine.

@siggestaexs8745

Жыл бұрын

maybe you should check his channel

When I was in Mestre Italy, I saw a tram climbing a fairly steep ramp without any problems and was curious how they did it. Now I finally know! :)

Proof that there's no idea so bad it won't be copied.

Doesn't require a driver = I'll let it slip. Still requires a driver = WTF are you even doing?!?

Val my beloved 😍 . I find them really cute and it's nice for small cities.

Yep that is Nancy "trams". I hate they call them trams instead of buses that for 80% of the route move with the help of a single rail. Plus they have so many problems. I have not seen the line work for the hole route. There is always something and work done somewhere in the route. Plus the cars suck, and are small. They could increase the frequency a bit, in particular in the morning and afternoon.

Regarding the noise: when I ride the VAL here in Toulouse I feel like I'm riding on a vacuum cleaner

I love hearing the loud steel on steel squealing sound on the subway.

Thank you

10:51 Sounds just like the tunnel into the Underground station here in Perth (Australia). There a rather sharp turn which is also made whilst descending several metres, it gets rather loud.

btw they are removing the GLT here in Nancy too, current plan is to replace with trolly buses but who knows what will happen in the end

Fun fact: in Barcelona a similar vehicle operates as a superlarge bus in some of the busiest lines, but it is only that: a bus. When I saw the video image at first I thought you would talk about that hahah

In Padua, next to Venice, 2 more lines of the transhlor tram are being built. the system seems to be working decently

I would say that in some cities noise would also really play into it. A good friend of mine lives in the hague in the Netherlands, and the trams are insanely loud and seeing as there's about 8 lines running acros the intersection right next to his house, i could imagine rubber tires would actually be quite nice...

@timothystamm3200

Жыл бұрын

Might actually be louder if they are rubber tired, see the roar referenced in the video.

Rubber trains are my favourite train type. Technically they are good in "sudden" elevation changes as well as harsh climates. An ingeneer in the mexico metro said the steel rail/wheel system is the actual guide of the train, the "guide bar" is only for the energy power.

Reece, I’d love to hear your thoughts on Eglinton Crosstown delay and when you’d think it’d become operational. It’s definitely not the first time that a major and complex transit line has been delayed but I think there are many things to read in how it’s been communicated by authorities and how the community is receiving it. It’d be an insightful comparison to other delayed projects globally

@shaunmckenzie5509

Жыл бұрын

Watch Not Just Bikes recent video on Toronto

wonderful !!!!

Long live Metro de Santiago! But yeah it’s no mystery newer lines are steel wheel. Also finally some love to Medellin! 🎉❤

At least here in Santiago the rubber tyre lines perform better in terms of noise when comparing to the others, providing more comfort. Also, the sounds of the NS-93, which is a modified version of the MP-89, are a marvelous work of art.

The thing with rubber-tire technologies is that they are not all equal. As a Montrealer, I love the metro system we have here. It is reliable, fast, beautiful and a tribute to our french affiliations. Most of our system has been planned and constructed between 1962 and 1988, so it is the product of a certain era and I don't think it should be seen as some sort of regretful outcome. However, even the rubber-tire train defender I am wouldn't recommend that technology to every city for it really depends on the system you have or need. Steel-wheel trains have evolved since the 1950's and the invention of the parisian rubber-tire metro, which did fulfill its purpose at that time and still do nowadays (although to a slightly lesser extent). Unless a system has multiple, close stations and curvy steep tunnels, I don't see why rubber-tire trains would be a necessary choice. And converting a line to fit them is likely too much trouble for too few benefits. And that's for metros that run in a tunnel and therefore doesn't need a unreliable single-rail system on a groovy rolling surface. Really, as much as I like rubber-tire trains, I hardly see the point of rubber-tire trams outside of a particularly hilly terrain. In the end, I still see rubber-tire trains as just as good of an option to have in a metro system as long the said system actually needs them. Ironically, this is perhaps the main flaw of that technology. Steel wheels runs smoother and rubber tires runs softer (in a good and a bad way), but both works. Steel-wheel trains and rubber-tire trains both are as noisy, but just make different noises. Both are reliable. But what use to make rubber-tire trains relevant was mainly how good they could accelarate and brake compared to classic trains. That advantage has since noticeably diminished. So is it worth it nowadays to make a system use a different kind of more expensive just-as-good trains? I love rubber-tire metros and will continue to do so. But if Montréal were to add a line to its metro (which I really hope will happen) and decide not to use its well-known rubber-tire technology, I would understand why.

@RMTransit

Жыл бұрын

Of course, I love Montreals Metro - Translohr though…

@ostkkfmhtsh012345678

Жыл бұрын

Also today, there are the Japanese rubber-tired AGTs, most notably from Mitsubishi and Niigata Transys Co., Ltd.

Ah yes "Rubber tire rail transit", a bus that is in fixed route

Grea5 video mate

Worth mentioning that LIM systems (such as Vancouvers skytrain) don’t require traction of the wheels as the train is essentially being pulled a long and not driven by its wheels. This basically eliminates the issue of wheel slippage.

Val for Lyon ? never heard of this. Do you have a source to share ? I'm really curious about it

I don't know if you've ever covered this but I was recently in Caen, France and saw a rubber wheeled tram/streetcar riding in actual dpuble troughs where the double rails would have been..sort of guiding the tram along...even with relatively tight turns...could you tell us about this unusual system? Thanks...