1v1 them Jack

@Shabso101

2 ай бұрын

Definitely, i really wanna see Jack go against Seer

@the-method81

2 ай бұрын

I'll take appjack to win.

@itscmg331

2 ай бұрын

would be cool ngl, but these bots are EU servers only iirc

@Petals-kk1lb

2 ай бұрын

@@the-method81the worst version of seer is around 1400 in 1v1. Could be an upset

@Petals-kk1lb

2 ай бұрын

@@Jimmy19382no it isnt💀 Ultrawide GC, the creator Seer showed that it can beat SSL’s in a 1v1. Watch RocketSledge’s video

Seer V7 really shines most in 2 v 2 programming so I'd love to see you and a teammate 2 v 2 the bots! Please make this happen!

@benjamin8558

2 ай бұрын

id like to see what having a bot would be like as a teammate. how would the passing look like

@oibara2

2 ай бұрын

@@benjamin8558 it looks this good because it's passing to itself, i think - like an intelligence using two cars like you would use two hands. i don't think it'd work half as well with a human.

@fowlnuke

2 ай бұрын

The creator said in Rocket Sledge's video, that Seer V7 was trained exclusively in 2v2 as far as i remember.

@soumalb10

2 ай бұрын

On Johnny chanel

@benjamin8558

2 ай бұрын

@@oibara2 it could most definitely work in the sense that it knows where everyone is and how much boost everyone has. you could probably pass it to the bot itself as long as it doesnt try and steal possession from you. or it'd read your 50s, flicks, backboards, etc, almost instantly

25:10 - "they swept Oxygen, these guys can sweep bots" throwing shade at Oski and Joyo 😂

@2CamBad

2 ай бұрын

lol yes the comment i was looking for

Grab Leth for a 2v2 against these bots. His engineer brain will help you analise their patterns and he's the best at never forgetting these are code and not humans so he will not waste plays with tactics that dont work against "machines"

@gameing_0

Ай бұрын

100% agree was just thinking this

@tingledinkle

Ай бұрын

Leth did go for a 2v2 against this bot around 6 months ago. That was V6 and the results were similar to Vatira and Atow match against them. 3-2 with the win on Leth’s side. Though they have improved ALOT, I doubt even Leth can win against them now.

@Sportwagenfreak1998

23 күн бұрын

Leth played against Seer yesterday together wie Skippy. They got cooked bro. Couldnt win a game.

Jack, This version of seer is currently only a 2 v 2 version of seer and won't work in 1 v 1's now there is an old version of seer, seerv4, but its not as close to pro level (closer to SSL level) so not as good. So to play this version of Seer currently, you will need a tm8 to play with, and be sure to both be in a car with at least an octane hitbox or the bot breaks. Hope this helps Jack!

@MetroTO.

Ай бұрын

We really need a seerv7 skill lvl on a 1v1 bot

@ 6:42 the bot didn't jump because Atow couldn't touch the ball (he could still touch it even if it wasn't a good touch), it jumped because they learn from playing against different instances of itself, and it has never learned to go for a ball heading to its own backboard in the way that Atow did. They have learned that they can shoot when the ball bounces like that though. So it would have gone up regardless, if Atow hit a psycho there they would have just been scored on.

@AfonsodelCB

2 ай бұрын

basically, it visualizes every car in the pitch as copies of himself, and it thought it'd get a favourable position by challenging against its atow self

@snurffff

2 ай бұрын

​@@AfonsodelCB It doesn't "visualize". It has just never been in a situation where the opponent has gone for a psycho in that position.

@VoidLantadd

2 ай бұрын

​​@@snurffff Bro it's just a word, chill. And he's right anyway. At that instance it is making the most optimal move based on if a copy of itself was in Atow's position. Nitpicking the letter when the spirit is correct doesn't help anyone.

@snurffff

2 ай бұрын

@@VoidLantadd I took it as them saying it literally. I didn't think they were using it as a figure of speech. Because it's pretty plausible that someone might think the model is actually doing anything akin to visualization.

24:18 They do in fact know the time, and although they’re not required to keep up the ball at zero seconds, they still try to do it every time and regardless of the current score

@tubax926

2 ай бұрын

more sportsmanship than most players haha

@LungsStealer

2 ай бұрын

they try noticeably harder when they’re down

@Edss-nr6xw

Ай бұрын

That's an interesting insight into their motives. It seems their only concern is scoring and the ball hitting the ground stops them from doing that. If it cared about winning it'd stop when they're one goal up and could possibly go into overtime.

6:18 looks exactly the same goal as when Zen went for a phsyco today in the eu open quals swiss stage round 3 and he barely missed it with Dralii finishing the goal off.

@neil_surya

2 ай бұрын

looks exactly like the last 453987435 times ive tried to psycho in comp

@gnashr4366

2 ай бұрын

Yeah it's cool how pros are still learning to disrespect pyscho attempts and immediately counter, and the bot just does it the first opportunity it gets

@Zbro12

2 ай бұрын

@@neil_surya So true

One of the most interesting parts watching these bots on Johnny's channel is that they actually use powerslide a lot for slight sideways strafing while still going forward. Those tiny corrections to put them in the perfect position just scare me.

I would love to see you 1v1 the bot

@ImNotBonkrs

2 ай бұрын

Seer can’t 1v1 jack doesn’t know this yet tho but a 2v2 would be sick

@sidabundai

2 ай бұрын

@@ImNotBonkrsseer v4 can 1v1, not seer v7

@ImNotBonkrs

2 ай бұрын

@@sidabundai this video is not about seer v4 neither is the rocket sledge video you were talking about you absolute goober

@slimpickle47

2 ай бұрын

@@ImNotBonkrs dude, chill

@Anonymous-mi5le

2 ай бұрын

⁠@@ImNotBonkrsmate, why tf are you crying

The last touch that the bot makes in game 5 towards the end of the video at 24:25 - Vatira successfully fakes out the bot. You can see that he triggered the bot to jump and hit the ball because he came within proxy. He successfully told the bot "Hey I'm too close to recover" but was already turning around in time to make the save. This is super interesting to me for some reason. Given that they did try to fake the bots out multiple times during those two matches. Great vid, Jack. Excited to see you battle against one of these.

1v1 them, also would love if you get another pro and 2v2, maybe on comms

@hawleyjames7094

2 ай бұрын

yes this is what we want, maybe retals?

@Prometheus770

2 ай бұрын

@@hawleyjames7094 I think rétalas would be best because they’re weak to demos and they have great chem. Other pros/content creators like leth would also be fun

@Hypnos828

2 ай бұрын

Karmine Corp has done this already, go watch it

@Dark.Syndicate

2 ай бұрын

@@Hypnos828 ?? did u not watch the video?

@Hypnos828

2 ай бұрын

@@Dark.Syndicate obviously nottt

For the dota 2 bots, they gave them a 200ms reaction time handicap. I think adding such a handicap would make these bots more instructive.

@TheyCallMeJinger

2 ай бұрын

There is currently a version like this being made called ripple. Its training is streamed 24/7 at RLGym on twitch

@sergemarlon

Ай бұрын

I heard their reaction time is around 60ms. That could explain the moment where they both jumped for the ball at the same time

I wish these were available to the public, they would be such great practice in private matches with friends.

@keatonasuren

2 ай бұрын

I know, it’s sad cheater ruined it for everyone

@shavencarrot

2 ай бұрын

You'd get pissed on

@madeshsan

2 ай бұрын

Rocket league can simply add them in exhibition matches, just like the bots that have been in the game for ten years now. Maybe buy them from their creator, but always keep training and updating them 🤷🏻‍♀️

@oibara2

2 ай бұрын

@@madeshsan aren't these bots designed to keep learning and improving? i thought maybe it's more difficult than we think to stop them learning and have them stay at a certain skill level.

@RL_Happy

2 ай бұрын

​@oibara2 thats something you can easily remove

Suddenly I see why they swerve so much. Because it's a way to arrive later at a certain point without losing momentum by braking and then having to accelerate again. Mindblowing!

Amazing video Jack, really enjoyable. In terms of it reaching rank 1 due its consistent high level play, it will, if the developer fixes the issues with it kind of breaking in the middle of matches sometimes. Also the only way the bot learns is playing against itself tens of thousands of times, and you can take advantage of this by just bumping it so many times, it wont know what to do, because it hasn't experienced this in its learning matches. also , very strange to see the bot with ball cam off, cause it would see the ball all the time with the ball cam on ,so you would think the developer would turn it on during its matches with each other .

I also was impressed with that backboard read and the reaction time to score when Atow tried the psycho

Love the bot content, one of the most interesting developments RL has had imo. Keep covering it Jack :D

i like the idea of doing a 1v1 you have a lot of interesting takeaways. I feel like its a double edged sword, these bots might be great for speed/reaction time training. Also i feel like you should get chronic or firstkiller and do the 2v2. There's a whole other element when it's a duo of bots

The bots also don’t wave dash and speed flip very little, something to keep in mind as it’s either not as important as represented in pro play or it shows the further improvement potential for the bots

@Kyuubiboy321

2 ай бұрын

I think that when you have the option of having literally no reaction time needed and near perfect positioning, the actual speed of the car to get to where you need to be is less important - because sometimes increasing and maintaining the speed of the car also means that touches, positioning and rotations become less precise, I think

@MadNoisy

Ай бұрын

lol. You can see Jack's confusions. Sometimes I try to think like Flakes and other content creators but looking at these bots gameplay.... pffft crazy man..

a pro + a bot vs another pro + a bot in a 2v2 game seems interesting

13:35 absolutely. I'm not doubting it one bit

It always gets a reset because it’s coded to recieve a reward for getting it, nothing to do with a strategic advantage.

@MadNoisy

Ай бұрын

In training they get rewarding but not when the bot is released. So when people get to play these bots or any bot it's not in training mode anymore. 🤘🤘

@SweetShotGaming

Ай бұрын

@@MadNoisy It trains and “learns” to do resets unnecessarily because it learned that it will get a reward if it does. In testing/production, it performs the maneuvers that it believes will give it the most rewards, and hence will continue to do unnecessary flip resets. 👌🏼🤙🏼

@snekback.

23 күн бұрын

The bot creator himself said that the behavior appeared because he made the flip reset reward too big at first and it just kept farming the reward whenever it could. He eventually lowered the reward but the bot still did it somewhat frequently, probably because it found it to be an effective strategy.

@SweetShotGaming

23 күн бұрын

@@snekback. Yup 👍🏼

Great Video and good analysis. 💯

I feel like theres a way to always make sure a bots air dribble bump works, if they get it mechanically perfect, there will be situations where the best possible defender will not be able to save it. What im worried about is if peak rocket league is just whoever gets to the ball first and sets up the perfect air dribble bump

I think the aerial plays that confused the bots the most was when the challenging player went backwards or sideways, since it's unlikely the bot tried to score like that when training against itself

Definitely was thinking about you the whole time I was watching the video from Johnny yesterday. Please play them. Would love to see you and retals playing them!

is there anyway i can download this bot to practice against in the rl bot gui?

Great vid Jack. Super interesting to watch how these bots play.

We're gonna have a Deep Blue moment soon 100% if they keep improving at the rate they have.

I believe these bots aren’t programmed to calculate the trajectories of players/balls but are trained with learning methods. So as a result it could learned to approximate the math behind the trajectories over time as it learns.

You have some really good insights and conjectures about how the bots work. No wonder you're such a smart rl player

Do you think you can beat them? 😉

@sanikku5

2 ай бұрын

Please set Jack up for a match against Seer >:)

@theyseeyou7283

Ай бұрын

Imagine your own private bot in training that learns your plays and habits then replays the matches it had with you to fix its mistakes and beat you. Is it possible?

Their weaknesses are demos, like you mentioned, but also double touches. I watched Johnnys video and they never stopped a double touch off high back board, seemed to be noticed by the pros playing seer as well

They not only can see time but they start to play different depending on the result. Previous versions of the bot actually were actually programmed to troll if they realized there wasn't enough time for the opponents to win

@gavinderulo12

Ай бұрын

How do you define "trolling" to an agent?

@groos3449

Ай бұрын

@@gavinderulo12 He thought it to own goal and start spinning, etc. Then you give it an "incentive" to do it and a "punishment" if it does it in a bad time, like when they are losing. However I believe this was scraped because they aren't doing it anymore

Pretty cool now where can I buy it and how much?

Regarding the pre-jump for Atow's miss at around 7 minutes, the bot didn't know Atow was going to miss, it also didn't pre-jump "in case he missed", but it essentially looked at the "state" of the environment and there was some number (a probability).... that said something like "Atow has a "17% chance of touching the ball after rebound"..... so it used that "83% chance of miss" as a decision making property for it's next action. We humans kinda do the same thing, but with about 200ms extra lag and no real numbers. Very much simplified of course :)

if I remember correctly previous version of seer was also doing that kind of double commit team play we see on early game 5... with relative high success rate.

Do it man, it would be so interesting to see you play them

In Rocket League settings there’s a Spector ball cam setting you can check, I think it’s camera settings whilst in replays.

Reminds me of the nike ad where the players beat the alien robots 😂

Something to keep in mind with the bots, doing a flip reset dosent happen naturally it has to be rewarded, so if the bot is doing resets in a seemingly random position, it may just be doing it because it'll get more reward and is in a position where it wont lose the ball

When they played against OXG they were playing very different, they scored 3 straight goals air dribble bumping for example

Imagine your own private bot in training that learns your plays and habits then replays the matches it had with you to fix its mistakes and beat you. That would be the one of the best thing's tbh

Does anyone know where I can watch the footage of Seer vs Joyo and Oski?

I would have to imagine that they can achieve the same level of play every time. There's no reason they shouldn't. If they're being fine-tuned through reinforcement learning, they may also continue improving, learning from their mistakes (eg - it would eventually pick up on the telltales of someone intending to demo them, and figure out the best way to dodge the demo). I believe the reason they reset any time they can is because of their reinforcement algorithm rewards getting resets. If the reward is high enough, it will get resets whenever possible, even if it has zero intention of ever using it. It makes sense to set that goal because it does give an inherent advantage when you have a reset.

You could try the director cam to see a bit better the bot pov but you don't control the player you look at IIRC

its really interesting that this is a machine using cars as tools rather than it being 2 separate players. its way beyond what we know about the game and the human concept of playing it. which is also probably why they dont go for double taps even when it has the opportunity to do so, as it sees the other ''tool'' available. would definetly be interesting to see it develop some more consciousness and personality

Seer v7 is a 2v2 bot not a 1v1.

@ImNotBonkrs

2 ай бұрын

This is what I’ve been saying these commenters ain’t tryna listen to me tho it literally came from the creators mouth in the Johnny boo interview after oxygen 2v2ed them

@davidbreton927

2 ай бұрын

@TheoneUnkiejay exactly he also mentioned it in the Rocket Sledge video. I believe he also said Seer v6 trained for 1v1 but im not sure

can you do a 2v2 with these bots? them 2 vs you and one bot? im wondering how they would play WITH a person

Hey jack curious question , but do you think that playing against these level of bots is good practice for pro play

2:50 14:55 Base on my understanding on these bots they were encouraged to do as much flip resets as possible during training with a reward mechanism, kinda like how you treat a dog snacks when they do something good. It is likely that these bots have picked up a bad behavior during training that they can be rewarded by doing a unnecessary flip reset without actually using it to its advantage. This is probably also why they rarely actually attempt to use the flip reset to shoot for a goal even if they could.

I think atow can still touch the ball when the car jumps. I think it just hasn't seen the move before, so it sees it as no/low risk to jump

Can someone send me the link for the series vs oxygen? Can't seem to find it

I played against a player in the same cosmetics as the bots yesterday, not sure if it was a real player or not now.

they're reacting to server information about the ball and player position rather than visual cues, so players are never going to be able to compete with that reaction speed

A few remarks 1. These bots are aware of time. You will notice they became more agresdive towards the end of the match if they are losing. 2. These bots are 2v2 only. So they will not perform goid in 1v1. 3. Regarding demos, it will be a matter of time till they are able to incoporate them. 4. These bots are not programmed deterministically, in simple terms via thousands of hours of self-training, they know what is good vs bad.

@jameslightforce6194

2 ай бұрын

I'm guessing it's DRL or RL based then? Do you know what policy algorithm it uses?

@zaidalyafey

2 ай бұрын

DRL for sure. Not sure what specific algorithm, though.

@gavinderulo12

Ай бұрын

​@@jameslightforce6194would be surprised if it's not Proximal Policy Optimization since that's sort of the current state of the art.

@gavinderulo12

Ай бұрын

Depending on how the actions are sampled it could still be deterministic, so being in the same state yields the same action.

Love you Jack keep being yourself love the videos always good luck in playoffs!! 🫶🏽

Regarding why the bot so often goes for a flip reset: An older version of Seer couldn't deal with flip resets, so the author probably gave a high reward (in reinforcement learning terms) if it pulled of one (or defended against one), regardless whether it used the flip. I guess the frequent resetting is just an artefact of that. To be fair this is just an educated guess.

Yeah do it Jack, 1v1 them or a 2v2 with rentals would with comma would be awesome to see 👍🏼👊🏼

7:20 The bot learns by playing against itself and it jumped regardless reading the bounce off the backboard because it has never encountered a psycho before.

rocket league should add these bots to private matches I would love to try to beat them

My bet is that the reason it get resets and doesn't use them is because in training it is being highly rewarded just for getting a reset as the creator's way of trying to brute force it to learn advanced aerial mechanics.

We gotta see monkey moon race the bots to an aerial ball 😂 I’ve heard he’s pretty quick to get up

If the bot plays with ball cam off, then I would assume that the bot is getting player data location from some sort of behind the scenes data? If so it's not as impressive. It's like if a bot in COD pre-fire headshots a player coming around the corner because the bot has behind the scenes data of all player locations.

This is awesome wish we could have somthing like this in training be great to get better and love to see u 1v1 the bot. its a perfect timing jump like a Zero reaction thats just crazy. I wana see a App jack Bot lol haha

Definitely wanna see you 1v1 them!

@gavinderulo12

Ай бұрын

They aren't made for 1v1.

the reset is likely an artifact of the reward function for training, the bot is rewarded during training for resetting on the ball during an aerial, likely to try get emergent behaviour of flip resets.

Btw they can react to time or at least the 1v1 version cuz it would time waste sometimes in 1s

Of course we want you on a 1v1 against these bots !

We would love to see you go against it, though its not possible for it to play 1v1

Would it be interesting to see the ssl bots in a 6 man? Could you organize something like that ?

Would it perform the same againts the invisible hackers? The bolts could still “see” them right? 😂

I wonder what will happen when the two seerv7 are paired against invisible players

I've wanted to watch you try playing against Seer or Nexto since a very long time! please do Jack 🙏

Watching the full series, I definitely think that if future versions of the bot can figure out demos, then they will be unbeatable. The only other real weakness is flip resets, but I don't think that a human relying on flip reset only offense would be consistent enough to win.

@7dayspking

2 ай бұрын

Where's the weakness to flip resets actually seen in these matches? Seemed to have more trouble with double taps really close to the backboard and that Ceiling double tap play.

2 observations: 1. You would be a great person to have a chat with the bot developer. You can help him to create the truly unbeatable bot. 2. The Bots are barely in supersonic throughout these games. I suppose maybe its not necessary, but isn't it scary to realize that they could be so much more aggressive and speedy?

The other advantage these bots have is knowledge of opponent boost levels (assuming that’s true). That’s an inherent difference between humans and these bots.

@obscuritygamer2556

2 ай бұрын

omg

@Azhultin

2 ай бұрын

It’s easy to determine boost amounts from opponents

@gavinderulo12

Ай бұрын

​@@Azhultinit knows the exact amount. As well as the states and timers of all the boost pads. That's why it's boost management is so good.

Would love for you to chat with the creator about all the questions you had during this video. Are bots aware of game time? etc

go to settings, camera, spectator ball cam. now you can see Seers perspective with ball cam.

dark would out pace them surely, good video

@25:14 "these guys can sweep bots" Freudian slip? XD

I love when my tm8s call me a bot in rocket League I always say thank you for the compliment

DEFINITELY WANT THE 1V1!!

4:18 The creator of this bot commented, this bot version only works on 2v2.

RL is about to turn into chess, where players study bot strats to learn how to play optimally

I think V10 will be like the Terminator 2 run for your lives!!

Would love to see 1v1 against the bots or even better 2v2

do these bots have all the data from the game, so do they know how much boost the opponents have for example? or do they have the same information any player would have

@sanikku5

2 ай бұрын

Seer uses the RLBot framework and it's API to connect the bot to the game. The API sends data arrays to the bot in packets every game tick (120 times per second). The data in the packets include the physical state of the ball, the player and the boost pads. And yes, this includes the exact boost amount of each player.

Id love to see one of those bots try solo que.

Imagine when they can just launch a pinch in your net from anywhere on the pitch

The bots work by creating an algorithm which predicts where the ball is gonna move next, and the best move to make kinda like a GPT model or whatever

Jack at another point in the series it did get an areal flip reset on net, actually using it

9:40 "They always does"🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I wanna see jack play a 2 v 2 game against them

I love this content and would love to see you 1v1 one!!

Looks like they don’t take any time to think everything is a instant reaction rather then a human havin to think for a split second before a reaction

how to play against a bot? I think it'd be a good way to warmup

popping the ball up for a pre jumping teammate is gonna be meta. i kinda wanna see how good they'd get in 1s

get seer into a rings map for a couple of hours, butter up that movement a bit :D