I am not sure we can measure these new box sets by the same rubric we use for traditional studio recordings. In a sense, they are a completely different category of product. This new box set is probably not terribly beneficial for Jansons' legacy, but, here and now, it helps keep the orchestra relevant. The Bavarian Radio Symphony, and many other orchestras, has a permanent sound and video recording installation. They record a lot of concerts because it's cheap and easy. They own the recorded material, and they decide what to release. It's an entirely different business model from what it used to be, even 10-20 years ago. Part of it is to satisfy the local die-hard fans, many of whom are season ticket holders, listen to local radio, watch local TV, etc. But another reason for these frequent releases is to stay relevant in the new music business. Record labels, and many other publishers around the world, are under constant pressure to keep releasing new stuff. They need to keep their social media feeds going, they need to keep getting put on streaming playlists, and, of course, they need to keep making money whichever way they can. It's quite possible that, as part of his contract with Bavarian Radio Symphony, Jansons agreed to some kind of intellectual property sharing deal for all of those live concert and rehearsal recordings. We are likely to see many more of such boxes in the future, possibly including limited edition vinyl pressings and other "statements" from Bavarian Radio Symphony, London Symphony, Berlin Philharmonic, and others, most of whom have thousands of hours of live recorded music from many big-name conductors in their vaults (on servers). As you pointed out, the classical music industry has made their traditional product (studio-recorded, carefully curated albums) worthless, so now everybody has to adapt or perish.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Some adaptation. No one will perish if they do not make endless quantities of useless recordings, although I take your point that they may feel it necessary from a purely PR point of view.

@samuelheddle

2 жыл бұрын

I think what you're really seeing these days is the combination of classical music labels loving box sets and the greater emphasis on physical media as luxury product, rather than a way to actually distribute music. DG has started releasing stuff on trendy heavy vinyl, for instance. I wonder how many people who buy this will keep it sealed to retain the value (the Jarvi Beethoven vinyl box is now enormously expensive) and just listen to everything on streaming.

Once in a while, you issue a negative review of something that has the perverse effect of making me want it. For instance, the time they released the Gielen box with TWO versions of Mahler 6. After your sharp-tongued review, I raced off and bought it immediately - and thoroughly enjoyed it. This review has the same effect. These German radio orchestras recorded prolifically for broadcast, and there is something interesting about experiencing huge chunks of these broadcasts years later. They’re a time capsule. Conductors like Schuricht and Wand left similar piles of recordings of the same material made with radio orchestras. I see no reason why Jansons should not be similarly documented, since he is being held up as one of the few great conductors to have worked well into the 21st century. The last 20 years have been a wasteland in so many of the arts, so it’s reassuring that someone recent is respected enough to get the luxo box set treatment. If I had the cash, I’d stick one under my arm.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Your time, your money, your life. Have fun!

He's one of my favorite conductors. Everything he plays is gorgeous. But I can see your point.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, the joy of gross generalizations.

@ArgonautasMPB

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide It's just that, in my opinion, he's a very good conductor. I happen to like him a lot. Of course it's a generalization, but we do that when we like stuff.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArgonautasMPB I understand. That's fine.

I once talked about Jasons with a new music conductor, also from Latvia. He was annoyed that Jansons did only the same 20-30 repertoire pieces his whole life and never bothered to promote composers from his home country. That’s why I admire conductors like Neeme Järvi, who world premiered many living composer’s works, including ones from Latvia.

@joelvalkila

2 жыл бұрын

Just imagine how easily he could have made a Janis Ivanovs complete symphony cycle. But he probably didn’t want to be remembered as an ”Ivanovs conductor”....

@8Termini

2 жыл бұрын

@@joelvalkila Unfortunately, for similar reasons Christoph von Dohnanyi never recorded any of his father Ernö's works (to my knowledge). Luckily, Marc Andreae didn't make the same mistake, or we'd have been without Volkmar Andreae's wonderful pieces too.

@8Termini

2 жыл бұрын

@@hmhparis1904 Apologies, you're right of course. My mistake.

Im not the biggest Jansons fanboy myself, but I appreciate the observation about packaging the rest of this Bavarian Mahler cycle in this giant box. I think labels tend to do this a lot though. I do not understand the game that labels play by releasing singleton recordings of most of a symphony cycle, only to turn around to release a complete box (often times overpriced). Two quick examples of this are Gergiev's attempted complete Shostakovich symphony cycle on the Mariinsky in-house label (it currently omits Nos. 12-14). But, you can buy a complete cycle on Blue-Ray when they did concerts in Paris and have to spend over $200. The second example off the top of my head being Muti's Beethoven symphony cycle when he was in Philly. EMI released all of them on budget label Seraphim in the early 2000's, except for No.2/No.4 (a presumed coupling on a single disc), why? Then EMI, now Warner released and re-released a complete box. More examples? I'm sure there are plenty, but my tired brain fails me at 6 something in the morning.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Muti's Beethoven was always available complete, in a box, originally. I had it.

Jansons was more than a 'fine' or a 'decent' conductor. Under his baton, orchestras sounded very transparent and reached technical perfection. Furthermore, he was genuinely and deeply loved by his musicians. The problem in my opinion is that his renderings were so perfect and controlled that it could lack a certain fire. It hardly ever made you fly. I remember hearing the Rosenkavalier Suite under him, admiring the color palette but not being moved a bit at the same time. I prefer conductors who dare to let the champagne flow over the rim of the glass: Tennstedt, for example.

@geoffharris9396

2 жыл бұрын

Agree with you, although you could also have been describing Simon Rattle. There both far better heard live than for endless cut and edited studio work. Both of them always seem to me to over rehearse and this takes the spontaneity out of the music.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Performances that lack "fire" are hardly "perfect," but I'll take "controlled" as a synonym for "boring."

@markokassenaar4387

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I should've said 'technically impeccable' ..

@markokassenaar4387

2 жыл бұрын

@@geoffharris9396 Comparing those two, I'd say that Jansons is better in the 'vertical' aspect of the score: rhythmically it is just a tad crispier, more together and tighter.

@jlaurson

2 жыл бұрын

Microcontrolling and fussy, amazing, and yet sometimes dead on arrival. Bruckner, Haydn, and Mahler were really not even his thing, which was a bummer for a conductor in Munich. That said, when a concert (or recording) hit all the right notes and he let them play, it could be stunning. But the average was not good enough for my taste; in the latter years I did not seek out his concerts with anything but trepidation anymore.

David: How 'bout some Christmas music reviews? 🎄 Some of the old Argos, etc.

Thank you for mentioning what you did about the egregious decision to include some recordings as exclusive to this box set. It is genuinely annoying when labels do this.

Hi, Dave. Just a question: with great surprise I have discovered that a cd-box of all live recordings of Klemperer with the Concertgebouw has been released recently (24 SACD, covering the Amsterdam concerts 1947-196, the label being Archiphon). I think that not only myself would be very, very interested in your review of this box (in "very limited edition").

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

I'm thinking about it...

Hi Dave. Yes, agree generally. I do have the Concertgebouw box but that was more because I had collected all the other Concertgebouw boxes so once you go over a certain threshold you kinda want to finish up. Plus they tend to have unusual repertoire among the other things. I enjoyed it well enough, and was surprised at how well he did the Berlioz. I'm not a great fan of Rachmaninov 2 so I didn't really care about that one!

As you said Dave, Jansons was not a bad conductor but he never really wowed me. I remember a long time ago I bought into the hype and bought a set of Jansons conducting the Beethoven symphonies and after hearing the cycle i came away thinking that i could have saved my money and it would've been essentially the same thing. I'm glad to hear that he was considered excellent in Russian music--I'm going to have to check out one of those recordings.

@mistywalters

2 жыл бұрын

soft-edged, mild, and moderate. that's what he was.

I pretty much completely agree with David, but I disagree with the Jansons bashing I see in the comments. He has a lot of really great recordings many of which David mentioned. His St. Petersburg Rachmaninoff symphony cycle is probably the best all around cycle. He did some amazing Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius... The problem isn't that he was a bad conductor. It's that he was ridiculously over recorded. They literally have three discs just released of Jansons rehearsing Richard Strauss Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, Berlioz Symhonie Fantastique and Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. Can you imagine listening to a whole disc of rehearsal fragments of any of these works? Who needs that? Do they think some local orchestra will take the direction and try to play these pieces? It's insane! There are so many versions of the same pieces available that it's really hard to tell which ones are special and which are just okay. It's literally worse than Furtwangler's recorded legacy in that regard. But don't let that fool you into thinking that Jansons was a bad conductor. He could be truly great. It's his recorded legacy that stinks because of duplication beyond all sanity.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Well put.

Vary valid point to make a clear differentiation between visiting concerts and commenting on recordings. I live in Munich and I am a season ticket holder of the BRSO. With the MPO and the Bavarian State Opera Orchestra there are 2 other major orchestras in town. All of these are fine orchestras, but over the decades I would say that BRSO is slightly better - but of course depending on who is conducting. I have heard Jansons with the BRSO quite a lot. Some of his concerts were really good, others not so good. I remember one concert with Shostakovich 10th symphony which deeply impressed me. Later I found out that this was indeed the very last concert Jansons conducted in Munich before he died. A recording of this concert would have definitely been worth to be released on CD. Now getting back to this CD edition: do I have it? Of course not. Why should I? And I don‘t no anyone in Munich who has bought it. Back in the days I was a hard core fan of Celibidache conducting Bruckner with the MPO in Munich. This really was an era. And for this I have the EMI recordings which at least give a flavor on how special these concerts were.

Sorry that I must start with what you forebade (but let me finish): In Vienna, we had him very often live. And I guarantee you, he was live as avarage as his recordings are. In fact, I heard first a few of his recordings: Tchaikovski's 5th, of course, and a few other things, which convinced me far less. But a friend of mine urged me: You must experience him live. Well, I have been in many of his concerts, and all of them where mediocre. So, I went back to his recordings, but his repertoire wasn't so interesting for me. Great composers, but do I need them on record in performances by Jansons? In my opinion, he has no strong personality. He makes a good job, but none, which gives me something to think about. In fact, Bernstein or Stokowski or even Klemperer (and all other of the giants) make me sometimes really furious with their performances, but I like rather to be furious than to be bored, because I get just, what I have awaited. Jansons was in so few recordings special that I doubt, if he really was such a great conductor. As you pointed out: Tchaikovski's 5th, the norvegian Brahms-cycle, a few Schostakovich-symphonies (but not all of them, in my opinion) - and nearly nothing else. He was a nice man, of course, but I would have preferred a less nice man with more fire. In my opinion, he was a 2nd Kleiber-case: the overrated son of an underrated but far less known father.

I have never understood the general acclaim this conductor earned during his career..some suggestions?

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

Scratch my back... would be one. Anyway, most artists you hear about in the medias get acclaimed, particularly if they're average. Beware of general acclaim pattern formations, they usually signify mediocrity.

Your comments remind me of many popular music artists/bands that release previously unreleased material, proving why it was not released in the first place.

Would you ever make a 10 best recordings of Jansons? There have to be some gems among all those dupes (Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, etc)

@DavesClassicalGuide

8 ай бұрын

There are, but to be honest it's not a priority at the moment.

Are there any single releases featured in this box that are worth getting?

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Check out the conductor's reviews at ClasicsToday.com to see much of what's good and what's not.

Thanks for the warning, but I wouldn't have boutht this behemoth anyway, not being a Jansons fan. I'd much rather spend about one-third of the cost of the Jansons/Bavarian box on Decca's recently issued "Solti in London" box, which looks to be quite interesting indeed, given that Solti made some of his best recordings outside of the USA. I anticipate you are going to review it at some point, right?

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Right.

Which one is better?? I only got the Concertgebow Box And considering to buy the Oslo Box. I have some Bavarian individual CDs so I am not going to get the Bavarian Box, and it’s too big... I was shocked when I first saw it in a shop.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

OK, so do as you please.

@uzefulvideos3440

Жыл бұрын

The BRSO recordings definitely have better sound quality, wonderfully clear and balanced sound, impressive for live performances.

Great review. I like Jansons, but only have his EMI Shostakovitch box (which is excellent, in my opinion) and some of his Tchaikovsky. For some of the previous generation's conductors (Szell, Bernstein, Karajan, etc.) I enjoy hearing how they handled a piece, even if I don't especially care for their interpretation. I don't see that being necessary for Jansons.

On British amazon this is currently selling for £225 new (and £265 second hand ???) for 68 discs; seems a lot to me but I am mean. I don't get the conductor box set thing. I like Harnoncourt's rendition of classical and early romantic symphonies , I like his period influence; but I don't want his early Mozart symphonies for instance. So I don't want a Harnoncourt big box just the Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert boxes. I like Wit because he does Polish stuff really, really well, but I don't want all his discs because I don't enjoy listening to Tchaikovsky, Mahler, or Strauss. So I don't want a Wit big box either. No conductor is consistently good, and even if they are there will always be stuff by them we don' t like - so why buy their boxes? I am getting interested in Klemperer (it contrasts my period influenced tendencies well) but all I want is his Beethoven, Haydn (which I own and its great, thanks for the tip on that you are right) and Romantic little boxes - I don't want the Mahler and Bruckner stuff he did which I hate (a subjective not an objective comment). There is only so much one can listen to and focusing on conductors, rather than composers, strikes me as the wrong way forward. Big conductor boxes is just another way of selling more CDs to people who already probably own half the CDs in that box anyway. And boxes by competent, but not outstanding conductors, like Rattle, Marriner, so many other English conductors, and Jansons strikes me as just a silly way to waste money; all these conductors have done some very good stuff (Marriner's Vivaldi box is great) but we don't need their collected works.

There are two "concert suites" from The Firebird, W16a from 1911 and W16c from 1919, and the "ballet suite", W16d from 1945. I would think "Suite no. 2" would refer to the 1919 one.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Not here.

Completely agree - 100%.

Excellent explanation on evidence. If you take taste and hearsay away, a lot of columns would be much shorter and cleaner

The BRSO new label is the orchestral equivalent of today’s fascination with posting every moment of one’s life for the world to see…not every moment in life is memorable and not every concert is worthy of releasing to the public. . AND, speaking of the conductor shuffle, over the next few years Rattle is likely to redo all of HIS stuff when he takes over there!

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Like I said...

Much prefer his work in Bavaria over that of Amsterdam. That said, I think his best work was in Pittsburgh. The radio broadcasts had some wonderful stuff. Better than what Hoeneck does.

You said he's the most overrecorded conductor? Not Haitink for his billion versions of a Mahler symphony?

@phidelt2

2 жыл бұрын

or Bruckner

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

@@phidelt2 Exactly. Feels like a scam when they do that, and maybe hat's what all this is. Nothing feels more like a scam than an actual one.

These days artists make recordings as calling-cards; it's a given that all the repertoire has been done enough times. So maybe this was just made for fans of the BRSO? Perhaps we can evolve out of the past century of maestro-worship and start a new era of orchestra-worship...

He did 3 Mahler cycles (more or less, plus extras)! And I haven’t been able to get through a single recording because after 5 mins of listening I just feel like I’m wasting my time when I could be listening to more interesting versions. They aren’t bad, but why listen to Mahler that’s meh?

@uzefulvideos3440

Жыл бұрын

He is by far my favourite Mahler conductor.

I heard Janson's live once...very ordinary Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique something else very forgettable..and a Tchaikovsky encore that was very moving. This seems a microcosm of his career. I know you don't want comments on his live performances but this chimes with the recorded legacy.

"Boring (...), dull (...), vile (...), mediocre (...), uninteresting (...), average". Jansons' so 21st century. I've always steered clear of his recordings for some reason (musical spider sense, I suppose). Good to hear that was the smart move.

I’ll admit I’ve not listened to nearly enough Jansons to render an overall opinion on his lifetime oeuvre - and it sounds like I should keep it that way. I’ll pass on this box and keep on listening to other stuff.

LP sized box with CD sized booklet: typical!!

@jimster24

2 жыл бұрын

Erm….watch the video, it does have an LP sized booklet….

I bought the SACD box with the Bavarian orchestra for the most part very disappointing, nothing there would be my first choice, yet the critics liked it! This bumper box is very expensive in the U.K. so I shall be giving it a miss.

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

Beware of critics! I've read a critic's piece which claimed Jansons "created (...) a crack ensemble" out of Pittsburgh. Yeah, right. Conflicts of interests and financial issues generate a perverse alternate reality. In that alternate reality Jansons is one of the very best conductors of the last 30 years. But what does "best" means? Nothing much if anything.

@uzefulvideos3440

Жыл бұрын

I think the Mahler 5 on there is outstanding

Why do they do it ? For money of course, not really artistic endeavour, although they and their record company will have you believe it is ! Does anybody know what percentage of a top conductors income say, Rattle, Barenboim, Jansons, is made up from CD sales ? Am I right in saying that in the 60's 70's 80's an artist was paid on sale volumes, whilst today it's just a one off payment, whatever your name is ?

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Heinz Holliger doing Koechlin is both an artistic endeavour and a labour of love for great and neglected music. That box is just a money grabbing enterprise using uber-over recorded standard repertoire as a means to an end (pr and money). There's less and less space for art in art these days. Art is a creative space and shouldn't be a ploy to milk Tchaikovski and Beethoven dry of every cent they possibly can. The same applies to pop: with publishing rights selling for 100 to 400 million dollars (Stevie Nicks and Bob Dylan respectively) the same type of milking will occur.

Hard to believe a cult exists for someone as average as Jansons, but apparently it’s true. I run a little Face Book group that discusses classical recordings. One of the group rules is that whenever a news story arises (like a musician dying), we allow one new OP marking the occasion - if a member wishes to contribute to the topic they make a comment in that thread. It keeps the discussion in one place, rather than having multiple “breaking news” threads on the same subject clogging up the home page. When Jansons passed, the group was swamped with multiple threads of members saying how much they loved him, how sad his death was, etc. Naturally, the Admins enforced the group rule, deleting the multiple threads and reminding members to make their comments in the earliest thread marking his passing. Well, that action led to a firestorm of complaints from the diehard Jansons fans, a handful of whom quit the group over the enforcement of the rule. Some expressed their feelings that Jansons was such a great musician and their feelings about him so profound, that the group rule should and could be ignored. It remains the only time we have experienced such an overreaction in the group.

@leslieackerman4189

2 жыл бұрын

A matter of opinion after all. The musicians of the Bavarian Radio honestly loved him.

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

@@frankstein9982 good point! Was Mahler loved by the orchestras he conducted?

@markstenroos6732

2 жыл бұрын

@@leslieackerman4189 - one can be beloved and still be only average at what they do. In fact, by definition, most people are average at what they do.

What-two-hundred-and-fifty dollars (!) It's an outrage! Just think how much Classics Today merchandise you can get for that!

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@TheScottishoats

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide "Conductors Today-Keep on Recording"

@davidbo8400

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheScottishoats and recording the same stuff all over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... (multiply by 10K and you get classical music's "shining" moment

To hear you say "Simon Rattle is better" twice in one video is my biggest surprise of the day! However, considering the works, it's really not surprising.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

It is what it is!

Everything I ever wanted to know about Mariss Jansons and his recordings in just 30 minutes. Thank you.

That box is more suitable for a pizza. Utter nonsense.

CLASSICS TODAY = classical recordings of all worth while and listenable time (not the crap before 1950s)

That's a CD box set? Looks more like the Mariss Jansons board game. Or rather, the Mariss Jansons BORED game.

The people putting these box sets together must think the music buying public are total idiots. Jansons is a competent conductor, nothing more, nothing less.Nothing in his career suggests he's worthy of such a box set.

You can have a world-class, first-rate, deep and wide and complete collection of classical music and have zero recordings by Jansons in it.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly.