BK and Matt Jones were bloody lucky they got through that ok. BK almost drifted left of the landing though!

@allentufts5185

2 ай бұрын

I saw that too, he only had about a meter between him and the ramp edge when he landed. If viewed from behind you can see it in a Matt Jones video where BK drifted left for what seemed like 4 meters or so…

With such huge consequences I don't understand why they wouldn't do a "mock" test build of the jump in a safer environment? Then transfer it to the "river gap"

@Raminmarciano

Ай бұрын

What I can't understand why they don't use software ( maybe they do already ) to calculate and simulate the optimal jump with different speeds or something.

"We’ve been informed by a source at the event that the organisers have decided not to include the canyon gap jump as part of the Red Bull Hardline course. The news comes in the wake of a very close call during testing where rider Jim Monro separated from his bike on the takeoff and crashed into the landing zone, leaving him with a concussion." Singletrack World

Loved Matt Jones words before he rode it. “I’d rather crash the landing at 50mph than go off the edge at 1mph”

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

That probably represents the core of his life philosophy. :)

Interesting. That makes sense. When I saw it, my thoughts were the landing looked a bit flat, especially if you flew a bit too far. Way above my grade level regardless.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Oh yeah and there’s the landing.

Got the same thought when I saw the photos, "that kicker is too short, looks dangerous af". Thanks for making a video and growing awareness ❤

Well said! Congrats for speaking out! Hope Jim is healing without any drawbacks!

Lee you are my absolute go to for everything mountain bike safety related As a lifelong cyclist new to all this step stuff your educational content gives me the software to enjoy a sport with a potentially considerable downside. THANK YOU, SIR.❤

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

🙏🏼🤙🏼✨

landing was also a pretty small target to hit. good video, wonder if they have started work on it yet?

The other f'd up thing is if someone screwed up the run in, they can't pull out. You'd fall over the edge of the take off and land 50ft below on wood and steel scaffolding! It's terrifying to think of being in that position where you know you're not going to make the landing but can't stop before the take off! 😬

@davefellows

2 ай бұрын

Although, sounds like they're going to add a net at least.

@derektitch

2 ай бұрын

@@davefellows rumor is they trying too, but might not be able to in time frame , so it might be bypassed

@nickv3085

2 ай бұрын

Lmao who fucks up a run in when you’re committing to a big gap? Sound like a gaper bro

I have seen a interview with Valentina Höll (DH) on RedBull TV and she said she would never ride the hardline. Now I know why... Greetz from Germany Mr. Lee and thank you. My new bike is RAD and RAAD around 58.5 with a matching handlebar and it's perfect. I will never look back.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Wonderful!!

@nickv3085

2 ай бұрын

Brother she can’t handle a proper track. Is what it is.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@nickv3085 Not a cool thing to say. That woman is one of the greats, and she knows she’s worth protecting.

I especially enjoy trees, boulders, sharp sticks, logs, and other sorts of impalers or body breakers in landing areas. It's like trail builders stack that stuff in there on purpose. So fun.

100% agree. Amd they should of had nets and other safety gear installed for the testing.

BK and Matt Jones have said it's got too much lip. Wonder if it's going to change any.

@rubberside3969

2 ай бұрын

Matt has said they’ve changed the jump & reduced the lip… for next time👍

good video , but personally i do prefer speaking than just words gets me more engaged

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the feedback. This way is fast and easy for me - ideal for unpaid work. The videos in my member site are more dialed. www.llbmtb.com

Yes. The jump radius is too tight and the landing should be steeper and longer. This could put the event and riders at greater risk.

Live to ride and ride to live, iron balls but have the brains to go with it. Totally agree if it doenst feel right give it a miss.

Hardline and Rampage have just gotten insane when it comes to degree of difficulty and the consequence of getting something wrong. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of testing the mental and physical extremes of professional freerider/downhill MTB racers. I don't have a problem with difficult technical features. But when you put a rider in the air for the durations and distances that are becoming common, the jumps need to be designed to work, and to be forgiving of mistakes. A bad landing should carve off seconds from your race run, not years from your life.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Well said.

Bush league jump that’s inexcusable at any level of competition

I’m glad they didn’t decide to include this jump. I’d rather see riders get faster with more style over the existing stuff (maybe with some new/ interesting features), than risk their lives over that gap. Not to mention if someone died, the event could change forever, like the group B rally back in the 80s

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

I'll check into the rally reference. Thank you. Jumps can be built very big and also safe. The spectacle of the canyon gap is totally doable with the proper design.

@fullsendmountainbiker5844

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes yeah the group b rally had the most insane rally cars (lancia delta, Audi 80 Quattro just to name a few) pushing the limits, but unfortunately they killed too many people (drivers and spectators) so they ended up cancelling the whole thing

@fullsendmountainbiker5844

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes yeah the lip is just horrid on that jump

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@fullsendmountainbiker5844 Damn!

Adjust the lip and build a catch net so if a rider f#!ks up they don’t die. Not sure the pads help if a rider hits the face of vertical landing 🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

The whole thing is flawed. A jump this long means that even small amounts of wind are going to have a big impact. Yet it been built in a very exposed area. No b line means if it’s not safe to ride then the race cannot proceed, or if the wind picks up during a run the rider cannot compete their run

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Yep. Then there are the ethics of the whole thing, and how it affects young impressionable riders. I’ve seen firsthand what this aggro culture does to people. I was an expert witness in a case in which a young man was bullied into riding a trail he didn’t want to ride - suck it up! In a kids program! - and now he lives in a wheel chair. My gloves are off. To know a truth and not say it is a lie.

@brettjohnson9453

2 ай бұрын

​@@lee_likes_bikes 100% agree, in this case it's definitely not ethical to force riders to hit that jump to complete a run. I am really hoping that there's an alternate line and we just don't know about it yet. Jenna Hastings posted a video about the girls at Hardline but there was no mention of this jump.

They pulled it from this year

There's a double compression because the radius flattens in the middle. WTF were the builders thinking??

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

I hope one comes on here and tells us all about it. One reason to do that is to offer more opportunities to build speed by pumping. Not needed with that epic run-in.

@Bonky-wonky

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikesmy guess would be that it’s not built by the athertons but by a construction company with no bike/skatepark experience. I haven’t been to dyfi (yet!) but friends all say the jumps there are the best they’ve ever hit so I can’t imagine dan being behind this. Would be pretty straight forward to give it a constant radius, like in any wooden skatepark or fmx compound. They should have someone like colby raha rebuild it for next year.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@Bonky-wonky This makes sense. Dan does seem like a brilliant man and a great builder.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@Bonky-wonky From what I read on the Red Bull site, Dan oversaw the build. I'd love to know more about the thinking behind the design. I still hope it was an honest error from people trying to do good work.

That thing looked like a bad built circus jump!

Hard, techy jank > Evel Knievel stunts

pretty sure riders sign in before knowing about this, how scary

yep - i've stupidly ridden shit without checking it out and got bucked. sucks to be flyin thru the air goin 'oh shit!' stay cool, lee! ;-)

Too right mate! Too many "professionals" building dodgy lippy jumps all over the country, ridiculous that it's at hard-line aswell 😂

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Yes yes yes!! This is real stuff here. We must hold trail builders (and bike coaches) to a standard of safety. I see dangerous features all over the place. The worst track I’ve ever seen was a high-dollar wooden track by IMBA. I am very good on a pump track and could barely ride it. I heard the track is now totally defunct.

I know the jump would benefit with he correct points you’ve made. But isn’t the point of the jump as well as Hardline to test the riders and push them to the limits? So only the exceptional riders can jump it.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

What limits do we want to test?

@joeturner8646

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes death… no but seriously, I have no idea. The riders have a lot of say and with Gee Atherton involved with the build, I can only imagine they all approve of it 🤔 with the exception of (I can’t think of his name, the guy who did exactly as you said with bucking him off). I can’t possibly imagine or comprehend the skill of these riders soo… honestly, I could be talking shit.

You'd think someone like Gee Atherton would know better than allow a jump to be made like that.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

No kidding. My non riding but brilliant partner E insists they did this on purpose because crashes sell.

@jackdavidpiney8135

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes Do you really believe that G and the team would do that?

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@jackdavidpiney8135 No. I won’t even allow myself to think that.

they might as well replace the creek and crash mats with spikes and a lava pit. This jump is what would happen if Running Man married Nitro Circus and had a baby... not Downhill racing. I didn't watch Rampage live this year, I only wanted to click the link after knowing that everyone was ok. It'll be the same for Hardline Wales too.

At Tasmania hardline they made adjustment to the lip after track walk before riding, it was easy as it was dirt, just bust out the excavator for a bit, timber not so easy, but no excuse

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

It blows my mind how unprofessional and/or uninformed and/or just plain not caring these guys are, even at this elite level when the stakes are so high. The math is clear and any great rider can tell by looking. There is no reason not to build it correctly the first time. I can’t even. Again, if a Hardline builder wants to join the discussion here, I’m all ears and dearly I hope I learn something.

Based!

The transition has since been changed. The plan is to create a larger landing too. There was talk about a net but only for test runs, it won’t be left in place. Rampage has the canyon and this was designed to be hardlines version of that. Problem being is that rampage you choose what you ride, hardline you don’t! This is what happens when you leave Gee alone to do his own thing

Meanwhile, professional riders and professional builders are still progressing the sport, for their enjoyment, and us spectators. It's real easy to "back seat drive" or, "armchair quarterback" a situation like this, when, at the end of the day, as spectators (or, mere mortals) we will never fully grasp the psychology that it takes to attempt a jump like this ravine gap. So in the meantime, we can only live vicariously through the bold efforts of the select few that have what it takes.

it was never intended to be in the race, its just to hype up the race and create an internet buzz, which is what its done ;0)

Turning top level athletes into stunt people cheapens the accomplishments of the athletes. It's like that movie Death Race

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Remember when the men recently boycotted the Rotorua Crankworx slopestyle? They did that mostly for business reasons from what I read. When do racers say "No way I'm hitting that feature; I can tell the math is wrong?"

@pauljohnson2478

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes it's a bit of a hectic jump, maybe the most hectic of all time, but is the maths really wrong? All riders made it through the parabola even Jimbo

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@pauljohnson2478 a skilled rider who knows how to handle this can adjust and make it work. the jump can be equally huge and impressive and good for Red Bull and be built to minimize risk. Crazy question: what if this was done on purpose to get attention?

Ultimately, the feature wasn’t included. Nobody died or suffered a life changing injury. Hardline is about pushing limits. This isn’t a trail in a bike park, it’s built for an event that is designed to push the limits of the world’s best riders. I liked the explanation of why it didn’t ride well, but don’t think that the criticism is called for.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Thought experiment: Your child becomes paralyzed on that jump and, in addition to your entire family’s life changing, you need $10 million to take care of your child for the rest of their life. Would you hire a law firm to get this money? Would they go after this violation of industry best practices for jump construction? Or would you say oh well, that’s the price of progression?

@bc19cic

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes My child is 5. If someone allowed him to attempt to ride hardline, I’d seriously question their judgement. My point is that these are the world’s best. They have exceptional skills and they knowingly take these risks as part of what they do. When my son is old enough, if he is good enough to ride hardline and he chooses to take those risks and then something goes wrong, I would be extremely sad. However, there would be no need to hire a solicitor to pursue $10 million because Hardline is in Wales, where the currency is £. Also, such events would be covered by the event’s PLI and/or his own insurance.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

@@bc19cic “These risks.” What risks will you accept that your son take? What risks are not worth taking? I’ll start. If/when my daughter Finn is ready to ride at this level I accept her riding fast and hitting big jumps that are built so that the shape of the jump itself does not add risk. There’s enough risk in wind, equipment failure, random mistakes, etc. I do not accept her riding a jump that has an abrupt angle change at high speed before a gap. That aspect of the design adds no flow or spectacle or radness. Clearly a great rider can make it work, but it’s all cost with no benefit. Not to mention the difference between sessioning something at a low heart rate and executing it at race effort. As I recall, this track has some bigger jumps. Those are built correctly, hence the lack of conversations about them.

@bc19cic

2 ай бұрын

@@lee_likes_bikes It’s easy to criticise others. It’s harder to lead by example. I do understand the points you make and would agree if this was a bike park feature. I’d even agree with you if it had been included in the final course. I just think that you’re missing the point of what hardline is all about. The limits were pushed, to a point where the risk was too high, then that feature was removed from the course. Maybe it’ll be redesigned for next year or maybe it’ll be abandoned all together. Personally, I have more respect for someone who tries and fails than I do for someone who fails to try.

Lee, if you watch the full edit of this video, they recognised the problem after the first few attempts and voiced their intention to rectify it. It seems a little churlish to publicly criticise them for a mistake they have already acknowledged and intend to fix. Let's wait and see what happens on race day first.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

Churlish is a juicy word. You sent me to Google to make sure I know what it means! “Rude in a mean-spirited and surly way.” I do not agree. Making a video like this takes significant time, and it exposes me to criticism. I only do it because I know this subject, and I’ve seen up close the downsides of poor jump design and decision making. As Jordan Peterson said, to know truth and not say it is a lie. I am pointing out an issue with the ways jumps are sometimes built, and the culture that has riders testing jumps with their bodies. There’s a difference between big and challenging, and improperly built. Every rider, from these elite pros to beginners, is well served when they learn how to assess features and make informed go/no-go decisions.

@davehumpleby3440

2 ай бұрын

@lee_likes_bikes if you watch Matt Jones's most recent video, he announces that the river gap will not feature in the race. The course designers and test riders swiftly came to the conclusion that the risks were unacceptable, and they have taken the appropriate action. I sensed this would be the case from Matt's previous video. I appreciate and agree with your concerns, but just felt you could have given them a little more time to announce their decision before questioning their abilities.

@lee_likes_bikes

2 ай бұрын

​@@davehumpleby3440 Thank you Dave. The mistake was made when they put riders on that jump. I'm glad to see they are omitting that part of the course, but it is not OK to put riders in unnecessary risk, especially in a world where safe jump design is not a secret and any informed eye can see the issue. This goes way beyond this particular situation to the broader culture. Would you want your child out there testing that jump? If no, why is OK for other people's children to do it? For the rest of his life a friend of mine will be taking care of a his sweet, smart and tough quadriplegic son because of stupidly risky riding at the hands of a paid coach with this Ballistic Bro mentality. This whole family's life has been irrevocably changed for a very foolish reason. I cannot unsee that tragedy. I will say the truth. I don't care if the MTB world thinks I'm not cool or just plain full of s***. If I can help save one rider and his family from a life of needless suffering, I'll do it.

@davehumpleby3440

2 ай бұрын

@lee_likes_bikes I've been subscribed to your channel/s since your Joy of Bike days, respect your views, and certainly do not think you are full of sh*t. In retrospect, churlish was the wrong choice of word, for which I apologise. I just thought publicly criticising them for something they had already acknowledged and planned to address was a little unnecessary. However, from your last reply, I can see why you feel so passionately about this. The important thing is, the extreme level of risk was recognised; deemed too great, and the line aborted. It's more than challenging enough as it is! I look forward to watching the race and hope all the competitors complete it unscathed. Namastoke.

@KS-iy5xr

2 ай бұрын

@@davehumpleby3440 your comment reeks of arrogance. The fact it exists shows you miss the point. If the track builders had recognized the issue that is obvious from pure observation before the first rider jumped it this video would not exist. The fact that a rider got injured on such a piss poorly built jump that a track builder at their level created is the real shame here.

It looks better than Brandon's rampage gap. But that wasn't built by Red Bull. I doubt they mess up like that again at least. Learning comes more from mistakes.