One small advantage not mentioned for the Britons is the fact that the blast damage from a Warwolf treb can potentially kill an enemy's repair villager (not sure if you need to use attack ground for this, but still) while still damaging the enemy treb.

@Progeusz

Жыл бұрын

It's actually the most important thing at times. Treb wars very often have repair vills involved and Warwolf trebs quickly remove them.

Random trebutchet comparison post on a meme site was a thing that got me back into Age of Empires after /years/ of not even thinking about it. It made me realise it seems to be much deeper and more interesting game than i had capacity to experience as a child that didnt even speak english and im so glad i stumbled upon it!

@Tpoleful

Жыл бұрын

I couldn't agree more. I played aoe1 and 2 as a kid and 3 as a teen. I remember enjoying 3 a lot more than 1 and 2 because it had a huge variety of units. But now, after playing 2 and 3 DE and watching pro games, I concluded 2 is the most enjoyable game of the three. Aging up in Aoe2 actually evolves the game significantly and 1v1 multiplayer is really well balanced around it.

@harshawardhanthopate487

Жыл бұрын

Kinda stepped onto my point man

@jordivermeulen2519

Жыл бұрын

same, when I was a kid I just played Byzantines because they had the most things available on the tech tree, and then just made Cataphracts because they looked cool. I had no clue about unit counters, bonus damage, creations time, build orders... Crazy to realise when I got back into it how deep the game actually was.

@sanethoughtspreader

Жыл бұрын

@@jordivermeulen2519 I used to play as a kid with all tech allowed. I used to think that was the most fun option! I'll never go back to that!!!

@MrLaptopus

Жыл бұрын

@@Tpoleful Same here. Always liked AoE 3 more but because of this channel I've started playing AoE 2 a lot

Anytime Spirit can put Japanese #1 on a list he is there for it.

@08vinster

Жыл бұрын

did you even watch the video?

@LordOfNothingreally

Жыл бұрын

@@08vinster Did you?

@meneldal

Жыл бұрын

There aren't so many things you can rank Japanese #1, it's basically infantry and trebs. Maybe you could stetch it for some dark age build order requiring less wood.

@yep8058

Жыл бұрын

gachiBASS

@tiibagstyler6556

Жыл бұрын

@@meneldal Japanese towers are badass too. Almost as during as castles I believe?

7:24 I think it's actually more advantageous for when YOUR trebuchets aren't set up yet. If they're just entering the battle, they can set up in a position that forces the enemy trebuchet to pack, move, and unpack, all while you're still able to get damage on them. PLUS, since trebuchets don't do that automatically, if your opponent is distracted you can easily take out most of their trebuchets without them even noticing until it's too late.

@filodipicori

Жыл бұрын

Which also applies to Seige Engineers vs. non-SE, with that +1 range. For that reason, I think Spirit is wrong to place Huns over Britons for Treb wars.

@Fera-gr5mm

Жыл бұрын

Also packed trebuchets can be instantly killed, so if the packing is done at inappropriate time...

@Booklat1

Жыл бұрын

@@filodipicori he was mostly considering early imp treb wars tbh at post imp it should change a bit

I think Tatars deserve more love in this video. You could've included the hill bonus for the damage to buildings for example. The extra range can also be more situationally good in treb wars when it comes to positioning, it can really be a pain to fight Tatar trebs when you have to move your trebs in an awkward position and further away from your Castle.

@Kahlenar

Жыл бұрын

One other implication of the Tatar tech is that they become the best counter attackers in a treb war. If you are Tatars and someone beats you to the trebbing, say they have 2 trebs. If you counter attack with 2 trebs, chances are decent that it won't become apparent until you are firing due to the long range of all trebs. Your opponent must now pack, move, and unpack their trebs to start fighting back and that's a good time for you.

@JohnSmithEx

Жыл бұрын

Timurid Siegecraft: Trebuchets have +2 range, enables access to the Flaming Camel. -- Unleash the flaming camels!

@SIGNOR-G

Жыл бұрын

Timurid trabuchets is in a way a defensive bonus. The enemy must risk more to destroy your trabuchets wich exposes them yo your army.

@GoranXII

Жыл бұрын

The Tatar's +2 range works in both defensive _and offensive_ 'treb wars', since if Tatar trebs set up outside the range of another player's trebs, that other player then has to pack, move forward, and unpack, so the Tatar's get in a free shot either way.

@anghainguyen9951

Жыл бұрын

@@GoranXII not only that they have to but it in front of the castel with make you have easy time to harass them.

Super amazing tip, build 2 walls in front of your treb you will block a huge percent of stray shots, only 100% shots hit

@jemand8462

Жыл бұрын

who has time for that let alone moving vils along with your army?

@nicolasschumacher7925

11 ай бұрын

​@@jemand8462for defend your castle that seem to be a good advice

fun fact: kataparuto (カタパルト) is just the closest the japanese writing system can get to the pronunciation of the word "catapult"

@spencereades

Жыл бұрын

So it's a Romanization? That's interesting, but now it makes me a little uncomfortable to say "kataparuto" out loud, like now I sound like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's

@sanethoughtspreader

Жыл бұрын

Yup! And the Japanese units say lovely things like "I'll dig" which is also a euphemism for "I'll fuck"

@sanethoughtspreader

Жыл бұрын

掘ります( horimasu)　掘る (horu) means to dig or to f**k ;) They say it whenever you click on stone or gold.

@The-jy3yq

Жыл бұрын

@@sanethoughtspreader ah, yes fucky fucky hole

@IschmarVI

Жыл бұрын

yep. Kataparuto is "catapult" in smooth-and-clean Engrish :3

"I also like how quickly Sarracens have CATAPULTED themselves into the conversation"

In my opinion Tatars range advantage would put them higher in that list. Very practical bonus. It gives you more reaction time in a game that often has very fast pace.

I think SotL underestimates the extra +2 range a lot! The common situation of trebwars with castles can mean that your opponent can not choose to come to attack your trebs or is out of position they need, since the positions of the castles are fixed and so they might leave their trebs vulnerable. Still locked behind an expensive tech though

@hikatoyshi

Жыл бұрын

Yes but Timurid siegecraft has top priority anyway, since it unlocks flaming camels.

I already love Tatars, but the extra treb range I find is very useful, especially as a cavalry civ. It lets me park further away, meaning my opponent will take longer to get their response there. While that is going on, I can do more damage to buildings, and prepare my cavalry on either the wings of the trebs or just behind and between them, to swoop in and create a blockade to shield them. The "consciously taken advantage of" comment I fully agree with, and it's kinda funny that pretty much all the Tatar bonuses need this mindset to work at full power.

@lizardemperorkorbac4281

Жыл бұрын

Agree, I find the Tatars extra range very useful. Another not mentionened bonus of them is, that your troops defending the trebs are less likely to walk into castle fire in the heat of battle.

@tyranitararmaldo

Жыл бұрын

@@lizardemperorkorbac4281 YES! That is so much of a weight off of my mind.

@unimportantcommenter4356

Жыл бұрын

@@lizardemperorkorbac4281 It also helps in taking out enemy deployes trebs aswell. Since trebs are stationary while firing, Tatar trebs can deploy outside of the enemy's effective range, thus forcing them to come closer or retreat.

@Nysyarc

Жыл бұрын

Another thing that's nice about the Tatars in particular having bonus range on their trebs is that the nearest elevation advantage on an enemy castle could be more than 16 or 17 tiles away, so other civs would need to unpack their trebs closer on level terrain but Tatars could unpack on the distant hill. Might not be a common situation, but I'm sure it's happened.

You know I always found the exact bonus that you got from researching Warwolf to be a little odd when you think about it in relation to what made the actual Warwolf so special. That being that it was much larger than normal Trebuchet, able to destroy castle walls much more consistently. So really it should have been a damage bonus rather than an accuracy one.

@CallofDutyBlackOps28

Жыл бұрын

i guess the idea was "sense it's so big; the objects it flings will always hit true" more then just "damn; that thing just took out that entire wall section"

@samuelbynum5066

Жыл бұрын

If memory serves, the reason it gives accuracy is because of the way splash damage works. Due to the way the game is programmed, if you have splash damage the accuracy essentially becomes a roll to see if the unit suffers any damage. So, if it didn't have the accuracy boost, there'd be a decently high likelihood of it hitting in the middle of a blob of units and dealing no damage to anything because it technically "missed", despite clearly hitting things. Thus, in order to give Warwolf splash damage (which IMO makes some sense for the biggest trebuchet), they had to also give it an accuracy boost, which is not ideal, and an unfortunate consequence of the game's code, but it is 23 years old, so what can you do. I could totally see it doing extra damage vs. buildings instead though- but at this point it's probably too late for that.

@Kihanacloudy

Жыл бұрын

@@samuelbynum5066 Actually, 'missed' shots deal half damage, not no damage, to those hit incidentally; afaik, splash damage never takes this into account anyway, though it's possible there's some wonky stuff with onagers going on that I'm not aware of. Anyway, without the accuracy buff, you'd be looking at War Wolf trebs being functionally identical against blobs of units, but only marginally better against other trebs. The accuracy boost feels to me, therefore, like a bit of flavor instead of historical accuracy; they wanted the biggest treb in history to feel more powerful against other, technically 'lesser' trebuchets, so the accuracy buff was an easy way to make it the best in that regard.

@jonathann.5754

Жыл бұрын

should've been a unique unit version of the treb imo

@CallofDutyBlackOps28

Жыл бұрын

@@jonathann.5754 i think after "god's sling" and the other one from Saladin's campaign, i figure for them, having more then that'd have been over kill.

I still like tatars a lot. You can keep your trebs behind your castle and an enemy civ will have to place theirs in front, giving you a clear defensive advantage probably more impactful than the teutons, more because I value positioning of trebs over any inherent bonuses to their intrinsic tankiness.

@elduquecaradura1468

Жыл бұрын

also longer range means more of your trebs shooting against a treb at the same time without needing to unpack

SotL, in case you care about suggestions, make a video on which civilizations are the most and the least reliant on their castle techs and unique unit. Maybe add which ones have an easier time getting one up.

I think we know the winner of all treb wars is the bombard cannon

@hopelesssituationwarrior6996

Жыл бұрын

Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well

Tatars have the advantage of being able to place castles out of castle range, forcing enemy trebs to come to them

i think in treb wars Warwolf ist more important than u mentioned since u can damage the repair vils (maybe even multiple ones) while damaging the trebs. That is pretty huge

@valger3652

Жыл бұрын

Agree, Warwolf have high impact in treb wars. According to other treb UT's : in typical scenario - early imp treb wars - usually researching it not worty right now .Too expensive, also costs idle time for treb production. So in practical sense, i rather put in first tier list Portuguese and Aztecs with free bonuses, instead of Saracenes and Japanese.

@markburke1396

Жыл бұрын

well he did say that Britons with Warwolf is the best. It's just that you have to research that tech first which is expensive. Huns would win that treb vs treb war. Also if you have to research anything out of your castle that means your not producing which also needs to be considered. if you ever play a 1vs1 I find it hard to get those research, and overall a passive ability will be used every single game. i think he made the right choice, but it depends on the settings you play.

@MaryamMaqdisi

Жыл бұрын

@@booradley6832a good hun player would be extremely aggressive on a Briton assuming an open map, the situation you’re describing assumes the Huns are just chilling until imperial, or that somehow they fail to use their insane mobility against Britons. Considering how good Britons are when booming that would be the stupidest way to play Huns in this match up. Just spamming cavalry, CA and siege is the right play for the Huns, pikes fall easily to CA and cavalry can easily kill archers and both raid. Ultimately one forward vil can make archery ranges on your face to add skirmishers too if needed Edit: in case my point wasn’t clear, if the Huns let the Britons build up it may as well be GG due to the late game ceiling of the latter. Skirms are great vs both archers and pikes, so huns could easily add more trash to their army to slowly take over the Britons’ resources until they can steamroll them with siege. Even if the game is dragged until imp the Huns should have made significant use of their military flexibility, mobility and discounts, and if they failed against the Britons on all these accounts on an open map then I doubt the Huns played well. You don’t wait until the Britons have two castles and mass longbows, you strike hard and fast and cripple them before they can potentially outboom you and take over

@deutscher1a

7 ай бұрын

So your point is that a boom civ wont fortify and will always lose against mobile agression? why compare trebs at all then? What about arena matches? How come theres not a 100% winrate for cav civs on open matches? And why is the teuton scout superior to even some hussars?@@MaryamMaqdisi

The tatar bonus is great in treb wars because it forces the other player to bring their trebs further forward where they're less protected. That wasn't mentioned in the video which is strange to me since it's much greater than the bonus of getting a couple extra shots in as the trebs approach (though it may be worth mentioning too that a single hit destroys an unpacked trebuchet too which tatars at least have a chance at getting)

@markusdegenhardt8678

Жыл бұрын

Even more important might bei that in a treb war with several trebs on both Sides the enemy trebs have to move to Hit all tatar trebs. Meanwhile the tatars can fire all the time. It is absolutely great If the tatars dont Put there trebs in on Line and instead Put some distance between them. In this scenario they might even Beat all the Others since the packing process Takes so Long.

@SIGNOR-G

Жыл бұрын

@@markusdegenhardt8678 when you research timurid siegecraft you practically gain artillery. You can bombard enemies castles from so far that the enemies have to risk their own armies to stop you

@markburke1396

Жыл бұрын

I was hoping Tatars would be higher in the list, but as Tatars are my favourite civ, I actually find it really hard to get to complete that research to allow for it. in 1vs1 I find there is always something else I rather spend my resources on and never get it. Tatar UT = 500 Wood, 400 gold Briton UT = 800 wood, 400 gold

@Booklat1

Жыл бұрын

@@markusdegenhardt8678 by spreading trebs you're also more likely to avoid stray shots

I just love looking at the 16 + 3 on the Tatar trebs and just watching the projective go farther than the screen

I am very proud that SOTL has paid attention to my suggestion to do this top 5, I suggested it to them 3 weeks ago

Thirty four percentages are zero percent what we deserve, but a hundred percent what we need, thx SotL!

The Huns bonus is something I see in games way too often - When a description of an item, tech, ability, whatever reads: "30% more" of something. You never know, if it is actually 30% of the base value, 30% more of the current value, or whether it's additive or multiplicative

@IschmarVI

Жыл бұрын

it is not only confusingly written, it is also actually wrong 11. The bonus increases the accuracy of trebuchets against units from 15% to 50%, which mean, it adds 35% to the accuracy.

@devilpistons1269

Жыл бұрын

ehhh, i don't know if i'm with you the multiplicative ones are usually written "xx% faster" or "yy% less", whereas this one, an additive one, was written "+30%"

@linker94

Жыл бұрын

@@devilpistons1269 Yeah I agree, its literally written in the bonus that its "+" aka additive. Dont know why everyone is so confused by this. There are other examples in the game where this applies, but this case is pretty clear

Cool one. A vid to tell us whether we should target the trebuchets or the castle in various situations would be nice as well.

I feel like Tatar should be higher if you note to build your castles further back than normal so the enemy has to expose their trebs to respond to yours

@magica3526

Жыл бұрын

especially since it lets you take bigger advantage of the hill bonus by making it easier to find hills in range of your target

@markburke1396

Жыл бұрын

I was hoping Tatars would be higher in the list, but as Tatars are my favourite civ, its actually really hard to get to complete that research to allow for it. in 1vs1 I find there is always something else I rather spend my resources on and never get it. Tatar UT = 500 Wood, 400 gold Briton UT = 800 wood, 400 gold

@magica3526

Жыл бұрын

@@markburke1396 Especially since tatars main unit, the cav archer, uses those same resources

Warwolf has this additional advantage in siege that it can snipe occasional blob or other key unit if the enemy is not paying attention. When trebs are focused on castle or other trebs, you rarely expect them to fire at defending units instead. You also rather expect trebs to try to outdps the repairs done by vills, and not to splash-damage them. Japanese trebs are clearly superior choice for offensive purposes - able to deploy and burst buildings quickly and retreat more easily if threatened. Tatar bonus has this pretty important advantage that it allows to better force engagements - enemy can't stay at comfortable equal range, they have to come closer, possibly exposing themselves and perhaps being forced with units out of protective bubble the castle's firepower offers.

Top quality content in true Spirit of the Law fashion

@jefffinkbonner9551

Жыл бұрын

He needs to bring back his theme song!

Loved this video! Especially all the breakdowns of what the numbers really meant.

I don't think it's enough to change the ranking, but another great benefit of warwolf is that the blast damage kills repair vills.

There isn't another KZread channel whose videos I watch ASAP after seeing them posted. This is top notch quality production.

With huns you can always bring your pyromanic cavalry to haste things down. :)

the actually good use for the tatar extra range is for when your opponent started trebbing your castle, then you can fight back from a distance without them being able to attack back

I think the Tatar extra range is more comparable to the teuton extra Armor, because it offen means that you can Position your trebs more defensively. For example next to your Castle instead of in Front of it, which makes it mich easier to defend them from both melee and range Units trying to Snipe them

Saracens “catapulted” themselves. I see what you did there, sir….

Excelent video!! It is more oriented to practice than other videos.

"In total there were 34 percentages brought up." Did you include that one?

Absolutely brilliant video as always. Love those percentages! As an age of empires 2 player since age of kings and an aoe player in general since the rise of Rome free demo, could I possibly request more age is empires 4 videos. I really don't like age of empires 3 and at first 4 was very unpolished, but recently with the addition of ottomans and Malians, it's really getting there. I'd love some comparison videos between different economic bonuses and/or different units in age of empires 4, if you're up for it :)

Huns(and to a lesser extent Britons) have a very important strategic advantage, which is that they don't usually use their castles other than for making trebs. So instead of rushing to make a castle and using uu which would slow down their imp time they will make one castle just to defend the base and make trebs later, which would smooth out the imp timing. Alternatively they can make the castle forward while going up to attack even faster and defend the trebs with the castle itself.

quality videos... love to see keep going bro

These videos make me realise how intricate the maths are. A game of aoe can have an immense amount of calculations. I mean these are only the trebuchets we are talking about

The range bonus can make a big difference if the enemy trebs are already unpacked. You can attack them from outside their range, and they'll have to pack, move closer, then unpack before they can fight back. It almost forces them to move their trebs, which means they'll stop destroying your buildings briefly, buying you time to bring in other units to deal with them. And if they stay put then your own trebs will simply kill them with no resistance. Especially on a unit with such limited mobility, range is very important. Imagine a custom civ with both the Japanese faster packing and firing and the range bonus. You would absolutely dominate in treb wars with a bit of micro, and you would tear through enemy bases. Those two bonuses together would give you hands down the best trebs in the game.

The end of part #1 is where I actually fit with SotL 100%. Even from the start of the video - apart from not knowing 1 or 2 things about the techs. I pretty much lined up right there with his maths & intuitions! Feels nice to be along the right track through thought/just by thinking about it.

I might rank the extra range a bit higher. Used correctly, it can force your opponent to move their trebs farther from cover to attack you which opens the door to more effectively countering them with other units without having to worry as much about castle fire. It also allows you to make your aggressive castle drops more effective either by keeping them further from fire, or by giving your trebs more targets without leaving the cover of your castle. I'm not going to argue that puts them at the top, but I think they might deserve a spot in the top 3.

Finally new vid! 🔥🔥🤍 And interesting topic. :)

I always wondered when having 4 or more trebuchets if its more effective scater them or having as clumped as possible in the context of avoiding fire. A short video about that would be neat.

Simply awesome video

Nerdy question: how do "accuracy" work in general? I understand that x% means that out of 100, x shots are going to land exactly where they're supposed to (that's the obvious part). But what happens with the rest? how far from the intended spot they'll get? Is it just random inside a fixed area? Does it distributes normally? For example: an inaccurate treb shot is equally likely to land 1 tile away than it is to land 3 tiles away?

@youmukonpaku3168

Жыл бұрын

it's a bell curve within two or three tiles of the actual target, and accuracy is also modified by distance. One of SOTL's older videos covers the subject with archers

@Pangui008

Жыл бұрын

@@youmukonpaku3168 oooh, I'm gonna search for that video :)

@IschmarVI

Жыл бұрын

essentially, the unit has a % chance to "hit" the target, making the projectile fly straight at that unit, usually being able to pass through other units (exception to that rule are things like towers and castles). If the shot "misses", it still flies towards its target, but a random variation is added to its trajectory (the "attack dispersion", that is dependent on the unit). Those projectiles can be intercepted by other units and, if that happens, the unit that intercepts the shot gets hit instead. However, as the dispersion is random, the shot can also still hit the intended target, which becomes more likely when shooting at closer targets. Also noteworthy: if a projectile hits a target it wasn't aimed at, it only inflicts half the damage (arambai and units that deal splash damage are the exceptions to this rule). If you are interested in this, in addition to the mentioned SotL video, a guy named T-west has also made videos about projectiles (the one about fire ships is especially interesting imo).

The trebuchet song: "Firing our rocks up all night 'til the sun" "Firing our rocks up all night to get some" "Firing our rocks up all night for good fun" "Firing our rocks up all night to get lucky!"

Another situation where the Tatar Trebs are superior is when you're attacking a walled city, you can force the enemy Trebuchet to either retreat or move outside the wall to hit you.

Huns have a great argument for city destruction. being able to unpack faster adds to your DPS (you have to start the clock as soon as this process starts. Now, this bonus DPS is decreasing the longer your trébuchet fires. And being able to pack faster is also a great defensive bonus and arguably can make you squeeze a last shot before being forced to reposition.

My OCD kicked in at the beginning when the 4th treb was packed.

The thing about tatar trebs is that you can station them behind your castle and still snipe enemy trebs attacking your castle which makes for a more resilient defensive setup.

Japanese Trebs are definitely a lot of fun but they can be annoying too. If you pack up right after you fire, the Treb will be packed before the shot lands and it completely negates the attack, since packed Trebs deal 0 damage. I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that in a different vid a couple years ago, but it's something I have to keep in mind whenever I play the civ.

@runtime2534

Жыл бұрын

This bug was fixed like "Ages of Empires" ago... 😀

In the situations I usually find myself in, the Teutons really shine (against me, I rarely play Teutons). Of course Trebuchets are great at destroying your base and it is reasonable for them to appear after Imperial Age, so to me it's about which Trebuchets are harder to react to. Of course, which other units the enemy bring along with the Trebuchet play a big role here, bigger than the Trebuchet itself, but looking just at the Trebuchet, Teutons are a pain in the ass.

I play tatars pretty often and i'd say that their bonus is quite good when you try to wreck enemy bases. You can look for a hill, put them there and they'll destroy everything with higher hill bonus and longer range. They also have siege engineers, so it feels like you are launching rockets with those trebs

@SIGNOR-G

Жыл бұрын

*Termobaric trabuchets are best trabuchers*

"Best way to deal with castles" Siege Ram: Well thanks for not mentioning me.

Nice video bro

I think it would be worth also comparing how they do vs. bbc, since that is a very common and touch match up for trebs. I think that's where Britons, Japanese, and Tatars get to shine (Huns are not terrible)

I love spirit of the law because the info I get is basically Marcel Vos for AoE, but with the mannerisms of the Lockpicking Lawyer

SotL: "In total, there were 34 percentages brought up in this video... but who's counting?" Also SotL: "I am. I am counting."

Great video, u know whats coming... top 5 bbc! 😎

You should make a trebuchet civ with as many of these bonuses as possible

7:30 I think he's forgetting an important point: When the enemy trebs are already setup, you can then move up your trebs out of reach for them and still kill them. In this case, the win rate is 100% !

I'm glad Ironclad's benefit wasn't missed in this video, Ironclad may not be the best unique tech in the world but it shines in the situations it was meant for

Jap Kataparuto is amazing to play with that it’s a shame its price is so high. They’re about the only civ where the term ‘Treb micro’ is not a joke, whether that be to bail quickly against cannons, or tap a town center after having destroyed a castle from max range.

Hi SOTL! I love the videos! Had an idea for you… best anti-trash unit? In other words, what unit can kill the most hussars, skirmishers, AND halberdiers- performs the best against all three, not weak against any of them? Off the top of my head, I’m thinking Teutonic Knights would be the clear favorite, but who comes in second? Jaguar Warriors, Eagle Warriors, Woad Raiders, Cataphracts, and Berserkers all come to mind.

pretty interesting! i didnt think saracens bonus were that good, can we see a ranking on the siege onager civs next?

Hey SotL, thanks for the vid. Did you take into account how much a civ leans on its UU for how good their Trebs are? For instance, Saracens probably make Mamelukes more often than Celts make Woads; does the fact that they are competing for Castle time affect this placement?

@ricflairsayswooo2457

Жыл бұрын

If you take stuff like that into account then things starts to get complicated, because Mamelukes are also quite good at potentially sniping trebuchets with their ranged melee damage. So the Saracen player builds fewer trebuchets but might kill two enemy ones in exchange. If you start digging too deeply into specific civs/situations then the maths can quickly become convoluted or impossible.

I would say your ranking of treb war trebs was a tad inaccurate, as one, usually the most important part of treb wars is taking out an opponents castle, that is the main goal in most cases. So the faster attack speed of Japanese and Celts would be more important than you portrayed, as would the extra attack of saracens. Also, the tartars bonus is more important than you portray as having the range of trebs increased allows you to put your castles farther out of range of the enemies castles, so your trebs are protected during the treb war, and your opponents are not. So the tartars can more easily kill the opponents trebs with other units.

@vago1996porlaputa

Жыл бұрын

Tell me you stopped mid video to comment without telling me you stopped mid video to comment

I need more %s SotL. MORE!

I think tatar trebs are really annoying. Imagine you start attacking a tartar castle and suddenly there are tartar trebs that start hitting you from behind the castle. You can either ignore them or if you decide to attack them you need to pack move unpack into an area with a higher chance of getting hit by castle fire.

AoE dev math: A regular treb has 15 % accuracy. A Hun treb has 50 % accuracy. Therefore a Hun treb is 15/50=0.3=30% more accurate. Makes total sense to me.

@dj_koen1265

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Except that it doesn’t make any sense at al lol

Yeah the additional 30% accuracy with the Huns makes a massive difference in treb wars. Don't remember who played, but two pros had treb wars going on for around half the game and if I remember correctly the Hun player lost 2-3 trebs and the other player lost 10 or so.

I feel Mongol super fast moving trebs should be included. You can reinforce position faster, synergize so well with cavalry and basically destroy the map faster

Perfect

I think for clearing out buildings (though would be a bit hard to quantify) Tatars don't seem so bad. Their extra range could mean clearing out an extra few buildings before needing to re-pack and unpack. Similarly, often you're going into a treb war where the enemy already has started firing on you. Tatar's further range could mean that the enemy would need to re-package and then unpackage before starting the treb war (not sure if maybe even the range could be enough to make castle fire a concern) but yes situational but a situation that can very well happen.

You pronounce Huns as Hans. I feel honored

Great video!! It generated a question for me though: in a map like Arena, where there are walls protecting the trebs from enemy melee units and me or the other player castle drops and we arrive at Imperial at the same time, I usually target the enemy's castle instead of their trebs since I figure that taking out the production building is more important than trying to kills their trebs, but maybe I should be targeting their trebs first? Gonna try that on future games to see the results

While I agree with everyone else with Tatar trebs being the best. There is another element to the +2 range that people don't think about. If you set up say 5 trebs to fire at an enemy, and they move their trebs to fire at yours. Any additional trebs can move right behind your current ones and unpack, the enemy needs to either move their trebs in front of their current unpacked ones or to the side. Producing additional ones while being sieged contributes to this situation here

You're the best

For the Tatars, the extra range has the advantage making it easier to protect your trebuchets with your castle and other units against the opponent's units.

the tatar +2 range dont do a lot in duel but it does a LOT for covering an extremly vide aria letting you spend less time on packing them upp/down. there is also a rather neche application vere your ennemy is just behind a wall and thus cant move foreward (without deleting the wall)

It's hard to make Portuguese top tier in something with a so generic purpose bonus as gold discount. That makes them awesome for spamming gold units much easier, but that is basically all they have. I believe they should add something like increase accuracy for gunpowder units, or the hand cannoner in castle age for them, or more of an early game bonus. They can only shine in long games and water maps

I'm not sure I'd discount the Tatars hill and especially range bonus as much as you do. A treb war is never _just_ a treb war; there's always other things going on. You're trying to assault a position, or fight off a push, or overcome a choke point, or secure resources, etc. Position in a treb war is about half the fight there, and having more range as well as a greater hill bonus means you've got a lot more wiggle room when it comes to that. It may give you just enough room to wall them off, or the time you need to intercept a cavalry charge against you, or force enemy units into a disadvantageous spot if they want to threaten your trebuchets.

Always was intrigued Japan had a notable tech for trebuchets when Japanese sieges generally didn't rely heavily upon them. Indeed, Japan really never invested much in siege weaponry in general, so why the game gives them such a competitive tech tree is interesting. Japanese sieges were generally defined by intelligent use of manpower, rather than engineering, to assault castles if they bothered to at all. Indeed, Japanese assault techniques were highly innovative, particularly the common use of disciplined volleys by archers and arquebusiers to suppress defenders while infantry moved up to the walls.

I think you are underrating just how good the Tatar's +2 range is in practice. You could make the case for Britons or Huns, but I put them above everyone else.

I thought the main advantage of Tatar trebs was the ability to unpack outside the range of an enemy's unpacked trebs and still pose a threat.

I think the extra range helps when your opponent is already set up because then you can set up your trebs out of his range and get many free shots if he is not paying attention.

I can tell you that at least 9.2% of us are keeping track of how many percentages you mention in each video

I truly love trebuchets man have they saved me with units protecting them from fire when counter attacking I usually use Celts tho

The big benefit of the Tatar’s treb bonus is that they can fire from a safer position then their opponents who have to come out in front of their castle with their trebs.

In pro games trebs always never target other trebs in the treb wars. In general trebuches just focuses on the castle and once enemy castle is down then trebs are cleaned up with regular military. Treb on treb action seems to actually be quite rare in my experiance. You should research scenarios where 2 castles are outside each others range and start producing trebuches at the same time and see what is the optimal strategy. Hit the castle or hit the trebs, and which civilization come on top with different strategies. I'd wager that for everything expect huns and briton hitting the castle is the optiomal strategy.

@valger3652

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Well, it depends on many factors, but in trebs hit castle scenario usually it ends with trade castles, bc almost impossible to outrepair damage from 3 trebs ( need 21+ vil for repair , also it costs almost 1 casle per min repairing). So if player wants to win castle war - he have to hit trebs instead of castle. Standart gameplay for treb war - is just make trebs , when player reach imp. Extra resourses spent for army, blacksmith etc. UT later on, if needed. But britons can think about making Warwolf first - for hitting enemy treb/bbc. Warwolf trebs also can be used as bbc vs enemy units. With portuguese it's fine to research conscription first - 3rd treb will come slightly faster, also in case castle goes down - no need to build new for unit production speed.

Is there already a comparison of siege units overall? It would be interesting to me to compare the different Treb output to say bombard cannons in treb wars or rams in tearing down buildings. Ofc. the treb has a unique advantage of staying relatively safe at range, but rams have higher damage output, lower cost, and are easier to mass. But maybe some Civ bonuses make a difference in the decision to invest into trebs vs. other units.

The 2 extea range for Tatars should not be underestimated. Think about what that gets you in terms of castle/treb wars. You get extra space to protect your trebs (especially from bombards) while possibly firing on you opponent's trebs. Plus, if theyre looking to hit your trebs, they have to be closer, thus possibly overextending and exposing their trebs. Furthermore, youre able to snipe more buildings from further away. It gives you more flexibility and can destroy more within your range without having to pack and unpack That being said, go britions!

I think the Tatars +2 range is being underrated. It might not be useful or even relevent in the vaccum of Treb vs Treb or Treb vs Building, but it means they can stay 2 tiles further away, making them easier to defend against everything. Easier to keep in range of your own castle(s), too. I see it more defensive, like the Teutons bonus.

I feel like these rankings just glossed over other (admittedly not as important and far more rare) use cases. Like firing against enemy army hordes where things like Britons splash and some other effects like the Saracen additional damage may change those cases somewhat.

Should have mentioned that Japanese tres pack and unpack so fast that they can get unpack before your shot lands, which can have the side effect of only doing 1 damage against buildings...

@klauskonig7981

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If I recall correctly this is not a thing in DE anymore, just like trebs doing 1 point of damage when they get killed while their thrown rock is mid-air, but definetly was a problem in older game versions. ^^'

Japanese and Mongols on the same team would make a good combo. Fast packing trebs from the Japanese with their faster attacking infantry to counter calvalry, Mongols with their insanely fast rams and other seige with the dreaded mangudai and hussars being useful as damage dealing meat shields. Just too good!

Let’s say I tell Brition’s trebuchet to target next to a building(s). How much does the splash damage affect it?

Also, I hope new civs are revealed during Red Bull Wololo. Hoping for Swiss and Danes.

I recently got back into Age of Empires 2 HD and ive been struggling with effectively managing my stuff in terms of raiding and economy. Do you happen to have a discord where I can get in touch with others and maybe you so I can better understand the game mechanics?