"We are the custodians of life's meaning . . . and if we crave a cosmic purpose than we had better find ourselves a worthy goal." -Carl Sagan

@Moshe_Dayan44

6 жыл бұрын

I utterly agree with Carl Sagan here. Judaism actually argues that it is up to us to be the custodians of 'meaning'. That is why the response to the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai is: "We shall DO, and we shall listen," rather than "We shall listen, and we shall do." The response of the Israelites in the Torah to the offering of the Covenant with G-d implicitly recognizes that fundamental or profound meaning is often only discover-able or understandable through doing. It's somewhat congruent with the expression: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I DO and I understand."

@GB-ml2pl

2 жыл бұрын

@@Moshe_Dayan44 true, after passing the Red Sea with millions of people witnessing, was east to say we shall do & then we’ll listen why we needed to do that. Those days, very hard to keep the faith after erev rav did a “brilliant job by “divide and conquer” religions in religion, breaking the family cell / feminism extra … But evil don’t hold water for ever, same as Nachshon Ben aminadav which continue walking up until the water reached his nose / only then G@d open the sea for the Jewish people to pass through. Also with Babylon, last floor, just before they “connected the power” G@d changed the languages & miss communication led to where we are now, as a VERY WISE PERSON SAID by the name Ecclesiastes “What was is what will be and what is done is what he will do and there is nothing new under the sun” What we seeing now with the Philanthropists that trying to play G@d & playing with his children DNA … no no no , we are very close to G@ds grand finale 3 time (definitely) lucky! So f ok r the ones who actually still think that Biden, trump, China or anyone else will save us, I highly recommend to check your TIME SPENDING, Reality shows & such, is really really missing the reality, that was swiped under our feet, so no much time left, hope you get the point/message/moral of the comment 😔😔😔

We, as humans, assign meaning TO things. Meaning is not a characteristic of any physical thing or systems. Meaning is a property of our minds.

@codedlogic

3 жыл бұрын

David Israel - Well I think in a lot of ways we don’t all value the same things. For example, things of “sentimental value.” But as far as social values I don’t think anyone is surprised that a highly advanced social species would have a complex set of social values. It’s in everyone’s interest for the tribe to succeed and flourish. And people who didn’t value the tribe were removed from the gene pool.

@codedlogic

3 жыл бұрын

@David Israel Respectfully, I think you may be oversimplifying what's going on. I say this because, even with your example of sex, there is no consensus on meaning. For some people, reproduction is the only purpose of sex. For others, it's a sign of love and affection. For others, its deeply symbolic of a once in a lifetime connection or commitment. And for some it's just a casual good time. We could say we only have sex to procreate - but that's demonstrably false. But, human to human, the thing I hope I can convey to you is the following: there are real scientific explanations for why humans behave the way they do - both individually and as a species. There are entire disciplines dedicated to scrutinizing and answering the questions that your proposing. There's no need to appeal to the supernatural or the occult my friend.

@codedlogic

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for taking the time to reply and also thank you for your civility. I'm enjoying this conversation with you. If I'm understanding you correctly, the point you're making is that sex has an objective meaning therefore meaning can be intrinsic. And this, to me at least to this point, seems to be just an assertion. I don't really see a case for believing that sex has an objective meaning. We can certainly talk about "HOW" sex happens. We can even talk about "WHY" various sex happens. But I don't really see anything that gets us to saying that there is a "target / absolute goal / objective meaning" with regards to sex. But if there is a good argument I'd definitely like to hear it.

@codedlogic

3 жыл бұрын

@David Israel Well I certainly agree the Earth is objectively a sphere. But all things in regards to "intention", "meaning", "purpose", etc. aren't objective. Rather, they are subjective. For example, even if we found out there was a creator god the "purpose" or "meaning" of the Universe would still be subjective and applied by the god to the Universe. I can build a boat with the purpose of getting across a lake. But the purpose of the boat comes from me. Not from the boat. And the boat could be repurposed in the future. The same is true of a god. Even if a god were capable of building a universe, their intentions for that universe would NOT be intrinsic or objective. Rather, the purpose would still be the subjective preference of the being independent of any creation.

"Humans are meaning seeking animals" - Totally agree and I have no God. Atheism is not the complete denial of meaning - its the denial of God. A very basic misunderstanding.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

True atheism has no complexity it is just denial.

@AbandonedVoid

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 Don't tell other people that they believe things they don't. It won't be very convincing to them and it will make anyone that's paying attention think you're a fool. You also just combined a Straw Man with a No True Scotsman, so, there's that, too.

@jonserrander3735

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on

Rabbi Sacks was a great man. Smart, spiritual, eloquent, elegant. I revere his memory.

I think he makes a lot of sense. We are special even from a purely anthropology point of view. He talks about seeking what is outside of what we see and is doing so without damning anyone. Spirituality is more than what we perceive. Trying to do so would be like trying to hear with your eyes. Thumbs up rabbi :)

@danatonimovies2321

Жыл бұрын

Science is more than we can see and provable a quality that every religion hasn´t got.

Very well said in a very logical argument only a fool and an ignorant person will not understand

@the_alpha_not_male

Жыл бұрын

Sooo... religious person...

People can argue and counter argue, this way we have free choice what to believe. We can give people information and evidence to support our beliefs, but it's up to the person to decide whether or not to accept it. We need both logic and faith.

@danatonimovies2321

Жыл бұрын

No science is not just accepting a belief it is demostrating that it works and can be repeated. So far noone have been brought back from the dead. Religion is maybe interesting stories culturally thats it.

"[T]he meaning of a system always lies outside" Not only I'm the owner of a system, I'm also inside it. Does that mean that I cannot assign meaning to my own system?

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

You question hits square on the fallacy this guy's putting forward. He's equivocating the concept of whether we can assign meaning to the universe, to the concept of whether we can have meaning for ourselves. And that's granting the validity of his proposition that the meaning of a system must derive from something outside the system, which he doesn't successfully establish anyway. Both the Martian and the chess examples can be said to establish the idea that meaning is the product of a mind. There is no concept of meaning independent from mind. Whether the mind is inside or outside the thing it's assigning meaning to is irrelevant. He just chose examples that served his specious little purpose. I can absolutely assign or create meaning for my own life even though I'm inside that life. I can also assign a meaning to the Universe. Is that meaning true or false? Meaning is not an objective phenomenon that can have a true/false determination like the true/false determination of whether a certain type of teapot is found on the top floor of the Empire State building. Meaning is the value that a mind puts on something. If I determine a meaning for something, then that thing has that meaning for me and whoever agrees with me. The pompous little disquisition we heard in this video, is just one more theistic attempt to establish the existence of God. "The universe can't have meaning without God." That's malarkey. But even if it were true it wouldn't establish the existence of God.

@AbandonedVoid

2 жыл бұрын

@@donnievance1942 Well put

@paulsurbitonryan9632

2 жыл бұрын

It sounds as if meaning whether it is about yourself, the system you are in or the structure that is outside of that system, is entirely dependent upon and determined by yourself. That is a philosophy that points towards subjective realism. The problem with this is that every individual will have either a similar view to yourself or an opposite one and in your world that, too, is perfectly valid. We will, in your world, never be able to establish facts or certainties and that would be the death of all education. Now that would be a meaningless universe.

@paulsurbitonryan9632

2 жыл бұрын

He hardly mentioned God in his rhetoric and yet he speaks not only as a rabbi but as one who lectured in philosophy. His argument is watertight.

@paulsurbitonryan9632

2 жыл бұрын

You are right. We can impose meaning upon teapots on the tops of Empire State buildings but those meanings will always be subjective. Until you attain that universal position of omniscience, then your views will always be open to scrutiny.

R.i.P

this is great

It's called a mind. Saying "outside the system" is all well and good if you want to be ambiguous to retain your religiosity... But no. The meaning ISN'T innate to the objects, it isn't innate to ANY objects, not just objects "outside the system". Why just throw out an analogy without a care for how it works and why? If he had simply given a few more seconds of thought to it... But ah, then he couldn't protect his religious view.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

No then you misunderstand true atheism. Atheism argues no meaning in a purposeless universe in a meaningless system where murder is not bad it is a choice because God doesn't exist eating babies is just something to do, you have to borrow from a religious world view to think those things are bad. Atheism is embracing chaos, you can't have a moral compass because you just want to there would be no justification. That's why so many atheist don't think all the way through they just deny religion that is all but use religious world views to live their lives.

Brilliant as always.

Here's a questions, are faith heads like the rabbi here genuinely unaware of the logical fallacies they are committing, or are they just dishonest with an ends justify the means mentality?

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

The same could be said for the opposite view, are you purposefully seeking chaos, or meaningless life? Eating babies is meaningless it is not right or wrong? Logic would save you from that decision? Why? There are cannibals that would disagree are they wrong or is your logic right? Is everything you think right? Do you think logic is the new replacement for God? Who's logic?

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 Your hyper and frantic interrogatory does not reflect the view of anyone in these comments, so there's no reason for us to address it.

@cash5512

Жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 Do you know how big the universe is? Actually thinking that you mean something, while being so small, is just plain ignorance or wishful thinking.

His argument appears to argue for atheism, not against it. If "the meaning of the universe is found outside of the system", then the various religions in this world can't explain it. Atheism is the rejection of these religions, while acknowledging there may be meaning we don't fully understand.

@darrylelam256

6 жыл бұрын

Tomato Pa Well the world's leading scientists would disagree with you. It is a lazy person that quickly looks at something and thinks 'it's must be designed' without actually looking into it. The fact is that when you actually look into the claims made by creationists who say that the universe must be designed, you see that no designer would ever design the thing that we find.

@alvarojneto

5 жыл бұрын

They doesn't follow. A chess player can explain the meaning of chess, even though there is no chess game without chess players.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

No then you misunderstand true atheism. Atheism argues no meaning in a purposeless universe in a meaningless system where murder is not bad it is a choice because God doesn't exist eating babies is just something to do, you have to borrow from a religious world view to think those things are bad. Atheism is embracing chaos, you can't have a moral compass because you just want to there would be no justification. That's why so many atheist don't think all the way through they just deny religion that is all but use religious world views to live their lives.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 Cut and pasting your BS now, huh?

@archon88 True. I think we try to find meaning even in things which have no meaning or patterns (such as stock charts) this has been proven time and again. It's just our nature we feel stronger and more confident when we can attach meaning to things.

I'm mindblown

If 'meaning' is always external to the 'system', then presumably an omnipresent God must be meaningless. Welcome to atheism, Rabbi Sacks.

He Is so clear

I have never heard the problem and the solution and why atheism can never be the solution, expressed so clearly, simply and effectively as this. Rabbi Jonathan is one of the truly great men of our time. We will never see the like of this kind of wisdom again.

a good case example would be the fact that; debating originated in Greek courts Iraqis and other Arabs refer to Iranian as Ajam(mute) the Hebrew Bible might hint about this(if so that is a clear example of God teaching us about Genetic differences)

There isn't any deceit in his opening sentence, you're being too marrow minded and not fully listening to what he is saying and addressing. And whilst you may choose to seek truth as you put it, the reason you are seeking truth is because you are attempting to give meaning to that around you. That's the point. And just because someone seeks meaning, doesn't mean they aren't seeking the truth. Vice versa as well.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

Very well said.

Like all religious apologists, he pretends to believe in a principle, but once that principle gets him to where he wants to go, he drops it. Religiosos will argue that everything must have a cause, but once that principle conveys them to god, suddenly it is not a principle anymore. God is acausal. And so here. If this rabbi thinks that "the meaning of anything lies outside that thing", he will use this to get to god, but will not ask what the meaning of god is. It is intellectual dishonesty. Of course, the principle itself is such complete nonsense that I don't know how anyone can even pretend to believe it. People's lives are full of meaning - their families, their work, the things they love to do - that do not in any way imply or refer to a god. . Does he actually think that, let us say, an atheist composer, such as Brahms, spent his life practicing an art that had no meaning for him? This guy's mind is like a tabula rasa - a blank slate, a mind before it begins receiving impressions, a mind whose operations are not even remotely connected with reality.

@Moshe_Dayan44

6 жыл бұрын

Sacks is not 'refusing' to ask what the meaning of G-d is. He's simply not discussing that subject in this video. Judaism is partly a 3,000 year old exploration of the 'meaning' of G-d. It's not a question Jews shy away from: on the contrary, it's a major component of 3,000 years of continuous dialogue amongst scholars!

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

Sacks chooses to leave the question of God's meaning out of the argument because he has no way to answer it in terms of his own (unsound) premise that all the meaning of a system lies outside the system. That premise, derived from the cherry-picked Martian/credit card and chess game examples, is quickly defeated by a simple counter example: the meaning of a touch football game is found WITHIN the minds of the people playing WITHIN the game. Don't come back with some semantic re-interpretation. Sacks' whole disquisition is just a bunch of dumbass wordplay anyway. The actual question is an empirical one: Do people without a belief in God have meaning in their lives? Answer: Yes, they do- most of them anyway. Here's another empirical question: Does God exist? Answer: There is insufficient evidence to believe that he does. Question: Is human meaning contingent on the existence of God? Answer: QED from the answers above-- no, it is not. Denial that meaning exists in the minds of non-God-believers is a denial of the only incorrigible (or perhaps absolute) knowledge admitted in epistemology-- the knowledge of our own internal psychic state. "Meaning," in terms of this discussion, means only this: the value and purpose placed on something by a human mind. The rabbi's little argument is on a par with stuff you can hear in any bar on a Saturday night. "Hold my beer. I'm gonna prove that people should believe in God so that they can have meaning in their lives." But here's another question-- If God doesn't exist, could the Universe become meaningful by people making him up? If anyone thinks so, their understanding of the word "meaningful" is applicable to any lie one wishes to believe. And it would be a meaning established within the system of the Universe.

The Rabbi's proposition is the perfect argument *for* Atheism, not against it. There is nothing outside the "God System," as proposed. Atheism, with its embrace of skepticism and the unknown, puts most of the Universe outside our system of knowledge. Atheists suggest that the meaning of life is to learn, create and live the life unknown.

I like this man. Well spoken, takes care of his appearence and comes up with very well, very thought arguments.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

He comes up with "very well, very thought arguments?" I kind of agree. In a way.

@danatonimovies2321

Жыл бұрын

He´s an absolute charlatan posing as wise.

brilliant

Simply brilliant.

Does there necessarily have to be meaning in existence.

"his argument doesn't work when he says the meaning of the universe lies outside the universe, therefor god exist" he did not say that.

Brilliant. So satisfying. Thank you, Rabbi. Also, notice that all living creatures inherently behave as if they have meaning in their existence. It may be that we as humans are the only creatures that question it.

The system of paying with a credit card is not the credit card, and the system of chess is not the board and it's peaces. So, the system is not just its material components, but the interactions that are habening because of teh system. And these interactions have only meaning in the context of that system, hence the meaning always lies withing a given system, and thus the meaning of the universe would also to be within it... at least if it would have been designed with an intention, like we have made credit cards and chess. But it seems like their is no intention in the systems of the universe, so there is only meaning when we give things meaning.

If a creditcard has no meaning but only has some usage for some users, what then, by analogy, is outside the universe? A user? Another problem with this argument is the axiom that man is a meaning seeking animal. Maybe man is a power seeking animal and (mis-)uses the vague (according to some philosophers even empty) concept of 'meaning' to impress people and thus gain power. It's nog the stance I take on, but this argument is so poor that I'd rather be an atheist than a believer in a primary Deity.

I see a lot of equivocations here. The credit card or the chess board are not the 'system' in question, they are parts of systems, the credit system and chess respectively. The credit card has no inherent meaning, but it has meaning applied to it by intellect. There is no conflict between an inherently meaningless universe and having meaning subjectively applied by intelligent agents within that universe, My reply to the rabbi would be why he thinks the universe needs external meaning.

"Atheism cannot answer the meaning of the universe and without meaning we less then human" Interesting point, but he fails to answer why should there be meaning in the universe. What is the meaning of the planet earth, a mountain, a tree? The reason that things like money and chess have meaning is because they are entirely human creations. Human creates and imposes meaning in their creation, the whole concept of meaning exist entirely within the human realm. Natural objects that exists outside of human thinking and creation does not have to have meaning.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

Yes but he is saying it has, and is right in saying so, it has been that way for thousands of years. You propose what it could be. But would it be better? No because then others who want you dead would have claim that there purpose has a greater claim than yours.

@ironmantis25

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 This comment is 7 years old, my opinion on this subject has changed considerably since then.

@donventi3567

Жыл бұрын

​@@ironmantis25 what are your views now

this Rabbi dropped a neurological splinter on people's heads which is dismantling them with this little proposition of his.

If this is one of the greatest Jewish scholars, it certainly helps calibrate that religion.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

True. I've heard more competent arguments from drunks.

And the system is our minds

@TheJamesHorn If someone is principally seeking meaning, they are biasing themselves against reliably discerning truth. Not a single religion seems to spend any energy on wondering whether perhaps the universe is meaningless, they're far more interested in making everything about us- because we're so "special". Until they abandon this narcissism, they'll continue to fall further behind the sciences when it comes to any matter of truth.

🌷🌷

Arrogance is not acceptable, but in order to shape the world for good and in order to offer hope to the worlds problems we need to start of with the fact that humanity does make a difference. Saying the world was created for man should be understood to mean that we have enormous responsibility. Without that sort of "pedastol" we can't be held responsible for the damage we do indeed cause to the environment.

If the "meaning of the universe is outside the universe" then he is redefining the word "universe" to be an incomplete "everything we know of." Now, Rabbi, what if the nature of humanity is to seek meaning in ways that can never be verified so that "authoritays" like yourself can make money from people who seek meaning, in other words by providing knowledge that is sound and fury? That would make more sense and conform with our observations.

@exchangeisno right on

@exchangeisno What is the truth of blue? No, I didn't ask you what the physical properties of blue are - what its wavelength is etc. - I asked you, what is the truth of blue? The meaning of blue is very simple. It exists to allow us to differentiate between objects, just like other colors. That's why it exists.

heres a good comparison between an Aryanid(majority for Jews being Levites) and an Arabid(majority of Jews being Cohens) - the Arabid; he stutters only because his brain works alot faster that even his mouth cannot keep up, his linguistic ability has to keep up with the rapidity of his thoughts/thinking speed, he is more eager to say things when he stumbles its usually regarding religion or rhyme words

So to understand the meaning of religion you need to understand that the reason lies outside religion : either in the wider field of fairytales and fiction.. Since god lies inside religion: you have to look outside religion to realise where the concept was made up from.

"The argument doesn't work." why not? "Yes the meaning of a credit card lies in economics, but what of the meaning of economics? or the system that gives meaning to that?" the rabbi dealt with economics, he dealt with meaning, he dealt with system. "What gives meaning to "God" " no one "gives meaning to God". the rabbi never said anything as ridiculous as that. he was talking about life. And how worshipping God means a purposeful life. You missed his point? I don't blame you.

Is God a meaning seeking being? Good damn atheists with their circular questioning!

Explains to god botherers very well, but not from an athiest perspective - there doesn't need to be a meaning of life (apart from for Monty Python fans) . There's no reason we can't just 'be' - we live as we do because of evolution then we die, but things carry on evolving. No god belief needed.

2 parts, this is in assumption that the universe has intrinsic meaning, but worse, that anything does let's take the credit card. you used it to get food, to enjoy and to survive, in order to? the chess game: you played it to enjoy and learn stuff and use your brain and compete in order to become more capable then you were yesterday so that you? really, meaning is a concept we humans both invented, and desperetly need. unlike any other creature, humans need meaning, the very thing we can not get without an outside source. it is a tragedy really, but does it mean it is false?

The debate of faith in all aspects is a near useless debate. It takes the changing of the person's heart to disuade them of their faith. And so, whether saying a theist is correct or an atheist is correct will always be incorrect so long as neither have the answer.

@exchangeisno deceitful? what's your proof of that? That's slanderous and you've just blown away what was other than that an intelligent post.

Unless you can prove the Creator any debate about him, serves no purpose

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

Unless you can prove there is no creator then a debate is not necessary.

Praise You Tube! You can have a conversation over months, because the words never are lost. There's a deep meaning in that :>). My friend, fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly. Humans have to seek pattern and meaning. the day we stop asking "What is good, and why does evil happen? Where do I come from and why am I here?" is the day we become less than beasts, we become machines. You may ask "What's wrong with being a beast?" The answer is nothing...if your a beast! We are more. We have souls.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

Well said! 💯

@chodeshadar18

2 жыл бұрын

@@janeleen7 thank you Ms A!

Straw arguments - namely the assertion that the meaning of all systems lie outside of the systems - an Alien would not need to know concepts of human history & morality to understand plastic credit cards carry symbolic meaning (and not directly of letting someone else hold a piece of plastic). For if could not understand this, then could not grasp that words are symbolic of the object or action that the noun/verb (etc) represents. Any alien coming here will have developped language to communicate ideas with its fellow kind, and cooperate in the development of interstellar travel engineering - a plastic credit card obtaining goods would not seem "magical stuff" - and how crass an arguement to suggest so. I don't need to know meaning of the carpenter who makes a chair, the chair has meaning of itself (I sit on it if I need to), and does not directly infer that all that I sit on must have been created specifically for myself, anymore than that a convenient boulder has been placed on a beach uniquely and personally for me to sit on. The supposed need to have a purpose, shows we are but frightened animals unable to extistentially think about the physical world that has no underlying meaning other than understanding of the underlying physics/chemistry etc

@Moshe_Dayan44

6 жыл бұрын

He was merely giving an easily understandable analogy. The basic question might be: "So, what's outside the boundaries of the universe?" to which the intelligent answer would be "We don't know, and we may never know." G-d is essentially that which is outside THAT boundary.

@dpax2195

5 жыл бұрын

Greg Laxton Why would no one believe me if I told them Neverland is real? The looks I would get are the exact same way I already see Christians, Muslims, Hindus (yes yes, I know...YOUR belief is the right one, though) etc.

I've never heard an anthopologist (like Desmond Morris who happens to be an atheist) describe humans are "meaning seeking". Pattern Seeking, definitely, but not "meaning seeking". To say "if you take away meaning you take away humanity" is a little silly. I don't know anyone except for religious extremists (who don't really live happy lives) that live life for the soul purpose of worshipping a deity or getting to heaven.

Meaning lies inside our heads. We assign meaning to things, whether one recognizes that or not. Why is this so hard to accept?

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

Who taught you that? Why do you believe that? Is it just inside your head? Because you recognize that? Is it hard to accept that others are religious?

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

Meanings are the products of minds. There is no other meaning to the word "meaning." It's definitional. Meaning is the value that minds place on things. Therefore, meaning exists within the Universe, where there are minds creating meanings. Your duded up rabbi made himself look like a barroom philosophizer.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

Because that can cause millions of sensitive human beings to loose hope and commit suicide, and on the other hand brings to naught the theory of evolution and at the same time contradicts it because if we don't have a purpose most of humanity would perish with the amount of hopelessness there would have been without the knowledge of a God, and that goes against the theory of evolution, or the ''evolving'' of bettering nature and humans.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

But that doesn't matter to you at all because your'e a purposeless meaningless machine after all, why would you care for just another purposeless meaningless machine anyway right? (😂)

ANSWER: THE RABBI IS OUT OF HIMSELF

@raphaelalbert8110

4 жыл бұрын

Or possibly beside himself.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@raphaelalbert8110 What does his Schroedinger wave probability look like?

- the Aryanid; his brain gets blank at certain points so his mouth becomes speechless, he requires more time to think, he babbles when confronted with something that is more than he can handle, he might stammer during conversations, he needs to keep up with the pace of a discussion, he pauses every now and then just to pick up, he gets easily outwitted by an Arabid, he cannot win in a debate against an Arabid(he will usually embarrass himself in such situations)

Claims _the meaning of the system lies outside of the system..._ Then claims that he knows what that meaning is.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

He doesn't know just because he knows.. He knows because that Being that is outside of the system communicated with the world and told him through the bible, so that we may find our true meaning. How was that even possible? Through divine messages and supernatural manifestation.

@jarrod752

2 жыл бұрын

@@janeleen7 Oh how could I forget Yahweh, the trickster antagonist of the bible! Of course the god of _slavery done right_ is being honest about all of it!

So the Martian doesn’t understand so uses magic to explain it - sounds like religion to me. To truly understand you need to know all the complicated details? - sounds like science.

How many times do we get this from "leading" religious thinkers and their deep and fascinating philosophical reasoning. I believe there is a creator no matter what the lack of evidence to support this or evidence disproving this logically leads us to because I like to believe everything has a purpose a "meaning" and I don't wan't to grow up and accept that rational people know that many many many things have no meaning at all.

@Patrick65879

9 жыл бұрын

What is the meaning of you writing this youtube comment?

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

So you believe stuff because you'd like to believe it? That's essentially what you said. You have no commitment to truth as a principle? There is a way to construct meaning without a "creator," by the way. I have a question about how you make yourself believe stuff that you want to believe. Could you decide to believe in the Blue Pixies? How about you believe in the Blue Pixies for half an hour, and then come back to these comments and report on what that was like. The idea that we could just believe stuff at will is disturbing to me. You see, as a child I was taught that that was disingenuous rationalization and one of the hallmarks of dishonesty, and that people who did that did not actually believe what they claimed.

Without a provable God, you might be dissapointed that life has no meaning. Except that which we ourselves give it. If you imagine a God in order to give your life meaning, great. That’s what your God is: your imagination. To all us rational thinkers, life is what we make it. Many things give me happiness, and gaining happiness is the meaning of my life. To gain happiness, I: Have children. Eat. Play. Excercise. Read. Think. Hunt. Work. Socialize. etc, etc. Meaning? To be alive. That’s the meaning. NOT what your unreachable imaginary God says.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

Your lack of a God is an imagination too, and your morals if you have any are borrowed from religious views. rationality is just a word with what you think being logical. But what is rational to you without a higher law or power would only mean something to your group. Others might see your thoughts of logic wrong and harmful and need to be eliminated that's why you can't place so much importance on a man's thought's because then it is just a contest of who's thoughts are superior or ultimately right.

@exchangeisno. You cannot argue against truth. Truth is truth regardless of what one believes. Both theists and atheists seek truth. They just appear to disagree on what is or is not true. Water is wet is a true statement, but all you are doing is stating an attribute of water. What is the meaning of blue? Blue does not have a meaning. The question is why did you paint your room blue? If you seek truth ask the right question, or every answer will be 42.

Humans are meaning seekers; I look at the arguments for God and see no meaning in them, so I move onto real philosophy and science.

So religion knows that the meaning of the universe lies outside of the universe yet like atheists they don't actually know what that meaning is they only have guesses and words of ambiguous individuals from centuries ago who used to believe the world was flat. While scientists 'work' to find this meaning religion will sit here and continue to believe in a meaning that was 'given' to them. Is this meaning about worshiping something youve never met before helping those who need help by any chance?

Jonathan Sacks what a convoluted fluff response.

We all struggle to live authentically. As an Atheist I consider my non belief in God part of my struggle to live authentically. I understand this is a point of view and believers consider their point of view one they consider gives their life meaning. To accuse people who have a different point of view of not having a meaning to life is intolerant and arrogant. I find nothing inspiring about the introduction of this Rabbi's response to Atheism. It is a failure on Rabbi Sacks' behalf to understanding my beliefs and identity. The only place I have ever seen God is in some other peoples' beliefs. For this reason I believe, beyond reasonable doubt, there is no God. I do not identify with an ideology. I identify with empiricism. I base my beliefs on what I observe and realize those beliefs are a matter of probability. Not certainty. I have no difficulty understanding believers use their belief in God providing meaning to their lives. I would not accuse them of not struggling for meaning. Their source of meaning does not work for me. I have found meaning through a different point of view. One Rabbi Sacks seems incapable of perceiving or respecting.

@proudpharisee5303

2 жыл бұрын

“I identify with empiricism”. Really? I challenge the honesty of that statement. Nobody lives in a world where everything they do is based on empirical proof. I go to a certain pizza shop based on a friend’s recommendation that the pizza is amazing. Do I have empirical evidence? No. But it is still rational to trust my friend. Theists and atheists live on the question of rationality. Is it rational to believe that God exists. Personally, I believe it is irrational to not believe that God exists, but that’s just me. Many people claim to live strictly within empiricism - but only regarding the question of God!

@liveloverapandhiphop what in the world are you on about?

✨⚡💚🕊🌿 🌿🕊💚⚡✨

The meaning of existence resides within ourselves. We contain what is within our deepest subjectivity. If probed deeply enough we discover who we are.

I could make the exact same argument for the opposite: If you are playing football the players know the meaning of the game and they are inside the field so the maning of a system can be inside the system and be decided by the people involved

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

You are correct. This bozo just chose examples in which the meaning of the system lies outside the system. We could choose any number of counter examples. Meaning is produced by minds. Those minds can be inside or outside the systems they give meaning to. This sententious discourse from a guy duded up in formal wear, enunciating in such a high toned manner, and backed by the hollow title of rabbi is just as lacking in intellectual dignity as any drunken spouting in a dive saloon. His premise that meaning only can lie outside a system is derived by an invalid inference from two petty for-the-purpose examples, the credit card and chess anecdotes. On top of that, whether or not the Universe has a meaning does not speak to whether or not God exists. A god could rule over either a meaningful or meaningless Universe. I rule over my wheelbarrow. Does my wheel barrow have a meaning in any transcendent sense? No. There are myriad transient purposes I put it to, but it has no "meaning." On the other side, the Universe has a meaning to the extent to which minds INSIDE it give it a meaning. The pretentious BS discourse in this video should embarrass this rabbi's fellow religionists.

@AbandonedVoid

2 жыл бұрын

Well, no. The video's argument is an equivocation for sure, but he already gave examples of people ascribing meaning to the system that they're a part of. His point is that the meaning given to it originates from outside of the system, like how the game of football is also about broader narratives of athletic conquest, or the players wanting to get their paychecks or get famous, all of which don't include football. It's about "believing in something bigger than oneself." The problem is, you know, you can also find meaning in the game for its own sake, or the thing bigger than yourself doesn't have to be literally outside of the universe.

@therollingreviewer6379

2 жыл бұрын

Here's my view. The meaning is only made by a human with a mind.

@ArjunLSen

Жыл бұрын

You misunderstood completely. Wake up, dude. A Martian watching football wouldn't understand the point of a game without any practical objective whatsoever and yet aroused so much emotional.energy. The meaning of the game lies OUTSIDE IT'S OBSERVED PROPERTIES AND PROCESS. (Sigh!)

@exchangeisno is there an operative side to that truth? In other words, waht will you DO with that truth? Because it will demand some kind of finality, of role even. It will have a MEANING in your life. Therefore you are never out of the meaning seeking telos. You are being deceitful as well when you try to convince yourself and others that the human experience is robotic, an experience of a binary constraint with no other nuances.

The obnoxious ending to your comment sums up the "common good" you aspire to.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

Is he obnoxious because he thinks different? Or because millions before have agreed? Because you think different?

@manchester-qj9gp

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 My apologies, it was 8 years ago I wrote this and from my view there is no indication what my post was in response to.

The first analogy is just so bad. The card is not the system, the card is only a small part of a larger system and i doubt any terrestrial smart enough to travel through space would have a hard time understanding bartering, trade, currency etc.

G-d bless you...

My screen has stopped moving and turned black and silent hours ago. I wonder when beard guy will make a coherent point. Or start mentioning literally anything at all even remotely related to atheism.

@alancopeland4286

4 жыл бұрын

Bearded man's hypothesis flew over your head faster than the speed of light.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@alancopeland4286 It wasn't an hypothesis. It was a propositional argument containing an unsound premise (that meaning must lie outside any meaningful system) established by faulty inference from two picked-for-the-purpose examples (the Martian/credit card and the chess game.) We could give any number of counter examples: the meaning of an organization is established by the people INSIDE the organization, for one. All these instance fail to notice the only useful idea about the locus of meanings- that meanings exist in MINDS. Whether those minds exist inside or outside the systems they give meaning to is irrelevant. The other embarrassing flaw in his argument is the supposition that establishing whether or not the Universe is meaningful, establishes whether or not God exists. That's a pure, dumbass non sequitur. Most of us atheists find meaning here in the Universe, without any sky daddy to give it to us. We have our own meanings, not somebody or something else's meaning.

it took me quite abit to guess what this (highly possibly) Arabid was thinking. I feel sorry for all the non-Arabids who are struggling to make sense of him. LOL

Just because we seek meaning doesn’t mean everything has meaning in the way we want it to. Reality doesn’t exist to serve us even in most theological frameworks with which I’m familiar. In fact from a theological perspective, the universe is pointless. Any deity that spent the vast resources to create the whole universe only to limit the supposed prized creation, humans, to such a small corner of it, wasn’t creating with meaning and forethought. Literally could have just put earth on an axis in a cosmic box and been done with it. The only meaning it has is the one we ascribe to it in the search to find meaning. It’s philosophical, not religious. But some are more comfortable couching philosophical thought in religious terms. And that’s okay. But you’ve convinced yourself that what works for you is definitively the reality for all the world around you.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

No then you misunderstand true atheism. Atheism argues no meaning in a purposeless universe in a meaningless system where murder is not bad it is a choice because God doesn't exist eating babies is just something to do, you have to borrow from a religious world view to think those things are bad. Atheism is embracing chaos, you can't have a moral compass because you just want to, there would be no justification. That's why so many atheist don't think all the way through they just deny religion that is all but use religious world views to live their lives.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 Thanks for telling us atheists what you think we think. However, being the only person who actually knows what I think, I can definitively state that everything you just said is incorrect. I actually do have a moral compass, for instance. Just because it's based on something you don't understand is irrelevant to whether or not I have it. Atheism is this and only this: the lack of belief that any gods exist. It's not a belief system and doesn't entail anything else you said. A lack of belief in an item is not a belief system. You should take a 101 course in Philosophy. And also a course in English sentence construction.

@janeleen7

2 жыл бұрын

What you wrote was so depressing it can provoke a sensitive soul to commit suicide, and that my friend is a sign that human beings do have meaning, and if we don't, we all perish of hopelessness and the ''theory'' of evolution is brought to naught once in for all..

I am an alcohol-seeking animal. Therefore the universe was created by whiskey...

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

No in that case you seek self destruction, due to the fact your life has had pain, or you wish to forget your past by any means.

@jonahwhale9047

2 жыл бұрын

Funnily enough, as animals we've sought alcohol, in the form of fermenting fruits, for a whole lot longer than god or religion. Watch the videos of our nearest relatives drunk on marula fruits. Having said that, if you wish to follow your path, might I suggest the best parts of the universe were created 18 years ago or more.

@djpokeeffe8019

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 I think you misunderstood me. I was simply pointing out the fallacy in his argument by offering a parallel and manifestly absurd piece of ‘reasoning'.

You can't just call a video a "Response to Atheism." It's like making a "Response to Judaism." Especially one that's under 4 minutes.

@the_alpha_not_male

Жыл бұрын

Yeah Spaicely when he talking about the meaning of the universe, again the answer is NOT must to be God.

Without meaning we are less than human? You have it backwards pal. Plus, atheism is not about whether there is meaning to EVERYTHING. Its about wizards in space.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

I like "wizards in space." I'm stealing it.

How did we get from a game of Chess to the meaning of the universe? You could literally make up any old crap and build it into an effective argument. It’s what all good salesman do.

@villixeb

4 жыл бұрын

Yes!!!! That's it exactly...well phrased!

@elinoamrichter162

3 жыл бұрын

@David Israel perfect example of bullshit. Bring whatever allegory you want, there's no evidence for god. End of story

@elinoamrichter162

3 жыл бұрын

@David Israel that is called an argument from incredulity. It means that because something seems impossible, therefore god. Sorry to tell you, most of israels successes are from secular people who took the time to get an education and could care less about a manmade god and his arbitrary rules

@elinoamrichter162

3 жыл бұрын

@David Israel you need to stay on topic. Where is evidence for god? Why does god have a set of rules that indicate he's a barbaric monster. Also, are you saying the people who made israel into a tech giant are the same people who are corrupt. God didn't do anything, the people did. How do you know god is upset at the educated? How can I trust a thing you say about god. If god isn't happy, why doesn't he go and end it? Don't you see? We've discovered how small we really are, and how powerful god would have to be to actually have any power. If god were to exist, he would be so big he could care fucking less about this simulation of life he put us into, the people who go to an "afterlife" that we specifically don't have any evidence about.

His arguement is flawed. He gave some examples of where his hypothesis held true, then 'deduced' , that it must also hold true for the Universe. In particular, his axiom, of there always being meaning outside a system, was met with just two examples. He didn't prove it in general.

Stars1836 I agree with you! A person can be athiest and still have some logic but only with faith does a person truly try to reach for a higher moral standard as we all have the god given freewill.

But this is a self refuting argument, all of a sudden you have made your god to be meaningless. have a dislike this is not a very good argument for the existance of any god, or a refutation of being an atheist. This was extremely poorly thought out of this rabbi, how come is it so with most religous speakers, poorly made arguments, often self refuting arguments, how are they suppose to impact anyone?

@BF-ow2uy

8 жыл бұрын

+Daniel Lassander He actually makes alot of sense but sadly comes to the wrong conclusion. Listen to the video again and this time imagine that he's making a case for evolution. In fact, he ended up summarizing quite well how systems EVOLVE. A history of human barter and trade giving rise to the credit card sounds more like an evolutionary process rather than an external creator. Having to explain how the history of human conflict gave rise to Chess? Sounds far more like evolution than whatever gibberish he was trying to prove. Replace his concept of 'external meaning' with 'evolutionary sequence of events' and his argument might just start to make more sense.

@Moshe_Dayan44

6 жыл бұрын

He's not arguing to 'prove' the existence of G-d. He's trying to explain how diminished a life without G-d in it will be for a human being.

@noneofyourbusiness153

6 жыл бұрын

A substantial and growing part of the human population, with literally more members than all but the 2 largest religions, is having a perfectly undiminished life without god...

@andrewjohn2124

5 жыл бұрын

A person who was a believer and has had a social support system which makes them happy etc...when they realize it is a lie...sure, their life in a sense will be diminished, however they will now understand reality which may make their life better. The person might think "hey, I only have one life, so I will be as good a human as I can be. I will learn more, I will do more and enjoy life".

@ganuv

5 жыл бұрын

Daniel Lassander it actually is .. it’s just that your concept of what God is this false. First have to define what God is before you discard his argument.

Perfect Rabbi Sacks... Perfect and thank you.

Who said there needs to be a meaning? Maybe we evolved from fish to be here as we are, as science explains?

His logic is corrupt The meaning is inside the system.

انكليزي ده يا مرسي

I don't know if this only applys to me or not, but have a look. The period of my life when I was most concerned about a meaning was the period when I thought a god existed. Since becoming atheist I stopped feeling life REQUIRED a meaning beyond any that I choose myself. BTW, how is a wish to have a meaning for (your) life imposed from outside anything other than the ultimate anti-freedom attitude? If you think maximum freedom for human beings is best, then you should believe one ought to be able to choose his/her own meaning of life and not be penalized for it. Do you love freedom, or do you as Chistopher Hitchens put it "wish to be a slave[?]" And let's not ignore the significance of the fact that the existence of any gods is highly debatable. Even many believers know that. If you're going to center your life around the worship of a god, shouldn't you be solidly and viscerally confident that god exists?

Yeah, we seek meaning and when humans weren't so advance in civilization and science, they created gods to answer the questions they didn't yet know the answer or understand.

Jonathan Sacks has not given a response to atheism. He has engaged in philosophical shenanigans. What does meaning have to do with the so called existence of a god. Like most theists he has given an evasive answer. No evidence has been provided. Belief is one thing and knowledge is another.

Great video.

Gimme a break! What a shitty argument...There is no meaning to "Chess" unless its "to win". And you don't need to be outside the system to conclude that. Also...he doesn't get to assume that everything has meaning.

@Ray-cy3ih

2 жыл бұрын

so how long of a break are you considering to take?

The meaning of reality must lie outside of reality which means the meaning of reality isn’t real. I hate the argument that says “Atheism can’t give meaning so atheism isn’t true”. Well first, atheism never tries to give meaning, it is just a lack of belief in a god. And second, that’s a non-sequitur, even if atheism doesn’t give any meaning, it doesn’t make it any less right. This is 3 and a half minutes of my life that I’ll never get back.

Atheism is not here to answer any questions. Atheism gives you open mind which can lead to answers by science. It may take 100.000 years or more to learn the meaning of universe (if there is one). Religion gives only false and easy explanation for those who desperately want answer here and now. It is very naive to think the creature who invented quantum mechanics created primitive humans to watch their boring (from the perspective of all knowing god) activities. God got nothing better to do than to listen to the super boring prayers which remind him how great he is in case he forgot that fact... And who is praying to him? Super primitive beings (according to god). If any god would exist he probably would create another god on same level of intellect so he could have at least normal conversation. If he dose not need or want a conversation creating us is most stupid idea I ever heard. Imagine for a second that as a human you create ants and watch them what they do... They pray, eat, fight etc. How long you can watch it? In case some ants are doing some sort of things different than you like you are getting mad on them. Some you punish, some you save. Its very stupid idea... The other thing is that looking at history of Jews and how "creator" is taking care of his favorite nation you better pray he will not pick you as his favorite... That`s fact, sorry :(

This is terrible. The universe is an object (collection of objects). What is the meaning of a rock? What is the meaning of an atom? Things don't have meaning, symbols have meaning. The universe is meaningless. Its not a bad thing... Why do people search for meanings? Because in order to better understand the world around us we need a way to encode and structure and define the things around us so that we can mentally engage with them (reason) and make decisions, ultimately assisting survival.

Certainly the meaning of a system lies outside a system, because HUMANS CAST MEANING ONTO THINGS. Humans can cast meaning on the universe in general without any actual being outside the universe. And this isn't a response to atheism just a clever ploy to get people to believe in ridiculous things for the sake of perceived utility.

Meaning is propaganda

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

Meaning is the value a mind puts on an idea about something. It can derive from propaganda or not.

Defining humans as meaning-seekers already presupposes some platonic version of meaning. Congratulations, you've just merely defined meaning into existence. Instead, I view humans as meaning-assigners as a consequence of brain processes. No more brains to process and assign meaning, no more meaning. I need a lot less powerful assumptions, so Occam's razor, so... you know. So the chess analogy breaks down: now meaning is not outside of the system of chess, meaning is assigned by the players, and the players are part of the system. This, kids, is why you should study philosophy, rather than religion. Nobody gives a shit about (Neo-)Platonism other than other (Neo-)Platonists. It's just profound-sounding nonsense.

@fabfrenchies1974

2 жыл бұрын

You don't understand what he is saying, your inserting what you interpret. Then your assigning what you view. Then using Occam's razor wrong just confirms inconsistency and firmness to complex ideas. Atheism does that it just denies with simple ideas and no complexity. At least in today's form. At least religion tries to add complexity. In order for an atheist to feel good they have to borrow from a religious world view otherwise morals are brought into question. You can try to describe where those morals come from and say they got that part wrong but it doesn't do enough to convince why the system is right or wrong it just denies origin.

@malchir4036

2 жыл бұрын

@@fabfrenchies1974 "At least religion tries to add complexity." So does magic. If you don't care about what's true and want story-telling based on tradition, you're at the perfect place with neo-Platonists. Because these guys can tell stories. Magical stories. Narnia and the Divine Craftsman and whatnot. "In order for an atheist to feel good they have to borrow from a religious world view otherwise morals are brought into question." Well, no, you're a bit too much into moral realism, I'm not. Societal morality can be just make-belief closed-system values. Even theists have to accept that, it's not like societies didn't exist before their religion did. So who's borrowing from who's worldview?

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@malchir4036 Perry B is all over the comments frantically asserting that without God we'd all have to accept cannibalism and stuff like that. He's not up to the standard of debate.

@donnievance1942

2 жыл бұрын

@@malchir4036 Every one of his posts is a gish gallop of assertions, some of them copy pasted over and over.

Thanks for exposing this horse shit. It is quite telling that some consider him to be " one of the world's greatest Jewish scholars and contemporary thinkers". Could we please get some information on some of these people, so that they can be dismissed?

@alancopeland4286

4 жыл бұрын

That's right. When you can't sum up a counter thesis - just insult him. It speaks volumes about your character.