Definitely need both in your repertoire, but if there's a question it's pretty much always push for me. Gotta make the miles downriver. I noticed private boaters tend to pull nearly everything including holes, which leads to much of the great KZread content we get here every day.

I am a retired guide/avid private boater having run trips on the Middle Fork of the Salmon, Selway, Main Salmon, and countless day trips on the upper Salmon. I agree that knowing when to push or pull, or to Ferry upstream or Ferry downstream and to use the best technique for the immediate situation is key. Having run many thousands of river miles I prefer to let the let the current do most of the work. The key to using the rivers energy is constantly reading the water for the line you want, obstacles/obstructions and most importantly learning to read the current. I prefer to use downstream Ferry push strokes to move the raft into current that flows past, not into obstacles or shallows. Using push strokes and facing downstream allows me to focus on reading the river and planning my line well before I get to an obstacle. Being out in Nature, in the sunshine or rain, the beauty of the landscape, comradery of friends or guest are all appreciated, however I get my greatest enjoyment reading the river, the current and using the least amount of work to run clean lines. As others have mentioned, it takes many river miles with successful runs and mistakes made (and learned from) to develop good judgment on which strokes to use when. As a young guide I developed technique to control my boat with precision. In class I water I would pick out a rock, one that breaks the water surface and preferably not directly downstream but off to the side and 20 to 40 yards downstream. My goal was to use push strokes & the current to maneuver as close to the rock without touching it as the boat passed by it. As my judgement & skill progressed I would do it in class II water. eventually developing my skill of reading the current well enough to run clean lines in class III & class IV water using forward facing push strokes. Think of sitting on a bike coasting down a low angle hill. You have breaks but you don’t want to use them, spoils the fun. You can steer around potholes, avoid curbs or rocks and as your skill and confidence grow you can go faster on steeper hills. On the river you use push strokes to steer and move toward a line of current that flows where you want to go. Start slow build skill as you go.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Great advice! Thank you for taking time to add it to the discussion.

Backferrying is a less strenuous way of setting up for a line for sure, as some have pointed out, and is great if you need to slow down and correct a line in a complicated drop, but if you use backstrokes in the thick of a rapid with strong hydraulics such as the lead in to Rams horn or similar, you better be prepared to compensate with solid push strokes to make up for the loss of momentum in my experience. My philosophy has evolved to look at back strokes as tools to efficiently set yourself up in advance, while good charging forward strokes get you where you need to be and help hit retentive features with force.

Both are needed and I think it's a sure sign of a novice when they are only committed to one. When I teach someone to row a river I initially teach them to point towards and pull away from rocks/danger, but to push through waves and holes. I do think it's less about which you prefer and more about knowing when each should be used.

@ZacharyCollier

5 жыл бұрын

Yep I totally agree

@davidgroth7841

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!! Very helpful to me, who was just exposed to pulling, presented as THE way to row. Better: "know when each should be used." Thanks.

Great topic! I think the dynamic combination of pushing and pulling is key, especially if your comfortable with a down stream backwards ferry. Pulling backwards at a downstream angle is the most reliable way I know to break through high water lateral waves.

The perfect video on this is “Tips to rowing the Grand Canyon.” It gives arguments and examples of pushing, pulling, upstream ferries and downstream ferries.

The advantage of the pull is the boat is angled to the current so that the current pushes the boat away from what you want to miss. If you push, the boat accelerates and the angle of the boat let's the current push the boat towards what you are trying to miss. Angle and direction of force, from the oars, create vectors that are your line of travel. The most precise way to maneuver is by pulling back at an angle to the current. This is why airplanes take off and land into the wind and sailboats tack.

Lots of good observations here. The one point I didn't hear from Zach in the video, or see in the comments, is the simple fact that pulling is the inherently stronger action. You've got a lot more leverage to really get your back into it, with your feet planted in some way. When I was first learning, this point was often made, and so while all the fine points about when to pull and push make a lot of sense, the greater power available in pulling is worth keeping in mind, especially for novices trying to stay safe. I'd be interested to hear if anyone disagrees with that notion.

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

River Lover great point. Yes I should have mentioned the strength difference. This is the beginning of rhis discussion and I’ll be sure to mention that in future episodes.

This was VERY helpful! I appreciate your style of exploring pros and cons of each style. Thanks!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Great perspective Zack. I like to thing of it as a "passive" (pull) or "assertive" (push) attitude with the boat like you mentioned as aggressive. thanks again for all the great vids.

Zach knows what he is talking about. I could feel the oars in my hands as he was describing different scenarios and I concur with most of what he says. One of his early points is that commercial guides will tell you pushing forward is the way to go. I would agree. During my time rowing commercially, we ran so many trips a day that you wanted to squeeze all the efficiency you could out of your rowing, therefore pushing forward was key. Another good reason for forward rowing is water speed. You should always be moving slower or faster than the current to be able to remain in control. Sure you can backhaul and go slower, but then you risk your stern getting sucked into a recirculating hole. When forward rowing, you have momentum on your side. You also have the ability to make last second adjustments going into the meat of something. If you go in rowing backwards, yes you have more power, the problem is that you don't have the ability to make micro adjustments. This can result in entering wrong, getting side surfed and often its lights out after that. I have also found that rowing backwards into a big hole gives you more power per oar, but presents a huge risk of shoulder injury. It is very easy to be reaching to pull just a little more water and have and oar dig to deep and yank on you, upping the risk of torn shoulders. I agree with Zach, there are certainly times to backhaul, especially backing off of rocks. However, even in these situations, I find it is best to approach heads up and pushing forward, set up an up stream ferry angle, back haul for a couple strokes, scissor stroke as you round the eddyline, then back to forward rowing once past it. This keeps you in an aggressive heads-up defensive position where you can quickly change course, momentum, etc. With backhauling upstream (forward facing) or rowing backwards downstream, you give up that sharp micro adjustment ability. One of my favorite rivers to run has a river right route that is the lesser drop of a river-wide hole drop. Many feel this is the preferred raft route, especially the fishing guides. To enter requires a lot of backhauling, a stall out followed by a quick scissor push-pull of the oars and either back into the hole backwards or punch it. With so much lost momentum, I feel the only safe finishing move is a push forward. However, the other route is river left over a much more direct, but bigger drop with a last second right lateral. I prefer this route because it is more direct, there is no stall out mid-rapid, and one has tons of momentum. The only catch? One has to push forward all the way down the set up going into it. It is the line I take with narrow rafts like Pumas, Super Pumas, etc, but it is also the line I take with tandem duckies. I often have a first time kayaker in the bow, so all my lines and paddle strokes are based off of a forward rowing raft approach with all downstream ferry angles. I feel it is safer and presents only one real flipping obstacle versus three on the other route that requires backhauling. I have talked about ducky paddling/kayaking and one major reason to learn to push when rowing is that it will make the transition to a kayak and particularly to a ducky (inflatable kayak) much easier. Kayaks can move really quickly through the water and you do not have the luxury of backhauling on both oars to put the breaks on to slow down. Sure you can upstream ferry and scull and such, but the first steps are all forward paddling. If you already are used to the speed and setting up downstream ferry angles from forward rowing, you are that much better off. As many have commented, you need both in your rowing repertoire. The more you row, the bigger water you run, you will realize there are times for both. However, as a general rule, I prefer forward rowing as the safest, risk-reducing, fastest, most efficient way to get down the river.

You do an excellent job with your videos, on pushing or pulling I find you spot on. Throughout my years on the Colorado I've helped many a new guides giving the exact same advise. Keep up the excellent work, and remember: Time spent on the river will never be deducted from your life!!!!

@GearGarageTV

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the nice comment! I'm glad to hear you are giving the same advice.

@davidroberts5577

4 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Your most welcome ☮️

Both are necessary to know and use well. Peace river folk! See you soon.

I learned the importance of pushing working the Nenanna. Stay moving so you dont get surfed and also to keep up the pace. Sometimes you want to pull to catch one of those lateral surfs and move off the wall though. One time that some will push that irks me is camp and takeout. Pull for that eddy. You never want to be the guy that misses the camp eddy because he thought he could make the push and didnt.😢.

Pulling is definetly the place to start for beginners. It allows more time to make the move and avoid an obstacle. As you get into more difficult water the push is a must especially with bigger holes and waves. I think changing your mind if you should push or pull can be troublesome on a long difficult rapid. I like to decide before the rapid and stick with plan A. I'm a fan of pushing most of the time even in technical water with gear. You can drive one tube into eddies behind rocks or even part of a hole to turn the boat and allow the power of the river to get the boat to start moving the boat in that direction. Avoiding single rocks seems to be less work with pushing because at a minimum you only need to get the front half of the boat past the rock then you just do a spin move to avoid it with the back of the boat. Pulling away from every rock in a gear boat on a technical river can be a lot of work...my two cents...

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

Great thought - thank you for adding to the discussion. When you push past an obstacle like a rock, what do you do with the oar next to the obstacle?

@martinorlik

5 жыл бұрын

I ship that oar like you do in your video or I may go over the top of shorter obstacles if there is enough clearance. I think it depends where I want my blade to be for the first stroke after clearing the obstacle. @@GearGarageTV

Both all the time.

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

Yep

So I run the lower new in wv. I had never been rafting before i got my boat. I ended running the lower new 2 months in. I ask for help every chance i can . Most people tell me to push. However not many people know rowing that section .I tend to get raft guides that have only paddled or kayakers to follow. When I listen to their instruction I flip. Pretty much what I'm saying is it's best to take their advice on the proper route but not advice on the technique to maneuver through said route. I'm very glad you made this video because it just reinforces my natural instinct of how to maneuver down a river which pulling and pushing you need both but pulling away is definitely a great technique to maneuver

@hoffmanslawnandfertilization

5 жыл бұрын

The best is just to pull in a reverse hahahah then it's best of both worlds. I have a reverse camera on my boat

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

There are times to push and times to pull. You'll have a hard time running rivers if you only push.

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

Here's a podcast that covers this topic too www.rivertalkpodcast.com/podcast/no-42-rowing-like-a-girl-and-other-lessons-from-peter-fox/

@curtiswarner5880

5 жыл бұрын

You want some help rowing in WV? Hollar at me. Curtis Warner l am on Facebook

@superguidegear3085

5 жыл бұрын

A lot of wave trains and holes on The New, so there will be a lot of pushing there at more normal flows. But when you pull into Double Z it's a pretty easy decision to start with a pull. Master them both for sure. You can try your reverse pull into Lower Railroad and give your friends a wild ride.

There is a time and place for both. I've been boating for 30 years, so I am not a novice, yet I regularly pull. Many things come into play, type of craft, how heavy the boat is loaded, the flow, the rapid, etc...

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

Great comments - thank you for adding to the discussion

Pushing has the obvious advantage that it's easier to see obstacles and therefore generally easier to avoid them. It's also easier to make minor corrections to your line than pulling. Pulling has the advantage that it is more powerful and therefore easier to make bigger moves especially when every stroke counts. The more important factor that you allude to is Ferry Angle, especially on high flow rivers. I see a quite a few rafters who start as fishermen moving to whitewater, and they have the habit of pulling with an up stream ferry angle which slows their momentum. That can that get you into trouble while approaching a straightforward rapid because you don't have as much speed to blast through and can get stalled. It's pretty much mandatory for most rowers to have a downstream angle and pull away from big danger such as strainers and undercut walls.

@GearGarageTV

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your thoughts! You can see obstacles when you're pulling too, right?

@jfo738

5 жыл бұрын

You can if you're pulling away from them. If you're pulling downstream, you have to look over your shoulder. Still, it's a lot of fun smashing a huge lateral with a stern gear stack to pull you through. @@GearGarageTV

The conversation should be when to use an upstream ferry angle vs a downstream ferry angle. A person can pull a downstream ferry angle too.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Pulling a downstream ferry angle is commonly referred to as a "downstream ferry" and certainly worthy of discussing. To keep things simple I chose not to cover that here.

@TypeIIAdventures

3 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Marc Hunt did a great GC video where he discusses the pros and cons of each.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

@@TypeIIAdventures Yep I watched it and it's great. The downstream ferry is crucial for the Grand Canyon and other big water rivers. In my opinion, most people learning for the more commonly rowed rivers should start with pulling and then work on pushing. After that the downstream ferry is taught as a tool to break through lateral waves and strong eddy lines. Again, for the Grand Canyon the downstream ferry is crucial and should be a priority.

@TypeIIAdventures

3 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Awesome summary/comparison! I had always been taught to pull back and push through the big holes. I look forward to adding the downstream ferry to my repertoire. I thoroughly enjoyed your video. Can't wait to get back on the river this summer.

Small mountain type river the pull stroke is good but big fast rivers like the Grand Canyon the pull stroke does not often work well . Knowing where your at and proper positions in big rapids the push stroke can work well to brake big waves and move through the rapid.

What rivers are in this video?? Beautiful!!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

The Wind, Hood, and Illinois Rivers

Definitely not a "expert" however I've run lots of gear boats down most Western US Rivers, and my take is that you need to be comfortable with both techniques. For me, pulling is a stronger stroke that delivers more power than pushing. On the Grand, I developed a new technique of using a pulling stroke with about a 3/4 downstream ferry angle and then squaring up the back end for the laterals, large waves and holes I needed to punch through as the weight on the back far exceeded my front weight, giving me better ability to punch through those things rather than stalling at the top of waves or the downstream side of the hole.

@GearGarageTV

9 ай бұрын

That all sounds like great technique and great advice

I think to be a good captain you have to use both. Using them at the right time is the trick. This all comes with time spent on rivers. I have seen a few KZread videos where people are pulling a whole rapid looking over their shoulder. I don’t agree with this at all.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Yes using both is good. The third technique called a "downstream ferry" requires pulling downstream and looking over your shoulder can be useful at times too.