As a law student just learning the model rules of ethics, the attorney here is right he literally can’t say anything or he will be breaking attorney client privilege and get disbarred. MR 1.6 only gives three exceptions and he may disclose if its to protect reasonably certain death. But here the people are already dead so harm is not imminent kind of a tuff situation for a moral attorney.

@AveryR-XC

3 жыл бұрын

A moral attorney is an oxymoron.

@LiaaaaaaaaAAAAAHH

3 жыл бұрын

He chose to go to the location of the bodies. There was no reason to go, he didn’t need to know, he wanted to see them. He broke the law the minute he locked the door and didn’t report it.

@raymondweston8997

3 жыл бұрын

@@LiaaaaaaaaAAAAAHH Although he did choose to go to verify the bodies. He actually followed the letter of the law, by NOT reporting the bodies to law enforcement. A lawyer is legally bound to report an impending crime, or a crime in progress. But he can NOT break, Attorney Client privilege, regarding a crime that has already been committed. Law and Morals can NOT exist on the same plain. The rule of law, was never intended to work that way.

@xientau9028

3 жыл бұрын

Question: Won't he be disbarred for aiding and abetting a felony like this? If so, then I see no reason for him to keep his mouth shut anymore once they drag him to the stand, it's a "damned if he does, damned if he don't" situation, no?

@WiGgYof09

3 жыл бұрын

@@xientau9028 he is not thinking about just himself. He says so in the clip.

I love that Jack still riding his motorcycle this season until he stopped and started using the subway after he got older.

@ca8427

3 жыл бұрын

Jack is so old and gross

@123haninhk

3 жыл бұрын

@@ca8427 why do you reply to this comment thread. Make your own comment.

@justinpullin98

2 жыл бұрын

JustinPullin and Lindsaycase MelissaOiler and MikeOiler DaniellePullin and LuisLuciano MistyBrown and ScottBrown MeganEllis and MikeEllis MichelleOiler and Kevinstory brandylnpursley and LatianaLuciano Ronniemarrero and KellyHammond TylerJohnson and Jeanettespirt

@LawAndOrderFangirl38

2 жыл бұрын

I love it too! And he looks really hot in the scene with the bike. Gorgeous man

@StevenVanOver

2 жыл бұрын

As legal ethics are tossed aside this is what you fan-boy on? So sad.

The guy that played Bruner was a really good actor. The way you hate the guy sitting down really proves that he's a great actor.

@habs798693

3 жыл бұрын

They used him a few times. He also played a DEA agent in the episode Borgia was murdered.

@geebee3256

3 жыл бұрын

He’s SOOOOO CREEPY!! (But I mean it in the kindest and most loving way) It’s AWESOME. Really scary....Terrifying and convincing. I could watch this series 24/7. Be safe & healthy y’all.

@madunwagbo4769

3 жыл бұрын

He was also responsible for getting Green shot in the L&O/TBJ crossover

@habs798693

3 жыл бұрын

@@madunwagbo4769 I remember him being shot in L&O, but I didn't know about the TBJ crossover. I'll have to check that out.

@madunwagbo4769

3 жыл бұрын

The conclusion of Green’s shooting took place in TBJ with McCoy being taken off the case

Episode is based on a case that villified the defense attorney for doing something similar, but in the end he was vindicated and his decision has been held up as the correct course of action.

@1slow.bimmer673

Жыл бұрын

is there a pt2 of this

@johndavis9432

11 ай бұрын

Just because it's legally right doesn't make it ethically right.

@Slowpoke3x

11 ай бұрын

​@@johndavis9432legally right is ethically right, your thinking morally right. Ethier way criminals and or those accused by the crime have a right to be able to trust their lawyers. Without that trust the justice system becomes a sham.

@johndavis9432

11 ай бұрын

@@Slowpoke3x Murderers already have too many rights and their attorneys are scum too.They're just one little step above their monster clients.

@royalewithcheese7

8 ай бұрын

I will say what I always say. In these hyper specific circumstances, the defense lawyer should always just make an anonymous call to the police. The should just say “Hey, I saw some shady activity at this property and some blood. You should check it out.”

Jack McCoy is actually violating the Rules of Ethics and could be sanctioned / disciplined further. Not only is it a violation to break confidentiality, but it is a violation to attempt to get another attorney to do so.

@obliviouz

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Defence attorney goes in front of a judge and it's a straight contempt charge for McCoy.

@codingfinance6080

Жыл бұрын

No one cares and it shows that you don’t know how the law actually works 😂😂😂

@user-os3ly1mj9f

Жыл бұрын

I would tend to agree but in a court of hollywood law, i think The People will be ok with it

@mrroboshadow

Жыл бұрын

@@user-os3ly1mj9f yes but this is a hollywood court that actual lawyers praise for being very accurate

@davisthegamelord

Жыл бұрын

Ive noticed a pattern with any law and order show. They like to demonize defense attorneys and make them look as bad as the criminals

Well the attorney is right. He is following the rules. They want him to literaly break the law and to lose his license for that. Its veeeeery easy to preach about justice and right and wrong when you dont risk losing your job for it.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

not just his job is at stake. the integrity of the entire justice system. criminals could now claim they won't get a fair trial and people would be afraid lawyers could leak secrets on their lives at any point no matter how small.

@denisenoe7746

2 жыл бұрын

But he should lose his license instead of going to prison.

@shapillay6321

Жыл бұрын

Maybe it shows how wrong and messed up the law is...it protects criminals...not the innocent ...any person who Says otherwise is also guilty

@ALgamer47

Жыл бұрын

So this defense attorney is just going to spend the rest of life in jail?

@katemae1076

Жыл бұрын

That's why McCoy's move to charge him as an accomplice is so good. It's ALSO to the letter of the law

One of the more fucked up and corrupt things Jack ever did. I'm surprised the judge would even allow this.

I really hate to do it, but I kinda agree with the poor attorney. Him disclosing that information could set a very potentially dangerous precedent for future cases. It might unfortunately cause more problems than it brings comfort.

@tiralana8360

3 жыл бұрын

Would you say the same of a priest who knew, without question, the identity of a child killer due to confession but remained silent due to "ethics". There are professional ethics and then there's the greater good. I rare cases those things conflict and, at least for me, I have to side with the greater good of helping those families. I'd take that hit professionally. Some things are more important.

@JohnJohnson-ps3pd

3 жыл бұрын

@@tiralana8360 These types of things are complicated, the greater good can cause misfortune for a lawyer and even their loved ones, always look at every factor of a situation

@foolslayer9416

2 жыл бұрын

@@tiralana8360 To hell with those ethics. If I knew where the bodies of that psychopath's victims were, I would scream it from the rooftops.

@normande1176

2 жыл бұрын

@@foolslayer9416 Ya me too that was a pathetic excuse to not say where are the bodies.

@foolslayer9416

2 жыл бұрын

@@normande1176 The guy is a psychopath and a serial killer, if anything he should be thrown into the crowd and let them all take turns torturing him until he talks.

They cut this clip off five seconds too early. As I recall, the guy on trial responds to Jack's last statement with, "Shame on them."

@timokross

3 ай бұрын

Best line of the entire episode.

They really wrote Ledger's Joker five years ahead of the Nolan film. Impressive.

@devonjohnson3549

3 жыл бұрын

We have to take it under advisement he's not really wearing makeup he's a serial killer using a cab as a front

@MikeMJPMUNCH

3 жыл бұрын

Funny I thought he was more like Victor Zsasz

@diosoth

3 жыл бұрын

Ledger Joker is overrated trash though. He'd be scarier without the "I'm not even the comic book version" runny makeup but the entire Nolan Batman series was garbage anyway.

@JnEricsonx

3 жыл бұрын

And I'm pretty sure that's the guy who played one of the gang leaders IN said film, the Russian one, the "It's about sending a message" guy.

@TactileTherapy

3 жыл бұрын

@@JnEricsonx yup. The Chechen

Being a defense attorney has to be one of the hardest job. Yet where would we be without them.

@Catsss1017

Жыл бұрын

Idk don’t commit crime

@lPlanetarizado

Жыл бұрын

@@Catsss1017 sometimes innocent people gets the incarcerated you know

@bursegsardaukar

10 ай бұрын

​@@lPlanetarizadoDepends how good or dedicated your lawyer is. One man was accused of murder and his lawyer had every opportunity to call a mistrial (a witness was caught sleeping with the investigating officer) but didn't. The man was later exonerated by DNA evidence after decades behind bars. In the Duke lacrosse case, one of the lawyers spent days reading a textbook about DNA and was able to discredit the private DNA lab director.

@JBoo

9 ай бұрын

​@@lPlanetarizadotoo many while actual killers are lose every day

He is actually in a no-win situation. If he acquiesced to McKoy then the parents would be satisfied but his reputation would suffer so that no one else would trust him as someone to confide in if they needed to hire him. Then McKoy would not go out of his way to repair his reputation.

@rudygb17

3 жыл бұрын

Not to mention that if he does disclose the information, it leaves a precedent for future cases so so it would be easier for innocent people be prosecuted. McCoy knows this, but it pisses me off that he thinks he can ignore the law when it's inconvenient for him.

@RohenBlackwolf

3 жыл бұрын

Could he tell it, if a hight court would allow it?

@b0ajvk8

3 жыл бұрын

@@RohenBlackwolf the high court does not forbid it, nor do they have the power to compel it. It is up to the lawyer if he wants to violate the oath that he took when he became a lawyer, 'to guard privileged conversation. Ironically, Serena and McCoy would have had to take the exact same oath!!!!

@matthewforsyth284

3 жыл бұрын

Uh yeah and if he didn’t he’d still go to jail and be disbarred you know that right?

@jxswu3224

3 жыл бұрын

His own curiosity killed him, it's legit curiosity kills the cat, he wanted to see if the murders were true, by seeing them he must disclose that as it is potential and is evidence

I have always had a problem with this episode. Jack says "the cannons of ethics requires me to........." in almost every episode. But then, in this case it's "But who's it going to hurt?" But, this is drama not fact based. I just like consistent story lines.

@nothobbesmufc949

Жыл бұрын

well, the defense attorney has no ethics to stand on. Defense attorneys aren't allowed to go look at hidden dead bodies, then close and lock the door behind him. That's aiding in the crime.

@AH-te5gs

10 ай бұрын

McCoy was always one to bend the rules when he felt justice needed to be done. Even if it went against every rule of the justice system.

@royalewithcheese7

8 ай бұрын

The lawyer should have just made an anonymous call to the police. That way the system stays in place, the code of ethics is still upheld, the lawyer can still practice the law. If the lawyer had placed an anonymous tip to the police then the only one that gets hurt is the confessed psychopathic killer.

@Marsproject11

4 ай бұрын

@@nothobbesmufc949 Technically corret, the BEST kind of correct.

@Bergen98

3 ай бұрын

If that serial killer just told him - sure. It is disgusting and that lawyer will probably commit suicide in the end of shear guilt. However, in this particular case, he went there, opened and closed the house were the bodies were. So he committed a crime himself

I have to side with the lawyer on this! He is correct when he says that "we all lose". If he did break his oath and told what he knows about the bodies, then that would set a standard by which law would be done. Future cases would point back to this case and say 'see it was done before' or cause a slippery slope for 'lesser' cases. Even if a defendent might be innocent. His motives and reasons are actually noble and correct in up holding the law.

@foolslayer9416

3 жыл бұрын

You have got to be kidding me. You're defending a man who's defending a psychopath and a serial killer? I say that a man like that should burn down with the man with he's defending.

@joshuajones9035

3 жыл бұрын

​@@foolslayer9416 a defensive lawyer's job is to defend their client even if they hate them or don't believe in what they have done, the entire legal process relies on having the accused be able to defend themselves, less we be rampant with crime, if the defended aren't allowed to defend themselves in this manner a "fair" trial would never be possible

@2degucitas

3 жыл бұрын

@@foolslayer9416 The courts would be full of "unfair trial" lawsuits by perps found guilty on their lawyer providing confidential evidence. They would find another eager fresh out of law school, ACLU lawyer and clog up the courts.

@ayacachotinemi4974

3 жыл бұрын

@@foolslayer9416 Defence lawyers don't just defend guilty people. Prosecutors don't only prosecute guilty people. This is a TV series, fiction, written from the point of view of the prosecutor's office. In real life prosecutors are fallible and defence lawyers are often the only thing that stands between an innocent person and a system - cops, prosecutors, sometimes even judges - intent on railroading them. Give the prosecutor the power to strongarm an attorney like this and they always have it - they have it when they're prosecuting a guilty person and they have it when they're prosecuting an innocent person. Thank God the American justice system was created by people smarter than you.

@donovansteltzner9080

3 жыл бұрын

@Fool Slayer Even asking another lawyer to violate the canons of ethics - in open court and on the record - is itself a serious offense for which sanctions from the Bar would not be an inappropriate remedy. Even if the Lawyer does nothing and stands his ground, McCoy could be subject to discipline by the Bar.

"I think the people would overlook your legal indiscretions if you told them what they wanted to know" This is very reminiscent of saying something along the lines of "If a man were not afraid of the truth he would answer" Your constitutional rights, the oaths you have taken (which are backed by law) are all there to protect you. Just because you use them does NOT infer guilt. Yet lately we seem to believe that.

@ruben1151

3 жыл бұрын

Issue is that he'd still be disbarred. What he should have asked for is for them to contact the bar and ask them to allow him to break privilege. If they did, he can say w/e he wants

@jonsouth1545

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruben1151 That wouldn't make good drama thought

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruben1151 even if the bar allowed it, his reputation would still be stained. that's politics. who do you think will hire a laser known to break privilege and release information on his client. i might admire the guy but I definitely wouldn't hire him because anyone who does something once will likely do it again.

@ruben1151

2 жыл бұрын

@@craigclermond8001 I'd still hire the guy unless I'm accused of a similarly bad crime. I just don't view attorney client privilege as being thaaat sacred. In a case like this, it would 100% not affect my view of the guy. Granted some might feel as you do, but likely the guy would still have work. Heck, possibly more due to the fame/infamy

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruben1151 in the real work reputation matters. the issue isn't with the guy doing the morally right thing. the issue would be how safe would people feel disclosing secrets to a lawyer who has previously exposed his clients. you don't have to be a vicious criminal to understand that. most trials are delicate and any information can be used against you, even trivial things. ill bet people would admire the guy from a moral standpoint but professionally he would be a liability to companies and personal cases.

This brings up a lot of interesting real-life questions. I'd like Legal Eagle to do an analysis of this episode.

@TactileTherapy

3 жыл бұрын

He's currently obsessed with Trump. He wont be doing anymore Law and Order takes

@ellejagerman6105

3 жыл бұрын

@@TactileTherapy unfortunate but true

@tonts5329

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe Viva Frei or Robert Barnes could analyse it. They seem to know American and Canadian Law much better than Legal Eagle.

@vincentbrooks4518

3 жыл бұрын

Considering Legal Eagle is lying trash who has little idea what he's talking about, I doubt he'd offer much.

@juliantapia1407

3 жыл бұрын

@@TactileTherapy Out of the last 10 episodes he posted only 4 were about trump. That's not really Obsessed.

"Attorney client privilege is there for a reason. If I broke that privilege to get my client off because I knew an alibi he had? You would disbar me so fast I would BOUNCE on the pavement. You know what happens if I break that privilege? The people don't say a damned thing. I am disbarred and share a cell at Rikers. And the entirety of client privilege goes out the window. I would love to tell you Mr. McCoy. I would love to not be this man's attorney and to have never seen what I have seen. But those will be MY nightmares to come."

I really don't like how dismissive the prosecutors are towards public defenders in this show.

@4EyedRocker

2 жыл бұрын

Ya, its the only thing that aged like sour milk in law and order and SVU. When I first watched this episode I was more angry at McCoy than at the Murder and the defense lawyer.

@WillGrimm623

Жыл бұрын

McCoy had the moral obligation towards the victims. He’s more than willing to break ethics to do the right yhing

@umungus518

8 ай бұрын

​@@WillGrimm623thats how innocent people get locked up. Ethics are there for a reason. He is a scary, authoritarian prosecutor.

Did McCoy really just say “so who’s it going to hurt?” That’s something one of those parents would say. Not an attorney who took an oath to uphold the same standards the poor defense attorney he had arrested is trying to do. Such horrible writing…

this happened up here. a defense lawyer knew of the existence and location of video tapes that would have shown the girlfriend of a serial killer as a willing partner, and without them she got a light sentence and went free

@TweetieDEE15

3 жыл бұрын

Ken and Barbie killers?

@gingerlee8819

3 жыл бұрын

@@TweetieDEE15 They were ugly people, it's a joke they were nick named that.

@richardharrow1946

3 жыл бұрын

U from Canada

@gingerlee8819

3 жыл бұрын

@@richardharrow1946 yeah I am from Canada, those were people were not hot, even by Montreal standards.

@KhaosN7

2 жыл бұрын

This also hapened in the US. A killer confessed to his attorneys that he killed two other people and told them where to find the bodies. After they confirmed that the bodies were there, they didn't report them to the authorities and they were indcted after the trial. The charge was that they had violated public health laws by not reporting decomposing bodies, and they argued that reporting them would have violated attorney/client confidentiality. They were found Not Guilty.

McCoy rides a motorcycle?!? This guys gets cooler with every video.

@Tripp216

14 күн бұрын

He rode a lot more in earlier seasons

This happened in the Adirondacks around 1975. Robert Garrow murdered four teens. He took his attorneys to the bodies but they refused to release the location of the bodies to police. Their families suffered terribly.

@Renegade2786

2 жыл бұрын

This episode is probably based on that case. Law and Order is notorious for having episodes based real life cases.

Props to the actor playing the serial killer for portraying a twisted psychopath so well, this guy should be the next Joker!!

@alexgee6393

Жыл бұрын

He's already part of the batman universe. He plays the role of "The Chechen" in the dark knight.

What the *hell*, Jack? I love the way Jack McCoy is written, but here... How the hell was he not disbarred for demanding this defense counsel break the law in open court?

@matthewforsyth284

11 ай бұрын

Because he didn’t demand he break the law since on account this wasn’t covered by attorney client privilege you do know that right!?

Dude...this is fuqed up...I feel sorry for the defense attorney in this. He had no choice but to defend this refuse...

@MasterManto

3 жыл бұрын

He didn't need to go to where the bodies were. His own twisted reasons of why he wanted to see where they were and what they looked like was his own doing... Sure, I've seen multiple comments about how he was ethically and legally bound to protect Bruner, but I wasn't sad one bit that he was locked up in the end.

@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755

3 жыл бұрын

@@MasterManto I was because it seemed like he was doing what he believed he was obligated to do as a lawyer.

@MasterManto

3 жыл бұрын

@@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755 I don't think there's any rule or law that says a lawyer has to go where his client tells him of crimes he's committed. He went out of a sick curiosity.

@t.dickerson605

3 жыл бұрын

@@MasterManto He wanted to confirm what the client told him.

@ThePrincessCH

3 жыл бұрын

@@MasterManto Apparently, he thought it would help his case or part of his job is to confirm the veracity of his claim. Although I wonder why the guy bothered to tell his lawyer about the bodies at all, I believe defense attorneys are required to meet with their clients regularly to review the case, if that's true why reveal to your lawyer a piece of evidence like that and use attorney-client privilege to keep it a secret if he's already found guilty.

This was a unique episode. A fight between the realism and the idealism of the law.

@foolslayer9416

10 ай бұрын

Laws are based on convenience, not virtue. He is protecting the rights of a serial killer, a serial killer who has subverted the laws and needs to pay.

@crazyangst12

9 ай бұрын

@@foolslayer9416 that's his job as a defendant.... and he is paying for his crime

@winternow2242

9 ай бұрын

You mean the lawyer's choices are based only idealism?

Brunner pick them up in a cab I mean there's no worst place you could dump the bodies this episode is so ominous

Ritchie Coster was absolutely mesmerising in this episode

This case would be thrown out immediately. Not to mention that the ACLU would throw every resource they have at protecting this attorney.

Are there any other scenes of Jack on his motorcycle?

@britney901

3 жыл бұрын

I saw that and was like "He rides a motorcycle?"

@123haninhk

3 жыл бұрын

He rides a motorcycle since his introduction in the series. Usually his scenes depict him parking the bike before going to his office.

@aaronburgin1442

3 жыл бұрын

They refer to it periodically from his first episode in 1994.

@cultclassic999

3 жыл бұрын

There are many scenes where he changes into a leather jacket and carries a helmet when he leaves his office. It was clear he rides a motorcycle. But I don't remember seeing him with a motorcycle on any other scenes.

The Defense Attorney should of told McCoy in private when no record existed that he knew. Then he would have never been tied to it. The cops would have created a reason to enter the premises of whatever or wherever the building is where the bodies were located. That is how its really done when something as bad as this occurs.

Oh how I wish you held my cab that line right there it's just gold

@karazor-el6085

3 жыл бұрын

"hailed But yeah...he's thinking missed opportunities...

1) How did this ever make it to a jury? 2) Would the defense still have an obligation to his client after the client's death? 3) Presumably the bodies "under lock and key" are on someone else's property. Can the defense lawyer skirt confidentiality by asking the owner to check his property, or in some other way cause a third party to discover the bodies?

@deedledumb790

Жыл бұрын

Knowing how sick Bruner is, it's likely a property he owns, somewhere very remote. Or rents and has paid the rent for years in advance. I can't imagine he would put them someplace where the smell would make discovery imminent or the owner could be forced to go in.

@carmelopappalardo8477

10 ай бұрын

See I wonder if he can tell because he's being charged as an accessory. I know he is right as an attorney not to disclose but as an accessory can he disclose the location.

@kyleolson9636

9 ай бұрын

It wouldn't have made it to trial. The real life inspiration for this case had all charges dismissed.

Jack often abused his power & violated the rules/ethics of his profession. He considered those acts to be honorable as well as just.

@asbrozek64

3 жыл бұрын

Jack's ethics were whatever suited him in the moment.

@fumzsimmer1992

3 жыл бұрын

Which is why Stone was the better DA in my opinion

@goldenvulture6818

3 жыл бұрын

@@fumzsimmer1992 He was an ADA

@mohammedhussain6749

3 жыл бұрын

@@asbrozek64 so a lawyers ethics then

@sypherthe297th2

8 ай бұрын

That's a foundational aspect of being a cop/prosecutor and a large proportion of the judiciary has been corrupted by former prosecutors. The law is simply whatever benefits their careers, pocketbooks, and ambitions. For every guilty criminal they put away they protect a similar number in their own organizations. Its unfortunate but the system is rotten to its core with people like Jack McCoy. Defense attorneys are supposed to be zealous advocates for their client. Prosecutors are supposed to pursue justice and not simply press for the highest number of years against innocent citizens just so they can notch a win. But they do.

Gotta say the guy that plays the criminal, He's a talented actor

This is one of those rare scenes where people see through the bias of this show and acknowledge how it tries to normalize cops and lawyers breaking the law when it benefits the state. Almost every episode, at least one lawyer and cop openly violates or purposefully misconstrues a law to strongarm a witness or defendant. This show has done untold damage to the public’s view on the relationship between the justice system and citizens.

This episode is off-the-wall.Attorney-client privilege is pretty rock solid and the lawyer here is technically in the right. It is bizarre that he should be imprisoned for being true to the lawyer's ethics.

@ZOOTSUITBEATNICK1

Жыл бұрын

@@DevourerofGods666 twit

@nothobbesmufc949

Жыл бұрын

he's being imprisoned for helping hide the bodies. it would likely get overturned on appeal. it's a bit of a legal quagmire. However, locking the door behind him does technically constitute aiding in the crime.

@RLucas3000

11 ай бұрын

@@nothobbesmufc949that was a dumb thing to do. Did he win or lose his case?

@t-rexcellentreviews1663

11 ай бұрын

@@RLucas3000he lost and along with going to prison, he was permanently disbarred because of conduct, his first case was also his last, he should have just told them where the bodies where and accepted he wasn’t cut out to be an attorney, his career was over before it ever really even began.

@winternow2242

9 ай бұрын

​@@nothobbesmufc949haven't caught this episode in a while. What evidence did they have that he did any of those things?

Question, if the defense blabbed about the bodies wouldn't the serial killer get to appeal fruit of the poisonous tree as the information was obtained illegally?

@gregjenkinson7512

3 жыл бұрын

In this case no. The killer has already been arrested and charged They just want to know where the bodies are so they can give the families peace

@KhaosN7

2 жыл бұрын

No. But the laywer would be in serious trouble. He could be sued and would likely be disbarred.

@t-rexcellentreviews1663

11 ай бұрын

@@KhaosN7it doesn’t matter, he got disbarred anyway after he was imprisoned, instead of just losing his job, he lost his job and his freedom.

@bursegsardaukar

10 ай бұрын

​@@t-rexcellentreviews1663For the sake of his own ego.

“Come on, violate the law : who is it gonna hurt?” Is the moral rot at L & O’s core.

@MsWarriordiva

2 ай бұрын

It's the moral rot by trump & his attorneys & any judge trying to protect him.......and that's REAL LIFE!!!!

The lawyer's greatest mistake would have been asking for a jury trial. The accused has the option of a jury trial, or trial by judge alone. Of course a jury of laypersons would convict him The judge, who understands the significance of maintaining privilege... likely not. But you almost never see a judge alone trial on Law & Order - not dramatic enough for TV I suppose.

@goldenvulture6818

3 жыл бұрын

You mean a "bench trial"

@goldenvulture6818

3 жыл бұрын

Believe it or not a bench trial is no less risky than a jury trial

@bull705

3 жыл бұрын

But by that logic a sympathetic judge could have set aside the verdict.

@scottmatheson3346

2 жыл бұрын

a jury trial improves your odds - of a mistrial, thanks to some screwup with the jury present, of a successful appeal, of a hung jury - all you need is one of 12, one wildcard that slips through voir dire, 8% rather than 100%.

I am not a lawyer but if anyone is, I have a question. Therapists have ethics to confidentiality as well. As a therapist I can not tell anyone what my client said,nor can I confirm nor deny they were my client at all. BUT if my client confesses to a murder or tells me they are planning to kill themselves or others, I have a obligation to warn. I can not contact the potential victim but I have a duty to contact the police. So is there such a thing for lawyers?

@hannahyoung6762

3 жыл бұрын

nope. your client can tell you all the details & the locations of the bodies or money & you can't do anything about it

@RohenBlackwolf

3 жыл бұрын

You can and must only act, if the client tells you of a crime that is going to be committed in the futur. Then for the protection of others and to not be an accomplice yourself you can report it

@lateishaclements

3 жыл бұрын

As an attorney we have an obligation to uphold attorney-client privilege. If he reveals and breaks that obligation the actor is correct WE ALL LOSE!!! Not to mention the client has the right to turn around and sue his attorney for the breach. Unfortunately, criminals have rights too that may continue to hurt others that have already been hurt :-(

@sonrouge

3 жыл бұрын

If he confesses to a past murder, no, you can't tell anyone any details. If he's referring to a future crime and you have reason to believe he's serious, yes, you have to report it.

@DSQueenie

3 жыл бұрын

The key word is “planning”. So yes in your situation a lawyer would also have to report on their client. However the situation in the show is about a crime that has already happened and in that situation they can’t talk.

L&O always goes out of its way to vilify defense attorneys.

It’s clear the defense attorney is afraid of his client, and horrified about the choices he made. I do get his argument, and it has a lot of merit. We need attorney-client privilege. But I feel like this is a unique case. McCoy makes a good point- who is it going to hurt? The serial killer is already dead. Revealing where the bodies are located would allow families some closure and peace. As far as the defense attorney, in these circumstances, I think he should break privilege, provide the information, and then go find another career. The killer is enjoying the situation way too much. He knew what he was doing- he set up his attorney. And now he’s watching all of this play out- he’s now in jail so he can’t kill anyone else- this is the most torture he can inflict. He’s still pulling all the strings and enjoying the show. He believes his attorney won’t violate privilege. The serial killer is still inflicting trauma on all of those around him - it matters not if he is in jail or sentenced to death. He will still find ways to play his games and make other people dance for him. Truly evil. (and great actor!) And it’s worth mentioning he said he doesn’t care what happens to him- and I believe him. They will never get anywhere with him, and he knows it. That just leaves his attorney.

@feanedhell

3 жыл бұрын

Maccoy is completely in the wrong and should be disbarred for suggesting an attorney breaks the law. The attorney has no choice, if they make an exception for this case where do they draw the line? No defendant could ever be able to trust his attorney again, and that would break the entire system. Everyone is equal under the law, even the most horrific of criminals.

@biruss

3 жыл бұрын

it's the principle

@yesterdayitrained

3 жыл бұрын

@@feanedhell : He is not completely wrong nor should he be disbarred for his request. I do see the possibility of a domino affect- and the massive amount of damage that could cause. However, because the attorney opened a locked door and then relocked it- he is a witness to and complicit in the crimes. Just from my perspective- those two things- attorney client privilege and being a witness to a crime- are completely separate.

@yesterdayitrained

3 жыл бұрын

@@biruss : I get it’s the principle. But the attorney- when he unlocked those doors- became a witness to a crime.

@feanedhell

3 жыл бұрын

@@yesterdayitrained knowledge of past crime is covered in the privilege, it’s only in cases of current or future crime that he can break it. By opening and relocking the door he only obtained information about a past crime and did not increase or decrease the likelihood of evidence being found. It’s 100% sure, but it’s close that a court would uphold the privilege. If Maccoy had the law on his side he’d say it, he knows he doesn’t and that’s why he failed his office.

the actor playing bruner is absolutely incredible

Google the Robert Garrow, Sr. case; the episode Bodies was loosely based on this (and in that RL case, the lawyers were CLEARED of all wrongdoing--it occurred in New York state)...

Why is the Judge allowing this line of conversation, lol. Jack is literally arguing in favor of him breaking the law.

This a a fantastic episode! Not only was the actor who played Bruner was top notch, the episode really gets you talking. Who was right? Who was wrong? What was the right thing to do? Does the law prevent you from doing whats right? There are no easy answers from this episode and no one wins. This episode is a great conversation starter, thats for sure.

It wouldn't be in any way ethical, but dropping a hint to the genpop of his crimes, but mandating that _he's absolutely _*_not allowed to die..._* That would loosen his tongue pretty quick.

Gotta give kudos to the actors playing the serial killer and his lawyer. You really want to hate both of them.

@Ub3rSk1llz

3 жыл бұрын

I don't hate the defence lawyer at all, I admire him. I hate the prosecutor.

@antmagor

3 жыл бұрын

I only hate one of them. Here’s a big hint it’s not the lawyer.

@antmagor

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ub3rSk1llz agreed, and as I said elsewhere McCoy has encountered corporate attorneys who’ve done at least what this guy did. I don’t seem to recall him prosecuting them as a means of circumventing the attorney client privilege. Because this guy is a public defender, they went after him with the big guns. There’s a part of me that wishes Ms.Sullivan had represented The defense attorney at trial. And if not her may be a former law and order alum. Not so that the verdict would’ve changed, This was clearly meant to be one of their thought-provoking episodes; but just to throw the poor guy a bone.

@davidholmgren8156

3 жыл бұрын

I have to feel sympathetic for the defense attorney, it’s clear that he wants to help but isn’t allowed to

@eaqua56

2 жыл бұрын

Loved Alexander Chaplin in Spin City. Cool to see him in other roles.

I forgotten these older episodes. McCoy was still riding that bike of this. That's cool.

Every time I see this episode, it really annoys me that McCoy and Southerlyn weren't recused in this case. I mean, I get it, they're the only ADA's in the show, it has to be them. It bothers me way more than it should lmao

I love Law and order

Great episode

This is painful to watch. Yes, the attorney be hurt. Even if not disbarred, his reputation is at risk. Who would want to be represented by him. Lawyers may have a bad rep but everyone has the right to an attorney and I am sure that things like this happen today. That sick people tell their attorney and even show their attorney, horrible things. To expect an attorney to literally ruin his life like this is completely unreasonable! One of the few times I have been against the "good guys" of Law & Order.

This killer deserved an Academy Award for this performance. Perfectly frightening.

That suspect was channeling his inner Spacey back when he was in seven.

As an attorney I'd take this to the State Bar for an ethics opinion.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

you'd probably never work again, as a lawyer at least. who is going to hire a lawyer that leaks client info? even a DA's office wouldn't trust you. most firms would stay clear of you and any client who hires you and googles your name would drop you like a hot potato.

@normanbraslow7902

2 жыл бұрын

craig clermond I don't quite understand your point. There is no violation of attorney client here. If you think so, explain.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@normanbraslow7902 I just did. even if the bar allows it no one would trust an attorney who discloses privileged info. would you hire a lawyer you heard testifying or leaking secrets on his last client?

@normanbraslow7902

2 жыл бұрын

craig clermond A lawyer must testify if they are witnesses to a crime committed by the client. On occasion, the attorney client privilege will not apply as to information regarding future crimes. It's not cut and dried. Civil matters are another matter entirely.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@normanbraslow7902 its complex therefore it can be manipulated and misuse. that's why we have general guidelines of each profession to follow.

Simple solution. Have the NY Bar allow him to talk. Or ask the Supreme Court. In this episode, it seems the Bar and court system are simply turning their backs on the issue.

@balajay8921

2 жыл бұрын

In fact the NY Bar should be defending him. And the Court should intervene. Surely, it could order the release of the information without any risk of repercussions? Now I remember, it's episodes like this that made stop watching the series all those years ago. Too much fiction parading as facts...

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@balajay8921 that will still destroy the profession. even if the motives are good you have to understand reputation plays a big role in these professions. what do you think will happen if people find out lawyers can just break privilege and hand over info on their client. would you for example be comfortable with tax layers that just hand your banking information over to the IRS anytime they want, even if you don't think you've done anything wrong. it's a very slippery slope and there would be ripple effects.

@juliantapia1407

2 жыл бұрын

@@craigclermond8001 The reputation of publicly allowing an attorney to reveal the location of a criminals dead victims after he's already been sentenced to death, vs the damaging reputation of people outraged at the law, the city, and those in power for not making a concession. The thing about laws are that they need to be bendable of they're to be adaptable. Otherwise you end up with laws that have gaping holes due to a society that does things the lawmakers had no idea were possible

@tigera6

2 жыл бұрын

@@craigclermond8001 First thing first, you need to acknowledge that the current law and justice system in the US is FLAWED, hell even the Constitution from over 200 years ago still being applied is a sign of trouble. People and the society need to grow and adapt into new and more logical solution, not just from the scientific standpoint, but also from the moral and ethical one.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

​@@juliantapia1407 it's very hard to bend the rules just once. hence my point about the reputation of the profession. how do you tell citizens to follow the law/rules if the justice system is allowed to bend them? if you join the legal system you have to abide by the codes of conduct. every profession has them. similarly, as a doctor, you don't choose who to save based on if you think they are good or bad people. laws can be changed, however, that affects the credibility of the profession. who is going to disclose private information to a lawyer they know can make it public anytime. if you don't think reputation matters then you are not realistic. politics is a perfect example of that. people judge and vote based on your history, merits, and credibility, not on good intentions. lawyers are no different.

Shwimmer's sense of duty to Brunner goes way beyond the point of reason here. Bruner gleefully sold Schwimmer out to the prosecution, and Schwimmer still feels protecting his client's secret is worth going to prison over, even though they point out to him that keeping quiet at this point has literally no benefit for himself or Brunner. And once Schwimmer is sent to prison, he's automatically disbarred, which means he's no longer Brunner's lawyer, which means there's no more attorney-client privilege, which means that he no longer has an incentive to keep the location of the bodies a secret. Shwimmer wants to uphold attorney-client privilege and the legal system as a whole? Fine. He was subject to due process, given a trial, found guilty by a jury of his peers, and sentenced accordingly. And he's not a hero for being an accessory after the fact and keeping the location a secret. My headcanon says that he eventually reveals the location while he's in prison, if not also after Brunner is executed, but I seriously doubt it.

"YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN ATTORNEY" bruh he is an attorney lmao

There might be an easy solution to this. If the lawyer went back and opened the lock again then people could probably find them from the smell. Then he wouldn't have to tell anybody or break his oath. Or alternatively he would present his credit card usage to the public. By doing so they could see how much gas he had and thus how far he traveled and which direction he went in.

@winternow2242

9 ай бұрын

Privilege doesn't work that way, limiting only verbal communications. Any communication or actions with the same result would have the same consequences.

And the next year that defense attorney was at Sacred Heart hospital scheming drugs off of Ellot Reid.

I wonder how McCoy, as a prosecutor and member of the bar, can even make that kind of argument

This prosecution is not legally legitimate.

One of those episodes in which I would have preferred Jack to losing instead of winning.

The BS in this episode. No judge would’ve allowed this to go to trial.

I wonder if he ever ended up telling where the bodies are in any future episode

@t.dickerson605

3 жыл бұрын

Well, it WAS only a story -- fiction that was written for entertainment.

@sonrouge

3 жыл бұрын

He did not. And I believe he actually successfully appealed his guilty verdict from this trial.

@daniellefelice7368

3 жыл бұрын

@@t.dickerson605 I know it’s only a story but sometimes (on SVU) they will bring back storylines from season ago with new evidence, suspects and such. It’s just nice to see a story come around and to completion

@biruss

3 жыл бұрын

@@sonrouge good

@DSQueenie

3 жыл бұрын

He’s only in this episode. It’s implied at the end that the prosecutors will release him (as he will never tell them what they want to know) and that he’ll win a future appeal against his conviction.

He would be disbarred. The whole case is an example of public pressure forcing a court case that will not have a winner.

I don't like that he's keeping it a secret where the bodies are buried, but I do admire his principled stance, and he is right on this...

@juliantapia1407

3 жыл бұрын

He's right lawfully, but as stated elsewhere, he could've found multiple ways to divulge the info without implicating himself and avoided this mess.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

@@juliantapia1407 you are looking at it solely from a civilian standpoint but remember you have to also consider it from a professional side. not only would he never work again as a lawyer, but he would also undermine the justice system for a fair trial.

Jack McCoy would be utterly blacklisted from any attorney cooperation if he prosecution this in real life. Lawyers don't like you jailing other lawyers.

He was also in Criminal Intent, another good episode.

They convicted the attorney. As one of the final lines went; "We put the system on trial and the system lost." They could've done a good follow-up with a future defendant refusing to assist in his own defense because he was afraid McCoy would put his lawyer in jail.

the prosecution is wrong here

That series was so well written . They had a great eye for casting too .

Telling a mob what they want to know doesnt make the mob right.

The defendant seems like a nice gentleman.

@bull705

3 жыл бұрын

Watch the whole episode sometime. The nice guy is a shill trying to climb the legal ladder on the back of a serial killer. He got what he deserved

@ryanlee6538

2 жыл бұрын

@@bull705 he said defendant... Durrhhh

The greatest show of all time! Period

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Star Trek: The Next Generation Jean luc Picard

@MattAlbie

2 жыл бұрын

I think even Jean Luc would understand the case to be made for a radical exception. This is not the witch hunt that episode is from after all.

This is one of the few episodes of Law and Order that gives defense attorneys the time to speak their piece in a rational way. That lawyer is doing his job and violating it not only reflects on him, but on law period. Law and Order has a bad habit of making defense attorneys look bad, but they aren’t evil.

3:45 he is DESPERATE to feel important and in control 🤣

Ohhh it’s the husband Soul of Frankie and Grace! Wow he didn’t change in the last decades :o

Never saw this episode. I'm with the defense attorney on this one.

On rewatching this, I wonder if McCoy did not make a promise at the very end and whether that promise is ethical or legal. He stated that the people could overlook an ethics violation. He is "the people" and seems to be suggesting the current charges would be dropped and perhaps any others. He, however, has no power with respect to bar sanctions or even disbarrment, but seem to suggest that that would not be an issue. Also seems like the kind of case Adam Schiff would have said to either let go or find another way.

The guy that played the serial killer, I don’t know where he did his research but he was a real creep in this role

It's evil like this is why those nearly endless appeals should not be allowed...

@cma1676

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but the issue is for the innocent ones who need the chance of many appeals, is it not?

@Deborahtunes

3 жыл бұрын

@@cma1676 ~ With today's DNA, and it's continuing advances, they are not needed as much as they once were...

@Deborahtunes

3 жыл бұрын

@@cma1676 ~ The main problem now is crooked prosecutors and defense attorney's who are just trying to make a name for themselves, by ignoring the evidence. But in cases like this one, where there is no question of guilt, there should be no appeals...

@cma1676

3 жыл бұрын

@@Deborahtunes I think, but may be wrong as I do not live in the US, that many cases are not trialed and the people not well informed of their rights, and that a huge amount of DNA evidence is never tested or entered in the system.

@Deborahtunes

3 жыл бұрын

@@cma1676 ~ Well here it's different. Criminals have more rights than their victims do. It's not right...

Ritchie Coster is a fabulous and unfairly neglected actor.

what an eccentric performance!

This was definitely a conundrum.

That is the Jack McCoy I know. The law only works when it suits HIM.

Your ethics as a man are greater than your ethics as a lawyer. Yes he'd be disbarred and could never work as an attorney again, but a man as smart as an attorney can turn his life around from that easily

@funaccount7665

2 жыл бұрын

If you spent years of your life and thousands upon thousands of dollars to become an attorney would you just give up all you sacrificed that easily? if anyone else in that court room was in his place I doubt it people are inherently selfish.

@tylerw3023

2 жыл бұрын

@@funaccount7665 Yes, to give hundreds of families closure and information about who a serial killer killed. 100%

@Dee-sz4jc

2 жыл бұрын

@@tylerw3023 Thank god you aren't an attorney because you would jeopardize so many cases with your 1 action.

@tylerw3023

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dee-sz4jc Fr plus I'd also have to go to law school

Is it common for a serial killer to be put up for parole after 25 years because to me that sounds really light considering how the USA usually practices "LAW"

I've always wanted a follow up episode where we see what happened to that lawyer who went to prison on principal...

I understand both sides of the argument cuz it doesn't matter what you tell your attorney they can't disclose anything he could only say anything if his client permits him to and the people have a right to know what happened to the bodies but you can't charge him to force him to break privilege he should quit as an attorney then tell them since he technically wouldn't be an attorney and wouldn't be held by privilege

@bzh7648

9 ай бұрын

I think an individual can still be disbarred and sued for their past employment. He could quit and decide to renew his career at a later date, if he weren’t disbarred. I think the attorney’s best bet would have been to unlock the storage area and find some way for it to be discovered.

Bruner on LAW and ORDER; makes William on SVU, seem like a Cub scout....

That lawyer should NOT have been prosecuted! This was completely unfair given the canon of ethics for lawyers.

"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat?" - A Man of All Seasons

Isn't there an exception to these attorney-client privileges if the client is an admitted serial killer? It's a serious question I don't study law.

@sonrouge

3 жыл бұрын

Nope. Only exceptions involve protection of life or aiding in a future crime.

@snickims9717

3 жыл бұрын

@@sonrouge yep, and with the bodys already in the ground and the man arrested he had no legal ground to stand on in terms of telling the prosecution

@davidholmgren8156

3 жыл бұрын

If Bruner had been released the Attorney could probably reveal the locations (considering that he was a serial killer who would likely kill again) but with him locked up there aren’t any exceptions really

@jonsouth1545

2 жыл бұрын

@@snickims9717 What they should have done is contact the bar association and see if they were willing to wave privilege in this case it's a long shot but it's better than what they did.

@craigclermond8001

2 жыл бұрын

no because if you do it for one case it opens the door for all cases. doesn't even have to be a serial killer. there would be no trust in the justice system after that. if am a defendant even if am innocent there needs to be trust between my lawyer and me. its not just guilty people who would suffer. it could also be abused, how do you determine which cases that it would be acceptable.

This does not make sense at all, why did a judge allow this in court, the prosecutor is wrong here.

This cuts out the most important answer. "Shame on them"

I had a thought while watching this. Mr. Schwimmer has sold his soul to Mr. Brunor in exchange for the opportunity to see where those bodies are. But because there is no way to enforce the contract, he can renege and reclaim his soul while retaining the knowledge about where the bodies are. All it will cost him is the career he has worked towards for his entire adult life.

@rhuephus

2 жыл бұрын

ha ha .. can't sell something that doesn't exist

@t-rexcellentreviews1663

Жыл бұрын

Tough luck, sometimes careers go down the toilet, sometimes dreams die, sometimes it’s just time to tell the people what they want to know.