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@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

Did you ever see him play not highlights? This guy was every bit the dribbler that Pistol was and a better passer.. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fp-kj9KjY8rgecY.html

@thespyderwithin

2 ай бұрын

Hypothetically, how many more games would his teams have won/points would he have scored with a 3pt line?

@craigwheeler4760

2 ай бұрын

Several things that Pistol Pete did were his own inventions. He was very creative. I'd say he's the father of the deep 3pt shot, not Steph Curry. That is due to a study done on film of his games in college and the pros. The LSU historian who measured Pete's shots during the 69 season at LSU found out that over 1/3 of his shots came from downtown. It's the reason his shooting percentage wasn't that great. He shot 44% or so, but he was taking so many deep shots. I'd say he would've been over 40% from 3pts land if he'd been playing in the 80's during his prime. This was a man so talented, he made the Hall of Fame in essentially 8 full seasons of play. That's hard to do. Oh, and that film study done on Pete during college? It found that if the 3pts line were around during his day, his 44 pts per game average would shoot upward to around 57 pts per game. That means, he was making 13 shots from 21+ feet out per night! www.sportskeeda.com/college-basketball/news-pete-maravich-college-stats-how-pistol-pete-s-legendary-career-look-3-point-line#:~:text=And%20he%20calculated%20that%20with,That%20guy%20is%20unbelievable.%22

@craigwheeler4760

Ай бұрын

When people ask me who's the best fit for the Archetype of Pete Maravich in the 21st century, I say "Steph Curry" Pistol Pete shot about half of his shots from 21+ feet out from the rim. Can you imagine Pete taking a time machine and joining up with Klay and Steph Curry on the 2016 Warriors? That team would've been the best outside shooting team ever.

The man died playing basketball at a church, the two things he loved most. A poetic way to go for an eccentric artist.

@theghosttourmusic7156

6 ай бұрын

I’m a hoops junkie and never knew this!

@KappaMikeyTSF

6 ай бұрын

God saw how much he was trashing those people that Pete got personally invited to ball in Heaven.

@MrOctober44

6 ай бұрын

Great point/observation

@thisisacat1429

6 ай бұрын

My middle school bible teacher was actually there and he died in his arms waiting for the paramedics

@Smoothyoki

6 ай бұрын

@@thisisacat1429ok buddy

After watching this, I had to dig up Wilt's book: "And in basketball, men of color have all the style...Even Larry Bird, a consummate pro, great in every single phase of the game, doesn't have nearly the style that Michael Jordan has...The one exception I can come up with is the late great "Pistol Pete" Maravich. I don't know where the hell he got his flair, but he sure had it."

@jubjubhenry5612

6 ай бұрын

I don’t think MJ was a more stylish player than Larry Bird at all but hey I’m not Wilt.

@Dotsetc

6 ай бұрын

@@jubjubhenry5612Well you're also not Bird because he said it himself too lol. Bird was skilled as hell but stylish in his play style is different. He mostly had flair with his passing and ofc shooting but he wasnt an overall stylish player IMO. Bird mostly played like a hyper skilled workhorse.

@jubjubhenry5612

6 ай бұрын

@@Dotsetc Bird definitely never said anything like that like why even say that 😂

@Dotsetc

6 ай бұрын

@@jubjubhenry5612 He never literally said it, but did so in multiple ways over the years.

@jubjubhenry5612

6 ай бұрын

@@Dotsetc I just don’t think that Larry thought MJ was a more “stylish” player than he was like that’s sort of a weird thing to believe and it would be weird for Larry to think that and I doubt that’s something he ever thought about. He probably thought MJ was special and an athletic freak but not skilled enough yet or able to make his team better which is why he wasn’t afraid of MJ. Even when Larry was post prime like the game winner over Scottie and MJ in 89-90 or the 90-91 game where he outplayed Mike in an epic duel. It’s ok to think MJ was something or other but I wouldn’t try and recruit Larry into your argument, he definitely didn’t think MJ was better than him.

Magic Johnson himself said and admitted that he molded his playstyle after Pistol Pete Maravich. That should tell people more than enough. Maravich was 'the forefather' of Showtime.

@luizansounds

4 ай бұрын

Pistol Pete unironically may have invented a huge part of movie used today by himself, because of how he was a living basketball playbook

@craigwheeler4760

2 ай бұрын

Maravich was the forefather of the deep 3 pts sniper too. In college 13/18 shots he took and made were from 22+ feet out. Did you know, that the only time in his career that he got a 3pts line, in the 1980 season.. as a washed up injured old man, Pete made 67% of his 3 pts attempts off the bench? In his prime he was knocking down 3pts shots and distances as well as Steph Curry today

Pistol Pete is the ultimate showman. Way ahead of his time.

@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

Have you ever seen this guy play? Every bit the dribbler that Pistol was and a better passer. Pass first PG as opposed to a shoot first PG. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fp-kj9KjY8rgecY.html

As an athlete, Pete's love of the game is one the purest, most uninfluenced by the business, or the public side of professional sports. From his childhood, to his big breaks, to his losses and his wins, and to the very end, everything about the life he lived was in dedication to the game he loved. A timeless story for the ages.

A man who can turn haters into supporters, the emost underrated youtuber of all time, you already know that once i click on a vid imma watch it

There is a serious lack of quality Pete maravich videos on YT. You did a great job on this.

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

Hey...it was a long time ago!...but you can find Pete's 68 point (no 3pt line) performance against the Knicks, on youtube. It is incredible to watch. He took several shots from 30+feet, and made them all.

@Noir_Man

2 ай бұрын

thx. ill check it out @@curbozerboomer1773

“I am going to land this plane” has me in tears 😂

Well landed, sir.

@donaldf9055

6 ай бұрын

1 day ago wtf??????

Also, one of only two guys to have his jersey retired by THREE different teams (Hawks, Jazz, Pelicans). The other is Wilt (Warriors, Sixers, Lakers).

Pete Maravich. Clayton Crowley. Men of style.

Maravich was DECADES ahead of his time. When his name is brought up even today amongst pros, they always give huge props. I've been a fan of Maravich for Three decades. His style is perfectly suited for today's game. He is a guy that is worth studying for any serious student of basketball.

I was lucky to see the Pistol play live Jazz vs Lakers 1977-78 season ! Two weeks after that day my Dad put up a hoop on our garage where I got pretty good shooting. Today I’m a shooting coach 😊

I had to look up the game-by-game of Maravich's senior year to figure out how the fuck he got 44ppg and the lowest he scored that season was TWENTY NINE POINTS. without a 3 point line. How the hell

@lymphomasurvive

6 ай бұрын

He would have scored 100 points with a 3 point line.

@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

He took 70% of the shots.

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

@@Gnofg He was a gunner--but a very accurate one!

@Gnofg

2 ай бұрын

@@curbozerboomer1773 He was not the best shooter in the NBA when he played. There were multiple better shooters than him. Go look at Brian Winters.

@cliffhuxtable7997

2 ай бұрын

@@Gnofgwhy u hating

As a Louisiana Native. No name rings higher in our sports history than Pistol Pete.

Clayton, I swear what makes your videos so special is how well yoy pace each and every video and truly understand how to keep us on the edge of our seats the whole time. Keep it up brother!

@principleswise9749

5 ай бұрын

*True!*

It’s been an honor to watch you grow as a filmmaker/content creator over the years. Keep doing what you’re doing. Your stuff is the highest quality out there.

I coach little league and have kept Pistol's impact on basketball alive 50 years after his prime.

I saw him play at Madison Square Garden, LSU versus Marquette. He got a standing ovation for the passes he threw during the layup line pregame!

The best thing I've seen on pistol pete. You caught what he was perfectly, his oddity, his enormous talent, and his ability to entertain. Don't want to be melodramatic, but it seemed like he was born for greatness and tragedy. Your video creatively captures all this.

my high school librarians husband (bill “fig” newton) was roommates, teammates, and friends with pete and the stories he has are amazing. he’s even mentioned in the book “pistol: the life of pete maravich”. pete’s one of the goats for sure

Clayton. You are the best man. Love you for everything you do

In courts of hardwood, Pistol Pete did gleam, A maestro with the ball, a basketball dream, With dribbles, spins, and passes, oh so pristine, He made the game of hoops a joyous scene. Through the twine, his shots would softly hum, A virtuoso's touch, each one a drum, With a grin on his face, he'd make you come undone, Pistol Pete Maravich, the game's true fun. In sneakers and shorts, he danced with grace, With skills that left defenders in their place, To watch him play was an artful embrace, Pistol Pete made basketball a thrilling chase.

@tylerbuck9347

6 ай бұрын

Epic 0-0

@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

Did you ever see this guy play? Every bit the dribbler and a better passer. Pass first PG vs a shoot first PG. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fp-kj9KjY8rgecY.html

@principleswise9749

5 ай бұрын

*Wow!!! Great poem!!! Well deserved for the great Pistol!*

In college there was no shot clock..Dan Issel at the HOF told kids in the audience Pete was the best he had ever seen. Had Dr J been allowed to play at Atlanta.. Basketball would have been saved prior to Bird and Magic. Can you imagine Dr J and Pete playing together???

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

No...such great offensive players would not really share the ball!

@BrianKiddDevDesign

Ай бұрын

@@curbozerboomer1773 Actually, those who witnessed the preseason games Pete and DR J played together said that The Pistol became more of an assist man when Dr J was on the floor. The two played off each other and almost had a telepathic connection. It is without question that Atlanta would have won a championship if Dr J was allowed to stay in Atlanta.

Clayton, I don't know of a single KZread creator that can end a video as well as you. Whether it's wordplay, a call-back, a profound quote or an insightful observation (usually accompanied with the perfect music choice (The 'making the case' for LeBron James still gives me chills)), you have truly mastered the craft of constructing an ending. Thank you for the work you do and the effort you put in. Your videos are a pleasure and watching them is time well spent.

Ain't nothin like a Clayton Crowley upload👌🏾 And congrats on 100k🤧

I absolutely loved this! as a young kid I first watched pistol on VHS and then on KZread and would practice his drills for hours even before I knew how good he actually was as a player.

God your videos fill me with such joy. Another great one Clayton. Side note LSU has and will always have the coolest athletes of any college

your videos are part of the reason i got into basketball and nba, thank you for your content

I took my youngest brother to Pete’s jersey retirement at the Salt Palace. He was stunned by the highlight reel. He had never seen anything like it. As Pete stepped up to the microphone I yelled down “Give Him A Contract “!!! Pete looked up and flashed me a smile. That Jazz reel would be nice to see. It was one of the best put together. But there are so many. Somebody posted one of Pete faking Phil Jackson out of his shoes on a pass the other day. There are just so many. Rich Kelly was a really intelligent nice guy whose knees finally betrayed him. Lou was a ball hog who hated Pete. Pete was the best I have ever seen and all those Bird passes and shots Pete did them first while Larry watched on TV. You read comments on posts and one I read the other day was at a post NBA exhibition Pete made three from 40ft then made the fourth underhanded soft ball style. Best that’s ever been.

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

In Seattle, the sonic's "Downtown" Freddie Brown, said that Maravich was one of those rare players, that-when they were on a roll, would become unstoppable.

Great as always! One thing: Pistol and Dr. J. were bright lights, but 70s bball wasn't as bad as you make out. David Thompson, George Gervin, prime sky hook Kareem, the Big E, Wilt and West Lakers, well-oiled Knicks machine, Clyde and Willis, Bobby D, and on and on - I loved it. If you weren't there, you don't know.

@gabecox3548

6 ай бұрын

would love a video about david thompson the skywalker, a somewhat forgotten legend

@titankiller5287

6 ай бұрын

Objectively a weak era but every era has stars, and the 70’s wasn’t any different

@jaybee5269

6 ай бұрын

I don't think it was a weak era at all; there just wasn't a dominant team (only the Knicks and Celtics won two championship and not back to back) and there was only one dominant player, who was grumpy and aloof (Kareem). That didn't help with marketing. But there were only 22 teams in 1979-80 (after the ABA/NBA merger in 76) as opposed to 27 teams in 89-90 and 29 teams in 99-00. This expansion diluted talent and played into the hands of just a few dominant teams. And personalities like Magic and Jordan (plus the Bird/Magic, Lakers/Celtics rivalry) made marketing much easier. @@titankiller5287

@ranholic5027

6 ай бұрын

70s had stars yeah but it is also the weakest era and when someone as Kareem wins the mvp with a losing record and missed the playoffs then you know its a sht era lmaoo

@jaybee5269

6 ай бұрын

It was an era of parity with no one dominant team, so MVPs were more about individual merit than team records. Remember Kareem continued to dominate in the 80s when he was in his 30s.@@ranholic5027

I love the Marty McFly comparison. That's just so right on the money... 👍🏻

you easily make the best basketball videos on youtube my boi

Please do one of these about Sidney Moncrief. Not nearly enough people talk about that dude. Then, if you wanna get wild, do one about Craig Hodges. Wild stuff there. Loved the video btw. Glad to see you in my feed again.

He looks like Christian Bale, when he's on the Jazz.

Pistol Pete is my favorite player of all time. He is what made me a 3 point shooter trying to shoot the farthest on every court. I couldn’t dare be as good of a dribbler but he heavily influenced me and still does. People talk about the greatest dribbler’s and suck off Kyrie but never give respect to people like Pistol, who in my opinion are better because it’s not how many moves you have or if you can break your defenders ankles but how unbelievable tough it is to steal the ball from you and today’s players pale in comparison to a Pete Maravich, Bob Cousy, Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas etc.

@benlazzopina-wy9om

6 ай бұрын

no way you're telling me bob cousy has better handles than steph curry

@lukekiefer5964

6 ай бұрын

@@benlazzopina-wy9omHave you ever watched Cousy? He’s probably the most creative passer ever. Also don’t forget how absolutely strict dribbling was back then. Cousy would be a wizard in any era, especially today.

@xsjado_anon

6 ай бұрын

​@@benlazzopina-wy9omSteph in Bob's era would foul out in the first 10 minutes for carrying, as would almost everyone post Iverson. It's like saying Lewis Hamilton would beat Senna in a race because you notice that a 2020 Mercedes F1 car is faster than a 1988 McLaren - no sh*t that's the case, but you can't compare them that way unless you're severely mentally handicapped, you need to account for the differences in era - I wouldn't say a driver in 2020 is better because he drives closer to the limit than a driver in the 60s, because it's not a fair comparison when the risk for the modern driver is a slightly embarrassing trip through the run-off area, where the risk to the 60s driver was straight death, after watching 3 of his mates die already this season alone. My apologies for using motorsports as the comparison, but I hope it made sense.

@AHMAD-2324

6 ай бұрын

​@@lukekiefer5964Bob Cousy could only dribble with his right hand.

@suppressed_viii

6 ай бұрын

@@xsjado_anondumbass, you can’t foul out on carries

I was at a game between the knicks and N.O. Jazz where he scored 68 puts in the win.Even "Clyde" couldn't stop him.Unbeleivable performance by "Pistol Pete."

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

That game is on KZread...every skeptical person regarding Maravich needs to watch that game...after awhile, the commentators on duty ran out of words to describe what Pete was doing that night!

This is exactly the video i was looking for, thanks clayton

Pete’s job as crazy as it sounds was not to win games. His job was to put on a show. If he showed up and played like Jerry West and won more people would’ve gone home disappointed.

Thanks for this one Clayton. Pete is legend, I appreciate you telling his story

There is an interview of Pistol on youtube where he gets asked about the criticism he gets for being a poor defender and he said something like: "I look at the stat sheet, and I score 45 and the other guy scores 15, who's supposed to be guarding who?".

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

There is another comment by Pete, after a call by a ref, when Pete somehow did a double, hesitation, behind the back pass, to himself...and then scored a layup. The ref called traveling...to which Pete shouted--"You cannot call that!...you have never even seen a move like that before!"...It is a hilarious comment, and Pete was right, of course.

Another spectacular video. Well done Clayton.

The only real “what if” about pistol Pete is what if he played in a league with a 3 point shot

@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

You do know that Pistol wasn't close to the best shooter back then.

@arizjones

5 ай бұрын

Or if he didn't have knee injuries and had a decent team around him.

@arizjones

5 ай бұрын

@@Gnofg So who was the best OUTSIDE shooter of that time?

@Gnofg

5 ай бұрын

@@arizjones Probably Rick Barry. There were multiple better shooters than the Pistol. Bill Bradley, Jack Marin come to mind.

@Gnofg

5 ай бұрын

@@arizjones He was a ballhog and in that era it contributed to his teams playing poorly. This guy was the equal to Pistol as far as dribbling and a better passer. He was a pass first PG. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fp-kj9KjY8rgecY.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/pGdhtbx8Ys7Ycso.html

That scene from back to the future is the perfect example and description of the phenomenon that was Pistol Pete. He did the Rondo fake behind the back pass back then. Dude had ball handling drills that are very similar to players today like Stephen Curry and Kyrie Irvin's drills he was way ahead of his time and when you realize he scored 44 points a game in college you realized this man was phenomenal it's sad he didn't be a career it wasn't as good as he was as good as anybody who ever played the game when he was on top of his game.

00:34 Exactly dude! Right on the money! The perfect description for Pete Maravich. One of the truly, truly greatest!

"One long show" - outstanding landing to an excellent film-tribute.

Clayton you damn genius. You have an amazing way of telling the stories of basketball. Keep it up.

My first memories of basketball involve watch Wilt vs Russell on TV with my father and grandfather, as well as the great Wooden UCLA teams, but the guy that made me fall in love with the game was Pistol. To this day, my two favorite players are Pistol and Dr J.

@Gnofg

6 ай бұрын

Then you have to remember this guy. He was every bit the dribbler that the Pistol was and a much better passer. He was a pass first PG vs a shoot first PG. Pistol was ball hog. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fp-kj9KjY8rgecY.html

The Left Coronary Artery (LCA) supplies two-thirds of the blood supply to the myocardium. He did all that with only one-third of the blood supply to his heart than most other people. Staggering.

Your videos are so good to watch I can’t get enough I think I’ve watched the goat debate videos 3 times over

That was a great video! Really enjoyed watching 👍

Man, I had never seen some of these clips before. Insane! He was so ahead of his time.

Great video man congrats on 100k

This is a brilliant analogy. A cogent and accurate portrait of Pete. The Ben Franklin simile is FUUUUNNY. My two favorite players - guys I tried to emulate - Pete and The Doctor - and you gave light to them both accurately. Either of these guys would be #1,2,3,4,5 of any top ten play of the day EVERY FUCKING day. Most skilled all time = Pete. Most electric with the ball on the wing of all time = Dr. J. NONE of anyone I've seen since then, not Jordan, not Magic, not even Kobe were as magical and incredible as those two mutherfuckers. This takes nothing away from other great players, it just wasn't as original nor as unexpected or unbelievable as those guys. "They don't pay you 2 million dollars for a two- handed chest pass." - Pete Maravich. And Dr. J dunked on 7 footers regularly, often and without hesitation...over and over and over again. Thank you for this. Basketball didn't start with ESPN and cable tv in 1980.

1 OF THE MOST UNDERRATED EVER 💯😮‍💨

Dude I’ve only seen this video of yours and the other one you did about Robert Horry and I wanna say that you are freaking hilarious and entertaining!!! Love watching your videos, definitely going to subscribe

This series is great. As a relatively new fan of the game I really appreciate the vids on the lesser know figures of the sport

Yo, you’re the most underrated person in the community.

Thanks Clayton! Wonderful showing Pistol in this light.

Kicking ass as always my friend! Great video.

Clayton I'm surprised you didn't mention, in an interview Pistol Pete was 26 years old and said I don't want to be known as playing basketball for 10 years and die at the age of 40 from a heart attack. Oddly enough that is exactly what happened to him. Which kind of brings me back to your reference of Marty McFly, it's almost as if he always knew what was going to happen in the future Pistol Pete was definitely ahead of his time, there's some other great footage of him. There's a fun video of him and George Gervin playing horse😊 anyways thanks for another great video Clayton as always you have the best basketball videos. Thank you

Amazing video! Thanks for bringing attention to a legend who isn’t talked about enough.

Best ball handler I've ever seen

A true underrated legend, the rivalry between him and "iceman" Gervin to come up with the most ridiculous shots and dribbles were truly ahead of their time.

I saw Pete play in the Superdome for the jazz… It was extraordinary!

Hey Clayton, really big fan on your work. Love how you do video analysis on deeper sides of basketball going into players life and impact on the game. Anyways could you talk about the documentary hoop dreams? I think it’s a pretty profound doc and would love to hear your take

I absolutely loved him when I was in college (1971-75). Sporting News cover "Hot Tune". Hawks, Jazz were my teams when I was a young man growing up in Connecticut, even when the Knicks and Celtics were the teams to beat. The Celtics came to Hartford Civic Center to play the Pistol and the Jazz March 10th 1976.....Maravich tore the Celtics up that game winning by 18. Pistol's triple/triple scoring 36 with 10 assists and 11 rebounds. He was a lot of fun to watch!

Beautiful essay as always

One of the funniest episodes u have made, really good.

Fantastic video Clayton!!!You done put your brains, heart, soul and feet up in this one. Pistol Pete was Da Man "fo-sho"!!!

Such a beautiful video. I'm so glad i've fallen in love with this sport and that i'm able to appreciate a video like this. Pistol Pete, a revolutionary. Ahead of his time. Impactful beyond words.

7:48 pm Clayton, thank you for making this video, as I had advised you to do! 😉 Pete was a groundbreaker, and basketball needed him, for the things that were to come! And, I think Pete knew that, somehow. Just like we need you! You, are our groundbreaker! Aunt Gail

Another phenomenal video!

One of the greatest ever!!

Appreciate him getting love. Seems like if he were in a different time or situation he would be held in much higher regard. He gets some respect but I never see him in any all time rankings. It’s like “yeah he was cool” but he’s never put up there with other greats. If he had played in any era after the 70’s I think he’d get way more love.

Well done Clayton!!!

Beyond his legendary style and creativity, Clayton also had a pretty ad transition in this one

That clip at 1:58 I swear I've seen it a thousand times.

When Pete retired, he continued his strict diet and grueling exercise regimen "i want to be the oldest one to play the game. I'll be playing hoops when I'm 100."

@curbozerboomer1773

2 ай бұрын

Maybe his strict diet(excepting the booze!) was what kept him from not having a heart attack much earlier, than age 40.

13:17 underhand hook legendary!

Good shit, absolutely beautiful video good work

Pistol was the 1st handle point, his vids helped plenty of hoopers world wide, thank you pistol!❤

Amazing player. Fun to watch. Very skilled. Ridiculous.

The greatest ball handler of all time. Can you imagine a team with him and Chamberlain with both in their prime?? Pete was the Barry Sanders of basketball. Superstar talent on a Washington Generals level team

“I’m Going to Land this F****** Plane” ✅😂

Basketball prodigy when flashy basketball is not yet discovered

imagine if this dude played with a 3 point line. or imagine if he did get to play with a prime Dr. J

Great vid. Nice landing

This is one guy I wish I got to see play in person. I don’t feel the highlights we see do him justice.

@michaelmccormack494

6 ай бұрын

They don't. I was courtside for about 35 of his prime pro years' games -- '74 through '77, in New Orleans. This is the one man about whom, of whom, communication must fail. This was Harry Houdini performing totally implausible sleights-of-hand without any subterfuge. I tell you, man: It was right there in front of us all... blimey, what a rush.

😂😂 Clayton you have me in stitches! This is my first time watching this video and I stopped it as soon as I heard you say" I bet he wasn't as good as pistol fucking Pete was!" With emphasis😂😂 you are the best!!

mfer refuses to make a bad video

@donaldf9055

6 ай бұрын

Ong

You're writing is sooo good!

All in all, man, you did a real good job with this story about Pete. Yeah, I knew, but it's still nice hearing someone else say it. Pete was a phenomenon, One of One !

Any other player have their nickname printed on the back of their jersey?

I swear that jump shot at 1:45 is super familiar to one Klay Thompson's.

My dad had me watch two vhs tapes to learn to be a good basketball player- the Dr J video and the Maravich one. And sometimes one with Red Auerbach 😆

bro his handle is solid, he run the dribbles like John Stockton, and move the ball like Larry Bird

great vid!

First off, I love your legends series. I’m curious if you plan on going over some other legends like Barkley, Hakeem, etc?(sorry if these are basic)