Agree totally with your final assessment. In close formation, use primarily overarm. In single combat use whichever gives you an advantage in the particular scenario.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

It depends on use to which is better or will work better :D

It's sad to think that fighting techniques from the Greeks were not preserved in someway. A lot of the information has been lost and not passed down through the generations. The same can be said for a lot of traditional warfare and martial arts. At least these videos help us to understand what might have been done. So much credit to Thrand and Eldgrim. I enjoy these a lot. Thanks guys

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

You welcome. That is what we are here to do try our best to know how are ancestors lived and fought :D

I keep thinking of the choreographed duel in Troy. I have to watch it again, because watching you now, I think I remember at least a few sliding throw-thrusts in that.

This is about the power and speed that can be achieved and not just for phalanx or shield wall. Look up my other videos on the subject I test it with a more rigid shield style in previous videos. Overarm Vs. Underarm Spear in Greek / Spartan Phalanx : Thrand's Spear Sliding Style Tested kzread.info/dash/bejne/fah9stJmnZmfcrw.html Special reply to Michael Babbage about Overarm Spear Thrust in Phalanx or Shield Walls kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYdsma2LhLKTiJc.html

Port Kapul Thanks I try not to keep making replies unless I believe I missed something have more information or ideas or it really need to be tested further. I listen to viewer opinions and if they give ideas or complaints I take all into consideration before I reply back.

Thanks for the very informative videos, guys. I recently found a HEMA group here in southeastern Virginia that I never knew existed and I am super excited to start out. I have been "studying" this stuff on the internet for years and I really am stoked to learn some hands-on stuff. I digress though. My point is, your tests and demonstrations are so appreciated. Keep it coming guys. Cheers from Virginia Beach

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Gratz on finding a group and glad you enjoyed the video we listen to our viewers and redo test if they find them not conclusive for what ever reason.

Clearly throwing the spear like that works better than simply pushing. Speed and velocity creates more power it's basic physics. Bravo warriors

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Thank you and from my testing it most certainly does work more efficiently in speed and initial impact and piercing.

Found your channel from your "ice pick vs. saber grip" chat with Skallagrim. So far i like it :)

Well thought out, executed nicely. Picture o greek helmate was useful for supporting your argument. :-) One problem I have still is that no one seems able to provide a logical explanation on Hoplight Phlanax warfare which doesn't involve what seem like very impractical technique or something that would cause injury to friendly's with the butt spike. Got any thoughts ThegnThrand?

the thing here is that in your tets you move your shield a lot. how would these tets perform when you are surrounded be people both at your sides and behind you and without moving your shield?

Perhaps you should try it in a phalanx or shield wall like formation since that's how it was used. That might convince the skeptics or prove you wrong depending on the results it might need 4 or 5 people but that might be the best test because its more about what you can use in the lack of space than what has the most impact. The tight formation was the most important thing so they could stay alive. Might be nice to try

and about how close was the formation. If the idea of the formation was to stop your pirate friends from going off to do their own thing in the middle of the fight then I think we should ask: how much close would you need them to be for everyone to notice they just left the formation?

Throw, then at the end when it makes contact you can retain grip and either push or retract. Underhand or overhand.

Keep up the good work, guys! I've always been confused by how the phalanx and the tercio worked. Any chance that we'll see demonstrations of how men fought in a shield wall, or how a line of pikemen worked? BTW, I laughed so hard at the "Oh, shit!" in slow-mo, that I woke up my wife!

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

He He why I left it in :D

In a tight formation, holding the spear midway means the butt spike is more likely to hit the guys behind you, especially if held at head height. Plus, if the spear tip was knocked, the other side would swing around and hit your teammates.

@purpleanex

8 жыл бұрын

"teammates" ??!?!?

Great vid.

very nice informative demonstration, thx again!

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Thanks we try our best :P

acuerdox That is not the main Idea to the close formation it is to maintain and tight defense and have more spears avaible to attack will not being hit from the sides you self or being flanked from front angles. If ti is a loose formation and enemy rushes they can break up you group wile maintain cohesion and tear you apart with causality. No one will just break formation willingly in a Phalanx against Phalanx or shield Wall against shield wall formation. Well unless they wanted to retreat I guess lol

I remember watching Loyd's video about over arm vs underarm, and he makes a great case that by using under arm you can more easily take advantage of the length of the weapon better than you can with over arm. Having said that I can easily see a case for both being used, under arm used primarily in the prodding stage of battle. As the battle proceeds, though, I could see the soldiers shifting to an over arm grip to shorten the reach of their spear and also keep the back half of their weapons from interfering with the people behind them. Was one grip more preferred over another though? I really cannot say for certain but I am guessing it's around the area of 50/50

What can penetrate better? A standard Co2 pellet gun or a rapier?

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Depends on FPS of pellet gun but I would say a well done rapier thrust :D

This is a much better test. Thank you.

That underarm over the shield really does smell like lance enthusiasm haha :)

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

:D

I hope you do a similar test with a Macedonian sarissa. With a counterweight at the back and moving it back and forth as a piston it will be devastating. If you can manage to move 5.5 kg 7 m/s the kinetic energy will be 134 J. Do you have a chronograph? I'm really interested in the speed and weight of that spear?

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

I really want to get chronograph would be awesome for these test. If any one has one to donate out there or would like to donate money on patreon for that purpose it would be most helpful. We have a paypal as well ThegnThrand@Yahoo.com

@anachronisticon

6 жыл бұрын

In the absence of a chronograph, you could try what I've seen done elsewhere in the literature, where people use the known length of the object (probably with marked tape at known intervals) and record it on camera and count how far the intervals on a the spear travel between several frames. Given the speed of the camera in frames per second it should be possible to get accurate data. For an example of the process (though they also use a radar gun for comparison's sake) this paper is fascinating too: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20555563.2017.1301133

I find overarm better for power. I think both would be difficult to perform with overlapping shields.

I think it's important to add in that the underarm is more effective if you're using it two handed, it makes alot more sense that way. A good example of this is pikemen of course, phalanx, and you could imagine a situation where some types of hellenic and scythian/parthian lancers who used the weapon known as "kontos" might be dismounted and have to use a huge spear on foot. Not to mention that spears and lances were often used underarm on horseback, but there's some evidence for overarm on horseback as well, it's kind of inconclusive topic. My opinion is that you might use both, but it depends on the context and situation, but also on other factors like time period, armor, the particular spear, and on your opponent.

Hey guys, cool vid! What are your thoughts on potential for training? The movement is a lot like actual Olymppic spear throwing, right? If we look at Olympic athletes, the velocities they achieve are a lot greater than what any amateur does who takes up the spear for the first time. So, if you were to spend lots and lots of time just training to become a better spear thrower, how much do you think you could improve?

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

I believe throwing for accuracy and and power would improve this form of technique.

Good work! Just don't forget not to expose your right side as well your fellow hoplite standing to your left! Suggest to be "tighter" with the hoplon / ασπίς, have you filmed any work on the use of the hoplon shield? Your conclusion is correct I believe. Congratulations from Greece!

@Thrand11

8 жыл бұрын

+EyesGreen1 Thanks we have done many more videos testing out this technique as well. Here is a playlist of the overarm slide technique used to its fullest and tested. kzread.info/dash/bejne/l55rssOmitrSc6g.html

Scott Freeman Good question the weapon was also based on what armour the attacker was attacking not just wearing. Sword and shield does have an advantage in single combat against two handed weapons. If spear and shield is used correctly it can gain advantage against pole weapons in single combat but there is also the factor of how much armour was used by the warriors as well. Two handed weapons are uses to attack pole weapons that are trapped like Claymores can supposedly cleave through such trapped poles. The Claymore could also kill mounts and mounted warriors and the use of the weapon could involve choking up in grip grappling half-swording ect to make it more viable in single combat even with out heavy armour. Two handed weapons have more power and can be heavier giving more force to the cut or attack and reach. So between all those ad vantages they give up the shield shield for reach and power but lose some defense though. If the extra reach or power is necessary to kill efficiently then it could be chosen over a one handed weapons. This goes for swords and pole weapons. The shield will always be more defensing in single combat but two handed weapons can be used well in groups of combinations of shieldmen, pole weapons and other two handed swords like claymores.

Great video Thrand; I've got a detailed question that I'm having difficulty finding an answer to: How would a spear/polearm fare against a foe weilding a spear and shield? It seems to me that the polearm/two-handed spear technique evolved in the Middle ages, not in ancient or dark age warfare. So it could be argued that this was because armor was better and the shield was no longer necessary. However, not all of the fighters wielding polearms were wearing plate armor. And Scottish clansmen wielded two handed swords - they certainly didnt have plate armor either. So why the switch? Is a spear wielded with both hands better than a spear and shield? It seems to me thaty when the spear is wielded one-handed, it is slower because it takes longer to rechamber after a thrust. And what about two handed swords versus sword and shield?

the grip where the spear rest up under the armpit, looks more like the lance grip used on horseback

Another fantastic addition, Thrand! (: I think your original video about the different methods regarding power showed us that there might not be a *huge* difference in power in either grip, only so long as you can really pull it back and throw all your force into it. As we saw here, underarm could still be pretty strong if you do the same, the issue is formation. You wouldn't pull that off very well in a close grouping, and your targets with underarm much worse off. Demo isn't wrong in thinking you can get strength with underarm too, but I do think his idea of the high-underarm, thumb-forward prodding combat is really inefficient, especially compared to the overarm gigging. You also can't parry as well from that stance. You bring up a couple of really great points, Thrand, namely that curious turning of the shin you see in pottery, which I think could very well be part of a windup. It also makes *perfect* sense for these spearmen in single/loose combat to try and use the strike which they think the opponent isn't guarding. Great work! Hopefully warmer weather's on it's way. (: I notice the ground looks wet there. Been chilly here in NC.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Thanks :D

Proof that scientists and historians don't need a fancy piece of paper, and can also wear biker boots and listen to metal xD keep on studying and keep on teaching thrand! Know you are respected and appreciated.

@Thrand11

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you :D

It wouldn't surprise me if both techniques(or maybe even more) were used depending on the enemies they faced, tactics that were being used, or whether attacking or bracing for a charge etc etc. It seems both have differing advantages. A firm grip in an underarm style might be better for bracing against a charge while overarm would probably be better for pushing forward against infantry. But who knows. I have never fought for my life in a phalanx/shield wall.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

I believe more than one technique was used as well :D

that guy in the painting almost got stabbed in the weener.

Over arm throwing trust seems to be the way it was done guys, awesome work the underarm version wouldnt work in mass phalanx ith out hitting legs of guys behind him. duels and single combat both are equally effective. Its wonderful that people are testing this stuff out so the secrets arnt lost. great work great video ;)

The underarm that penetrated was also in the base of the barrel.. where there would be less, vibration making from better penetration

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

True was rigged this time for the underarm to do better than before but on other test they complained the over arm had the advantage. I am just saying they did both and that overarm was more powerful, useful and had the same range of attack as underarm just that it is not given credits of these abilities by modern misconceptions of its use and technique. I believe the overarm throwing slide technique or gigging style was the most common method or among the possibilities normally used by good spear and sheildman of the past. I believe the slide or gig was used in single combat underarm as well but the overarm had the most power that way and possibilities of targets up close and over the top of shields.

@OneMindAnyWeapon

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Yeah just thought It should be mentioned, in the case that someone would use that the low arm method was in some way superior

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

OneMindAnyWeapon Got you :D

Excellent test Thrand, I agree with your final conclusion as well. The density of the phalanx dictates usage, and an open order battle line would fit in very well with the belly reinforcement of the linothorax. I suspect there were 3 "modes" of hoplites so to speak. One being a loose order formation which would be good against lighter troops or skirmishers. The second would be a less tight shieldwall likely using underarm (but flipping the spear to do some overarm jabs with the buttspike wouldn't be difficult) and creating a pike phalanx like wall of spears as a ward to control space. The third would be a more dense wall for a heavy infantry grind-out slugfest or for attempts to break through enemy lines (like a boar's snout) where underarm really isn't overly viable. Going to ponder on and test these ideas out as best I can and hopefully get some people to help test these formations at the upcoming viking event. Cheers.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Thought you would like this one Shield brother and I believe phalanx was more complex as well than most historians are giving credit to it just like Viking shield walls.

@demomanchaos

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand One thing that occurred to me at work tonight was that a lot of people seem to think they fought only one way and one way only. Much more likely they used different styles and formations to better suit the situation. Kind of odd that people forget about that.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

demomanchaos I know every one assumes that is what I am saying and that is not the point to this testing. It is just to show case the idea I came up with throwing slide or gigging style overarm or underarm and disprove findings of people such as Christopher Matthew's A Storm of Spears that maintains they used only one style. I also believe it may be the missing link to why Spear and shield was so devastating as described by Homer in the Iliad and revered so highly in single combat.

@demomanchaos

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand I plan to try it out some come Return of the Sun, but I already know how strong spear and shield can be if used right (I love using mine in combat). If you are good at baiting attacks and sniping the openings, it really does wonders. You should try to redo the Spartan vs Ninja/Samurai bouts you did with Marcus sometime, attempting both the overarm gigging and underarm with the point kept back. When facing a two-handed weapon (sword or polearm) with spear and shield, I've only lost once to a boar spear.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

demomanchaos Have had that planed for a wile now since I have been working on reconstruction of old spear and shield styles as well as Dory and Aspis. Which would have been when we did the last a about a week after is release had the revaluations wile studying the vases and ancient depictions in art work and having strange dreams about it :D

y'all are great

If you could stab the barrel underarm with a sword without sliding it why can't you do the same with the spear?

But Thrand we all know potters just put whatever they wanted on vases to sell more of them. How could you possibly learn some thing from studying them?.....unless, no , no that's crazy...Unless they weren't and these things really are archaeological evidence!! So crazy it just might be true! *MIND BLOWN* :D

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

:D

It would be great if you could attach an accelerometer to the spear, then you would have hard numbers to compare between the underarm/overarm thrust. I just tried using the accelerometer on my phone by mimicking different thrusts with it in my hand, and I get a higher acceleration from the overhand thrust, around 11g's vs 8g's for the underhand.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Very cool should be way more with the throwing slide or gigging style with a spear full range of motion.

@aidanhodgescience7634

9 жыл бұрын

Modus Pvvnens If he could set up a pendulum that would be great because then one could actually calculate the force behind the thrust. It is hard to tell the force behind a hit from just an accelerator because although you have the acceleration, you cant really guesstimate the amount of mass being attributed to the thrust from his body or technique.

@moduspvvnens8797

9 жыл бұрын

Yeah, set up a hanging target and have it lined up with a yardstick in front of it so the camera can see how far the pendulum swings after it is hit.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Modus Pvvnens cool idea will try to make that happen.

@aidanhodgescience7634

9 жыл бұрын

when i do it, i just watch the footage frame by frame and screen shot the object's initial position and its final position. Merge the two screenshots and print it out and measure it. I use the actual dimensions of the object to correct for aspect ratio errors. What you really want is the height it goes up to. the distance is cool, but the height it goes up to at the end of the swing give you potential energy. which is Mass(of object)*change in height*gravity. The potential energy obtained is the same as the amount of kinetic energy was used to get it there. Once you have the kinetic energy, which is in units of 1/2mass*velocity^2, you solve for velocity. Now that you have the velocity you can multiply it by mass of the object to obtain the momentum. which is mass*velocity. Once you have momentum, you can fiddle with the impulse equation and divide the momentum by the time the object was in contact with the weapon to determine how much force was delivered in the hit since velocity divided by time = acceleration. A worked example. A punching bag weighs 45.45kg. (100lbs) it is lifted by an impact on the pendulum by 15 centimeters. The object was in contact with the spear for .06 seconds. (30 fps = 0.03s per frame) potential energy = mgh = 45,45kg*.15m*9.8m/s = 66joules. kinetic energy = 1/2m*v^2 = 66 joules. v= sqrrt(66joules/(1/2 45.45kg) = 1,74m/s. momentum = mass*v = 100kg*0.98m/s = 77,93kgm/s force = momentum/time = mass*v/time = (77,93kgm/s)/0.06 = 1298 newtons * ,2244lb/kg = 291lbs of force.

Underarm requires you to open your shield up to get any reasonable force. That's a no no in a tight overlapping shieldwall.

The overarm hold is better when in a Phalanx - safer for the dude just behind you.

If a thrust with a sword or spear is hard enough even if the armour holds the person inside is going to hurt/be injured and the armour will be damaged. The question is how badly. A lot of variables there.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Very true

One other scenario where I would consider throwing my spear is if I notice it's damaged - think cracked shaft. Since blocking (or even attacking) with it at that point isn't the surest thing, you probably want to get your sword out, and when you have to throw down your spear, why not chuck it at someone you don't like? As for underarm charge, I'm not so sure point of it is to actually kill people. If you are going into a shield-on-shield clash, making the guy opposite to you flinch (say, because he was just hit with a stick) could allow you to knock him down once the shields clash. That said, I have no idea how to test it properly without some serious risks...

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

The throw in this video is not to lose it from your hand but a method of attack to get more reach or surprise on your opponent it does not leave the hand. It is special technique of a throwing slide and yanking it back or gigging style to give more reach, speed, power and a fuller range of motion for up close and even to long range fighting. It will work underarm and overarm and can be used to hide spear behind the shield and keep it form being manipulated. I will try to concoct a test underarm charge if possible but will prove difficult for sure :D

@MartinGreywolf

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Yes, I know that you don't really really throw the spear, but it is an advantage of overhand grip in general, whether you hold it tightly, or allow it to slip. As an interesting note, the rear-weighted position appears frequently in Fiore (posta di vera croce and posta di fenestra, done by guy with the crown): wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Pisani-Dossi_MS_15r-b.jpg wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Pisani-Dossi_MS_15r-c.jpg

Thanks for another great video. I find it to be pretty obvious that speed is a big part of how good something penetrate. And it is not only when it comes to spears. you see the same effect with knifes. If you throw a knife into a wooden plank or a tree. it will penetrate deep. Much deeper than if you try to push it in or thrust with it. to achive same penetration as with the thrust you need to use the icepic grip and really stab it into the wood with really much force. And that is something everyone can test themselfs.every one has a knife and some wood or a tree. so i cant really understand what the argue is about. if they dont belive you when it comes to that part. they can test it out for themselfs. Different weapons but same effect basicly

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Very true you can witness this in our throwing videos with properly weighted weapons for throwing it is even more apparent.

@reddokkfheg9443

9 жыл бұрын

But what i am curious about that i still havent seen anyone show. That is how underarm grip would work in a formation. i emagine it would be MUCH harder to use the spear properly if you have people on each side. people behind you and so on. The underarm fans say it is no problem but i cant see how you can hold a spear in underam grip and still use it effectivly in a formation. the people behind you would be in the way. and if you have the spear pulled back the back end would be between the people behind you and it would make it really hard to do any attacks towards the sides.

@TemenosL

9 жыл бұрын

Reddokk Fheg As far as I can tell, with hoplite gear underarm is greatly disadvantaged. Looking at these minis would help while considering these next points, especially considering we're talking about a close-order formation. www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/images6/DSCN0572hoplites.jpg My view is as follows. Underarm: - Limited range of attack on the horizontal axis. Unless men are *very* far apart, your spear can largely only attack the man in front of you underarm. Could be more useful in a duel/loose scenario. - The drawback. Drawing the weapon back to prepare another strike will either hit your ally's shield behind you, (sarouter possibly getting stuck?), or you'll have to put more distance between the person behind you and yourself, weakening the integrity of the formation. - "Parrying" is limited to sweeping motions with the spear. Something done much better with two hands on the spear, which is unavailable to our soldier. - Targets. While you can strike upward at the face and helmet, you can only do so if the enemy is at a fairly long range from you. Once the man up front comes within, say, at the 70% length of your spear from the spearhead, your spear, being a dory after all, is now too long to him him in the face, and you have to opt for extremely low targets. (Foot? Thigh?) - Power. In my view it's been proven multiple times already that, unless you're sprinting in a horsey-man charge, underarm has less potential for power. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Contrast, with overarm; - With slightly less attack range on the vertical axis (unless you open your shield up), you have a plentiful amount of range of motion on the horizontal axis. You can now attack men on the left and right. You can also strike and immediately threaten the face and spear arm of your adversary. Scary, no? - Drawing your weapon back has the, (in my view, rare) potential of knocking at an ally's helmet if your spear is dramatically struck while pulling it back. I personally think this'd be rare, and potential to kill a man behind you is fairly small. Raise your spear a bit higher or angle it downward and this is alleviated. - Parrying with overarm functions much more efficiently when the spear is held at the center of balance. Though the aspect of hoplite 'spear fencing' is argued over, this makes that aspect very much possible. You can now quickly and easily parry incoming strikes with the shaft of your own spear. - Targets on an enemy hoplite are never plentiful, but if you intended to attack at the face underarm anyway, you can do that far easier with an overarm striking stance. If your opponent has an open-face helmet, he's in trouble. If you want to spite him with striking him in the face, even with a corinthian, you can do that too. You can also strike his spear-arm if you want to try and disable him. It was originally thought that overarm would allow you strike over the shield to hit the torso, but in my opinion this is isn't so likely granted the length of the spear and the size of the shield. - Lastly, as Thrand has shown us here, overarm has the potential to be the strongest attack you can deliver with a one-handed spear. If you're feeling awesome and seriously want to throw your dory, perhaps if the enemy has routed, you can also try and implant it into his spine when he turns and runs.

@reddokkfheg9443

9 жыл бұрын

Janas Aurora Yes i know most of that. But i was curious to see it. The underarm fans claim that it will work in a closed formation. Most of the reasons you mention that say is not true. I agree with you but as many of the underarm fans do not i would like to see it tested out. But even if it would be proven i guess they would still say it will work becase the test was not done right. but i hightly doubth that any of the underarm fans will ever make a video of it themself to prove they are right, just because they cant :)

@TemenosL

9 жыл бұрын

Reddokk Fheg Heheh, well I see what you mean. I don't wish to slander anyone in particular, buuut, I'll just say that nothing would convince some folks. However, it's definitely worth testing regardless! Some footage for any theory goes an enormous length in redeeming it's plausibility and just getting the idea across better. Preferably, footage of people trying it out in earnest, and not exaggerating, or simply talking about it. I like to picture a group of hoplites overarm in close order marching forward, binding the low underarm groups' spears on their shields, then proceeding to batter their faces with spear-strikes.

I don't really get why one would want to have an underarm grip with a shield and spear. To me it seems way to easy for an opponent to use your own shield as blindspot for your weapon. With overarm you can much easier maneuver your spear around your shield. Underarm the movement of the spear is limited by your own arm and shoulder. That being said, i don't have exactly a lot of experience with spear and shield, but if i'd be fighting someone with spear and shield, i'd attack him from his shield side, and force him to fight around his shield. His shield doesn't hurt me, after all.

What about having a rounded pole instead of the one you usually use? Would that make it easier to use the throwing technique, also if it wasn't AS thick? Oh and glad to see the wind showed some mercy for the recording this time :P EDIT: Not sure how many see this to the side but have a look kzread.info/dash/bejne/X46K1Ztwga6uXZs.html. I think this helps reinforce *Overhand* better used than underhand in a *Phalanx* as well showing that the gigging style could have been used as well.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Used longer pole to represent proper dory or doru length.

@EhAmes94

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Ahh alright. But the point of the pole being rounded instead what do you think could that could help with the gigging style? Most of the art shown the spears seem to be round and not octagonal. Of course I guess that could be artistic freedom? :P

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Rollo Red The octagonal pole is unusual but helps with pole axes not really necessary with a spear mostly for thrusting. Does not make much difference.

Gae bulg; the belly thrusting spear of Cuchulainn The Gáe Bulg had to be made ready for use on a stream and cast from the fork of the toes. It entered a man's body with a single wound, like a javelin, then opened into thirty barbs. Only by cutting away the flesh could it be taken from that man's body

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Very interesting would love to test one out :D

@antonymash9586

9 жыл бұрын

It's a legendary spear from the ulster cycle, supposedly made from the bones of a sea monster. I just thought the way you did the underarm gig matched to some of the story about how he was supposed to have used it.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Anony Mash Very awesome I shall have to look in to and do a bit of research on it :D

@antonymash9586

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Cu Cholainn is one of the most important figures in Irsh mythology and the central character of the Ulster mythological cycle and the epic tain "the cattle raid of Cooley". A Berserk ulster spearsman, both hero and monster. The Hound is an independant film about him in development. Supposedly the visuals will be inspired by the likes of 300 and pans labyrinth.

Don't forget that hoplite formation is 8 ranks deep so even if you jog/walk slowly against each other, mass motion will not stop that easily. There with be a clash were couched lance with be effective by trapping the spear under the arm But after the clash front surviving hoplite will probably be so squeezed and close to the ennemy that only drawing close combat weapon will be usefull (thankfully to the domed shield resting on upper-torso and thigh some movements with the free hand can still be achieved). but the 2° or third rank can still use spear over the head of allies to catch a eye. Over the third rank soldiers can only push to the front.

@duje44

9 жыл бұрын

if you are a guy in hoplite, would you move and act the way it can crush you before you actually give yourself fighting chance, like chicken without a head? I dont think so. People these days...

@tatayoyo337

9 жыл бұрын

like trench charge in WWI facing machine gun ? human can do that, horse don't

@duje44

9 жыл бұрын

in trench charge you still have a chance to live, while what you discribed does not. I still dont buy it what you said, thats late heavy horse tactics that works because the mass of the horsmen is much higher than its target

@tatayoyo337

9 жыл бұрын

that's why aspis is deep and renforced on border, to keep you breathing during press.

@tatayoyo337

9 жыл бұрын

hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.fr/2014/06/the-storm-of-spears-and-press-of-shields.html

*The only thing I would assert in contention:* Sliding grip does not make sense over a firm grip for generating a powerful thrust. What do I mean? Griping the spear firmly makes at least your arm part of the mass that has been accelerated. And, if you subtract from the mass of something mid acceleration (letting it slide in the grip is effectively subtracting mass). It doesn't matter if you have gotten it up to target speed. It looses end force if it has less self contained mass in the system when it reaches the target. ...It's the difference between tossing ice out of a glass at something; Or hurling the glass along with it. Which does more damage? In either case both are accelerated. But, in the case of the former some of that accelerated mass is held back from reaching the end target. So, tossing the glass with the ice does more damage.

@jovanjorgovan23

9 жыл бұрын

***** But it did work, didn't it? These guys are showing it in a third or fourth video so far if I remember correctly.Theory without practice can lead us to some pretty false conclusions, and (Greek) warfare is probably the most (in)famous example of them all.

@The1Helleri

9 жыл бұрын

I paused on the penetrating hits, before and after thrust. hand looks to be in the same place with both grips before and after. Maybe the hand slid back a little. But, they looked like strait up thrusts to me (with no to negligible sliding). Sliding thrust is talked about. But, I didn't actually see one happening.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

I had no solid grip on the slide throws at all. So after all this I have to redo it again come on. I will you know I will and you are incorrect :D

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

***** They are thrown and a done as a slide I may have been a hair too close. I will redo it to prove I am correct why not this is going to be a very long series of videos to convince every one but I shall :D

@The1Helleri

9 жыл бұрын

Well, if you do your going to end up breaking the laws of physics (that being to make letting it slide in the grip somehow be more powerful the firmed grip application).

nice video. You need to work on your feet though IMO, you arent adding any power/speed from them by twisting like that you need to plant them and push.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Manic Demise This is the actual technique I believe that has been lost and was used historically and it works by accelerating the spear very much like throwing it. It generates way more power than you could by planting your feet and pushing as you suggest and the idea you have is improper use of a one handed spear from my research. This is my overarm throwing slide technique recovered from researching old depictions and art work as well as reading text of results in ancient combat and testing. If you look closely I am using my feet very much like depicted in ancient art work to accelerate the spear. This method is way more powerful than the method you believe was used by planting and pushing and it is common misconception that is how a spear was used historically. This technique is very much like Roland Warzecha's cast blow with the viking sword body is not required to generate power just speed of weapon. I have recovered this technique with Roland Warzezha's aid researching old art work and depictions but many call it Thrand's overarm slide technique which in reality is just the technique of our ancestors and the ancients. Here are links to several video showing the power of this technique and that it is superior to merely punching with the spear as you suggest. Thrand's Spear Technique Reply to Did we do it wrong? Monkey Fist Clubs. Zombie Go Boom kzread.info/dash/bejne/l55rssOmitrSc6g.html Iron Age Celtic Spear Tested on 15th Century Breast Plate! + Bronze Spear Reply to Arms and Armour kzread.info/dash/bejne/d2yqqMh9paqTmaQ.html Middle Bronze Age Spear Vs Auto Hood! kzread.info/dash/bejne/ap6ElbaFipa4qag.html Bronze Spear Underarm Slide on Van Hood Reply to Demomanchaos! kzread.info/dash/bejne/nqaqlMShYKurc7w.html Overarm Vs. Underarm Spear in Greek / Spartan Phalanx : Thrand's Spear Sliding Style Tested kzread.info/dash/bejne/fah9stJmnZmfcrw.html A neat thing about the spear in overhand grip reply to Skallagrim and Skeptics kzread.info/dash/bejne/rGGo2bZtd5PXetI.html Testing Middle Bronze Age Spears from Neil Burridge - Pierces Steel? kzread.info/dash/bejne/haF_rbmmnrO9kaw.html Hope these videos will help you understand the technique and the importance of rediscovering it as it was used historically. It is also the reason I believe spear and shield was preferred by our ancestors not the modern styles you see represented by people of this day and age who have lost the secret to spear and shield and what made it superior to many other weapon combinations.

Soaring Wing Chun Well said and thanks :D

oh crap, I've been reading his name "Demon Nachos" ... now I want nachos.

You don't need much speed or power to bury a spear head into a person.

2 effective places to strike the shield of the opponent are along the rim. Striking the shield near his chin at 11o'clock will drive the shield into his face. Hooking it there and pulling it away on the return stroke will expose his chest to another thrust by you,or especially by a comrade. The other spot on the rim is low and to the rear at 7o'clock. A hard strike there may move the shield open for a second thrust just the same...All in an overhanded, under arm grip. So that the spear may follow the circumference of your own shield at all degrees to your right hand side, and at all times. Used by the front rank to break open the opposing shield wall with precise strikes to the places I described, so that opportunities may arise for your comrade to your left and rear to kill them. The next rank behind you are thrusting from above as with the javelin type grip, plunging down into their face, helmet, and upper chest. For there is no other way to reach them. Both grips are used for different purpose. The balance of the Dory was 3:1 to the back...you can't thrust in Phalanx with half the spear tangled in the ranks closed behind you...

Damn Dory seems like was extremely dangerous weapon!? I wonder why it went out of use? Due luck of infantry training and not infantry fighting in closed files formation anymore? Well guys try the man in front rank to just hold underarm spear just to keep enemy at bay, just pressing it on his shield, while man on the second rank to use overarm and sliding trick to strike when ever enemy opens up. There are also videos demonstrating the markings on the shields that suggesting that they pushed at the top of the shields trying to press it against the face, and that they were pushing to edge of the shield trying to flip it. Is it possible that phalanx ranks had roles? Like pushers and strikers and used underarm and overarm based on their role? May be even among the same rank there were people with pushing or striking roles.

Given that your hand is the contact point you're accelerating the spear from and it is perpendicular to the direction of force it cannot be part of the mass you're accelerating. Any reaction force from impact of sufficient force (say as caused by the resistance of armor) will be sufficient to overcome the force of friction (your grip). Also the contact point is where you're generating the force from onto an object of lesser mass. F=MA rearranged to A=F/M means that of the two objects powered by the same amount of force (your muscles and hip torque) the one with lesser mass will accelerate faster. Your body is firmly linked. Extension of the arm means recruitment of mass primarily from the forearm (insignificant) compared to the whole body which cannot accelerate at the same rate as the spear both because it is the prime mover and because it has more mass. The only time reinforcement on impact actually matters is if you bind your bodyweight to the weapon as in a cavalry lancer's charge and you'll notice the handles on those evolved to be tapered into the grip. In that design there is a point perpendicular with the first metacarpal which then buttresses against the hand. Physics Maybe when I sart putting videos up I'll do one explaining the physics of this in detail.

The Macedonian Phalanx is one example of underarm being used in close formation. I'm most definitely in the "both" camp.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Macedonian Phalanx is more of a two handed pike wall than a one handed spear an shield wall. One is a pike wall the other a shield wall in my opinion.

@sanguisdominus

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Still, the individuals in a Macedonian Phalanx carried a shield. From your demonstrations, though, overarm does definitely have more power, and in a formation it's clearly the best way to avoid crackin' your mate around the head who's stood behind you. As I said, man, I'm in the school of thought that both were used. Generally, at the start of a battle - where you're a strong unit, with tight and disciplined cohesion, overarm is perhaps better. But any melee combat - no matter how disciplined the opposing forces are - inevitably ends up as a massive clusterfuck of people trying to kill the other people whilst not being killed themselves. I think that's where underarm comes into play. Underarm isn't as powerful as overarm, but the power of an attack isn't everything, underarm offers more stability and better control of the weapon, as well as opening up more options for attacking. Overarm has more force behind a single thrust attack, but underarm is: - Harder to parry, you've got your elbow supporting the shaft, making it a lot harder for your opponents to tap your blade to the side (Your entire arm is much stronger than just your wrist, in that respect.). - Better at attacking from different angles, whilst the thrust is incredibly powerful overarm, underarm has a far greater range of agility. - The ability to parry yourself. When there's other spears trying to get past the front rank's shields, an underarm spear has the control and stability to knock them aside - especially if they're using them overarm. I'd love to see you do a video on the benefits of underarm over overarm, man, but I've rambled enough - I need sleep. >_

@jovanjorgovan23

9 жыл бұрын

Vehementi +Vehementi I have to disagree with your points. Macedonian Greek shields of the 4th/3rd centuries BC were some 60% of size of an aspis or shields of previous eras. While sarissa was twice as long. Their battlefield tactic and formation was therefore nothing like what they had in 5th, let alone 6th,7th etc. centuries.Any kind of tight formation was, again, invented comparatively late in Greek history, and for cca 80% of the entire known history they fought without it. Double grip shield wasn't invented for any such formation, same as javelin and/or sauroter spear, both being used depending on the time period. The pictures from the beggining of this video belong to the era of non-formation combat.That being said, I don't see underarm, static and defensive as it is being used in such open and fluid battlefield of 8th-5th BC. Especially since you weren't even expected to hold on to your spear to the end (sword and pankration would come to play probably sooner than we think). Low to high kind of mobile figure of 8 underarm, which I was advocating until Thrand's videos had that freedom and agility, but lacked much power and felt a bit, awkward on the wrist, and that was the only one I could find plausible in that kind of environment.I also can't agree with last bullet points on underarm benefits.None of them. Power isn't the only bennefit of sliding overarm. I think his previous videos showed how many angles, how much mobility and control you actually have with sliding technique, even from crouching posture. And also, I wouldn't give too much credit to reach over power in Greek battlefield. People who drew lifesize flies on their shields so they could get close and make them be like lions to their enemies didn't put all their money on keeping enemy at a distance. Last, that ''ability to parry'' is based solely on the notion of an unified shield wall, which becomes useless if we use it in a period before it existed, which is roughly any period with this kind of spear and this kind of shield.As this beautiful and illustrative tripod pyxis shows, in this kind of open battle, underarm is more of an alternative than a primary choice for attack. i59.tinypic.com/v2w5jd.jpg

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Vehementi I prefer my style of overarm the throwing slide or gigging style with a javelin style holding technique with that full draw back in single combat as well from my experimentation with it. The shield parries everything adn the spear can be hidden or at least far enough back it can not be a manipulated and you have just as much reach available as underarm with out it being telegraphed. The full draw back as a javelin hold allows you to be able to attack the entire upper body over the top of their shield and even their legs and feet with slide. The angle works better with 3' round historical center boss shield and you can fight point blank with it and even parry if something gets past the shield with it. So to me it works at all ranges maximum and point blank and all between deterring them from rushing or allowing me too if if it is a sword wielder I still use underarm as well just hold it much further back and not allow it way in front of shield though. Yes we plan on doing an entire video series about Viking age spear and shield and even a Hoplite / Spartan spear and shield series and both underarm and overarm will be used for the different techniques and will show the advantages, disadvantages and uses as well. Oh not to mention our bronze age spear test will e one handed and two. We will also do a Trojan War / Iliald episode as well and will be receiving more bronze weapons and items from Master Smith Neil Burridge such as copper age weapons as well.

@TemenosL

9 жыл бұрын

Vehementi Except the Macedonians are known to have used it in a looser formation. If they bore the hoplite aspis it would dramatically reduce the amount of sarissa pikes they could project forward. As such, they staggered the line out a bit so that more men could project pikes out.

I agree that more than one strike was used. I have written that overarm was the strike used in phalanx combat, but that underhand would have been used once one phalanx broke and men fought in small groups or as individuals. We are specifically told that it is in this phase of combat, when men might find themselves making a stand alone or in small groups, that the techniques of weapon-masters (hoplomachoi) are of use in combat (Plato: Laches). Because I think overarm was the common strike in phalanx for reasons of power and uniformity, it might stand to reason that after holding the spear in overhand for most of combat you might opt for another pose. That would be the "low underhand" strike, which is not quite as powerful as overhand, but as you show can be quite effective. The "high underhand" or "couched" strike, if it is not just an aberration hit upon by modern reenactors playing wargames, where shoving and poking is just as good as a potentially lethal strike, may have been used to fend off cavalry. Watching you guy hit barrels and boards prompted me to post this. I hope it is of some use: hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/2015/03/a-simple-pendulum-for-testing-strike.html

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much and very good post and link we shall look into this pendulum to see if we can use it to test the power of thrust.

@PMBardunias

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Glad it may be of use. If various groups use a scale to measure the force and conduct their strikes is the same fashion (define each type of strike with the same body motion) we can directly compare and perhaps compile a database. It is very possible that some may be better at one strike than another. For example, I have wondered if those who were kids from the USA, who throw overhand in our major sports, may do better.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

PMBardunias We will try our best to make this item to test with! Thanks again!

Let me come out of the shadows and say something not many people have discussed. BOTH techniques are shown is ceramic jars, paintings and manuals. BOTH techniques are viable. So maybe, just maybe, BOTH were used. Just like you said. What I see that you gain and lose using each technique has nothing to do exactly with the penetration, it's more about the range. I mean, look at the effective range you pierced with the underarm technique and the range you had with the overarm. Maybe, you said yourself, given the way the greek shield works you could change your grip during the battle, so maybe they used the underarm to keep the enemies at range, if the enemy managed to get to the shieldwall you would change to the overarm technique to give you more manouverability and retain your penetration power at that range.

@Thrand11

8 жыл бұрын

+Matheus Terra (Lahash) The penetration, power and reach is better with he overarm throwing slide. It is good up close and has even better reach and angles than the underarm technique although the slide can be applied to this technique as well and switching from grip to grip easily. Here is playlist showing all test it will give you more insite on the the throwing slide technique underarm and overarm. Here is a playlist kzread.info/dash/bejne/l55rssOmitrSc6g.html

@jovanjorgovan23

8 жыл бұрын

+Matheus Terra (Lahash) I don't believe range was ever a goal in Greek warfare, since Greek ethos, as can be observed from both poetry and historiography, emphasized ''manly virtue'' through close combat, which was seen as a tool of living up to the ideal of excellence, seen in this context as choosing to go and fight in the front ranks, closing in with the enemy - as an early Spartan poet wrote. They were even told dying in such environment is beautiful, while both those poems and later ones testify to the great penetrative power of spears, describing how they stood transfixed in the bodies of the fallen, going through their armour etc . So even if sliding technique didn't have a better reach (and as Thrand said himself, it in fact does) the whole idea of reach rather than a penetration being a goal is problematic and anachronistic.

@Thrand11

8 жыл бұрын

Vojkan Selakovic The overarm throwing slide technique also has the closet range possible being point blank and the most reach as well as enough power to penetrate early bronze armor we have proven this in many video test here is a playlist. kzread.info/dash/bejne/l55rssOmitrSc6g.html

@jovanjorgovan23

8 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand Yes, I know. And it was an impressive demonstration indeed.

@Thrand11

8 жыл бұрын

Vojkan Selakovic Thanks

Hai Thrand. I think you nailed it right! At least you seem more trained then most hobbyists. But you are also not mention some things. First of all: Yes most city states used militia. But not, like someone mentioned, like the US national guard. The Greek middelclass was obsessed with fitness. Boys would go to the gymnasium, where they would train gymnos (naked). They would practice a military form of athletics there. Running with gear etc. Adults would also train at the palaistra in pancration, wrestling and Greek boxing. They were constantly at war and thus constantly aware of the need to be fit and well trained. Failure meant slavery. Since they used slaves for labour, they could use their time for training. So militia yes, but better trained then most todays regular soldiers(who sat behind a computer and at school during most of his childhood). At the olympics the citystates would show off their prowess in military athletics. Sparta did not always win here. And those Olympic winners would fight front rank at war. Intimidating the enemy. So imagine this very fit group of men, eight rows deep. The first row being pushed by the other seven. Using the overhand technique Thrand demonstrates. One does not need range! Since a phalanx would not stand still! It would be constantly pushing forward and at the same time throwing these spears downward. The push being delivered by guys with thighs like footballplayers. Imagine being on the other side. While you are being pushed out of balance, the tips of the spears go right in your thorax and neck. And if you are not killed right way, you are bulldozered over and stabbed with the back of a spear by the second and third row as they step on you. And because the the spears are at an angle, the back is not stabbing into faces. The shield is an offensive weapon. The weight of the spear makes the spear effective, not a push. In Japanese martial arts I use a jo, which is headless and lighter then a dory, to destroy a coconut or human head in the same way. Just let it slide a bit. Fast and dangerous. To others: Don't make the mistake of comparing yourself, a HEMA enthousiast or worse, an academic (with their shriveled bodies) to people who trained for something from childhood. It's the common archeologists and historicists fallacy. And a HEMA enthousiast is not a martial artist. Physically and mentally. So Thrand: good vid, well done! Thanks!

What must your neighbours think?!

the demoman technic is very poor in therms of biomechanics do this a 100 times and your shoulder will start to hurt severely. Do it a 1000 times and your shoulder will end up with damaged hyaline cartilage

Cant people just agree that both techniques at some points were used, that its also a matter of preference of comfort by the user, etc etc... I personally dont see the point of the discussion. Its commonly known that people in history were no different from people from today and tested various techniques and used the ones they saw more fitting for themselves or the type of army/group they are in? Its like the entire discussion that Lars Anderson has delivered now with bowmanship and whether the arrow should be held on the left or right side of the bow. In the end it only matters if you as the user manage to hit the target or not and do damage with it.

@TemenosL

9 жыл бұрын

***** Holy shit brother, did you forget to take your medication? Lars Anderson's bogus claims are just that, but his only reference to it is that people are now 'discussing choosing left vs right side of the bow'. You really need to relax. This isn't the first time you've been downright spastic-insulting. Take a breather, man. mr.lleuwelyn In actuality, people do use either side, and it depends on which eye is your 'dominant eye'. Something folks getting into archery will need to soon figure out. I'll need to do that myself, soon. I plan on getting a bow.

@mr.lleuwelyn4347

9 жыл бұрын

***** You do realise bow and arrow and spears are not being used anymore in common day warfare, right? So relax... why you feel the need to snap my head off for just saying this small statement I have no idea. To mr. Aurora: well that is also a bit of my point. I just wonder why there is such a heavy discussion about over or underarm or left or right arrow as it is pretty obvious both techniques were used over several courses of history.

@mr.lleuwelyn4347

9 жыл бұрын

***** In contrary. My openminded view makes me just more adaptable. If you see everything black and white and never consider the grey area, you will be caught by surprise that one moment where a person does something out of the box and makes it work on you. Now please stop making this topic into your personal warzone. I'd like to keep this fun and interesting and i have no interest in the "YOU DO THIS OR YOU DIE" type of discussion. Thank you.

@TemenosL

9 жыл бұрын

***** Tone it the fuck down, friend! weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1365090634176871059.jpg Seriously. You don't need to go into a lecture about how much of a badass you think you are. The guy's not saying Lars is a genius. Back off, have some Chamomile tea, take a breath.

@mr.lleuwelyn4347

9 жыл бұрын

***** That is just an awful lot of assumptions you make, friend. However when i read your entire rant, i most certainly can believe you have problems keeping yourself calm-in any situation- indeed.

I don't know if mentioned but aside from your over hand "throw" technique all the others would have smacked or stabbed the guy behind you in the attempt of getting enough power behind the thrust. I'm watching this thinking i wouldn't want to be behind you unless u had it over armed and angled as you did at first. But I'm like Jon Snow, I know nothing.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Jed Wood This is a follow up video to the main which shows it in application. What you are thinking is inaccurate here is the main video showing it is safer overarm ward with he sliding throw than underarm ward with mean behind you. Overarm Vs. Underarm Spear in Greek / Spartan Phalanx : Thrand's Spear Sliding Style Tested kzread.info/dash/bejne/fah9stJmnZmfcrw.html

@jedwood4123

9 жыл бұрын

I may have been confusing. I agree the overarm throw technique seems safer to me then the under arm thrust. insofar as men standing behind you. I like the over arm. I don't have a real spear but i was playing with a broom stick and kept thinking anyway other than over arm id be hitting the guy behind me.

I would like to state some points about this topic. Material shown in this video is pretty good. I see what you want to show to us and trowing stile attack is looking pretty good in terms of usability. Stile that we see in this video is usable in one-on-one fight where you have a lot of space to move. Phalanx is a tight formation - shields are interlocked and can not be moved out of place.You would have men very close behind you and you would hit him if you swing your spear like that. So using a spear like this wouldnt be possible in battle situation. Overarm grip is not practical because you use only half of your spears length. Underarm grip allows you to have more range and accuracy. Also in overarm situation you can only hit head and chest area of the body but legs or stomach area are out of your range. To hit lower parts of your opponent you would have to squat down which is impossible in phalanx. Underarm technique allows you to bend you arm behind shield to hit lower targets and gives more effective range of use. More to this: your target is not a men in front of you but men next to him both right and left because most of his armor shields him from frontal attack. Overarm grip exposes your arm and armpit which is pretty dangerous if you consider that there is a 5-6 men trying to stab you in that situation. I hope you understand my point of view.

@bmxriderforlife1234

7 жыл бұрын

except a phalanx is a greek sheild wall, im not so sure the vikings used them, also this type of attack wouldnt impede a sheild wall anyways, scholagladitoria has a video on this. both have advantages and disadvantages the point is in earlier documents we do see the spear used over arm. also from behind a sheild or sheild wall your arm and armpit arent exposed however your legs would be. think about it the sheild is used to cover the chest, if you hold it up in front of you like you would in a real battle its going to cover your chest and without impeding the over arm style you could very easily have it protect your right side, however using a spear underarm with a sheild can limit your options of attack and its really not that hard to change between the two with some practice. also spears were also a projectile weapon in many cultures as well as a hand held weapon.

@mateoglumac728

7 жыл бұрын

Yes I did use phalanx as an example, not a viking shield wall. Vikings had a light shield and hoplites used heavy shields and they utilized different tactics in battle situations. Vikings relied on agility but Greeks on power. Also hoplites used leg protection for exposed parts because they couldnt protect their legs when they were in formation (phalanx). Also overarm and underarm grip does not imply the position of the spear but how you hold the spear in your hand. If your thumb points towards the head of the spear then its underarm grip and if your thumb points away from the spear head then it is overarm grim. When I use shield and spear tactic I tend to use it underarm with an arm close to my head and 2/3 back from the point for maximum range. If a tip of the spear is passed then I switch grip and use it overarm or if I have a sword then I drop my spear grab that.It has a lot of advantage in close combat situation then a spear.

@bmxriderforlife1234

7 жыл бұрын

Darkblade 1995221 viking sheilds werent exactly light, i believe the hypoethesized weight is around 6 or 7 pounds. also the greeks relied on a number of different tactics, commonly out smartening an enemy. the vikings also relied on power as well typically with their swords dealing very powerful blows, however this is all speculative as we have no existing training manuals from those times. and yes over arm and under arm do sort of imply spear position as an underam blow even dealt as high as it can will never hit the same angles of attack as a over arm spear can. also using higher angles of attack underarm can rob thrusting power. i do agree though that having a back up sword is a good plan since you can drop your spear and change the plan of attack almost instantly.

@mateoglumac728

7 жыл бұрын

I dont mean that "viking shields were light" like they had no mass I meant in comparison to Hoplite shield. Biggest difference is in how they were used. Hoplite shields were strapped on the arm but viking shields were held in hand. Hoplite shield is built so it doesnt get pierced and there are not many examples that they were. Viking shields are not that sturdy and they are known to be shoot true with arrows and broken with axes and that is why they were held in front of you if you are getting shoot at. Also many different tips of viking shields were discovered so I can not specify the average weight. Also I agree that Greeks used different tactics but I used phalanx as an example. Hoplites werent the only type of solders in Greek armies. They were heavy units with similar equipment (shield, spear, sword and armor) that mostly fought in phalanx formation.

@bmxriderforlife1234

7 жыл бұрын

Darkblade 1995221 hoplites also used bronze weapons from my understand, which is part of why their sheilds wouldve held up better, and a strap versus center grip doesnt matter much depending on hows its used. i see your point i just dont think its a valid comparison. and you cant pierce a viking sheild hence why spears were thrown to get them stuck in a sheild and force the user to drop said sheild. also vikings from my understanding could have rather varried combat depending oin where they were and who they were fighting, but looser forms of battles did exist where as the hoplites pretty much always stuck to the phalanx from my understanding. also the 6 or 7 pound mark was an average. also a shile doesnt always have to be heavy to be sturdy it just needs to be well constructed. at least from my research the method of holding the sheild and a slightly more dished shaped on the hoplite sheild are the only real differences, both are sturdy and can withstand blows from arrows and swords however a heavy weapon in stuck in the sheild like a pilum or spear could render both useless. also from my understanding axes and spears wouldve been the most common viking weapons with swords being rarer. also i know the hoplites were the only soldier in a greek army. tbh i really want to try riding a chariot :P

Great job proving an overhand attack has enough additional force to get your spear permanently stuck in your enemy, making you defenceless.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

***** You really have no Idea do you? The spear will come out easily especially if it has to pierce some sort of protection such as different armour types. Have you seen the entire playlist of this spear technique not one time has it been stuck were I could not retract it easily. I pierced a 15th century breast plate this way with a bronze spear head :D Overarm slide playlist kzread.info/dash/bejne/d2yqqMh9paqTmaQ.html

@googelplussucksys5889

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand I wasn't entirely serious, but I did have a point, and that was that arguing about which way is the strongest to attack is infantile as so much else plays in, undeniably. Even an underarm attack will hurt you and another 4.8% of impact measured in an experiment, means nothing.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

***** It is far more extreme than that 4%?? unless you do the Throwing underarm slide to compare. Overarm is still more useful underarm throwing slide is only useful in single combat but limited in many ways. Have you not watched all the video test? I am arguing which is more useful, has the most reach, range of motion, advantages, angles of attack and the most power but extreme not a small percentage. It has the ability to penetrate like a thrown spear in to bronze armour of 1mm to 2mm thick and that was not thought possible before by a hand held spear. This is not the conventional technique that most scholars are arguing over you do understand this is an overarm throwing slide technique not a conventional overarm thrust that most test or compare. I believe it is a misunderstanding of old depictions. This is a full throwing technique used with control for melee combat and I believe want our ancestors were trying to depict in old artworks. It has more reach than Christopher Matthew's idea of the underarm thrust which will not work in proper Phalanx. It also works very poor in single spear and shield combat. I can not totally blame Christopher Matthew for not testing this technique he was unaware of its existence or proper use. Please watch the entire playlist if you care to argue this with me so your will understand it properly. The new video covers this technique as well. Roland Warzecha's has done much research on this spear thrust and it appears in this video. He also agrees with me on its existence historically and usefulness early period spear and shield. kzread.info/dash/bejne/q2yoz9GNpcKecaQ.html

@googelplussucksys5889

9 жыл бұрын

ThegnThrand How much more extreme? Say 10? 90% of a spear thrust is still going to bleed you. All you're really adding to the blow is gravity. Oh, and I did notice he did some sort of half-throwing thing. It seems dumb to me, nearly dropping your spear as you're attacking and having to pull it back. I’m simply not especially convinced by its utility. I’ve seen so many arguments about scimitars, Japanese swords, etcetera, and everyone always concentrate on cutting, while the reason a certain weapon is chosen over another contemporarily and historically, in reality, often isn’t strength at all. A certain bow design or sword may be simpler to carry on horseback, easier to carry with you, or the design of the weapon may have been dictated by manufacturing methods, or far-fetched fighting styles which don’t actually involve the mindless chopping the European medieval has come to be known for. Spears were in reality what swords are in fantasy and fiction, for example, because they’re easy to use and cheap. It’s that sort of thing which makes 10% pale.

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

***** For piercing armour if you have watched all my videos around 100% to 120% more penetrating power. armour can be leather, bronze or cloth any protective covering ancients speak of spears piercing. At least doubling it not just 10%. How could you even figure that if you watched the playlist I ask you watch before you responded like I had asked you too? The technique is called the overarm slide or overarm throwing slide. You should know this by now most call it Thrand's overarm slide technique and the utility or use of it far exceeds other methods in single comabt in shield wall use as well as mounted even. This means you have not watch the videos in the playlist I have linked you please watch them before speaking you truly do not understand this technique or its applications or the references trough depictions Roland Warzecha has found historically documenting its use.

A storm of spears by Christopher Mathew Is a great read on the subject !!!!

@Thrand11

9 жыл бұрын

Fiore Tutta I have read the book and I disagree with Christopher Mathew. He tries to sway Historical depictions and armour damage support his theory that they only used his underarm ward in the same manner he shows and uses in reenactment not real combat and he is completely wrong in the use in my opinion and it its not viable.I will do video reply and debunking of his book in the future.

I wish I lived in Texas. I would bowhunt hogs all year with my compound.. Do you guys know any big ole' lonely Texas gals who would be into fit 34 yr old Canadian dude to marry for the citizenship? :)

@Thrand11

6 жыл бұрын

LOL do not know any right off hand but not impossible I am sure :D

omg, how you wanna hold that spear like that in a tight formation with men standing right behind you???? throwing it? and what about sauroter being in exact height as faces of men behind you??? you would hurt them more than guys in front of you, because they have shields... and im not even starting with the fact you would be unable to even lower that spear in tight formation forward... mind you, in Greek phalanx, you would have just 30-45cm large footprint, men would stand just 30-45cm behind you, in 8 ranks...

The main problem I see with the under arm thrust is that it won't work in a phalanx. You would obviously hit the guy behind you.

I think everyone agrees that you get much more momentum with and overhand throw, but I think the under hand has better application in battle, especially with a phalanx. Spear thrusts have to be quick, repeatable, and retractable. And over hand throw gives a lot of torque, but it takes the weight and inertia away from the core and suspends it in the air. The closer your arms are to your torso, the more concentrated strength you have from core muscles and hip support. Also, the shoulder has no bone connection. It is held in place by muscles and ligaments. This makes it a weak joint, and can risk tearing a rotator cuff from exertion. Also, it has very little strength to pull back a spear for a second thrust. It is much easier to retract a thrust in an underhand position. The strength applied forward and backward are nearly equal, while overhanded is more like 80% forward and 20% back. For quick successive thrusts, the overhand can’t deliver. Additionally, spear and lances are carried point up and rested on the ground with available. It is a more natural change of pose to attack, because underhand keeps your hand oriented the same way. One would not want to risk dropping their weapon in a precarious 180 degree grip change.