You also need to remember adventurers are a real thing in the world so most merchants have heard of them and know they unload random valuable stuff. They shouldn't forget that there are swindlers and thieves out there but adventurers are real.

One thing I added to my campaign to deal with the possibility of people mugging the magic shop owner was that the guy selling magic items was a BROKER. Like a real estate broker, but potentially much more connected. You don't get to just pick up and grab a magic item and go, you browse a book of who owns what and is likely to sell, a book that is kept updated by expensive and proprietary magics. Shopping at such a store is a privilege reserved for the most connected buyers. You need to be INTRODUCED, and gods help you or the person who introduces you if you embarrasses them. That is mostly for permanent items, but scrolls and potions that are any good are also going to be purchased by other well connected and powerful customers. It takes a lot of work to get a license to sell potions and scrolls, a powerful patron or perhaps a scheming criminal underground. And these brokers charge a steep premium for speed of service. Similarly, sometimes a noble who has a magic item that isn't particularly useful to them and a dire need of quick funds may put it up for quick sale. So some oddball items might be available, but only for hard cash.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Love this!!!!

@elbruces

2 жыл бұрын

I so this too, but with shops for more common items who might make an introduction/appointment with a broker. The broker doesn't maintain inventory, but keeps track of which collectors have what and can deal with them "behind the scenes" and get back to the pc's later. This has the advantage of not having to tell the players no to a reasonable request but also setting up trade options to minimize the cash involved as well as incentiviziing pc's to treat shopkeepers well to maybe get that referral.

@michaelsandy2869

2 жыл бұрын

@@elbruces That makes sense. Then, if the players demonstrate that their money is good and behavior is appropriate for the scrolls, potions and weak magic items then can be introduced to the brokerage side of the business. Getting access would be a major step in their adventuring career. Having the brokers have agents in a number of different places could be a sort of in joke, like a McMagic franchise, or perhaps provide adventure seeds of their own, if a particular kingdom is trying to prevent magic from being sold to humanoids or people of a different religion or whatever. Or perhaps someone is acting like a murder hobo trying to put pressure on the brokers, and they would love for some good adventurers to track them down. They might say, "You can keep anything you find if you rescue the captured broker, but we would like them inventoried for our catalogue." Perhaps there is a particular combination of rare items a BBEG wants for a major ritual, and the players are trying to get ahead of them.

@SeraphsWitness

2 жыл бұрын

I like that idea of a party having to "place and order" with the broker and pick up the item at a later date when the distributor is actually back in town. It makes the urgency of shopping much more apparent when they can't simply trade all their goods and buy exactly what they need immediately all the time.

@michaelsandy2869

Жыл бұрын

@Anne O'Nymous To be fair, the rules on creating enchanted items do not make much sense. ;) IF a wizard figures out how to make a magic item, it would probably be easier to make another of the same type of magic item than an entirely new one. And if they can get a source of materials for one, it stands to reason that with significantly more resources, they could get them in bulk. Then you get the fun of a magical reagent store/broker. You want a dragon heart? Doable, but expensive. Dragon blood? Heck, somebody with breed dragons, maybe break their wings or otherwise hobble them. You want a piece of metal that has never been exposed to any light in 100 years? Well, how do you TEST that before buying it, and all the other expensive reagents will be wasted if every item is not exactly as the recipe calls for. A reagent broker lives and dies (if they are lucky) by their reputation. Do not fuck up the ingrediants for customers who have demons they can send to file a customer complaint. And that reagent broker needs suppliers who are absolutely reliable. Could be fun for highly lawful players.

This is great 🤣 "How much treasure are you going to loot with this rope? Surely you agree it's valuable"

I just made my magic shop merchant a beholder that enjoys commerce on his own little demiplane that he forced a wizard to design for him. You don’t barter with a beholder. The statues of adventurers that decorate the shop are good reminders of that.

LOVED this advice! I usually gloss over merchants, but this is phenomenal, and I think a really great way to make a more realistic world.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you enjoyed it! Hopefully it gets put to good use! For added effect, make the richest merchant in town the nephew of the thieves guild king from the next town over 🤣

@andrewkenny3544

2 жыл бұрын

It is very cool seeing you here 😎

You've actually put me onto a line of thinking now. I've long been a proponent of the "guiding NPC" to help new players get into the detail work of adventuring, reminding players to do their due diligence, scout ahead, check for traps and the like... and the "upselling shopkeeper" is a perfectly valid in-universe way to guide players into buying items they might otherwise overlook... until the players are experienced enough to think like adventurers for themselves, naturally.

@kerbalairforce8802

2 жыл бұрын

Hold (X) to skip tutorial

There are 2 reasons to discount: overstock and damage. If players are looking for a discount offer them discounts only on things that are widely available that a merchant is trying to "get rid of". Otherwise, the item is "damaged" and does not work as advertised, or they can be informed that the broadsword does roll -1 damage, but it is cheaper. Availability is also a way to control the flow of items in your game. Magic shops are ridiculous. While magic items are assigned coin values, that does not mean you just walk in and buy 4 decks of many things please. If you can go anywhere and buy items of high value, then they aren't high value. Rarity keeps prices high. If you want 1 deck of many things you will need to traverse two continents, perform a heist, find a grand wizard who can detail its inner workings and procure a suitable case to keep it in. A player is more likely to value something itt took them 5 sessions to acquire, than if they bought 4 of them at a discount in a small village they can't remember the name of.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Hahah I absolutely LOVE THE DAMAGED GOODS IDEA. 🤣🤣

@TheDMGinfo

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece if you have 1 in 10 merchants be a swindler who sells them fake things as well it will insure the players interact more with merchants :)

@Keyce0013

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece "I damage the goods. Can I get a discount now?"

@JohnZ117

2 жыл бұрын

@@Keyce0013 A discount for goods you've damaged yourself?! *Hilarious!!* (gives a deep and obviously sarcastic laugh) I'll have to tell my good "friends" about this humorous event later, but now, if you'll be on your way...

@atk05003

2 жыл бұрын

Magic shops can work. You just have to treat them like a high end luxury store. - Have bouncers and valets at the door to check for weapons and discourage "riff-raff". - Charge premium prices (above the listed prices in the manuals) for magic items with branding and flourishes. (Even the health potions come in fancy or "unbreakable" bottles and go for a premium.) - Have a bunch of guards dressed as assistants to keep an eye out for rowdy customers. (Some of these guards should be magic users capable of casting Counterspell and Hold Person.) - Your players won't really be able to enter until they make friends in high places. (Unless one of them has connections due to a background like "Noble", in which case they can roleplay a "Don't you know who I am?" encounter.)

Mate this video needs to go viral in every D&D group/chat/forum as you hit the nail on so many points.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!!

I really loved how you delved into Party reputation and how different merchants handled different wares. It's amazing how many players think their PCs can just dump a ton of treasure on the counter at a Village hardware store and think that merchant will just buy everything. And the looks on a party's faces when the shopkeeper they intimidated into buying stuff from their last foray remains closed until they leave town can be priceless. I once had a party that wanted to buy horses get incredibly angry when peasant farmers in a remote locale refused to sell them horses to ride. The party had to walk for a week. When they finally found a Horse dealer, and that dealer wanted to charge them above market price, it was a party member that reminded his friends that they still had a long way to go and they hadn't found anyone else who was willing to sell them mounts. In the end, the party fairly negotiated for 5gp above PHB price., instead of trying to intimidate or charm the merchant.

Man, there are so many nuances you bring to the table. (Literally.) I'm envious of the players at your table.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Players just want to get high and kill goblins hate this shit tho, so..... 🤣🤣 Of course, you don't need a DM for that board game

@DoubleCritFail

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece I do have a question... Do you communicate these subtleties to the players? Either OOC or through merchant dialogue? It may be easy enough for NPCs to express some motivation, ("You are taking food out of my children's mouth"), but how likely would PCs be able to piece together on their own that the thief was connected to the players demanding a steep discount from the merchant, for example?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

@@DoubleCritFail everything you do in your game needs a solid foreshadow, but even so, players can be dense. Sometimes just asking, "Are you sure that you want to browbeat the merchant for a discount? A merchant who likely pays protection to a thieves guild?" And refer back to your prior foreshadow.

@commandercaptain4664

2 жыл бұрын

@Dungeon Masterpiece It’s a conundrum I face with hackslashers who would rather wargame with D&D and role play with Heroquest rather than the other way around. It’s like using billiards to play chess… you could, but why bother? Also agreed about the constant use of foreshadowing to justify story logic to players, although it tends to ruin the element of surprise, but I guess that’s what dice are for.

You are as evil with commerce as AJ Pikett is with encounters and that’s a high bench mark. I love your insight

@davidmc8478

2 жыл бұрын

The basic handbook used to have discount rates that gems would be sold by players at. Weapons and armour taken from dead monsters were worthless. The big problem I always have had with D&D, and your video makes the same assumption I would, is that a dungeons delve should be after a singular treasure: one necklace or one famous magical artefact. Instead PCs leave used to leave the dungeon with three longswords+1 and 7 ruby necklaces

@krispalermo8133

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidmc8478 " Weapons and armour taken from dead monsters were worthless." Heard that remark 25 plus years ago playing AD&D at a gaming shop. Then I pointed out how much effort it took just to harvest iron sand and turn it into useable iron just to begin smithing. So 20 damage long swords took from defeated orcs is still 20 to 40 lb of steel to recast. Most people base on the time era used clay pots to cook in, so a cast iron camping travel cooking pot was some high cost items.

I made a travelling merchant that sells magic items, the first item they bought came with a big discount so my players where happy to buy What they didn't realize is that all the items are enchanted with magic that allows the merchant to locate them whenever they express the need or desire for an item, allowing the merchant to appear nearby ready to sell (With a teleportation spell close to their location because he's a powerful spellcaster), marked up if they mentioned which item they specifically need of course.

@shanem8145

2 жыл бұрын

Clever non-violent use of the information. I approve.

Thanks, this is great advice. It brought to mind port cities where merchants would sell items recovered from shipwrecks, and if they were unsavory enough, would occasionally set out false lighthouse beacons to lure ships onto the rocks. I can see where towns like that would have a higher level of slightly damaged high-end goods.

I think the issue with shopping sessions is that they can go on for too long due to the parties shenanigans. For example a bard trying to use a charm person spell to get a discount for no reason, or the theif being steal happy. Or even the long periods of time when one person is trying to swindle the shop keeper and everyone else is just waiting for their turn to sell and buy.

Well, when I ask for discounts in game, I use information as a leverage. I need 10 speed potions cheaper, so I tell the alchemist in which dungeon did I find life giving stones and give him one for test. Thus I act on his desire to find a way to live eternally. Dwarven PC could share contacts with artisans to the jewelry merchant in exchange for components. Wizards can just share a bit of their knowledge for A LOT of gold if a merchant sells and makes scrolls. We've all seen the prices for 3+ level scrolls in the books, after all. You can use more things than just charisma. Mend broken furniture or entertain guests to have a free night stay in a tavern.

Merchants are a hub of information and should not bow down to most persuasion rolls to be sure. Great video Baron!

early in my current campaign my players took all the weapons they looted off a group of cultists (it was a lot of weapons) and tried to sell them in a small hamlet in a remote area of the county. They refused to buy any of the weapons, BUT did offer to smelt the metal and reforge some of it into a new rapier for the rogue, and when they returned later with even MORE "scrap metal" they were offered a suit of armor. They would have to wait weeks for it to be made, but the party was quite happy getting a suit of splint for "free" and the blacksmith was happy to make them a sword and a suit and still got new(er) crossbows and scimitars for all the town militia, everybody wins. Oh, and yes they did use a wagon to haul all their ill-gotten gains back to town, a wagon they had stolen from the cult (so no one was too worried about where they'd gotten it).

Another way to give a discount is in exchange for doing them a favor later down the line. Or perhaps the merchant can sell them a magic item for suspiciously cheap and they travel to another city and the guards find that their new magical item has a secret compartment full of highly illegal drugs that the merchant’s associates were planning to steal off the party later.

Man, I just love your format and presentation. A guy in flawless suit methodically delivering the relevant information, without needless distractions or digressions. It's like a news broadcast or a documentary. I know that it may not be the most profitable format for KZread, but I hope you'll keep it up in a foreseeable future.

The difficulty of selling goods looted from dungeons is the reason adventures guilds exist in my campaign, the guild takes a cut of the profit for transporting and finding buyers for artwork, artifacts, and ancient defunct currency.

Potion seller I am going into battle, I need your most powerful potion. But I'll wait till black Friday.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣◼️ Rebecca Black?

Some interesting and useful points there. I've had fun creating merchant characters over the years. They also make great ways to provide the PCs with sidequests. The most popular merchant was a drider who smuggled goods between the surface and the underdark.

Another great video, The price list in the DMG and Players Handbooks are just so you have an idea of the relative value of an item, not a listed price. I also like to point out that some merchant areas might accept haggling more readily than others. In modern times for example buying a new car you are almost expected to negotiate with the salesman while purchases at the grocery store are kinda set on the tag. Lastly, I always love throwing in communities in my world who have no interest in gold and want to barter for items. What is the peasant or forest goblin going to do with a gold crown?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Amen to all of this!!

Just wanted to say that not only are your videos full of great ideas and quality, but then reading the comments section gives even more great ideas

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you find the channel, and it's community, so inspiring!

(Un)fortunately, my players are not the type to haggle at all, so openings for roleplay beyond "Anything else I can get for you" or "Damn, paying in platinums? What's the story behind that, if I might ask?" are pretty rare. That is, besides my resident suspiciously-wealthy pawn shop owner, Edsel. Damn near anyone that he doesn't already know, that can afford anything from his store, is going to be an adventurer. Rule #1 with him: All offers are limited-time. His wares cycle out and around often, between off-screen parties also showing up, trade caravans, and government contracts. Any military in the world is going to buy up that instant-healing juice the moment there's an opening, that's practically a second soldier right there. When it gets to things like 3rd-level spell scrolls, a figurine of wonderous power, or his current big tease for the party, a belt of cloud giant's strength, these things can upend an entire battle in the right (or wrong) hands, and there are many hands in this country. Buy now! After your next adventure, you might not get the chance to buy again! Rule #2: Selling is the goal. Whenever the party stops by, anything new is immediately brought to the forefront, and purchases are hounded by questions to pull out other potential temptations. They're suckers too, they damn near cashed out everything that wasn't basic equipment and took a quest just to buy a wonderous figurine dog that can talk and ignore invisibility. Also, while he might have a stockpile with a price tag (and probably power level) that would break the richest country's monthly income, he knows that and is willing to negotiate. High-ticket items can be rented out for a specific time frame (with rollover charges of course) at a much lower down payment, which the military loves him for. A Staff of Healing on-demand for a fraction of the price is far better for both of them in the immediate than both owning and having to defend it themselves. Party needs an item that can preserve a creature so they can deliver it to the questgiver fresh? 14k just got brought down to 300 and get it back by the end of the fortnight. At that price, if it's regularly rented for a total of two years, he gets a full-priced sale and keeps the item! Rule #3: Never tip his power level. The fact that he has the trust of the government to trade and stockpile these items tells the players that this guy is nothing to be messed with. Is he as powerful as the party? The king? Mordenkainen? Even if he's weaker than the party, he knows his shop's stock better than they do, and he's in the country's capitol. Anything illicit happens and he can always cast the most powerful spell: Call Guards at 9th-level. Besides that, he's a fun and helpful guy with a consistent accent that serves as a party money sink and gossip center, so he's one of my favorite characters. Selling art objects is definitely something that requires a large city to pawn off. Not only do you need to find someone that's versed enough in these things to authenticate their value, you also need someone like a collector/museum curator that can themselves, or have a patron that will, pay for what the party wants to sell at even close to "market value." Otherwise, unless it's some kind of magical item that makes it double as a tool, or has significance to a particular religion or noble house, there's not going to be much demand for it beyond the upper crust as anything more than a paperweight that's nice to look at. A module I ran called for a 10ft statue of solid ivory valued at 10,000 gp so long as it wasn't broken, with specific rules for how far it could be broken and retain value. Somewhat thankfully, the Fighter broke the head off, afraid it was enchanted, and even after the Wizard's mending spell making it functionally new, the appraiser could only sign off on it as "refurbished" for 70% cost, with the eccentric collector also not able to pay the whole 7k up-front and bartered with other items from his collection as well as receipts of credit.

I'm of the old school mindset when it comes to magic items (started with 2E AD&D in '95), so when 3E kinda changed the whole landscape with shopping lists of magic items, I came up with a fun compromise: a pair of well-traveled merchants of the "strange and wonderful" who, if treated right by PCs, are also great sources of information, provide some minor magical services for a small fee (Identify, reading unknown languages, removing magic item curses, etc.), and are generally just friendly people. Their stock is always limited based on their travels, sales, and current location, and they never have anything outrageously rare or unique, though they might know where to quest for them... for a tiny fee, of course. The longer the PCs interact with them throughout the campaign, the more they become more like allies or friends, offering discounts and such, in one case even helping during a huge battle with an invading army. I never had any groups mistreat them, but if any had, they would likely raise some prices (especially the service and information fees), and they would overcharge for any items they happen to have in stock that the party seems pretty desperate to buy; healing potions and items would definitely fit that category, though it wouldn't rise too much, since they would still want business. The last iteration I used of the pair was a high-energy pair of a male Human Bard and a Female Gnome Wizard almost a decade ago, but I've changed them a few times throughout the 2000s since I first started using the concept. My favorite iteration - which didn't see much use beyond their first appearance - was an obnoxiously-bubbly male Dwarven Bard with a penchant for overpreparing and telling outrageous adventuring stories that he's heard (that he would exaggerate with his own artistic spin), and a dour but well-meaning male Human Wizard who would get "passionately animated" when engaged in conversations about history, lost languages, monster lore, exotic cooking recipes, a particular noblewoman that he "definitely was not attracted to," and, of course, the arcane. And yes, it's always been a Bard/Wizard combination of some sort, though I've considered a priest of a deity of Magic as the Wizard stand-in.

In the beginning town there was an alchemist merchant that was obviously unhinged and the party acted as test subjects for discounts on his health pots. Eventually, they give him material necessary to create an unstable plane shift potion that could be used to help them solve the current predicament. Instead the wizard immediately drank it, ignoring the warnings, and i rolled where he went. Negative Plane. The party summoned a Nightwalker at lvl 5 in the starting town.

Even more mundane shops are not so simple. It's not just a rashon the merchant probably sells the salt or rosehips to preserve it. If he has an ax head he probably sold the ore to the smith. It's not just leather or fur a trade sequence is attached to both a varied trade sequence.

Uggggggghhhh!!! Why Baron, just why? I clicked this vid thinking id get some ok advice to note down 1 or 2 things. But this was just so good. I hate shopping as a player. Even with excellent RP from both sides of the table it feels like a trivial element of the story. Now I have an excellent template to run all kinds of merchants. How to deal with haggling Pcs and reasonable excuses as to why they cant expect to off load all thier loot onto 1 dude.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I'm.... Sorry? 😆

@kylas1902

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece lol your good. It just means I got more prep to do. Im sure my players will enjoy it. And if not im gonna enjoy the experience. Shopping for gear on credit. Private security. Credit collectors. Pawn shops. So many ideas opened up to a section of the game I normally handwave, manage out of game, or have a very intentional shopkeeper related storyline. I really am enjoying this content keep it up. Gonna need the word "iterate" on some merch. Also gonna need you to try and squeeze it into every video. For Algorithm.

I just found your channel two days ago and your videos have been LOADED with useful information, from a unique perspective. Thank you :)

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard!

Awesome video, great content, with some well placed reference audio expertly spliced in for humor. You're quickly becoming one of my favs. This video explains exactly why in my d&d works there are individuals called Tappers. They are NPCs that basically work on consignment. They serve to generate story arcs and hooks while offloading hard to market goods that the players may find. Below is my description of these individuals, who live in Google Keep notes. "Markets are moving targets, and selling items is not always a straightforward process. The who, where, when and how of materiel movement is a logistical nightmare, especially when the item has high value, and a private sale can bring with it risks and moral choice. Many cities will have a Tapper. Someone who has these contacts, and a skillset for finding the right people. They are usually incentivized to return a high price to cover their efforts."

I’ll note that a lot of discount season goods in our modern society are crappy quality, so the savings may seem better than they are. This is something you can also add to roleplay…if players want to hunt those cheaper goods, there is a danger. An older Eberron source book actually talked about how buying from non-dragonmarked house sources carried a danger because those sources were less regulated and didn’t care as much about their broad reputation, so you might need to worry about flaws or perhaps lessened damage, even if you saved a little.

You bring up some good points about how a small town shopkeep in a medieval society would work, but also remember that this is a fantasy world with its own additional rules, so unlike the real world, you _would_ end up with a fairly steady trade of adventurers loaded down with expensive, but bulky loot, and a good merchant society would adapt to that. A small farming community would have little need for most Adventurer loot, but if they are near an ancient barrow, they might be used to adventurers stumbling in with arms full of loot, and have a decent idea what it would be worth. For the Adventurers, they want a good price, but also don't want to be carting this stuff hundreds of miles to a larger city, so they might be happy parting with it at a cut rate. On top of that, you would probably have "Adventurer wholesalers" developing, whereby large, well defended caravans would run a circuit of the various towns in a land every few months, and buy up any random loot the shopkeeps might have on hand. If an item is worth 100 gold, then a local shopkeep might offer 50 for it, get 60 from the carravans, who would take it to the major cites, sell it to a shop there for 80, who would then sell it on for 100 or more to adventurers. It would be reasonably fair to all involved, as they each add some value to the equation in bringing the item closer to someone who actually wants to buy it. Of course if the adventurers wanted to cut out the middleman and just sell directly to the city shop, they would need to cart all those items themselves, and even then likely get 70 instead of 80, since they would not have that long term trading relationship working in their favor. These items have great value, but it's value specific to certain markets. Industries would definitely develop in matching resource to customer.

I didnt hear you mention this, but as the merchants deal with better goods then they are more likely to invest in abilities which help them identify and protect said goods. This would lead to merchants taking spell caster levels, or use things that a spellcaster would use. Also, they would totally invest in magical protection if they can afford it. Imagine stealing an item to find out that whenever you use it the item casts Skywrite above you giving away your location. The merchant would have removed that effect for you if you had payed for it.

I like the idea of the PCs hiring, especially if they purchase or are gifted some sort of headquarters, someone full time on staff to sell the goods they bring in. It wouldn't be an instant sale, obviously, but the PCs wouldn't have to dive into the details of how to find someone to sell these things to. Over time, their hireling would sell the goods, take 10%, return the rest, and follow the ethical instructions of the players. (Not selling to fences, not dealing with thieves etc.) The players would have to hire guards obviously too, and suddenly we have an economical motivation on top of a narrative one.

As a small business owner, I can promise you most of us DON'T keep a lot of cash in the store at night. So if you're rogue wants to steal money from a store, they probably won't get much at all... If banks exist in your world, I guarantee the merchant won't keep much money in the store after hours.

@krispalermo8133

2 жыл бұрын

AD&D2ndE Waterdeep City box set campaign setting. The city has a few banks which were haunted by the ghosts of retired guards. They worked till the day they died cause the bank managers could not just send away a person who been doing the same job for thirty plus years of their live. Then there is all those magic wards to deal with.

@shanem8145

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. In fact, I would even invest in a variety magic items for security purposes

@BennysGamingAttic

2 жыл бұрын

@@shanem8145 I saw a metaphysical shop IRL with a sign that said "All items hexed until purchased" and it made me think a Shopkeeper in a magical setting would probably do the same.

I would add to the haggling part that we can take inspiration from incredibly clever tricks from Napoli or Sardinia to trick customers and charge them extras, or the wholesome, friendly and clever haggling with artisans in old cities in the Maghreb which are still relevent nowadays especially when you are local, and may also be used to make tourists believe they are having a good deal. Small precision : No judgement, got family in both countries, and in all honesty I just find these things smart and genuinely awesome, and I 100% approve of poor honest workers tricking rich tourists into loosing a tiny bit of money that will be far more useful to said worker, and haggling isn't theft, if you loose on it you can only blame yourself

@fallenangel100197

2 жыл бұрын

On the note of friendliness of the merchants I also like to adapt it depending on their reputation in area and by whom they are introduced, for exemple if you are escorted by palace guards and buying things before tonight's banquet the traders will be high quality and will want to keep the partnership with rulers/reputation and will likely treat you very well and not be to mean on the prices. One of my player outrunned their own escort for whatever reason of theirs and wasn't introduced but went to the same shop, but paid extra and was not very welcomed by the shopkeepers compared to the other players.

These are the best videos ive ever seen, exactly the right historical context and economic understanding.

You, along with the background and everything, look so timeless it's weird. If someone told me this video was from any time after the 60s I'd believe them.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Fifties, sure. 60s? I'd need bigger lapells

Admittedly I had to set it up within the world itself and I twisted slightly the way medieval guilds worked historically, but I got a frustrated party and interesting roleplaying when they had a problem with a roof they had to fix at their small hovel in town, so they went looking to the local builders' guild for equipment and supplies. The guildsman at the shopfront happily announced they'd be happy to supply tools and equipment, provided the players also paid the 1,500gp marker the guild needed to make sure the structure was sound and to tear it down if it wasn't a good piece of work. The guilds were protecting their cartel in the town. The characters were outraged at this shakedown, but the guildsman stood his ground and freely said "Sure, you can go and find some rusty saw and half-bent nails from somewhere in this town, but we take our trade seriously. Don't be surprised if there are ... consequences." :)

In the campaign world of Symbaroum, The expansive Davakor Forest was home to an ancient civilization and the ruins have been obscured by dense forest. Adventuring parties buy a license to be allowed to explore the ruins of the Davakor and bring back artifacts to be sold to dealers. The adventurers find the site of an ancient ruin, loot it for all they can carry then sell to location of the ruin to the archology society who hire other adventurers to act as security while they map the newly discovered and "cleared" site. The frontier style city of Thistle Hold exists to support this industry. It is almost like the California Gold Rush. Adventures come from far and wide to find their fortune, they either get rich or die trying. It changes the dynamic for selling your spoils as well as adds intrigue as merchants, traders and brokers compete to have the best, most profitable adventuring troupe working for them under contract if possible. The main industries are; adventuring, buying artifacts to be sold elsewhere, outfitters, thieves who steal from the cash flush adventures, and bandits who rob various caravans. Lots of story potential.

Verry good advice ! Also, think of what other media has done with merchants : Quark (Star Trek DS9), Watto (Star Wars), the guy bringing dragon breath to Constantine, Apu in the Simpsons, etc. Merchants can be fun !

Darokin! Yeah, I'm just the old guy that jumps up to shout a random Greyhawk (or in this case, Mystara) reference randomly. Great advice, though. I'm enjoying your channel.

Minor appendix, oh my baron: consider having merchants pay in non-standard currency. Honest Jaime likely doesn't have the coin to pay for that lovely gold-and-ivory "fertility statue," but his shepherd brother could be persuaded to part with several dozen head of sheep for it, with the brothers splitting the profit once they unload the statue onto an urbane and culture noble bachelor from the city.

My merchants are horrible crooks. It's great fun. Players are always pissed, especially when they can't purchase at the goods at the PH prices. You forgot taxation, tariffs and fees. PC soon learned to bribe the gate guards heavily so they didn't fully tax or snitch on you for their overlord. I set loot taxation at a flat 25%, usually collected at the tavern when the characters we eating their first good meal in two weeks and bragging to everyone about how much loot they got to the locals. In walks the tax collector and 2 dozen guards who then take the 25%. Great fun.

You always have a great insight into RPG's I really enjoy your channel. I have been playing as a DM for over 40yrs. You are proof that you can teach an old dog, new tricks! LOL

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Much appreciated! Glad you find the content helpful!

The first video I've watched of yours (I think) but this essay on merchants - and what their motivations are especially - was thorough, informative, and well worth that like and subscribe.

A merchant that can't (or chooses not to reveal that they can) appraise a magical golden necklace, would only offer to pay it's gold weight value. Conversely, a shop keep might charge for appraisal services and inform the party that an item is a well made fake.

Hmm, this is good advice. My next shopkeeper will offer 10% of an item's value, saying "there's the 45% no questions discount, then the 45% no answers discount. Of course, I'd be happy to get you in touch with a buyer, for a fee..."

Excellent advice for the aspiring DM shopkeep! Keep up the good work!

Wow, this was really insightful. I like the way this channel is going! Subscribed for sure.

And then there's my players... They've been frequenting an equipment and supply shop for the past few sessions and the owner has been fleecing them for +50% in almost everything. They've never questioned it. The shopkeeper thinks that they're either clueless country bumpkins who don't know better (which they are) or adventurers too flush with silver to care (which they also are). The PCs are her favorite customers because they NEVER haggle and buy everything at 150% value. I'm tempted to push the prices to further ridiculous heights to see how far they'll go.

These are amazing tips man, keep it up!

Great video mate. Really interesting, and I look forward to seeing more.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

More incoming!!!

If you work in retail, it doesn't take long to learn how to spot the wealthy customers. My merchants don't price their goods. They tell you how much it is after judging you to decide if you're wealthy or not. One of my players recently paid 8gp for a 2gp backpack

@Keyce0013

2 жыл бұрын

I cannot upvote this enough. Salesmen in an unregulated market will always mark up a price for a customer they think can afford to pay out the ears to buy the goods.

I often have players try to haggle for bulk purchases like my merchant shops are a costco or something. most local shops also have a vested interest in their local community first. if this is a common item that a lot of people in town buy, why would they risk alienating their regular clients by running out of something they need to sell something for less than it's actually worth. It's a lose lose situation

@Keyce0013

2 жыл бұрын

Depending on how much stock they have to give, I imagine a vendor might offer some (but not all) of their goods to the party at a mark up to cover the fact that the town is probably going to go into a minor or major shortage of that item once this transaction is complete. Not only will the vendor sell off a good chunk of their materials in one sale for an inflated price, they can then spend the additional money on purchasing more of whatever the locals are in need of.

Great job and food for thought!

It should also be well understood, if you are playing in an Asian style game Pcs can get silk cheaper might be likely but an item like Ivory might cost a fortune, location and availability of goods will fluctuate wildly depending on the area and circumstances of a location. War, weather, banditry all could effect these things; so a bandit king moving into the area becomes a great quest to save the merchants, a dragon making passes in the mountains impossible, time to go stalk a dragon.

Ooo. How would you handle magic shops as well. Depending on the world. The magic they would sell could be illegal, or regulated.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Oh man.... That's a whole other episode.... *Writes in backlog*

@KnarbMakes

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece look forward to it!!

Lots of good stuff to consider. Even if you keep it simple on the buying side for the players (Cha check, haggling, or performing a favor for the merchant earns a discount) the idea of not being able to sell gems and ancient art work to a local merchant in a tiny village should be standard. It gives the players reason to seek out an art collector, or a thieves guild, or a dozen other hooks.

Excellent presentation on what real trade should be like within a game. I’ve always had the view that if you make loot and items too easy to acquire it has no real value to the player. However, a hard won victory might yield a gym that could pay for the dungeon expedition with some extra to send to the poor deceased hireling’s family. I also give quirks out to players that may cause them to squander money or develop vices. In my apocalyptic games / Mork Borg the prices of goods are high and often too much...leading the group to make choices between moldy cheese, questionable meat, and partially rotten fruit.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

People actually play MörkBörg!? I just thought it was a meme system, too modern for the OSR pundits, too OSR for the 5e pundits.

@creaturescavernscrafting2929

2 жыл бұрын

It's actually fun. However, it does take a more sinister tone. Checkout some of the KZread games. Different flavors for all gamers. Great video friend!😎

I always want to do more with commerce and trading dungeon treasure, but my PC’s tend to grossly assume they don’t need to interact with the DM when selling treasure. Once they get to town they’ll just convert their treasure into gold coins without even telling me.

This is a really great video. Cheers

This is good stuff, mate.

When I am DMing and the campaign has a proper local home base the party will regularely return to without much travelling outside the region, I prepare properly for instances of characters trading for stuff. I create tables for different merchants as to what they carry and what they are willing to buy and add the modified prices to those lists. No merhcant is going to buy items at book listed price from an adventurer, they will always deem such items either second hand, second rate or stolen. If one of the PC ios known as a merchantor craftsman themself, They might accept paying New item prices on specific goods to buy from PC, but those would always be at least 10% bellow book listed price. Conversely, no merchant would ever sell for less than 5% above book listed price, more typically selling for 10%-25% above book listed price. Having these lists allows room for haggeling and lets me use different prices in each prepared shop, according to the affluence of the individual merchant or town and the general availability of the goods in that region. When I am playing, however, I am not unknown to have rounded up and left without waiting to get change back. This has granted my Character certain other perks with some particular merchants.

@krispalermo8133

2 жыл бұрын

And base on a given location, some items can be worth x5 or x10 more than the book price. Maple syrup/brown sugar is cheap now but 200 years ago it wasn't in the America east cost colonies and it was even more value in southern Europe cause the environment didn't support sugar maples. Sugar beets were the most common fruit sugar peasants in Europe used it cooking and copper pan boiling into soft gummy and hard candy. Then there was all the other types of fruit syrups in sell, high priced in northern Europe was Lemon. Lemon honey cough drops were at one time top class candy, then there were oranges. Back 25 years ago playing AD&D I had a PC bribe a drow patrol with a few bags of maple sugar, candies, and cough drops. Well, my rogue did steal the oranges from the docks with a southern ship was in port.

Of note: some cultures expect extreme haggling. Shop Keepers will price an item 2 to 5 times the amount they actually intend to sell it for, knowing that it is all part of the "act".

as a player, I am terrible at haggling , but I do like playing charismatic characters, my solution: always just pay the asking price or pay a little more, always being the no-nonsense. would would be a ripple effect be of a generous shopper or someone who isn't trying to undercut the shop. as a Dm I don't also like haggeling and most shops would buy the BS the party sell or direct them to stores who would be interested in that magic made trade easy Store owner:"this fishing village doesn't have a lot of use for these gems but i have a friend in the capital i would send a sending and tomorrow your hear if i would buy your gems.

I ALWAYS give players discounts. Merchant wants 100G for an HP pot Player asks how much an HP pot is Merchant says its "150G". The player always tries to reduce the price. Merchant decides to give them a discount and lower it to 100G. Player and merchant are both happy >:)

nothing is boring around a ttrpg table, if you are playing with your heart

Excellent advice

You bring up some good points and some ideas.

Nice video - I'm going to check out The Futur too. Thanks for the channel recommendation.

I've gone from this line of thinking back to just letting people dump their items for gold again to be honest. I've been running pathfinder a lot and the ammount of things the players are buying, selling, crafting and offloading is large enough that explicit roleplay of the shopping experience would take up sessions of time. The system just assumes that selling things for 50% of their value can just be done and the scaling falls apart if they can't. To add some flavor and if it is appropiateI I like introducing a specialised magical traveling broker or lets face it, fence for their stolen archeological tresures who can be dimension doored to the party with the ring of a magic bell and is always happy to pay the rules mandated 50% of the items buying price. Some decently high level wizard who can teleport and bring extremely valuable items to and from an high security demiplane guarded by untold bound horrors just seems like something that would naturally occur in the world, and part of expanding their business would be trying to be the first to establish a selling contract with an up and coming party of adventurers.

Barron de Rope Adventure Gear Merchant

@DungeonMasterpiece

Жыл бұрын

This is a terrible pun. I love ir

@seanpinkey2188

Жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece +2D8 Bardic Inspiration

Great ideas to flavor merchant interactions. Keep in mind haggling in the USA is not common on basic good, whereas in other countries, it is commonplace. Also you would expect to haggle with a sole proprietor such as a merchant instead of an employee that is part of a large corporation.

As much as I needed with you for being a Baltic German in the other comment section, I do like the more obscure historical touches you include in your videos, like anti Lombard racism. You’re the first person I’ve run into online that discussed it. I’d actually be interested in more sources on it because I only know of lombards being treated similarly to Jews following the Frankish conquest of Italy from an offhand remark a while back & don’t know much in the way of details.

I'm dieing 🤣, this is awesome.

There are some good ideas here, but i do also see some pifalls. Im a historical fencing instructor and i know how medieval weapons worked and how they interact with armor, but in the end i dont import to much of it as it wouldnt make the game more fun. Realism does not make a game better, fun does

This is pure gold 🔥

great advice. subscribed

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Hell yeah! Welcome to the library

I have a traveling merchant NPC that appears with his wagon at very random places. He may or may not much more than he seems.....

This was an awesome video, I am definitely going to be putting this to use.

Very informative! One question about small-town merchants not being willing to buy prestige goods like gold statues or high-end jewelry: how would one handle this in an adventure which takes place entirely in a frontier environment? I'm running Lost Mines of Phandelver for a group of fellow newbies and there is no big city to be had. In theory I could convert all the non-coiny loot to coins but I think the variety is fun. I'll grant that LMoP provides enough actual coins and few enough things to spend it on that the PCs could technically hold on to the luxury items until after the adventure is over, but there are plenty of scenarios in which a party is out on the fringes of society for over 5 levels or even an entire campaign.

@HorkSupreme

Жыл бұрын

If you can't sell it then you are carrying junk.

I did exactly that. One Off my Players said "thats immersionbreaking! "Take it or go out off my shop" Everything Else is just a distraction from believeable Role Play." 😧

@SonofSethoitae

2 жыл бұрын

It's so immersion breaking when the NPCs act like real people

We, as regular people, have dealt with a wide range of retailers, farm markets, salespeople and other merchants. In an open bazaar or market, approach this busy place like a competition between merchants. They will counter bark each other. Will they counter offer? Or is there something else at play where the merchants have an agreement where one will upsell a product but reduce price on another? Upselling is a smooth mechanic, which takes knowing how to manipulate the PCs based on what they need. Also merchants are a great opportunity for humour, plot hooks and even romance. Is there a shortage of a product or service? Why? Is the tavern owner a gorgeous (insert lineage) who wins their patrons over with impromptu jokes or songs to promote drinking? Is the business a front for another operation? Merchants are a plot hook waiting to happen.

If Ive learned anything from retail, always keep a large hammer under the counter.

Very nice.

Really good ty! Can I ask for another video on dungeon map design please?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

This is something I've been thinking more about to attack from different angles, but check out my video on Metroid megadungeons.

The Wolf and Spice point of view of trade messes with a lot of things. Also, there’s a massive drop in actual value ever since they moved from CP to GP

@danielmiller3596

2 жыл бұрын

Also: never believe in Retail

My last game was the first Urban Adventure I ever ran taking place in a Remote, Magically-Industrializing, City State. The players bought from a menu, even having stock options available, but like in all my games they never made enough money to ever get anything without a rich sponsorship or a friend giving to them for a good deed. My players end up living inside dangerous and exotic complexes that want them to, more then anything, get out. There is a good chance my players will he playing newly minted Knights exploring a dungeon in my next game, but I'm not sure if they have a need for money even then.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Gotta send them to Noble balls to do some heist stuff and make then buy thier own clothes, stage coach, etc 🤣

@Barquevious_Jackson

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece Maybe, I was thinking that since a lot of the players will be playing newly minted nobles because they just became Knight via a ancient yearly tradition that they'll have to then join a real noble house by marrying into one. It would be a pretty good twist I think. Maybe they'll be spending lots of money to woo some really uninterested noble lady/gentlemen who is apart of the largest or most powerful noble house.

This vid is Gold, pun intended !

Did you just make a video on your area of expertise? I remember selling add-ons.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Lemme know if you need me to pitch more of them! 😄

@HowtoRPG

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece lol

Love love love your channel allow me to humbly correct you; Piton is pronounced Peeton and Copse is Cops like the police. FYI I am creating more encounter tables inspired by you.

so... does that mean traveling merchants might for example sell magic items? i mean those aren't exactly things that can be made anywhere. they are supremely valuable. and if the merchant comes under attack they might even be useful for fending off attackers.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Something like magic items likely have a broker. A well connected individual who can fetch something similar to what you are looking for, but you will pay supremely for the item, and supremely for the service.

@nikolajsteffensen6578

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece ahhh yeah that makes a lot of sense actually. what with magic items being a rare and also dangerous commodity. thanks for the response :)

If a store in a big city trades in very valuable art objects, clothing and /or magic items The would logically do trade with adventurers by default. AND a loyalty membership with identification ( usually for a small initial fee) for a 10% discount makes sense (with adventurers) as they will be coming back an BE big spenders. And even more clever merchant has already raised their prices by 10% so its an illusionary discount but makes these super wealthy powerful adventurers teleport across the planet to buy and sell at THIS magic shop however. Also making friends and allies with a powerful Adventuring party mans they will protect you and your store from those who threaten you! Cultivating friendships with adventurers would have perks! Discounts make sense also, if the Adventurers just saved the freekin' town from some kind of deadly evil as does free food/drink/lodging at an inn (provided this wouldn't harm the innkeepers bottomline.) (townsfolk all chip in to pay for the adventurers drink/room and board as part of a thank you/reward for example. Or they have free stay at the local nobles manor) But only if the PCs are being nice (enough) and actually saved the town. If the PCs save a merchant on the road from monsters/bandits etc a Discount really ALSO makes sense BUT it can't go low enough to bankrupt the merchant and harm themselves/their business or their family. There are plenty of VERY COMMON occurrences an a TTRPG campaign where PC's EARN reasonable discounts! If it is however unearned yes avoid having merchants behave illogically!

As someone that will both roleplay shopkkeepers and gloss over them there is a really good reason why You do not want to roleplay all shopkeepers. Because then you game becomes all shopkeepers are alike, and that can be less fun then just letting players get their shopping done. People find a niche of what a savvy salesperson is then they go one of two ways, savy or greedy, and once players have identified which shopkeeper is what and have done these conversations a handful of times they just want to get there shopping done with a skill check for the discount or haggling. In order to keep things interesting you, it is bettter to give them a shopkeep with a single highly identifiable trait. A Lizardman that does not haggle, gives players a long leering glare makes them uncomfortable and expects players to pay full price. But to still allow players to find a way to haggle through this on their own and make a persuasion roll for a discount like you would any old shopkeeper. Such an easy shopkeep for Dm's to handle and players rememebr them, thats all you need in a game.

So, uh, where's the sign up sheet for your next game?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I might do one shots with patrons when I get to 1k subs I'm the future!

You are gold

The problem I have with ANY dungeons is who the hell does this? Monster: I built our first room in the dungeon but I think I need more. I think I will dig 60-90 more feet, then build my next room because digging through rock and mud is so easy.

When it comes to the purchase of magic items I only have magic shops in locations where magic is abundant like extra-planar cities like Sigil, which are an adventure in themselves to get to, otherwise you can only get the basic health potions from apothecaries. If you want to buy the good stuff you have to go to an auction house that specialize in magic items, and those can only be found in the biggest cities, you have to outbid the cities elites, and the items for sale are random. The players have to decide if each item on the auction block is worth bidding for or lose out on their only chance to get it. On the plus side it gives the players a location to sell their excess magic items they don't want, and are free to try to manipulate the crowd to raise the bidding.