Basically my clarity seeking question to the FIVB would be: Per the new guidelines, is there any "softness" in the touch allowed, as long as the total movement of the ball is in only one (outwards) direction while ball is in hands? If yes, is softness allowed from the wrist and fingers (like in my first example at 9:56 in the video), or from fingers only (like my second example at 10:02 in the video), or would both of these examples be illegal?

I agree with most stuff you are thinking like the most important is to keep the fun sets( jump sets, fast balls etc). However, I'm sure that whatever rule they apply soon or later and nowadays rather soon the professional players will adopt and find other ways and techniques to do same or more as before. However, as amateur it's really frustrating to face such changes in such a difficult to master technique as the beach handset. We don't have the time, coaches and athletical/technical ability to adapt to such changes fast and they add even more confusion in a move that wasn't easy to judge even before...

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Good point. In a sense I think the trickle down to lower levels from these guidelines won't be too dramatic, maybe take away the worst lifts.. But we will see..

The Swedish jump setters are extremely fun and exciting to watch and there playing “was” changing volleyball and taking it to new exciting levels , it also opened the game up to more people as the up and down game is more suited to giant blockers , suddenly smaller guys could play and win and get around 6’9” blockers . I started to see recreational players everywhere practicing jump sets and getting excited about playing again even if they are small . I think it will be a real shame if they restrict this type of play . 🙏

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Very good point! It is a very fun type of play to run and adds a lot of excitement to the game, both as a player and spectator. A well run jumpset play gives you and your partner a very fun feeling of "connection"!

@robertbucks5537

2 жыл бұрын

Jump setting isn't that effective. The margin of error is higher for doubles, lifts and it decreases accuracy. You have to be very athletic to commit to jump setting and to hit jump sets if your setter is trying to run a play. Plenty of shorter players do well. The #1 Qatar team is shorter than Ahman/Hellvig. Bruno from Brazil is shorter and won a gold medal in Rio.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

@@robertbucks5537 I'm not gonna say you are wrong, but I'm gonna say my belief is that the jury is still out on this one. Firstly I believe that the art of running jumpsets is probably not perfected yet, so the chances of success vs chances of errors ratio might get better over the years when players perfect it even more (if the FIVB will allow these plays that is..) Sometimes the new stuff ends up being good in the long run even if there's some hiccups in the beginning.

@JillRhoads

2 жыл бұрын

@Robert Bucks @@LearnBeachVolleyballFast 🏖🏐❤ I was also going to say that Sweden's Ahman/Hellvig are just entering the world stage @21 y.o. while Qatar's team of Younousse/Tijan @27 y.o. have been around for a while. Btw the two teams are almost exactly the same height. Åhman, 186cm, Hellvig 193cm and Younousse 194cm, Tijan 185cm. ...also Brazil's Bruno is 185 cm @35 y.o. So height isnt the defining factor here. Sweden's team is just missing experience compared with the others imho. (Hellvig recently broke a bone in his hand. /sadface) Tbh, I think the #SwedishJumpset is just an element of indoor vb being brought into beach which makes it all the more exciting.

@2Swift4u

2 жыл бұрын

For most recreational players jump sets don't even make much sense. Because first of all jump setting only makes sense for setters and attackers who can hit the ball straight down without a block. If a mediocre / smaller players jump sets I'm not gonna bite on it at all because I know he's not going to pound the ball without me blocking. And secondly a mediocre blocker most of the time will not even be ready to try to block the setter who's doing the jump set so the jump set/fake attack basically becomes ineffective. And the risk of a lift/double or bad placed set is much higher. So most likely it won't help your game at all or even hurt it. However I'm not saying th FIVB should ban jump sets but I'm saying that it wouldn't have a big effect on the majority of beach volleyball players on this planet. It would only affect players on a higher level.

The analysis about different hand-setting techniques, indoor-like included, was really interesting! (especially because I'm mainly indoor lol)

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome to hear! That was what I was hoping for, that there would be some learning value of some sort for people in the video also, not just me ranting about my opinions! :)

I think you made a good point at the beginning of the video. Any and every rules change should be seen thru the viewpoint of "Is this better or worse for the fans enjoying the game". Is any fan tuning in to see a set-fault call?

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah.. The intersing thing is also that there are fans that know the rules, and there are fans who don't. One that knows the rules will befurious watching a double contact not being called, and another one might get confused why someones handset was called. But as I am writing this I realize a sport should probably never be dumbed down so that people that don't know the sport can watch it without having to learn something.. Once you start learning the quirks of a sport you sort of get more invested which makes you more prone to actually engage with the sport later, at least I believe this without having any data to back it up.

@japprivera3129

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast that's a great point but all these rules are appreciation based and no 2 people (referees) will see the same thing at the same time under the same circumstances, it's impossible. Especially when the dynamics of the game do not provide for a clear view of the moves made by players to make a fair call on a perceived fault. It should be dumbed down enough, to make that call on perception one hard to miss.

@racctor

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast Well, I know the rules and i can see doubles most of the time, but i still think its nonsense. I also do not care if my opponents doubled when setting in one motion. I don't want to win because of such an arbitrary nonsense rule anyways.

Really much liked the videos and comments. My experience, and this is shared with some good friends, is that the standard of reffing on a non-professional level is very different from country to country, and also from community to community, and it’s mostly guided by the best players of that community, which can either be a more „lifty“ style or a „quicker“ style. I think it’s good that the sets in beach a different from indoors, and they should be called differently, simply because external conditions are forcing us to play a different game. In terms of the new regulations, there is still a lot of room for interpretation, which makes it very subjective, and this has led to a lot of discussions/frustration, which simply could be avoided if the FIVB would produce official videos of what is allowed and what not. At last, shifting the game to more indoor style rules will have the same effects that we see in indoor, favouring taller players. I always liked about beach volleyball that we see shorter players on a top level, @FIVB please don’t take that away from the sport!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

8 ай бұрын

Good points! I very much agree that there tends to be local rules or interpretations of rules. Very often even really good players don't know the official rules, they could end up arguing about their local rule to the teeth (even if they are not in their local area anymore) and the only way to get them to consider anything else is to actually start reading the rulebook with them. And this is not for "interpretation" rules like what handset is a lift and what is not, but actual clear cut rules. Actually I wonder how much other sports "suffer" from this as well, I haven't really done other sports at a high enough level to notice (except snowboarding but there's no rules in snowboarding haha.)

For me, I am traditionally indoor vb and grass! But I’ve come to learn that sand vb is a whole different sport in itself. I say leave them separate and let them be different! Makes it more fun that way!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Agree! :)

Great video, thanks for discussing the topic in length. I come from indoor but i really enjoy all the beach volley action. Regarding the hand-setting rules, I think that rules needs to be soften, remove the need to be an exper to set with your hands. I see this particular skill to be one of the things creating a gap between players on the beach. So many players only set with underarm pass because they are not confident enough to hand set, too afraid of being called out on it. It is so subjective that it easily create arguments on how much it was carried, how did it go in our out of the hands, and so on. Worst is that players can't play it back so it's my impressions versus yours. For conditions making it hard, maybe it is about being softer on the rule rather than forcing a rule of perfect in and out of the hand. As for comunication to create magic, I think it's mainly that beach players need to be more communicative on tactics of what to set when rather than last second read on your partner.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

4 ай бұрын

Hey! Thanks for the comment! Yes, this is in a sense a great divider.. Actually right now the college indoor volleyball in the USA (if I'm not mistaken) is removing the double rule for handsetting.. And not unsurprisingly, some peopel think it's amazing, and some think it's going to destroy the sport. So I think it's the same here. I can see that the strict handsetting rules can seem unwelcoming, and be a source of conflict. At the same time, if you ask a group of people where everyone has gone through the work of learning how to handset, both do they usually not disagree among eachother about what was a double and what was not, but they also know how much work it took to get to the point where they both knew how to do the skill but also be able to recognize others who can or cannot do the same skill, so if someone who didn't put in these hours to learning the skill themselves comes and suggests the rule be removed, it's almost like an insult. I'm not sure if I'm good at explaining in what way it becomes an insult, but it's just so weird when someone who hasn't done the job that you have, to accomplish something that you wanted to have, come and say this job that you did should from now on not count, because they themselves are not good enough to be able to determine if someone has done the job or not. I don't know, I can see both sides of it.. But in general I like to strive for skillful execution rather than change rules until skillful execution doesn't matter, it's kind of like a life philosophy for me, don't wish it was easier, wish you were better instead. But I understand why the other argument exists even if I don't agree with it. Then when it comes to communication about locations etc, vs reading body language of the other player.. This video, and conversations after this has really opened up my eyes to how many people around the world do not subscribe to this, which I'd say (I might be wrong) pretty much all high level players in at least Sweden and Norway believe in, that there is a tremendous amount of nonverbal communication in the setter-hitter connection. I don't think there are many high level players in these countries that have never trained to set with a technique which will be easily readable for their partner. But at the same time, I have met people from other places that do play well together, without really having this nonverbal communication, but I assume do it more the way you describe, with communication about systems etc. So who is right? I think in the end, the most important thing is that there is some sort of system, and that the two players agree (whether consciously or unconsciously) to use the same system. But this would be really interesting to study, by for example interviewing the top 100 players in the world and do statistics on their beliefs around how this should be done..!

Very informative video. It should be noted that the oldest team on the tour - Latvia’s Samoilovs and Janis Smedins - frequently use jumpsetting in their game. In fact, Sweden’s Hellwig and Ahman were inspired directly by the Latvian team to form their dynamic new style. It should also be noted that the LAT and SWE teams rarely get called for mishandling the set; this is in large part because they practice the skill SO much that it’s second nature to them. Lastly, Mol and Sorum have started to integrate this into their game - not as much of course - but it’s becoming a regular skill they practice. They know they have to keep up with all the changes going on in order to stay on top.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yess! Just not sure if there were any jumpsets in this latest event since the new rule guidelines..! I actually haven't had time to see. But I hope that this type of setting will be fine as long as it is done well of course.

Really good video! Keep creating content like this! 💪

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Can I ask what it is that is good about it? :)

@MILOSDRAGO

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast it’s good that you explain important stuff about beach volleyball but in a really easy way to understand and giving examples

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@MILOSDRAGO Awesome, makes sense! The whole project came about from frustration from not being able to find content that does what you just described, so it's good to hear people experience that with me! Thanks! :)

I completely agree with you. From a technical standpoint, both styles should be legal based on the way the rules are written. The rules govern BALL movement. Both styles involve some part of the body moving backward. That's just Newtonian physics. Neither style (when done correctly) involves the ball going backwards. Not only is it preposterous and physically incorrect to interpret only the "indoor" style as being compliant with the rules, but it goes against decades of beach tradition--denying that Beach Volleyball is actually a different sport than Indoor Volleyball. I would go as far as to say that such an interpretation is a decisive step towards destroying the sport of Beach Volleyball.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much summed it up here! Is there a mic drop emoji somewhere? 🖐 🎤 ➖➖➖➖ No but seriously, I think one should always be open to listen to counterarguments, many times I have had strong opinions just to end up getting to hear good enough counterarguments so I ended up changing my mind or softening my conviction. But so far I haven't heard good enough counterarguments to change my mind about this one, the ones I have heard at least in my belief come from viewpoints that do not understand certain nuances of the game at an advanced level. Not to say I play this game at a professional level at least yet, but it feels like the pros are agreeing with me also considering what I have seen on the internet since these guidelines came around.

I agree with what you've said. I don't hope beach sets become like indoor sets either but it's a fact that lately some beach volleyball pros have taken that "long contact setting" to a new extreme and therefore it might the right call by the fivb to pay more attention to that and try to intervene. Because in my opionion the longer contact gives you a slight advantage because you can guide the ball better to the exact spot you want it and it's easier to remove spin. The Italians (Nicolai for example) have been doing this for a while now. Saymon got called for it three times in the semi finals in Gstaad and at first sight his sets looked super clean because there was absolutely no spin on the ball but if you paid attention you noticed that he had the ball in his hands for a very long time. Personally I would not have needed the new rules because I think in general the hand setting on the world tour is better these days than it used to be but then again if you don't set any boundaries now then people might soon be jumpsetting with lifts and doubles all over the place.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, agree. Crazy lifts should be illegal, obvious doubles should be illegal. I have noticed the italians also and understand if the FIVB wants to tighten up things so that has to be quicker, but things should not go as far as indoor, it's still a different sport.

Great video! Really appreciate your breakdowns and you put out your own opinions while leaving room for discussion. Personally, I'm ambivalent on these guidelines, but what I do know is that, in my opinion, every change that has happened for the last 25 years has been to move beach volleyball closer and closer to indoor. At times I like it, at times I don't, and I just hope it doesn't go too far. But when you think about it, big court to short court took away shots and increased the need to hit, prioritizing tall players with hitting potential. Antennas did the same thing. Then came the hand setting changes as FIVB loosened the calls on doubles. Now changes are being made to take away more "lifty" sets. These rules have allowed for more back setting, jump setting, dumping on two, etc. -- everything more like indoor. Being able to throw down an unintentional overset as a blocker was another one. Personally, even though I'm younger, I like the more old-school version of volleyball, but I respect everyone else's differing opinions. When I go to Kauai, they all play big court side out there and it's amazing. Even if you like the new version of volleyball better, you can't deny that old-school volleyball requires a greater deal of endurance, strength, training, and athleticism. It's just all around more difficult on the body, and I kind of wish volleyball was still that way.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Haha thanks, and good work on doing the same, giving opinions but still with a tone that allows for discussion! 😄 Yeah I understand what you mean. I too like some of these rules, and some not.. I have actually still never played antennaless, 9x9meter sideoutscoring beach volleyball.. But I should probably make that happen one day to feel the difference. I don't mind rules like that it is possible to handset over the net in some situations, possible to handset the first ball (as long as it is as clean as a set) and that setting over the shoulder is legal as long as it is clean. These make a more versatile game with more different possibilities and places to build up your skill that then makes it fun to play and watch because you don't always know what is coming. But maybe I'd think differently if I had played in the era before these things were allowed. I believe there is a huge connection thing with allowing the handset to be just a little bit softer than in indoor, but in my experience it is a bit more of an advanced skill to utilize this connection. It takes a hitter that reads the body language of the setter rather than always having a system of "ball should be set to position X in situation Y, position V in situation P etcetc". This allows for more creativity, flow and "magic" to happen "on the go" in the game, as well as helps in windy games as it is easier for the attacker to start the approach before the set has left the hands of the setter. This can all still be done in a "ball will only move outwards in the hands of the setter"-way, just that you absorb the ball with both wrists and fingers rather than only wrists.. Another thing I have against going "full indoor" with the rules is that in my experience even good indoor handsetters tend to have some "irrationality" in the location of the set ball, it just goes where it was not intended, and I believe this might be because of minor changes in where the ball lands in the hands because of wind in combination with a super quick touch. It's just not as fun to play this sport if we artificially make good setters bad with "cookie cutter" type rule use from another sport that has different foundational requirements like weather and environment. Now, here's an interesting thing: Let's say they push through and make beach setting into indoor setting. Then the players who start playing from now on will never be able to learn and experience the somewhat advanced nuances of the game that I just talked about. Their setting will probably just be less accurate, less connection between hitter and setter, game will get more boring to watch and play.. and that's just the way it is because at this point the player themselves aren't even aware things could be different! Just rhe same way as I am relatively unaware of nuances in the old school game that maybe made the game better back then. Nah, to be honest I have in general terms liked the balance in handsetting lately. Strict enough that you can't actually lift or double contact the ball, but still lenient enough so that reading the setter is possible as well as doing a bit more challenging sets like jumpsets, falling recovery handsets etc.. :)

@taylorstephens1707

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast I think I agree with almost everything you've said here haha. I think we've reached a great balance in hand setting. There are certain things I personally would like to go back to the old school way that have nothing to do with setting though, like the ability to throw down an overset -- I always found that addition to be cheap, easy to do, and no fun to watch. I can teach anyone athletic and over 6 ft tall to throw down an overset in about five minutes. As for hand setting, again, I think I'm like 99% in agreement with you. I like the balance now and what it adds. But I REALLY don't want it to go any further into the direction of indoor. My overall point was that, from my perspective, all collective rule changes have taken us closer to indoor-style play: sometimes that's good, sometimes that's not, but I fear it going too far and ruining the sport. Personally, I prefer big court side out for other reasons; the overly strict hand setting is definitely not what makes it great. Definitely give it a try sometime though! It's fun and extremely demanding on the body. One of the first times I played in Hawaii, I was locked at 9-9 for a full half hour. Eventually, we lost simply because the other team was more physically fit than me. My legs gave out, I lost my endurance, couldn't jump the same, etc. It was a huge lesson in terms of upping my training regimen, as I think that helps in short court tournaments too. I know to some people what I probably mentioned sounds like hell haha, but I think, to fully appreciate the game, it's necessary to experience where it came from, so you can appreciate and evaluate where the game is now from a more objective context. I love watching the jump setting and backwards falling sets, but I also enjoy watching the old school version, where every ball comes out perfectly still, and each player has to make a strategic decision on whether to bump or hand set.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

@@taylorstephens1707 Makes sense! :) Never thought too much about the throwing down oversets, but you'd like the rules to be so that you have to hit thr ball down instead? Yes definitely need to try to play the oldschool game one day, the psychological and physilogical requirements for sure changes with the side-out scoring! :) Regarding the falling setsand jumpsets, I'd say 80% of them are still perfectly still, 20% of them have just a slight slow rotation to them, and anything worse than that is usually a double. I don't like "chucking" the ball regardless of how "spectacular" the set would be, real skill is in making the sets clean and legal (as well as good for the attacker) in the spectacular plays.

@taylorstephens1707

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast Hitting the ball is of course the most fun to do and watch, but also poking, cutting, or having to choose whether to joust or not or is where all the excitement and skill is at. Again, almost anyone athletic and over 6 feet can learn to throw an overset down in minutes. But try to teach them to swing at, poke, shoot, or joust an overset and they'll either miss the ball or wind up in the net. You could spend an hour just on this and I would guess they still probably wouldn't get it. As for the addition to your take on setting, totally agree. I hate when players call spin alone as a double when there's not much, because as we all know, it's the hands that indicate a double. But then again, I personally believe that if it's spinning like a tornado, it pretty much has to be chucked out of their hands. I'm also a big believer of the de facto "sliding scale" that a lot of FIVB and AVP refs use nowadays. If it comes out of the hands a little quicker, be a little more lenient on some spin. If it stays in the hands longer, I prefer the ball to come out still or barely moving.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@taylorstephens1707 Makes sense! I actually haven't heard about the "sliding scale" as something actually being used by refs before, but that sounds pretty logical actually! Yesterday I was playing late at night when the air was very humid, or like damp, the ball was semi-wet from the air all the time at least. I noticed some of the balls I set did spin a little, but I also noticed that one hand had a good grip on the ball, while the other slipped a bit because of the wetness, but not enough for the ball to slip through my hands. It was interesting to notice, because I am pretty sure I technically didn't double some of these balls but they came out with some spin even though I'm positive they would have been spinless if the ball had had proper grip. Not sure if this is relevant to the conversation, just an obervation that I found interesting! 😅

One thing I heard was that this change was to disallow hand sets in worse situations like in rallies or from bad passes. And by doing this, enabling defenders to get a bit more advantage and hence also get more saves and longer rallies.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm! I mean yes, if you take away the sharpest and best knife from the cook, the cook will spend more time making the same meal and the meal might be a bit worse. I can see the longer rallies argument, but I am not sure that making this happen with artificially making good players into worse players by making some of their skills illegal is the way to go. Skillful acts have tons of entertainment value also, and part of the reason to watch professionals play is to be able to observe the highest levels of skills. If the best entertainment is to be found in long rallies, why not broadcast competitions of intermediate level beach volleyball at the level where everybody on the court has learned fairly good serve receive, setting and defending (ball control) but cannot yet attack properly? Those rallies go on forever because noone is able to kill the ball... Maybe not the best example, but I believe there is still some validity to it.. In my opinion, some of the most exciting plays are when someone fixes a bad defensive ball into a perfect attacking opportunity with excellent setting skills, in other words when someone very skillful uses the best of their abilities to pull of the "impossible." Not sure the way forward is to remove these parts of the game. 2 clarifications: 1: Mikael I hope you understand this above is not criticism towards you, you just explained whet you heard the possible reasoning might be. So the criticism is against the possible reasoning rather than the messenger (you.) 2: My opinion above stands if the push is from the FIVB to actually make beach handsetting have the same strictness as indoor handsetting in terms of lifting. I do think there should be strictness to lifting, just not as strict as indoors.

@MikeAIright

Жыл бұрын

I think longer rallies is better for the game and thats true womens beach volleyball is more entertaining to watch because they have longer rallies.

I think they also need to clarify the calls for double contact when handsetting. In my experience, at least amateur refs tend to call double contact more than carrying the ball. They call double on sets that wouldnt be double in indoor volley ball.

@dominiccarbone449

Жыл бұрын

This happens a lot because most people are told growing up playing outdoor that if there's spin on the ball it's a double and so that seems to be the standard, despite a lot of doubles coming out clean and some spinning balls not actually being doubles.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, an official, very clear, well produced and well distributed clarification for what is a good handset and what is not would be very welcome for the sport. FIVB feel free to contact me if you'd want help producing something like that or help brainstorming ideas for it.

@andresmoreno4179

Жыл бұрын

@@dominiccarbone449 the rules says, that the contact needs to be at the same time, but what you do afterwards should make no difference. Spinning balls should not be called out neither in indoor or outdoors. In any case, a double touch is not an advantage since normally those balls are not set at the perfect heigth and timing for the hitter.... one big mistake a see in my students is that they do not set... they just put a ball high in the air.... but that is not setting...

@potNuts

Жыл бұрын

There has been a long-standing tradition of calling doubles much more strictly in beach, and calling lifts much more strictly in indoor. As was astutely pointed out in this video, it stems from the differences in the nature of the sports. I'm all for transparency and clarity in the rules, but let's not pretend beach and indoor are the same sport.

Thanks for your thoughts dude! I honestly don't think one way is better or worse for the game overall, but it's the lack of clarity and consistency that is detrimental to the game at all levels all around the world, IMO. It's like if the NBA decided to have very specific guidelines around dribbling: no touching the sides of the ball, no more than 1 second of "hang time" in between bounces, whatever; it's a very central part of the game, but if there isn't a clear and objective way to enforce nuances, and those nuances aren't giving anyone a big advantage, maybe it's ok to have a little leeway in the "rules" (not a perfect analogy, but yeah)

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, interesting take! I like it. Clarity is a must in things as central as this, otherwise the conversation/refereeing around the world will just get infected, plain and simple..!

i feel that if outdoor is going to push to more of an indoor style setting the doubles will have to be more lenient. most indoor sets are beautiful with little to no rotation on the ball but there are still quite a few especially when a non-setter has to take the set or when the setter is on a run that if playing outdoor would be called a double just due to how much the ball rotates. I know rotation does determine a double but it is a good indicator in many circumstances. But more on the topic of this video, with this guideline change, we will see fewer deep sets. I learned to outdoor set by making my contact with the ball lower near my chest, particularly on a bad pass where I knew I was going to have to push more to get the set where I wanted it and as I got better I started making contact higher but I still see these deep sets when watching AVP from time to time so it'll be interesting to see how this guideline change affects those sets and games. I'm no professional and never will be but as a lover of the game, it will be interesting to see the change in the game for points lost to "bad" sets with the refs being more strict.

@leelandutube

Жыл бұрын

I think you are incorrect on your comment about rotation determining a double Check this:) kzread.info/dash/bejne/YpWNpJKDj6i0mtI.html

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah.. Will be interesting to see if the AVP will follow suit with FIVB or not, from what I have seen, deeper sets have allowed on the AVP compared to the FIVB. But in general I don't agree with the whole "make beach into indoor"-movement, they are two different sports with different physics, which makes different rules make sense.

As an indoor setter, it’s more about seeing the attacker’s approach and their “window” is so you can shoot it to where they are/in their window. Also as an indoor setter, I always get called for doubles any time I try to “wrist” set on beach. In indoor refs are much more lenient with double calls in my experience Edit: if there were a rule change for beach to be more lenient on doubles, it would (maybe) be better for faster/more exciting offenses as the setter can focus much more on location/tempo rather than not doubling. Thoughts?

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! I like the question. My immediate thought is that there is a massive difference between doing this in a windless environment vs in wind - both the ball won't move right before the setter contacts the ball making the setter mishit it a little, and secondly the ball will fly more reliably to where the setter is actually aiming the ball. I need to think about this more, but I have a feeling that certain aspects about making good plays would get better if your proposition went through, while other aspects about making good plays would go down, the question is what would the net total effect for making good plays be? I'd love to see an indoor setter try to play like this in heavy wind before having a strong opinion about this.. But my gut feeling says that even if you keep sets low in heavy wind, the ball will still move so much that the hitter has better chances to adapt to a less "wrist flicky indoor set" that they can read a bit, than the setter has chances to adapt to the attackers approach. But I could be wrong. Any good indoor setters with access to stormy conditions up for an experiment? :)

Where did you read about these new guidelines? Did they come out with an announcement that they updated the guidelines? Can you link that announcement in that case.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

11 ай бұрын

Sorry this comment slipped me by so this is a WAY late answer, but here's the link anyway to the playlist with the video examples: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oI2Hy7R_eZXHepc.html Fortunately, in the end this "update" to the rules barely made any difference, a slight tightening of lifts, that I agree was getting a bit out of hand there in the end before the "update".

Longer rallies are more fun. Our group decided its illegal to hand set ... and men net height is 4 inch higher and women 1 inch higher. And court is smaller 2 feet each side. And bear or weed is a must :)

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Hahah! I can see this side of it too, and I can't say you are wrong, even if I'd myself be vehemontly against making handsets illegal everywhere for example. There is fun to be found in many different sources, longer rallies, better connection between players etcetc, and some of these "fun sources" might be contradicting eachother..!

Nice video my friend. We are waiting for you on Ibiza island to come and have fun.... I was just an indoor player at 21 when I went to California to live. There I played my first doubles tournament back in the 80´s, and my sets were being called out all the time, although the ball was clean, although sometimes with some minor spin on it... to my view, it was wrong since what I saw was that the players kept the ball "too long" in their hands and it was clear for me that it was a lift... I was mad... now with some more years in my life I don´t get mad anymore, but the handset rules are somehow outdated... Let me explain... If you do not contact the ball well as we volleyball players are taught, but rather with the palms and/or closed fingers, and/or you contact clearly with two hands, the ball is not going to be set well enough, and therefore what it appears as a advantage, it becomes a negative aspect because the ball is not going to go where it is supposed to go.... So I really will simplify the double touch and I would consider not to call it... it is different when we talk about lifting, since this really brings an advantage... In indoor there is a discussion already about making the handset rules "easier"... By the way, a good indoor setter does not use the whole body to set most of the time, neither all their arm length since most sets need to be quick and low in order to cheat the blockers... Both techniques, indoor and outdoor should be allowed... I send you all volleyball lovers in this channel my respect.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Heyy! Intereating, makes sense! Would be fun to come to Ibiza, hope you are doing well! I'll answer to your message! :)

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Or actually, already did answer, just making sure it was an actual message from you and not a spam/virus link! :)

I always thought it was strange handsetting existed in volleyball. My vote is for indoor and outdoor handsetting to be illegal. Volleyball is already crazy offensive. The rallys would get a little bit longer as offense is weakened. Indoor one hand setting still allowed.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Hahah interesting take! You do have a point, compared to many other sports like tennis etc, it is crazy offensive. I'm not 100% sure I agree with you since handsetting adds according to me a beautiful/entertaining dimension to the sport in many ways (even more so with jumpsetting), but I do see your point. I have heard some places playing without handsets because of the difficulty to call the errors. Would be interesting to see a pro match where handsetting is not allowed (and the players would get a month to get used to that beforehand), just as an experiment to see if it would get less offensive or not.. I believe there might be a chance that at least beach volleyball would be pretty much as offensive as today (after all good bumpsetting is still good setting) just more boring to watch because of less variety.. But impossible to know unless you try I guess! :)

My opinion: I think indoor hand setting is tactically better if you are playing with a partner who you are familiar with. Beach technique is something used to compensate for things like 🌬️ and 🌞. I totally understand how these rules could deter new players though as indoor setting technique is usually one of the hardest skills for athletes coming from other sports to master.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! Could possibly be the case if we are talking true skilled indoor setting. Are there any players on the world tour that according to you use an indoor setting technique?

I ref national tournaments here as a lv2, and hopefully being involved in a challenger event later in the year. From viewing the email my understanding from talking with lv4 referees is that the correct way to interpret the new criteria is that wrists must move in one direction during the set, fingers will be fine. The email states the ball must be met, not absorbed. If you watch the matches from Gstaad where these criteria were implemented, the difference was minimal from the referee guidelines 9.9 which state there must not be significant movement of the ball downwards, yet fingers are allowed to flex. My understanding is that the criteria are just there to reinforce that the rules & guidelines should be followed with more vigor, as the rules committee have noticed a significant loosening of standards around lifts. Imo the connection comes from the setter noticing their partners speed of approach and setting to match, rather than the approaching player adjusting to the setter. As such the 10th of a second difference in readability, with less than a seconds reaction time will not effect the connection you mention. The guidelines are presumably being enforced for lifts due to having the extra time with the ball in the setter's hands gives an unfare advantage to the attacking team. With the push to standardise the indoor & beach codes, you'll notice that doubles have been relaxed due to doubles not inferring an advantage (if you double the ball will not go where you want it to).

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reply! When looking at Gstaad games, I noticed several sets where wrists moved down while elbows/shoulders/body moved up so much that total movement of ball was up, while still providing a "softness" from both wrists and fingers that according to me gives a readability to the hitter. So it seems like "all is good" even to someone with my preferences/opinions. I cannot agree that connection should go the way that the only adapting player is the setter, according to me a huge difference if the attacker can adapt to the actual set a few milliseconds before the ball is released or not. Disregarding the value of milliseconds in a sport where decisions and actions are happening in milliseconds is according to me a misunderstanding of the sport at best, high level volleyball relies a lot on actions and reactions "faster than one can think." The "flow state" is sometimes even called a "nontinking state" where reaction speed is insanely fast. I'd argue subtle cues and actions at the millisecond level are incredibly important if you want to play or watch a sport that is so skillful and fast that it leaves both players themselves and audience wondering how what just happened is possible, in other words the "magic" that makes sport exciting. Another disagreement/counteraegument: Being allowed to double the ball has huge advantages - you don't need to learn the skill of handsetting, and you can handset in a bunch of situations where you could not handset if doubling the ball is not allowed. It dumbs down the sport and takes away skill, which makes the sport less sophisticated and is a slap in the face for people who have actually taken their time to learn the skill. If someone wants to play an easier version of the sport, please do so, but do not force the dumbing down upon everyone. Fortunately the allowed doubling of the ball hasn't gone as far as indoor, at this moment the rules seem quite reasonable to me both regarding lifting and doubling. But yeah, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, thanks for sharing yours! As long as the strictness stays the way it was in the Gstaad gold medal match I'm for these new guidelines, because as you say, the refereeing was actually getting a bit too relaxed on lifting. I'd have wished for better examples from FIVB for less confusion, but it is what it is I guess.

@johnjakobjinglysmith

Жыл бұрын

Like with anything new, the referees in Gstaad were refereeing under these criteria for the first time, just like players were playing under them for the first time, there's bound to be differences in how the criteria are applied. It will be interesting to see how this develops over future events, and how it goes with keeping the referees out of the game. So my point is that fivb "may" have considered having the ability for the setter to have so much control over the tempo of the set due to allowing it to remain in the hands longer, or have significant downward movement while in the hands as referee guidelines specificly directs as a fault, to give a unfair advantage, and to make the connection you mention too easy to achieve. Mind you I'm only speculating on the reasoning. Certainly not going to debate on the skill of being able to set cleanly. As someone who began playing in the 90's I don't disagree, but this is the way fivb want to move, and the stated reasoning is by holding the ball for longer it gives an unfair advantage in the control the player has, as opposed to doubling. So the email explicitly says that it is not changing the rules that setting is judged on, only the focus & criteria referees apply. The rules & referee guidelines still apply, therefore downward movement is allowed so long as it's quick, doesn't stop in the hands, and doesn't significantly move downwards. So I've purposely not stated my opinion on this change, (aside from the remark that a 10th of a second comment which you can google to see fastest possible reaction speed for humans is over 0.1sec or a 10th of a second, and average reaction time is over 0.2sec, that my comment that the change will have little effect on the hitters approach, isn't unreasonable), so please don't attribute one to me reiterating what I've been informed by people more knowledgable. I'm simply letting you know what I've been told to help the communities understanding, and lessen the concern 👍

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@johnjakobjinglysmith Thanks a lot on the clarification, this makes a lot of sense! Yes we will have to see in the future, but from seeing some of the sets that were allowed both in Gstaad and Agadir, my guards are now down and I don't feel there is a need to fight, enough "lifting" for me to think that the connection can happen has been allowed in these tournaments, and lifts more extreme than that has been called, so it is actually perfect for my taste. The reaction speed stuff is interesting and I was actually considering adding to my last reply: I actually have a video coming up about this, because I measured my visual reaction speed...! 0.13 seconds when I was "in the zone", and 0.25 seconds when I just reacted quickly without being in this "zone" state where I'd argue a player is when they react hyper fast to things and play top level volleyball. Now, I'd just want to know how long a typical good beach handset stays in the hands of the setter, vs a typical indoor handset, so that I'd actually know the time difference between these two.. There's a chance that will be something I spend some time on tonight..!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@johnjakobjinglysmith Ok damn I went and did some math and this is where things got interesting!! Out of the two examples in my video, the quicker one (which I believe is rougly as quick as a good indoor set) was in my hands for about 0.0825 seconds, while the slower one which I'd categorize as a "fast beach set with no lift but still readable for attacker" was in my hands for about 0.1175 seconds. So in one way, the difference is just 0.035 seconds, which is indeed not much. The time of ball in hands IS roughly enough for the human reaction speed to kick in on the "fast beach set" but not on the "indoor set" if we assume human reaction speed is just over 0.1 second which we both seem to agree with even though some science will claim it is about 0.2 seconds... But I am not sure if this actually is relevant, thinking further here as I am writing this comment, here is what I actually think is relevant: In the "indoor set" the direction and speed of the push into the ball happens AFTER absorbtion in the fingers, which means time to gather info about release angle/velocity is maybe just half of the time the ball is in hands (more exact numbers soon.) In the "fast beach set" the angle/velocity starts to be available information actually a tiny bit BEFORE the ball even touches the hands, at least if the set is done with the technique I like where the setter as clearly as possible shows the intention of the set with their body language to the hitter, and then transports the ball with and even speed while ball is in the hands, rather than accelerating through the movement. So if I go and redo my slowmotion video analysis from when I believe angle/velocity information becomes available to when the ball releases the hands rather than the time ball is touching hands, I get the numbers 0.0375 seconds for the indoor set, and 0.15 seconds for the fast beach set, even 0.26 seconds if the setter is really good at showing direction/velocity early with their body language. Now if these numbers are correct the difference would actually be somewhere between 0.1125 to 0.2225 seconds, which is roughly the same as 1 or 2 times the human visual reaction speed. Would love any thoughts and scrutiny on this train of thought. At the moment as I am writing this, this feels like a "scientific explanation" for my experience which says that "indoor sets" on the beach are impossible to read before the ball has actually left the hands of the setter, while "fast beach sets" allow me to start my direction of my approach before the ball has left the hands of the setter, which increases the joy of playing and connection massively. I'd almost like to describe it as playing "with" the partner, rather than playing "after" the partner has played their part. However, I want to stay humble to the effects of self-serving confirmation bias and realize I could have taken mental shortcuts in order to get to a result that points towards my conclusion being right.. and therefore more than welcome counterarguments! :) Damn, I found this conversation/investigation super fascinating, might even make a video of this..!

all i care about is to loosen up the set lol or leave it as what it is right now, it is fun right now. Beach vball needs to promote better and do more fun things to increase the popularity of the sport.

Can you please give a link to this new standards? Can't find.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe I should add it to the description of the video. Anyway, here are the video examples: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oI2Hy7R_eZXHepc.html

@lpaveld

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast thanks. These are not official fivb videos, right?

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@lpaveld These are the videos the FIVB sent out..!

Does anyone have a link for this new setting rule?

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Here'sthe video examples sent out by FIVB about what should be ok and what shouldn't! kzread.info/dash/bejne/oI2Hy7R_eZXHepc.html

@robertbucks5537

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast interesting stuff. I doubt the AVP follows the FIVB's lead. Also, different national tours trying to enforce these new guidelines will be tricky. They didn't provide examples of setting over the net, back sets, jump sets and falling down sets.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

@@robertbucks5537 Agreed 100%. Lots of unclarity here, to the point that one might call it unprofessional. This is potentially a huge change to one of the most fundamental moves in the sport, changes on that level should not be done with unclarity present.

It's physically impossible for the mass center of the ball to not move backwards at least a little bit before it's accelerated forward again, so technically the rule is impossible to follow. It will always be a judgement call about how fast it needs to happen to not be visible.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Hahah I guess you are right, since the ball compresses even on an impact hit, making mass center of the ball move towards the object impacting the ball for a few microseconds before taking off in the other direction..! Never thought about that before..! 🤔🧐

@cirrus2013

Жыл бұрын

I agree. The rule ist STUPID. What does it say about it's creators? :) Let physicists rule!

The connection between players will always adapt to rules, I see no problem here. The main goal I see is to make the game more popular, to engage new players more. Making setting rules less strict is a big step to it, it makes new players easier to start playing. Pro's will adapt anyways.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

I think I disagree here on both points, but I can of course be wrong. I believe the connection by rules of physics inevitably gets worse if setting rules go "full indoor", mainly because the randomness caused by wind in combination with hyper fast setting simply creates inconsistency. I could be wrong here and not see the possibilities, but I have never seen anyone play like that on a really high level, at least I wouldn't dare change the rules of a game to something that none of the highest level pros do successfully. To be noted here is that with "full indoor" I actually mean as quick of a touch as indoor volleyball. For example Anders Mol has a very quick touch in beach but I wouldn't say it is as quick as indoor setters. If rules go as strict as everyone has the be as quick as Anders Mol, then I believe the connection can still be there and I wouldn't mind the strictening of the rules. I kinda hope and believe this is what is going to happen. Regarding to easyness for new players.. I see your point. Spikeball for example is very easy to get into for new players because there isn't a complex movement like handsetting to be learned. But the handsetting skill also adds a little mystic and enticing feature of "next level" to the game, which can make people really want to learn it and become one of the people who can use this tool. I believe going through this process also creates a type of loyality for the sport. Once you have invested into learning it, you feel more mastery - this I believe can "up" your investment levels to the sport rather than go play some other sport. Besides, beginners can always start playing with bumpsetting only, or with relaxed handsetting rules. But who knows, time will tell I guess. Indoor rules on handsetting are so strict on lifting that most amateurs never learn to have any softness in their fingers, just "chucking" at the ball with stiff fingers like a beginner player would. Then often they end up doing this for years so that the habit becomes very strong - making it not impossible to change but into a reality where most people never change and then they are stuck with low level handsetting skills for the rest of their lives. I really hope this won't be the fate of beach volleyball also. My best guess and hope is that worst lifts will be removed, Anders Mol type of quick but still beachy setting will be allowed, most all will be happy and the sport will not become a worse sport, maybe even better than it is today. But everyone is entitled their opinion and backup arguments. These were mine that came up to me from reading this comment. I hope this comment field can be a safe space to express and discuss these opinions amd reasonings, even among the inevitable disagreements that will happen.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Edit/add: I went and looked at some video from the recent tournament after the guidelines were introduced, and the sets at 1min23sec and 3min14sec in this video tells me that all is well. They were not called for a lift but were definitely lifty enough to allow for the setter-hitter connection that I refer to, to happen. I might have been overly scared (which led to an overreaction) by some "horror stories" of sets like these being called for a lift.

@azuqah5823

Жыл бұрын

Making setting rules less strict is horrible for the game for that same reason. It allows new player to get away with a lot when they need to learn the rules of the game. A double is a double and a lift is a lift it’s that simple. Once you start allowing that stuff you take away from the art of the sport that these pros work hard to achieve. I worked hard for my hands but I still call them a lot cause it’s not fair to allow a point go when the ball doesn’t come clean. It’s a disadvantage

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@azuqah5823 I agree. "Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better." or something like this is what it says on the wall of my favorite gym in Bali.. If we make everything easy then what is the point? Having to learn skills makes one invested in the sport. I can see the other side too, it is not like 0 skill is required to set well without double and lift rules, but I dunno, there's something about staying sophisticated rather than dumbing things down. Learning to handset within the rules used to be a great mystery for me, which actually made me even more motivated to learn the sport.

@azuqah5823

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast yes I love that quote that is awesome. And a lot of people are this way. I know a lot of new players and they always ask me to call their hands because they don’t know the difference but they want to learn. The rules behind setting alone makes all these new guys so eager to get better especially with their hands.

I still could barely tell the difference between your two demonstrations at the end of the video. Could you clarify more on just that change because I could barely see the difference in your techniques

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, not super much difference I agree. Basically, the first one I tried absorbing the ball with my fingers and wrists, while moving outward with legs, shoulders and elbows. This is what I believe most good beach handsetters do. Second example I tried to absorb the ball only with fingers, while moving outwards with legs, shoulders, elbows AND wrists. This is what I believe most indoor setters do (except in reality they maybe don't use legs, shoulders and elbows so much, mostly just absorb ball with fingers while pushing away with wrists, depending on situation a bit..) Does that make sense?

@dchin1564

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast Thank you, I think it does for the most part. I just am a little confused to when you say absorbing with either the fingers or the wrists. Do you mean that you allow your fingers or wrist to go down first before you touch the ball and then go up with them to contact the ball?

I have a simple opinion: The handsetting rule should be strict, allowing both wrists and/or fingers to absorb, and just like you said, only one outwards direction, while touching. The rules should not be any looser, because after all this sport is about hitting the ball, not catching and throwing. And you can ALWAYS set with underarm pass or sleeve hit, what ever it is called in english. I already dont like the rule that allows players to do a handset over the net, because after all this is a hitting sport, not a sport where you throw the ball : D To sum it up: Strict and clear to all handsetting rule is good in my opinion!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

From watching the latest tournaments, I believe this is pretty much exactly what is happening, and that it is the right thing. Personally I like the overset possibility because it gives a bit extra spice to the game, but that's personal I guess! :) What country are you from? I am asking because of the "sleeve hit" reference, so far I have only heard Finnish people call it a "sleeve hit"! :)

I think that rules of setting the ball should be without catching the ball. Player should set the ball without any visible delay. As fast as possible. That will be much more fun to watch. Then possibility of lifts evaporates instantly. Doubles should not be considered if they are done fast and in one motion. The more fast paced is the game the more fun is to watch. Fun. I also set with one hand. Fist, pokes etc. Partner should know where to expect the ball. Prior to match both partners should have conversations where to set the ball and when.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree with you here, because in my opinion the wind is too big of a factor in beach. The wind can move the ball a slight bit all the way until it is in your hands (making you "miss" just a tiny bit), and if you then set "as fast as possible", these sets become erratic as you end up hitting the ball unevenly. These erratic sets are much more difficult to hit and the game just becomes overall worse, more boring to play, more boring to watch because hitters have trouble finding their rhythm. Indoor volleyball has a 100% guaranteed wind-free environment. The quicker touches and pre-determined setting locations make much more sense there. In beach volleyball the wind can change direction mid rally in a chaotic defensive ball - if the hitter can read the body language of the setter in this situation it is still possible to find a setter-hitter connction that makes high level volleyball happen, if this is disallowed it just becomes sloppy volleyball. I am however 100% open to be proven wrong here, as this is based on my expeience and I am by no means the "perfect player." But so far I have never seen anyone pull off this kind of setter-hitter connection with a technique that makes reading of the setters body language impossible. Anyone is of course free to send me videos and prove me wrong though!

@LORDVADER357

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast Wind factor can be taking into account. Partner should see the ball and react fast accordingly. The faster is the set the more dificult is for oponents to read the situation. Top player take wind into its favor. For me personaly is very easy to set the ball regardless of the wind. Without catch. However slightly possibility for doubles exist. So i am set with one hand via pokes, fists etc. Or bumps. Consistancy comes from training and practice. The more you play the better you become. The faster the set the less effect has the wind. The more fast paced becomes the game. Poke sets, fist sets. Open handed very sharp sets. Alternative styles pretty much like your friend Eric styles.

So the connection between the players I think should come from making calls (eg before serve receive or during the rally), also maybe you can draw straight line from setters shoulders to wrists, to see where is the intention to set. I don't think allowing prolonged contact is a good argument regarding this "connection" thing. As to the question if it should be like an indoor, I believe FIVB wants the judgement to be exactly like indoors meaning same overhand action would be legal on all surfaces. Because base CATCH and DOUBLE contact rules are exactly the same. The beach has different first contact rule where the ball has to be as clean as any other contact when using overhand finger action, while indoors you can double the first ball even with fingers. And this makes it indoors players to receive the ball overhand without a fault everytime, and beach its usually not worth the risk. For me its really strange to hear how indoors set is easier, but same people also complain that refs make much more calls now. Also saying we will lose jump setting or side setting sounds very wrong. Most of the indoor sets are jump sets, also FIVB video examples contains correct versions of side setting, so all good its still there! Basically the players started to absorb the ball contact with their fingers which is illegal. What players started doing they wait for the ball to stop in their hands, absorbing all the momentum, and then quickly throw it up with their own new muscle power. But the ball should go down putting tension to the muscles of rigid fingers, and from that rebound and shot back up from the finger platform. So as you said only fingers may go down a bit, sort of loading the gun, and then shooting.

@OCDlafsen

2 жыл бұрын

Completely disagree. Indoor you have a fixed environment. Outdoor you have chaotic environment - shifting sand, glare of sun and gusts of wind. Athletes needs technical and rules difference to control the ball and create intended flow and direction. It's simple biomechanical and physical differences opting for other rules with the goal of making the sport visually appealing and fun to participate in. It's also mathematically undisputed: Taking away options to move the ball will remove diversity and creativity. Beach creates deception and connection by whole body. Volley creates it by more athletes and several targets. (very simplified). The argument of having applying same interpretation to rules for a two man game, no coach, no sub, no rotation outside on sand vs. a 6 man, several coach, full rotation, back/front court limitations indoor is broken. The rules are already different. I love Swedish jumpset, Adrian Carambula on the sand just as much as Bruno Rezende and Luciano De Gecco on the floor. Yet they are different and compete different sports. It's only FIVB officials that want to merge them into one. I like the difference. It's grown from the environment and rules in which they compete.

@SimasSkilinskas

2 жыл бұрын

@@OCDlafsen I somewhat agree with you. My main concern is that all of the differences should be written, not made up from the air. We already have a buch of them. So there are option to relax indoor setting and keep base ruling identical, or make a written difference for the beach. As I mentioned earlier we do already have a lot of written differeces, but CATCH rule never was one of them.

@chriswilson203

2 жыл бұрын

@@SimasSkilinskas Indoor jump setting seems to be very different from what you see on the beach from the Swedes or Miles Partain. Granted I don't watch a whole lot of indoor apart from the Olympics but the jump sets for indoor seem to be done without trying to deceive blockers about whether the setter is hitting or setting but rather deceive the blockers about where the ball is being set.

@SimasSkilinskas

2 жыл бұрын

@@chriswilson203 ofcourse its different, but emphasis on current topic is contact lenght, and that the same set done on different surface should result in same judgemet, because we only judge finger contact with the ball, not the reason behind or the goal of the jumpset.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

@@SimasSkilinskas Are you somehow associated with the FIVB? Just happened to notice that the example videos from the FIVB are on your channel! Interesting conversation you guys got here, lots of details in it that are interesting, will try to comment a bit more later!

as indoor setter i set without spin. So beach volleyball is way easier for me to set even i sometimes too slow to get under the ball in time. but frustration is when i receive serving balls over head with open hands. i could not find rule forbid that. need your opinion and video. (i am not talking about hard drivel ball,)

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Makes sense! In beach it is technically legal to serve recive with open hands, as long as the touch is "clean" (no lift, no double.) With the way the handsetting rules have been so far in beach, this has made serve receiving with open hands extremely uncommon, because the risk four double contacting the ball is very high. Taking the first contact on a freeball occasionally happens with open hands. However, IF the FIVB is now pushing handsetting rules to be super tight regarding to lifting, but simultaneously not being tight regarding to doubling the ball, I think technically that means that one might as well start serve receiving with open hands just like indoor. I hope someone who is in charge of the rules realizes that beach and indoor are diffrent sports in different environments that should have different rules before we get that far...

I think you've seen the yt links of examples for the refs? Sorry for linking, but they're so good: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oI2Hy7R_eZXHepc.html

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

Yess I've seen them! But I'd wish for some better quality video for an organization as big as FIVB with a possibly big rule change.. Most phones can do slowmotion video nowadays so it doesn't take much work..!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

But thanks for posting the link, very relevant in this comment section of course!

@OCDlafsen

2 жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast I've also seen the videos forwarded by a friend. It's embarrassing for a governing body to even think about using them for any brainstorm about rules and interpretation. The athletes themselves have the motor skills they have which are fine for regional representation. But to choose below international athletes (and only 2!) to weigh arguments about international exposure, creativity, broadcast.... It's not a good place to start...

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

@@OCDlafsen Good point. Not a very professional move all of this from FIVB one could argue. I guess it's easy to be the critic without knowing the background, but still, I'm with you on this one.

My 2 cents: fuk the FIVB, let's have fun!

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Hahaha! Yes I guess anyone is allowed to play with their own rules, just gotta find the people who wanna play under the same rules! :)

I don't really get what was changed. I just generally think hand setting rules should get a big overhaul. Just allow doubles.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah in the end I think not much changed. Stricter refereeing on the worst lifts. Not sure I agree with allowing doubles, but always open to hear good arguments! :)

3:30 I do recognize it. For me the moment that killed that vibe was the "rally point" creation, it killed the excitement and did nothing for the game, that now these organisations and over righteous players want to keep alive with their stupidity, and need of making a perfectly fine sport into an unwatchable and un enjoyable experience.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Yeah.. I still gotta try to play some more sideout scoring games to experience it more, I was never a part of that era so I lack experience to be able to say too much about it!

@japprivera3129

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast Try it, no rally point, no serves hitting and dropping over the net, 15 points. Your mental game will improve and you'll get a better physical condition.

@statmango

Жыл бұрын

@@japprivera3129 With sideout scoring, I always felt like I had a chance to win any game. Back in the day, I once fell behind 14-2 in a game to 15 and came back to win. That would be a lot tougher with rally point scoring.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@japprivera3129 Yess I will try! As @statmango wrote, more difficult to get back from a big score difference in rally scoring, because it's like time is running out.

Limiting technical aspect to create connection and creativity will only impact the game negatively - from athlete to spectator. Most people watching BV play BV. Using these "athletes" / ("Hacks") as template for any debate & rules evaluation is insulting to the spirit of the sport... Link: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lKyFo7GaeqvOYto.html The Ref's and FIVB trying to govern the game - does not understand the court action - let alone able participating in it. Perhaps that's why they became governors rather than participants? I've still to experience any ref or FIVB official that can actually fingerset anything spike-able, visually appealing or non rule violating themselves. Perhaps that's why they try to stretch interpretation to their standards.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

2 жыл бұрын

That's another aspect/viewpoint that I haven't heard in many years, but I will probably agree with you here. The one time I spent some time with some referees, one of them knew roughly how to set, the rest were basically as skillful as a random person taken in from the street... Probably salaries would have to be raised for this role as well if a change was wanted.

I think the FIVB is on the right track. Go back to setting interpretation from the 1990s. Here is the reason: Nobody wants to watch very tall players with average skills succeed mostly because of their height. If such less skilled tall players are forced, by virtue of their lack of hand setting skill, to bump set, they will be less valuable to their team. This could cause less tall players who have the skill to hand set well to be able to stay in the game. Each defender then would decide between on a poor setting very tall player who generates points from their block, vs. good setting less tall players who do not generate points from the block.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

I think I agree with you here, with a little "but", which is, what are the FIVB actually moving towards? If they are removing the liftiest sets but still allowing beach setting that moves in only one direction amd stay strict on doubles (my hope and what it seems like from the tournaments I have seen), then I agree with you. If the FIVB on the other hand is moving to indoor setting rules, super quick touch required and doubles don't really matter.. Then I don't really know what I think. Or actually, I think in this case bumpsetting has both better accuracy as well as "connection factor" with the hitter (it is quite easy to show your setting intention with your body language while bumpsetting), making it a superior technique in almost all ways in a windy and unpredictable environment. Play long enough under these rules and my guess is actually that bumpsetting would become more common. Probably would have to explain myself for a while before that would make sense for everybody why I think that, but in the end I think that making beach handsetting rule interpretations the same as indoors would be a big mistake. Clearing out the worst lifts that have passed through in the last few years is a good thing I'd say.

@larrydunn4626

Жыл бұрын

@@LearnBeachVolleyballFast here is a thought: if everyone had to bump set, my prediction is the good hand setters will also be better bump setters, so the setting skill will still be valued. Sarah Sponcil puts up reallly good bump sets on the very few occasions she cannot get under a hand set., and IMO she is the best setter out there, male or female.... she takes advantage of the current lax rules. But she also was a great indoor setter so she can adapt to whatever the interpretation becomes.

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

@@larrydunn4626 Hmm yes, interesting! Haven't thought too much about that, if good handsetters are usually good bumpsetters also.. There are definitely similarities between them. But I can also think of a few people that handset well but actually dislike bumpsetting.. Which could or could not mean that would be bad bumpsetters if they got forced to do so all the time. I dunno, I'n my opinion it would be a shame to make the rules so strict that it wouldn't really make sense to use the hands anymore. I hope soon I can just forget about this hickup of confusion in beach volleyball handsetting rule history and continue doing and teaching what should be done, quick but still beachy handsets that are not doubled..!

poorly written rule the ball has to come to the stop to change directions that's physics

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

You have a point..! 😅

@leelandutube

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! the setting rules have always struck me as technically impossible to adhere to from a physicist's point of view, so we treat it as an 'aspiration' rather than a hard rule

Hard video to watch far better if you just got right to teaching the new rules and less Mr Happy Personality

@LearnBeachVolleyballFast

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the feedback! The intent with this exact video was not really to teach the rules, but more that I hoped it would reach some FIVB officials or other decisionmakers with both sound arguments against what they were possibly doing, as well as a request for clarification about what they have actually decided! So I wasn't even able to teach the new rules since I didn't quite know them, probably almost nobody did at the date I made this video. But I understand how the video title could lead one to think it is a video that will teach the rules now at this point, a couple of weeks after.