FAQ: Why don't gliders have an artificial horizon (AH)? most gliders don't have an artificial horizon for many reasons: - Although gliders often fly near cloud, we rarely fly IN cloud. So we just don't need them. - A traditional mechanical AH requires a lot of power top power up a gyroscope. - Some countries it's not legal to cloud fly. - AH cost a lot. For a two seat glider, you'd need two of them, doubling the cost. - To use an AH you need training, which most people don't have. - Saying all that, some gliders do have them installed, and some countries it is legal to cloud fly. Would it have helped in this case? Maybe, as once in cloud it's the only way to know which way is up. But it wouldn't have stopped the situation, which was the glider was sucked down in the sinking air on the lee of the mountain range, due to lack of situational awareness...

@michaelsuede

Ай бұрын

I mean ANYTHING would be better than nothing. You can get an AH on an iPad, which is at least something. I wouldn't try to land a plane with it, but it would at least give you some idea of where your nose is pointed. I wouldn't fly in anything that didn't at least have a digital battery powered AH as a backup. While it's true you need training to get rated, any pilot who values his life should at least teach himself how to use one in Microsoft Flight Simulator.

@HughBond-kx7ly

Ай бұрын

Even a stupid hang glider pilot such as me knows to avoid flying on the Lee side of f a hill or range.

@Catpanl

16 күн бұрын

@@HughBond-kx7lyeveryone knows it. This is just a good example how competent people make bad decisions and get disoriented. CFIT is a common occurrence for seasoned pilots. That’s why this is a good teaching tool. They aren’t dumb. It’s just that we are all human and can’t rely on our sensory inputs.

Cumulogranite: clouds full of rocks. To be avoided by all aircraft without radar.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Indeed!

@ComandanteJ

3 жыл бұрын

Would something like the Garmin synthetic vision help here?

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@ComandanteJ It would, but that's not the sort of equipment we put in gliders. Although some gliding gear (Like the LX9000) does have the same thing... but it costs a lot, so most club gliders do not have that sort of thing!

@OkammakO

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide It always surprises me why more folks dont fly with a small ipad or iphone running foreflight in sailplanes. It's cheap, can take ADSB in (for traffic alerts), and is a fantastic 'shit just hit the fan' backup.

@markburton5170

3 жыл бұрын

@@OkammakO Surely a key factor in this situation was that the instructor was running a gliding equivalent of Foreflight on a mobile device and was distracted by it at a very key moment.

"We're in trouble, mate" must be the worst thing to hear from your instructor...

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Yip!

It doesn't even have a fuel indicator, dangerous.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

LOL

@folkenvanvanel6611

3 жыл бұрын

Nothing that can catch fire Nothing that can suddenly stop working and you know what you are in for from the beginning.

@peterbustin2683

3 жыл бұрын

How do you check the oil ?

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@peterbustin2683 there is a dipstick in the front

@peterbustin2683

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide Really ?! Thanks for letting me know.

That was truly frightening. When I became a glider instructor, my instructor told me my number one job was to make sure the student didn't kill us both. Your analysis of how this situation developed is spot on. Here in the US, cloud clearance requirements are large and unfortunately are often violated by glider pilots. I suspect that happens elsewhere as well. Your channel is great!

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Excellent video! I will share it on my channels!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Petter!

@j0hnnykn0xv1lle

3 жыл бұрын

Zee Germans sind eine eins!

@GaryLaaks1

Жыл бұрын

Good to see you on this channel Mentor Pilot. Love your channel too.

First of all, a big thank you to the pilots for sharing this. There are many who would cover this up. The blaming even here illustrates why many will say: "Let's not mention this to anybody". Many clubs would be tempted to impose strong sanctions against the pilots. That subtle little turn left wasn't caught in time by the instructor and the reported 40 kt crosswind did the rest. It's an excellent lesson in how quickly an apparently minor move can go seriously wrong.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, exactly right!

@DirtFlyer

2 ай бұрын

I would argue that no move of the controls, or aircraft position, is minor when you are ridge soaring, especially when ridge soaring right next to IMC in 40 knot winds. This isn't my type of flying, but damn does it look risky.

I mean lets be real... they are playing with their lives in that much cloud with 0 instruments to help should they lose the horizon. I would never do this....way too easy to get into cloud without even an attitude indicator you are done.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yip always stay well clear of cloud, and the lee of ridges

They took the wrong exit off the highway and ended up in a real bad neighborhood.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

They sure did!

@torkdork69

3 жыл бұрын

This had me cracking up. Not to make light of this situation but a chuckle for sure.

Hell, that all started to fall apart REALLY quickly! Good to know that everyone was OK. This type of level-headed reflection on a near-disaster is key to improving safety for all.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that's what I found amazing is how quick it all happened

Thanks for version 2 of this video, and the added information. I want to thank the pilots involved in this incident in allowing the share of their experience. They drew a lot of criticism, some unwarranted and exaggregated, but I think they save 1 or 2 lives for sure.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, I agree. Thanks for your kind words.

@13699111

Жыл бұрын

I agree with your comment the pilots have my respect

I actually had an awfully lot of anxiety watching this. Probably the only reason I don't have my license. So glad things worked out for them but it doesn't get much tighter than this! Thanks for sharing, wow just wow!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

If it helps this is a very rare occurrence of multiple things contributing. I’ve never experienced anything like it in my 15 years of flying.

What a great analysis of how a near disaster can sneak up on a fun day out. My thanks also to the pilots involved for allowing us all to learn from from their experience. So pleased to hear that they are both back flying.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Colin!

With due respect, the key from this lesson is that "INSTRUCTORS ARE HUMAN TOO", if you are a pilot, don't be afraid to speak up when you feel something's not right. Well done for the Student pilot for saving both lives and well done to Instructor to recognizing his mistake and allowing Student pilot to take over control.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah that is a good lesson- just one of many from this flight!

@palbi

2 жыл бұрын

I may have misinterpreted, but it seemed to me that the student thought they were stalling and nearly killed them by going nose down. The younger voice in the front said "spin spin nose down" when they were not spinning or stalling. They then nearly flew right into the ridge.

@inquest777

Жыл бұрын

@@palbi I saw it as he recognised the low airspeed and was warning they were stalling about to enter a spin, hence he then said nose down repeatedly, then took control.

I am studying to be a glider pilot and my instructor always demonstrates clearly and safely what will happen if you lose your attention. For a moment of carelessness, you can pay with your life. Cool videos and explanations, learn better from other people's mistakes, you are doing a great job.

@PureGlide

11 ай бұрын

Thank you, yes this is the best example of that!

That is about the most visceral way possible to learn the meaning of “lee side”. Your clear explanation stopping at perfect moments to note the instruments and what that meant about where they were in relation to the ridge was as near perfect as i could imagine. It should allow a-lot of people to understand the lee side while only needing to pucker vicariously. I thought that when the camera flew off they had actually stopped in the trees the first time i saw this.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Yes a number of people thought the camera falling over, which made a thunk noise, also was them hitting the trees... not so though, just the camera making a noise.

This is the 3rd and by far the best explanation and commentary on this incident (the others being Blancolirio and Mentor Pilot, both powered pilots). Thanks.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

This scared the bejeezus out of me just watching it. It's interesting when looking at BGA accident statistics to see how many times "instructor failed to take over in time" is writ large among the contributing factors. Not wishing to deride the instructor in this case because Im sure we've all taken our eye off the ball at times but it looks like a classic example. It is always a fine balance between allowing a "learning experience" and asserting authority but close up against a ridge line covered in orographic cloud is not the place to indecisive, especially when the student is a novice on ridge flying. To state the bleeding obvious, that flight could so easily have been just another statistic!! Thanks for the analysis, Tim. I'm so glad the two pilots were safe, albeit more by luck than judgement, and that they 'got back in the saddle', so to speak. Remember, "Bloggs is always out to kill you and the more advanced Bloggs is, the more devious he/she is in the methods of trying to kill you"! :- Dave Bullock, Senior BGA Instructor Examiner. That comment stuck with me to good effect, all the years I was instructing.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it's a great reminder for all instructors and pilots about the dangers of distractions and flying near cloud

@Farweasel

3 жыл бұрын

In this instance the Instructor was spot on right. Took control to miss the ridge as they broke out of cloud. Suppressed his instict to keep control once in the valley on the reverse of the slope, allowing the student with the better view to fly the glider. Sure they should not have drifted over the ridge in the first place - 'tho in fairness you can see how even an experienced power pilot could get suckered in. The question in my mind is what was their best option before going over the back of the ridge. OK he should have kept to the right of the ridge and out of cloud of course but .... He needed another 200 feet to get home - How best would he get that from where he was? Turn out into wind and back along the ridge? Or just land out on the into wind side of the ridge?

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@Farweasel They were climbing happily on the front of the ridge, all they had to do to keep climbing is not allow the glider to drift backwards over to the wrong side.

@carljacobs1287

3 жыл бұрын

@@Farweasel Generally, "need another 200 feet" generally means to arrive at circuit height. So they could have landed with a modified circuit even if they had gained no height whatsoever. I'm guessing their circuit height was set for 1000 feet (same as Australia). Competition arrival is a bit different, you set to arrive at 500 feet (however at high speed). The speed is then converted back into height once crossing the finish line to give around 1000 feet for the circuit. Although in competitions many gliders may be arriving close together, making for a lot of modified circuits. (But for gliders, ha ha, this is all part of a normal days gliding).

@Farweasel

3 жыл бұрын

@@carljacobs1287 'And this is normal' Sticking with Microlights is suddenly sounding a lot less lethal. Thanks Carl

That was a hell of an experience for the pilots and certainly a thrilling experience for me as a viewer. I have no experience in flying a glider but as a private helicopter pilot with a NZ license I know that where they were is not where I ever want to be. It looks as if they were so focused on getting lift over the ridge that they forgot to fly safely. My first reaction was: "Why are they going for the cloudy side of their flight? As a viewer I wondered why the instructor did not stop it and escape to the right. So glad they survived and that their video will help others to do better.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Norbert, yeah it’s tricky as we do often fly on ridges often with orographic cloud around, above or under us. In this case the instructor being distracted for just 30 seconds lead to the whole thing.

Excellent review. My take on this with limited gliding and powered flying is that the aircraft was in trouble from the first second of the video. They were not equipped with an artificial horizon so should not have been anywhere near, and certainly not above, the cloud.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly right! Although I’d say the AH is not as important as most people think, the real problem is getting caught on the wrong side of the ridge. Sure an AH would help in that situation, but they shouldn’t be getting in it in the first place

my flight instructor also showed me this video I think it's so great that you can learn so easily from other people's mistakes these days

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Glad it was useful! Cheers

An interesting detailed analysis. I do not know what New Zealand’s cloud clearance requirements are, but in the US these pilots flew for an extended period in violation of those rules passing numerous opportunities to get clear of the clouds and terrain. I imagine the NZ rules are very similar.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Paul, yes similar rules, the NZ cloud flying rules poster is in the description! I might do a separate video on them sometime soon.

@interfrastically

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide I note that in uncontrolled airspace the clearance when below 3000MSL or 1000AGL (whichever is higher) is "Clear Of Cloud" Well, they certainly broke that by entering cloud but would those two altitude qualifiers (and Class G airspace) have been in play earlier and so only requiring "Clear Of Cloud" instead of the more stringent separation minimums elsewhere on the chart? It wasn't the distance between them and the clouds that had me terrified so early in the video it was more the fact that there was a ridge and clouds on their left and ahead of them there were big solid clouds to their right that obviously had the potential to trap them, even without drifting into the lee of the ridge.

Obviously the camera angle doesn't necessarily show us everything but I am a bit surprised the pilot/student decided to veer left when the clouds were clearly occluding the ridge/terrain. I guess it is one of those situations where the student feels 'safer' because he/she assumes the instructor is a safety net & would have intervened but he/she should not forget that they had the controls. Glad they got to land safely, learn their lesson and put it to good use in their subsequent flights.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly right, when you have an instructor in the back seat it’s easy to assume they won’t let anything go wrong, but in this case he was distracted briefly.

@ZhangyXD

2 жыл бұрын

Left is airport, right is nowhere bro

Scary stuff, and a good lesson to learn. Also important to note is that moist air forced up by the mountain can turn into cloud in seconds. Once, while Paragliding in front of a 1300m high mountain, I went from unlimited visibility to zero visibility in a matter of seconds, when a cloud formed right around me!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly, this is a great lesson how easily it can happen.

This was excellent and all credit to the student and instructor for posting the original video.

@TheSoaringChannel

3 жыл бұрын

Well... They didn't unfortunately. They had the film stolen. (Not by Pure Glide BTW)

@soaruk3697

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSoaringChannel Yes posted illicitly - those that used and distributed it should hang their heads in shame, no moral fibre.

@TheSoaringChannel

3 жыл бұрын

@@soaruk3697 yeah I agree. Except obviously those who shared this with the intentions of helping show how easy it is to go wrong if you're not in the cockpit 100%.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Well they did help with this analysis, so that's much appreciated.

@soaruk3697

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSoaringChannel Once known to be illicitly posted it should have been removed, lots of sites did not do this, despite requests to do so, nor did Yoyube when approached.. I have seen it with another video of a gliding accident illicitly posted - and despite direct requests from the pilot and his family people refused to do so, like they had a right to use it. Actions like that will only serve to reduce safety for the reasons I stated above - too many people lacking moral fibre, thinking of their own petty short term interests, and not the longer term ones for aviation in general.

Lee side rotors are nasty. And they can be deadly if one loses visibility like in this case. Lots of wrong decisions prior to that and I am really glad pilots managed to get out of this alive. Lessons learned indeed. Thanks for commenting and posting this very educational content, Tim.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah lots of lessons, I think it'll make a lot of people flying near cloud treat it with more respect.

Woah a great example for as a pilot you always need to keep situation awareness otherwise you get your close call if you're lucky, or you die. Watching this gives anxiety for a good reason, gee. That one was so close I couldn't imagine it any closer for a happy end. I'm glad they are back in the air! Yep you need some reinforced steel ropes as nerves and some pair of brass to keep your stuff together in a situation like this and to be able to survive. Piloting is all about awareness and a sharpened mind. Even a bit of fatigue might get you into your grave pretty quickly. Thanks for sharing, thanks for the analysis - I'm sure this video will save lives!

Still makes the hairs on my neck stand up seeing this again.

Great advice. I have been sucked up in the clouds in a hang glider in 1975 while ridge flying. I was lucky to make it out alive. Moved to sailplanes and loved it.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Cheers!

One extra tip - keep your phone charged up to avoid having to work with a less capable/less familiar backup device (that PDA this video mentioned)

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed, it's not easy to make sure all batteries are in tip top condition on every flight!

Thanks so much for your in depth analysis and the permission of the pilots to do so. As a low hour pilot I have learned a number of lessons from this. Keep up the great videos. Just received my t-shirts btw……very happy with the quality. Thx.

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Hey thanks for the feedback on the video, glad you think it was useful! And great to hear you like the shirts :)

Glad to hear they're both flying again... with each other I wonder.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes they have!

Please keep content coming! My first year of gliding was last year, this year I will be working towards my solo. Just got all my simulator equipment to practice at home. Thankyou for the effort and amazing insight.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Will do! Thanks for watching

Flying gliders mostly in flatland, this is a reminder of the dangers when clouds and mountains mix. Not blaming the pilots, but feel there are taking quite some risks, also flying kn between clouds in the beginning. A reminder that flying is not inherently dangerous, but very unforgiving. So happy they walked away. Phew it's difficult to watch.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes agreed. Thanks for commenting

@devintariel3769

2 жыл бұрын

Being from California, our main export is flatland.

Blimey! When the dip below the clouds need arose to reacquire situational awareness, and the airspeed rocketed up, it made me nervous. Tremendous the pilots were willing to share this for all to learn from. Will share this on my channel too. Love your videos and getting to see the NZ landscape. As an ex-pat, I don't know when I'll be next down to see the whanau, so your channel is a bonus.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Hey thanks much appreciated!

On my first solo qualifying flight at RAF Locking I flew straight off the winch and into cloud. Muscle memory got me to fly into the downwind leg whereupon I hit VFR again about half way. Made the rest of the circuit ok only to land and have the CFI send me off twice more to quailify. I have often debated with myself as to the right and wrong of this but he had far more faith in my capabilities than I had; I think it was a case of "Get back on the horse".That was about 50 years ago but I can still remember the experience. Taught me to stay the hell away from low cloud :-D

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Wow did you have any cloud flying instruments? A turn and bank for example?

@ChrisMower

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide The glider was a Slingsby T21, better known as The Barge, so just very basic stuff. For the younger members of your audience here is a picture of the T21 www.wikiwand.com/en/Slingsby_T.21 Most people coudn't wait to qualify so they could graduate to the sexier gliders like the Oly or Bocian but I loved the Barge. The open cockpit gave such a feeling of freedom, and on a hot day there was not quite the awful stink of pee that you got with the closed cockpit! (Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about) :-D Also to clear something up my QFI hadn't realised that I had gone into IFR, just that I had passed behind a bank of low cloud that had been hanging around most of the morning. When he saw me on the downwind he thought all was well, if slightly dodgy. It wasn't until the de-brief that the full horror hit him poor sausage!

@johnnunn8688

2 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisMower, 🤣😂👍

Thanks so much for this summary and lessons to be learned !

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Oh my. Thanks for sharing and bery good analysis. Lesson learned. Hope you don't mind sharing this video during recurrent training. Really good job!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Please do! I just ask you don't re-upload it to the internet, but feel free to link and share to this original video all you want!

@pawelgora2567

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide WILCO and thx again!

10/10 mate, thanks for posting!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers mate!

Thanks for the narrative. Nice job!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers, and thanks for watching!

Craziest suction cup phone mount ad I've ever seen: that thing STICKS :P

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

They should!

@gwenevere501

3 жыл бұрын

That’s actually a modified GoPro suction mount if you wanted to know! It has a phone mount screwed into it

@ganthrithor

3 жыл бұрын

@@gwenevere501 :D

@folkenvanvanel6611

3 жыл бұрын

at 8.5G...hats of to that.

Thank you for making these videos!

@PureGlide

Ай бұрын

Thank you for watching them!

Thank you for sharing. Brings back some real memories. 👍🏼

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Eeek nothing quite like this I hope!

Excellent analysis !!! Thanks !

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Just watched this video after watching the Mentour pilot walk through and I just wanted to say well done to both the student and the instructor for getting out of such a scary situation in the way they did. Many years ago when I was a teenage student enjoying glider training I had a near miss with a helicopter flying low out of trees across my winch line on take off when I was at about 100ft and know how quickly you have to react! It was a long walk back!! Truely hope that the student has carried on flying after this and well done to the instructor for not trying to take control when things went pear shaped. Mistakes made should always be a learning tool and thank you for sharing.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Hi thanks for sharing. Yes both pilots have continued flying, obviously this had a big impact on both of them. Cheers!

@happygillmor

2 жыл бұрын

It was just pure luck, nothing else. You can't fly in clouds without proper instruments. You need at least Turn and slip indicator, otherwise you have absolutely no idea in what position your are flying, There's a big risk you brake the plane inside the cloud as well. Simple rule: If you get totally lost in the cloud, pull the brakes release the stick and hope you have enough altitude when you go below the cloud base.

Great video , great lesson for pilots! Thanks!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

And a great lesson for us all!

lesson number 6. Bring a clean pair of underwear on each flight.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Haha yes definitely a time to have a spare pair handy

@pianoman78

3 жыл бұрын

Underware - underwear for cyborgs ;)

@propbraker

3 жыл бұрын

Or brown pants?

Great video, boy oh boy, how they didnt get killed is incredible!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes very lucky

@Axagoras

3 жыл бұрын

I think the student put them in excessive danger with poor airmanship. Not to be rude, but they: 1. Failed to remain clear of clouds. 2. Turned into the ridge upon clearing bottom of cloud. 3. Returned to clouds. 4. Dive of death V2. 5. Spin Spin Spin!!! What is he talking about? They were not spinning or stalling, he just almost caused ANOTHER crash. 6. I HAVE CONTROLS

@vhollund

3 жыл бұрын

@@Axagoras The world almost lost 2 morons

@jlarsson1978

3 жыл бұрын

No need to give them hate. I'm sure they know they screwed up bigtime. Very brave to share the video for others to learn from their mistake.

@billpennock8585

3 жыл бұрын

@P.Albi and @vhollund. Good thing there are people like yourselves who never mess up.

Thank you great video great narration, my heart was in my mouth god knows what it must have been like at the controls, just shows how quickly something can go wrong

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, yes scary how fast it went wrong. A good reminder to us all who fly.

Thank you for this instructional video. It will be useful to many aircraft pilots

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Bloody Hell. Watching this again after the first video you had on it & this still scares the crap out of me. Fantastic review though Tim. Balcolirio & Mentour Pilot also did reaction videos to this & maybe other channels. Not sure about the permissions though. You were te first channel I follow to cover it. Thanks for sharing, big lessons learned for sure!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Leo, yes this is the first and only version of the video that has been approved to be released by the pilots. Unfortunately once it was on the internet there’s no stopping it!

@michaelderflinger5002

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide Why was your 1st video taken down (and all the comments with it)? I didn't watch it fully first time, wanted it to share your insights with my club next day and it was gone :/ Thx for the reupload 👍

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaelderflinger5002 Hi sorry about that. I was asked to remove it by the pilots and their club, and then we worked on this more complete version.

@michaelderflinger5002

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide Well thanks again - watching right now and writing a mail to the club members to do the same. i am really looking forward to what you have to say about the very rough g-meter and high max g value. I hope the two pilots (can) continue flying anyway.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaelderflinger5002 I didn’t say in the video but I believe it peaked about 10g, but it was likely very briefly. Thus the need for the checks. Those g meters just need a bumpy landing to set a high reading like that, they are not ideal.

When first watching the clip of the video posted before, I was scared when the last view of the ground vanished at the right side, the glider still heading right into the clouds without seeing the ground any more. Though I would have thought it wise to turn at least 90 degrees to the right much earlier, this was the last moment it was possible to do relatively safely. Entering between the cloud banks without ground view, relatively low over a ridge made me feel sick. I am very glad the pilots survived this potentially lethal situation unharmed. The video shows 2 things quite clearly: 1. how fast you loose control in clouds 2. how dangerous such a situation can be. Thanks for the analysis.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly right. Of course it's easy to see the mistake and solution in hindsight!

Thank you and the pilots involved (specially the instructor) for sharing, very glad there was a happy ending. I instruct in the French Alps so can totally relate to the rapidly developing situation. I very quickly learned that the margins when instructing in the mountains or in wave are very very small indeed, even when flying with experienced students and even when away from the ridge or cloud. One thing i would say is that once the instructor took control he should have kept control until landing in my opinion. The conditions were clearly very difficult and no longer appropriate for training. We are lucky in the UK to be allowed to fly in cloud and it is a skill i always keep up to date, including practicing limited panel.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your comments

Also a motor and a prop would be nice too

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

It wouldn’t help in this situation. My motor generates 2 knots of lift. They were in 10 knots down.

This is a very frightening video, but nevertheless it is a very good example how a little inattention or rather incorrect assessment of the situation can have life-threatening consequences.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, thanks for taking the time to comment.

Great video. Big respect to the pilots on sharing this cautionary incident

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Kudos to the pilots for sharing this. And also kudos to them both for managing to get out of it. Sure the lapse in judgement could have been avoided on both parts. But crap happens, nobody is perfect. And they cooly recovered and held it together and got down safe, which is most important. And didn’t damage the glider 😅😅

@jonathanpersson1205

Жыл бұрын

They didnt share the original video it was released on the internet in a breach of trust by someone who was sent the video to help determine the seriousness of the high G loading that occurred in this flight. Obviously they cooperated with this commentary of the flight though.

@soulslaveone

7 ай бұрын

Well, I wouldnt say they kept their cool. They were borderline panicking. Both of them.

I really like your way of analyzing what happened. I'm a gliding flight instructor and flight examiner and will certainly be sharing this video with my students. For what it's worth, flying inside cloud (and especially coming out of a tall towering cumulus at high altitude) is one of the essential appeals of soaring for myself. However, here in Finland we do it while thermalling over flat ground and usually with at least 3000 ft of cloud base. Obviously the licensing and operation rules for IMC flying are followed and we have good procedures for radio traffic, and most importantly we're running the required instrumentation and train how to fly on instruments. Even if my pilot license, aircraft equipment and local rules allowed me to fly within or close to cloud, I would never dare to chase lift near a cloud that actually contains the ridge inside, i.e. cloud base is below the ridge top. However, using the skill and instruments for IMC flying, the video's situation would have been salvageable even from within the cloud. Just turn headwind for level flight and watch the speed. But as we see, without the instruments and skill, it's impossible for even the most experienced pilots. Thanks again for the superb analysis and presentation that's a pleasure to watch.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Hi thanks for your comments, good to hear you guys do training for cloud flying. We have similar rules in New Zealand, although very few training gliders have the instruments. And yes I think everyone agrees, including the pilots, that cloud flying next to a ridge is a bad idea :)

@hamedsarb

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Lauri, I fly in south Germany but lived and studied in Tampere and Espoo. I was always interested in the thermal conditions in flat Finnland. Do you get often Cumulis in Finnland where the terrain is mostly lake and Forest? My understanding is flat, wett terrain is very unprobable to release air bubbles.

Just when I thought he'll turn right - you stopped and said watch this next ....he turned left ....( actually was pushed by wind )..... boy was i sweating just watching this expecting accident . Thanks God they pulled it of.....( this time ) .....

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah very lucky it worked out ok this time

That is so scary. They are very lucky to be alive.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Yeah sure are

They had a guardian angel! Thanks guys for sharing this video. Take care!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

They sure did!

@Catpanl

16 күн бұрын

They put themselves into that situation and got themselves out. A little bit of skill and a little bit of luck. No magical beings need it.

wow that made me feel sick watching that. i have never experienced that while watching a video. im glad to hear these guys are ok. wow what a ride.

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I felt the same when I first saw it! And even watching it later...

great breakdown and that raised my adrenaline sharply

What a scary situation! I am glad everyone is okay.

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers! Yeah they are both flying again since

THAT was a ring tightener! Glad they’re OK. Just starting back out after 30 odd years on the ground and I’m finding these videos very educational. You never forget though, I found myself yelling “turn right, turn right” when you still could see clear air to the right. WOW

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Hey glad you like the videos! Cheers

As a model airplane pilot who aspires to fly full scale aircraft, this was helpful to understanding what things a pilot has to keep in mind. Also, I have a model glider, but mine has a motor. That would have been useful to avoid those clouds.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

A motor won't help even a small plane if you are in the lee of a ridge in 40 knot winds, the air is going down at 15 knots...

@aerospacematt9147

3 жыл бұрын

I have great respect for pilots who dare fly in those conditions. I would be too nervous to fly in 40 knot winds! Of course, that’s coming from an amateur RC pilot, but still...

Thanks for the analysis Tim. I to first saw this on Blanco's and Mentour Pilots channel, hence ended subscribing to your channel when Peter mentioned you. Not a Pilot myself but I must ask, are gliders not fitted with gyro's? I would have thought it an essential instrument to be able to gauge the attitude of the glider especially in this scenario with cloud whiteout. The call of 'spin, spin' is a little confusing given we don't know the attitude of the glider. I would have thought they may have been spiralling down, not spinning. Brings back memories of skiing in a whiteout and the weird sensation of not knowing if you're going down or traversing a slope.....and that possibility that you may just ski off a ledge....or hit something.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Hi no most gliders don't have gyros, partly due to the battery requirements, expense and primarily because most gliders only fly VFR. I've been flying 15 years and never been caught out by cloud. Saying that some do have them for those that want to cloud fly legally.

@interfrastically

3 жыл бұрын

There are also very few places where cloud flying is still allowed in gliders - either expressly forbidden or rendered effectively impossible by secondary effects of rules and regulations. You'll almost never see any gyro instruments in gliders in the US or Canada for example. With no instrument training and no instruments in my glider (combined with me flying in the mountains) I figure if I ever screw up badly enough to end up in the clouds the best thing to do would be to bail out.

Good video. As you say, the instructor was almost certainly fatigued. You did not talk about what instruction had been given before we reached this stage. If I was giving a ridge flying lesson, I should already have explained the dangers of getting downwind of the ridge, therefore the need to crab into wind, and absolutely essentially always to have a clear path into wind and out into the valley. With cloud building rapidly, I would hope to have briefed that we must remain upwind of cloud even at the expense of lift strength. I would not want to risk being downwind of any part of the cloud and would certainly have expected to be on full alert while playing with the cloud. I was very surprised the instructor did not take over as soon as things had gone wrong (no clear view out into the valley, then out of the lift). He would probably have controlled the speed better, and even without an artificial horizon with his moving map gps it might have been possible to point into wind (I have never flown a glider in cloud without an artificial horizon (I have an LX9000 in my glider and am rated to cloud fly).

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mark, great points, cheers

@markburton5170

3 жыл бұрын

Great that it ended well, and all credit to them for allowing others to learn from their mistake.

As a fixed wing aeroplane pilot I felt uncomfortable the moment those clouds started to close in around the aircraft..particularly as it’s not equipped for flying in IMC ..I’m surprised that the student with 50hrs of power flying didn’t feel that something was wrong ..I recall inadvertent flight into IMC was a subject hammered as a student pilot. Having said that it’s easy to criticise in hindsight..sometimes things just overtake us ..the video is a great learning point for all pilots.

This brought back some memories and a cold sweat. I have a similar story. In fact its exactly the same accept I don't remember there being any clouds, I had soloed and I was soloing at the time and I did make it back to the grass strip. There was ridge involved (the wrong side). I had flown ridge with my instructors before. This was back in the day in WA when Issaquah had a club before it was developed like it is now. It was beautiful. I think I was 15. It was probably my third solo. I told the tow to take me to Tiger Mountain, where I had planned to fly ridge. Well, I immediately botched it and found myself on the wrong side dropping (which I could clearly see). I immediately went to best LOD and headed out and around. I knew I was in a bad position. Once around I flew straight back (passing over some entertained hang gliders getting ready to sail on the CORRECT side of the mountain), my knot meter GLUED to to best LOD. There was no pattern to speak of. I was F*****ing terrified. There was no way I was prepared (short on fortitude and experience) to land anywhere but on the runway (we typically turned on final over a Wendy's). I parked the glider (a yellow Shwitczer 2-33) properly at the end of the runway. As I walked away I passed my instructor and he dropped on me the classic "Cheated Death Again?", but when he saw my face the conversation ended there. My friend did write a song about it. I did solo again. My takeaway from my scare was that I needed a lot more instructing!

Omg, this is scary.. My feelings where to get out of the clouds asap and turn right. Luckily this went well for them!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes very lucky

Good god the fact that there was some visibility just before they hit the ground was so lucky, they could have smashed right into the ground without seeing it coming. Incredibly scary going from fine to bad so quickly

An animated reconstruction of this without cloud would be incredibly useful. Its scary to think you could be blown back over the ridge without being aware. Great saves from both as an instructor im not sure i could allow a student "screaming i have control" to carry on but them both fighting the stick would have doomed them im sure great trust from both and some facinating insights

Thanks for the explanation, had no idea what I was looking at in the original video being a land-lubber

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Glad I could help!

As soon as they lost sight of the ridge they should have abandoned their goal. I can't believe they had the nerves to do this. That flight was one big gamble. and what about other traffic? no way to see it coming. Respect for the pilots to post this video.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

What goal do you think they should abandon? Getting enough height to get home? They were about to turn around and head back. Traffic not an issue, only gliders fly that close to ridges and they would have know exactly what gliders were flying from the field. This was late in the day so they were probably last. Cheers!

Very well summarized and analyzed, thank you for sharing this video! What I noticed is that a second variometer can be heard (17:50). I use XC Soar from time to time, the acoustic vario of this app sounds exactly the same. If the flight instructor used XC Soar, he could have seen that they are being moved over the edge of the ridge, even if a cell phone is not proper instrumentation for a cloud flight in IMC. Thank God everything went well!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't think about it being a second variometer. I suspect it was the Cambridge, but with a big dead band, or it was set to speed to fly mode.

I’m surprised the instructor didn’t take control as soon as the were in sink and cloud with the ridge out of sight.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

I think he did, and the student took control at the end which was remarkably level headed

My first time seeing a student who takes the control from the flight instructor in a dangerous situation so they don’t crash. Usually it’s the other way around. Thank you for analyzing the video 👍🏼

Scary! So pleased they survived. I couldn't see it mentioned that the green flashing light is the ballast indicator light on this DG1000S glider. Each flash indicates one unit of tail ballast (up to 10 can be carried). The pilots must ensure the glider is correctly ballasted for their weight before takeoff. This is usually done by visual inspection of the ballast weights, but the DG1000s also has this indicator light. After checking, the front seat pilot normally presses the light prior to takeoff to extinguish the light. It has nothing to do with the cause of the incident.

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Cheers

I'm just glad that there are ethical people like you here, that removed the initial video once it was known it was illicitly posted. It is absolutely shameful and totally disrespectful to the pilots involved that others in the gliding and wider aviation community did not remove the video. Their actions could result in reduced safety and learning opportunities , as pilots will be fearful of releasing videos in future, in case they also get illicitly posted to the internet, for what are basically 'rubberneckers' to make ill-informed comments without knowing the full facts. It is great to see you have now got the permission to release, with updated comments and information, and which can now be used as a far more effective learning tool.

@TheSoaringChannel

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed and good points!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

It really is one of the best learning videos ever created!

Great analysis. Amazing that a pilot with that amount of power flying would not be terrified of getting anywhere near cloud without at least a turn and bank. Part of the problem when the ground appears is it's likely a sloping hillside, and you'll be tempted to align your wings with the slope assuming it's level ground. Pretty nice of them to post the incident. You can now buy a little cube the size of your thumbnail with a complete 3 axis AHARS acceleration/attitude/compass sensor system off Amazon, powered with an internal USB rechargeable battery and connecting to your phone with bluetooth. Tape the module to a flat spot in the glider. With the appropriate PFD app on your phone, you have enough to get you out of trouble if you blunder into cloud.

@jamesfranko5098

10 күн бұрын

Why isnt attitude etc one of the dials? Who designs this shit?

@JK-rv9tp

10 күн бұрын

@@jamesfranko5098 There are battery operated attitude indicators, but they're pricey, use a lot battery capacity, and normally they really aren't necessary for a competent pilot who knows enough to stay well clear of clouds no matter what.

A friend of mine showed me today this video and I couldn't believe how someone can end up in that situation going inside the clouds over a ridge... Thanks for this explaination, made sense.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Hi thanks for commenting Bruno, glad this was useful. Cheers

Oh wow!Terrifying! I found myself exclaiming out loud when they turned left. They were definitely too close in to the cloud by quite a large margin, staying outside of the fingers of protruding cloud, even if it meant accepting less lift, would have been a million times safer.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah absolutely! Cheers

@ZhangyXD

2 жыл бұрын

Left is air strip, right is nowhere obviously. They flown the correct return route

It might be worth pointing out that different countries have different rules for gliders flying in cloud. In the UK glider pilots can get a cloud flying rating that allows them to fly in cloud. This rating is generally used to cloud climb in cumulus clouds at the top of a thermal when there is plenty of height to play with, or to descend through cloud if you have been caught out, when wave flying for example. It is certainly not equivalent to an IMC or instrument rating. I don't know this for certain, but I have the impression that less cloud flying is done in the UK these days, probably because most modern glass fibre gliders do not have speed limiting air brakes, so if you do lose control in cloud you are very likely to exceed VNE before you can recover. If you do decide to fly in cloud it is important to prepare yourself mentally, and be flying on your giros before you enter cloud. Even with training and suitable instruments, if you enter cloud unexpectedly in a modern GRP glider you are likely to lose control.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Great points, thanks!

@FunBitesTV

3 жыл бұрын

UK pilots would be screwed without cloud flying rating, as its almost always cloudy and pissing it down

That must have been the best high five of his life back on the ground! XD

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yip!

That the stundent came from powered flight was obvious, because he didn't use the pedals and didn't keep the string in the middle. For keeping the mind on top all day a nap in the best way, even as short as 10 minutes. Hydration is often avoided by gliding pilots, due to the lack of relief facilities in the airplane and on the site of take off.

Being able to see, having a safe route to land, even if that is an out-landing come way over the need to gain a couple of hundred feet. Plus surely the out-landing options near the airfield are good and known. Flying out away from the ridge gives them the option to assess an out-landing away from it and also assess returning to the ridge to gain the height needed for a glide back. Plus there may have been options for some lift on the way back. It was more than that one last turn. Staying not only out of clouds but a safe distance away also is a must, if only to give you the visibility to give you different options than the single one option they seemed intent on following. Thank you to the pilots for sharing. I know it can be easy to become complacent and be oblivious to potential danger. Understanding why rules are in place is just as important as knowing them. Can you bend the rules for flying near clouds? Perhaps if you’re thousands of feet above any possible ridge, but don’t bend them when you know there’s a ridge there.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers for your comments.

They lost the opportunity to turn away from cloud. They did have enough to do partial panel instrument flying but it's reasonable to expect they didn't know how. The great thing was they didn't try to dive 'through a hole'. The problem with doing that is the lowest area of cloud you can see in a 'hole' is usually well above the actual cloud base, so if you get into cloud then you'll be tempted to stay in the descent thinking you're almost at the base.

Why the student didn’t slip out down and right out into the valley is very surprising. Ultimately this was an unforced communication problem, Great examination of what happened as always. 👍😎🇬🇧

Thank You for Your excellent review and analysis of what happened! It may save lives. Also want to thank the pilots for allowing this to be published, that takes guts, hope the NZ authorities think likewise... I noticed that their glider had no turn indicator gyro. All gliders I have flown here in Sweden have been so equipped. Will try to get a glider instrument rating next summer if possible. Cloud flying with gliders is legal here but restricted to certain areas. It is also a safety factor when flying in wave conditions, we had a fatal accident at the Kiruna wave camp a few Years ago.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes i think it’s unlikely the CAA will reprimand the pilots in any way, more likely a safety bulletin will be issued and suggestion of training or similar. and yes I agree, long term making this video public should save lives. Thanks for your comments.

How is it "accidental"? If you don't have required separation from cloud, isn't that already IMC? Lesson3: if you have a risk of flying into IMC, even if not planning to, have the right instruments and training.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes true, and I agree having the right instruments and training for cloud flying should be more common.

@_John_P

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide Would an engine have helped in this situation? Turning it on or popping it out, and gaining altitude, so they could clear the clouds and veer right, out of trouble?

@chaoz1666

3 жыл бұрын

@@_John_P without knowing which way is up, it might have just accellerated their dive

@_John_P

3 жыл бұрын

@@chaoz1666 They knew which way was up when they were aiming for the gap in the cloud, the first turbulence was also a wake up call.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@_John_P No, my engine makes the glider climb at about 2 knots in still air. They were in sink at -10 or more once they were over the other side of the ridge, so not going over there was the most important thing to do.

I'm a powered pilot, never flown gliders. This made me feel sick, luck was why they survived and I'm so glad it was on their side that day. I've got several thousand hours IMC but I still remember my first solo light into cloud, it was stressful and that was with training and proper instruments. Disorientation will kill you, but so also will the startle effect and the stress of just being in that situation. I know gliders are VFR only, but there are some great low cost ADHRS systems out there that could potentially save the day. That being said, you've then got to have the training to be able to confidently fly on instruments only. Maybe not getting into the situation in the first place is the best option.

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly right, we avoid that situation in the first place. Saying that many gliders and pilots do have cloud flying equipment and use it, so it's not uncommon. But because it is expensive, most club aircraft do not have them.

@stanm1977

Жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide we were not allowed to fly in the clouds. Ever. I flew for 10 years in Romania.

They didn’t even have instruments to try and make it out of this unless they had a horizon on their tablet... that is indeed frightening!

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

No they sure didn’t have anything, except a bit of luck!

@flightbase

3 жыл бұрын

Woth beeing mentioned: Even if your phone or tablet got some horizon feature, never ever feel safe using it. Its a goodie, but without lessons how to work with such "instruments" you are still not safe. Besides its a goodie, it may give you a wrong confidence.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

@@flightbase Exactly right, also you have to calibrate them etc

Wow...I felt panicked just watching that. Crazy how fast bad things can happen.

@PureGlide

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly right!

I flew a couple of weeks ago in a glider at Aero Club Salland in the Netherlands. The first thing a learned, it’s not allowed to fly in the clouds. You can’t see other gliders around you

@PureGlide

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! That’s generally the rule around the world for VFR gliding.

In Germany, we have to keep both in Horizontally and vertically away from the clouds with the sight of 3kms at least. I can't even imagine flying in the clouds and Hilly area.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Yes here in NZ it is 2km horizontally, and 500 feet vertically (above and below). And yes they were still too close.

@SixStringflyboy

3 жыл бұрын

@@PureGlide Here in the US for VFR, it's 500 feet below, 1,000 feet above, 2,000 feet horizontally for cloud clearances. Personal opinion (PPL, ASEL, 196 hrs), that glider should have been nowhere near that ridge to begin with. Not saying this happened here, but an instructor should never be afraid of disappointing or angering a student by calling a no-go, or by cutting a flight short. Plus if this student had 50 hours powered flight under his belt, he should have been well aware of the requirements you listed, and should have declined to fly close to the clouds. As PIC, that is his call and his responsibility. But we're all human, none of us is perfect. If I ever find myself in a similar situation, I hope I'm strong enough to overcome the urge to continue, and instead do what I know needs to be done.

Frightening,keep out of cloud in sailplanes,things happened so quickly there,thank you for showing this important video.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

@schnitzel2k3

3 жыл бұрын

Keep out of IMC in any aircraft if you do not have the proper training and (was or but you need both) instrumentation.

It's perfect study in human factors. The instructor obviously operates on the assumption that there's a task separation going on and that while he's dealing with the return leg, the student is taking care of safely flying the plane. But, unwittingly, he's constantly turning student's attention to altitude. And you can almost see how the tunel vision on lift and gaining altitude creeps in. Just before the critical turn, they almost stop climbing and the student immediately corrects by turning into the ridge. But they're in 40kts crosswind. It took 1 - 2 seconds and there's already no way out because they immediately get blown downwind of the clound ahead. Scary. So glad they made it out. I also wanted to give them credit for making this available. It's this great ability to share and learn from each others mistakes without being judgemental about it that frankly makes the aviation community stand out.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent comments, thank you.

After their mistake of getting pushed over the ridge, they managed to focus enough to get out of the situation. They won’t forget that lesson.

Great video.

@PureGlide

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!