Improve the frequency response of the popular Nagaoka MP-110 phono cartridge by optimizing the impedance and capacitive loading without having to modify your phono preamp.

@bottomendbliss

Жыл бұрын

Would turning the treble down a bit work or would that also affect too many other frequencies?

@moniqueduchossois1958

Жыл бұрын

la meilleur la3600 audio technica

@vaughntonkin539

4 ай бұрын

Treble knob on amp affects 10KHz@@bottomendbliss

@bottomendbliss

4 ай бұрын

You mean 10k and up? @@vaughntonkin539

Thanks for your experiment. It was very interesting to see.

A great video, very interesting. At 60 years old (20 years Northa40) I can only hear a bit over 12 kHz, I'm not sure I would even hear that bump. I think, having the flat response up to 10 kHz and having good channel separation is more important. For us seniors.

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, yeah, I didn't notice the bump when I was just listening to music before doing the measurements. Music generally doesn't have much energy that high in frequency, but it might annoy some people just knowing the bump is there. Cheers, Jake

@bottomendbliss

4 ай бұрын

Is it possible to improve the channel separation of the Nag 110?

@northa4021

4 ай бұрын

@@bottomendbliss assuming you have correct alignment, then it is what it is. Channel separation is a function of cartridge design and the phono pre amp you are using. I have had a MP11 and the new version the MP110 and really never liked either of them. With my Pro-Ject table I much prefer the Ortofon 2M Blue. The price is reasonable and gives you great clarity and good bass punch. Currently I have an AT120eb installed and really like it as well. This style of cartridge has great channel separation by design. Cheers!

@northa4021

4 ай бұрын

@@bottomendbliss The new version of the AT95e, the ATvm95e is very flat and a bargain. I have used the ATvm95en and this is truly a GREAT deal.

The StuffMade, thx for this video. Although I am far from being a Stereo engineer, watching Stuff Made like this is very interesting and provides a Learning Curve. Looks like you are usinga Schiit Mani Phono Preamp. I have the same despite that my Denon DRA-800H AV Receiver has a Phono Preamp built in. I hear a difference in sound using the Mani vs the Denon. Moreover, as a Music afionado (not really an Audiophiliac) I just recently experimented with Phono Cartridges. I have a Audio-Technica LP120XBT-USB TT, purchased in 2021 which came with a VM95E cartridge. I upgraded that Phono cartridge to a VMN 95EN (in a headshell with the stylus). But I also acquired a Nakaoka 110 cartridge, however, didn't try it until the other day. Using the same Mani Phono Preamp, the sound was noticeably enhanced - almost WOWed by the difference. FWIW, I am thinking to try a Fosi Phono Preamp to "test"the sound differences delivered by that Phono Preamp vs the Mani. If I get motivated I may try what you are doing here. Thank you for taking the Time to produce this a share your knowledge.

@Chiroman527

Жыл бұрын

I want to update my comments ... The Naga blew the 95E away. The 95E was upgraded with a new stylus a 95EN (Orange colored form the std Green stylus) I also have a AT- VM95 ML/H cartridge that will be tested using the same test LP: Born in the USA (Springsteen). I'll comment after doing the test.

I think I experienced this "bump" in using a Sansui vintage 777 amp: it has two phono inputs, one, which is 47 ohm, is flatter, & the other, 100k ohm, is brighter. I usually like the second, but with this stylus (it is actually a MP-150), I chose the "flatter" input. Interesting work here that suggests phono pre-amps should still have, like the late-60s Sansui amps, input options.

Very nice video and follow-up on the first one about the cartridges and the loading. I would really like to see more carts (if possible) tested like this! This is a great source of information demonstrated as is! Cheers. PS. May I ask what software was being used to record these result and put in graphs?

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, glad to hear you found the tests useful. I'd be happy to test more cartridges, but it gets a bit expensive as I have to buy the cartridges and it's a slow process as I have to make sure they have at least 25+ hours of use before testing. I do have a few other cartridges I've been using over the years, but they are older so I don't think testing them would be representive of the performance of a new cartridge. For the frequency response and channel separation I had to write some python scripts using the scientific Numpy libraries and some c# to process the sweeps as the Ortofon test record is using a constant velocity sweep and I wasn't able to find any software capable of processing that correctly. For distortion measurements I use the National Instruments/Digilent Waveforms package to analyze the data. Finally I created the charts in Libreoffice Calc. Cheers, Jake

What software and test record did you use for plotting the frequency response?

This cartridge may work best with a phono pre-amp with selectable loading rather than a fixed loading. 1dB may not look like much, but in a sound stage 1dB can make a pretty big difference. This will be a bit of a combination of personal taste and the pre-amp being used. That said, it would make a huge difference getting rid of that 5dB spike in the high treble region. This was a great experiment to watch and should encourage people to not be afraid of experimenting to get the sound they want from their system.

@TheStuffMade

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, I agree, ideally anyone seeking to get the most out of vinyl should have a pre-amp with adjustable loading to fine tune the cartridge performance. Cheers, Jake

@MrNicks-gn8jc

4 ай бұрын

Not many newer amps have selections for phono input capacitence and resistance. But two do offer 0 capacitence add from the phono preamp......Moon 110LP2 and much higher priced SPL Phono. Combine either with 150k ohm resistor plugs (any Vishay resistor pair will do fine) and a pair of Y splitters and you can see what that moving magnet can really do !

This is a problem with many moving magnet cartridges. A saddle in the presence region followed by a rise in the top octave.

Ohh can you share that spice simulation file please? That's pretty cool. I had a MP-200 and would say it sounded much how that graph looked like, in the end I went with a Audio Technica AT150MLx which blew it out of the water. I removed the loading caps of my phono pre as my cable end to end is around 220pf, at that with the 47k load it doesn't sound bad at all and gets rid of any peakyness, would be nice to measure one day.

Greate Video, thank you. Would love to see more of similar tests. I have been looking at various records with a inverted Riaa and have to say I'm surprised to se such variation. Have read that many record companies did not introduce the RIAA standar until 10-15 years after its introduction in the end of 50's. Means that similar difference or error can be found between different record companies but the error is not that of a bump but more flat. Still +/- several, up to 5 db in high frequency. Have you done any similar measurements? little difficult cause music is not the same as pink or white noise but we can measure random noise, kind of like music.

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, yeah the older records are a bit of a mess when it comes to equalization, so many standards used before everyone switched to the RIAA and I believe some of the older mastering engineers added a bit extra high frequency to compensate for the speakers they used back then. I haven't done actual measurements on music records, but it's clear that some sounds a bit hot while others sound a bit dull. I have considered designing some kind of tilting tone control that would allow variable tilting of the whole frequency range up or down for best listening experience.

That is the curse of SMT construction - you can't substitute a 10-turn mini potentiometer on the circuit board for the original resistor (or a variable capacitor, either). Nice experiment, though, with useful results.

I went with a 100 K resistor + 100 pF. I found the treble reduction to sound just right. More capacitance measures flatter but it rings.

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah it's best to have a listen until you find the values you prefer as it's of course affected by your phono amp and the cable between the cartridge and your amp. Cheers, Jake

@1mctous

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheStuffMade The MP-110 and -150 require different loading. Upon further listening I went with only the 100 pF for the MP-110 and R + C for the -150. Lower resistance on the -110 (50K + 100K in parallel) makes an audible saddle in the lower treble.

Nice, got to the end where you found raising from 47k / 150pf stock on the schiit to 100k / 330pf was the sweet spot. My phono is 100k/470pf stock so I may just leave it as is i was confused however why going to 100k had more impact on the highs than 200k, figured it would be linear?

@vaughntonkin539

4 ай бұрын

I changed out the 220pF for a 100 film cap on a TEC preamp, sound is clearer

That rise in frequency is part of the charm of this cart. What you gain reducing the hump you lose in something else. It’s a $250 cart. Either get over it or buy something else.

Would you please explain/show how to actually attach the resistor to the RCA plug? (Sorry, this may be an obvious question.)

most of us can't hear 17khz, so I feel this might not be a huge deal, but a flat response is always impressive.

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Agree, I didn't notice it when listening to the cartridge before doing any measurements, it's likely a combination of hearing rolling off and that most records don't have much content at these high frequencies. But some people will find it annoying just knowing there is a bump in the frequency response. And if you have a choice between 2 cartridges, everything the same except one got a flat frequency response and the other one got a 5 dB bump at 15-18kHz, then you'd probably chose the one with the flat response. Cheers, Jake

Just wondering what your ears can hear for their highest frequency? I had mine tested, and I only hear up to 16,400 hz, so a bump up high doesn't bother me. My Nagaoka 110 does sound very flat to my ears, but that may have something to do with my Graham Slee phono loading.

@TheStuffMade

7 ай бұрын

Sure, but the video is not particularly aimed at people 50+. Most people below 30 will be able to hear 20kHz. Cheers, Jake

Isn't 130 pF capacitance of a connecting cable (0:35) kind of too hight in this case? Would a use of another cable with lower capacitance help by shifting that FR peak higher in frequency?

@TheStuffMade

Жыл бұрын

Yes in theory that should work, but it's not so practical as you'd need to make the cable very short to have enough effect. Keep in mind 1/3 of the cable is inside the record player. You could try see if you can find cable with less capacitance, but it's difficult because it must still be shielded because of the small signal level and relatively high input impedance. The standard load impedance and capacitance for moving magnet cartridges is 47k and something like 100-200pF. Cheers, Jake

@IliyaOsnovikov

Жыл бұрын

@@TheStuffMade I currently have no turntable, but for other interconnects I am using Belden 89182 2x22AWG shielded cable that has a capacitance about 54 pF/m (16.5 pF/ft). However, that cable is not really flexible.

So you do need such a Y-splitter for both left and right lines?

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, you'd have to add this to both left and right channels to try this modification. Cheers, Jake

@ilisbsd

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheStuffMade thank you! This is something great to do on holidays 👍🏻

It's not the mp110 but your pre Amp that is doing this... Thé same cartridge on another pre Amp can have very different results of highs and lows.

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

How do you reach that conclusion? The Schiit Mani performance is well known, its flat from 20Hz to 20kHz within 0.5dB and it's got the standard MM impedance of 47k ohm plus less than 20 pF input capacitance. Also wouldn't your assumption conflict with the AT95E measuring nearly flat over the same range?

@darthbubba866

3 жыл бұрын

The 47kOhms || 10pf-to-200pf has been the standard MM phono input load for well over 50 years. It's the MP110 (and many other cartridges) that are the problem. I've got preamp manuals and schematics that show it back even farther.

How to increase load impedance in order to boost up my old cartridge premature high frequency roll off?

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

You could try add a 100-220pF capacitor in parallel, however you might want to consider replacing the stylus, a worn stylus will cause excessive wear to your records. Cheers, Jake

@alfa168fan2

3 жыл бұрын

Do you mean adding 100-200pf cap in parallel with cable signal wire? From one end to another end?

@TheStuffMade

3 жыл бұрын

@@alfa168fan2 I mean in parallel with the existing cable capacitance and music signal, meaning between the positive and negative wires on each channel. Cheers, Jake

Help I just brought a gold ring e3 and a project prevanp and it sounds bright and the tone control's only take a few dB off also to my ears there's to much from 8 to 10kh as well

@TheStuffMade

2 жыл бұрын

Have you tried it with a different phono preamp? Some of the Project preamps tend to sound a bit bright. Alternatively try the setup I use in this video and use something like a 68k to 100k resistor in the plug. Cheers, Jake

@gingernutpreacher

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheStuffMade no didn't want to spend more money when I be literally just brought this preamp but yes will have to try you're set up

@TheStuffMade

2 жыл бұрын

@@gingernutpreacher understand, yeah, it's very cheap to try out the setup I use in this video, shouldn't cost more than a few $ in total and you can play around with the values to fine tune the sound. Also make sure the cartridge is aligned optimally on your turntable, the alignment can make a big difference. Good luck Jake

@gingernutpreacher

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheStuffMade I've got a alinent perteactor the one where you check it on 2 point's and have set it to 2 grams but have no height adjustment on the arm

@bottomendbliss

Жыл бұрын

@@gingernutpreacher hang a tshirt over your speaker tweeter.

my phono allows for changing impedance and capacitance... if that doesn't work there's always tone control lol..

@bottomendbliss

Жыл бұрын

Or buying the cheaper mp100

wheres the audio comparison?

Nothing to see here