Hi Nic, As someone who is predominantly a snooker player but plays a lot of pool on a snooker table, I think I need to defend the pivot system a little bit because it is definitely useful and worth having in your toolbox. You seem to have overlooked the key point which is that the first thing you MUST do is find the pivot point of your cue and you must position your bridge exactly at this point whenever you are attempting to use the pivot system. The fact that it's possible (and quite easy) to find this pivot point, I think in itself proves that there's something to this. What I do is place an object ball at one end of the table, the cue ball at the other, have a guess at the pivot point and mark it on the cue with some tape. When the pivot point is in the correct position you will be able to aim for centre ball strikes and no matter how much pivot (or side-spin) you apply, as long as you're hitting it firmly, you can hit the object ball dead centre. I was fairly stunned by how effective this turns out to be when I tried it first and watched the cue ball spinning on the spot after impact. This effectively takes deflection out of the equation and makes it quite easy to pot with extreme amounts of side (think 4 on the training ball). The reason I think some of the best pool players in the world use this system is not because of larger pockets (the modern standard of 4" pockets with 2.25" balls is not all that generous any more) but because the types of shot where this is really useful come up in pool all the time but hardly ever in snooker. Where I usually employ this technique is when the object ball is fairly close to the corner pocket and I want to run through with tons of running side to whip the cue ball around the angles and get down for a ball at the other end of the table. I'm not a wonderful snooker player but I can usually crank out a century break in a session and I cannot reliably make that pot using conventional methods (less than 50/50 to make the pot). I hesitated to embrace the pivot system at all because as a snooker player, deliberately cutting across the cue ball just feels so wrong but it dramatically simplifies these kind of extreme shots. Like I said, I don't think this is massively relevant for snooker because if you find yourself regularly applying level 4 spin during your breaks, you have bigger issues. I can't remember if I've ever pulled this out of the bag during a snooker break but it definitely improves my pool game so I would recommend playing around with if you're curious and you might be surprised with the results as I was.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Phelim. In my other comments here I have said that players who think they are applying the pivot system are in fact not doing so (otherwise they would miss more often)... they are actually using their past trial and error. If the pivot system was set up on a potting robot that is where it would fall down in my opinion. I do have a semi robotic potting device which could illustrate this with range of bridge lengths, shot speeds, amount of english, and cb/ob distances. I have made a not to record that the next time I am in the training room

@phelim78

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSnookerGym Thanks Nic. I agree that a robot would struggle to consistently make pots but I don't think that's massively relevant. What this method does it pretty much cancel out ONE of the variables you have to contend with i.e how the deflection varies depending on how much side you're applying. When that variable is removed, I personally find it far simpler to pot balls with loaded sidespin. Am I using my using my playing experience to compensate for throw etc?.... yes absolutely but you have to do that anyway so I don't that that should be a criticism of the technique. I think what it comes down to is the trade-off of reducing the complexity of the subconscious calculation you need to make versus the the disruption to your normal pre shot routine and having to alter your bridge position. For me personally; for certain pool shots, it's definitely worth the trade-off. If someone managed to set up the robotic experiment and said "Aha look, it can miss some pots by up to 2 inches, this technique is garbage!", I would counter that by saying " OK, now set up the robot to try using your method and compare the results". Well you obviously can't can you because you need to do a calculation to know where to aim it. If you're Nic Barrow, I'm sure you can do that calculation and consistently outperform the pivot robot but I know I can't!

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

That is a good point Phelim - and my view on the bridge distance is different to many: My mantra is to decide on the bridge distance that optmises accuracy (too long bridge hand = reduced accuracy) and aiming (not short bridge hand =.reduced aiming because you see less of the cue) Then, keep it the same at all times - and simply learn to compensate with side. I think pool players can get away with not prioritising the bridge length first at their pockets are so big. Granted not everyone agrees with me - although when a player is good enough to do so automatically I do suggest they try shortening the bridge length in the balls and see if that yields better results. But until a player has made a 60-80 break this can cause more problems that it solves as they can mess up their balance on the shot and their back arm position relative to vertical (from the side on view).

Beautifully explained Nic. Really helpful, AND enjoyable to watch. It's incredible that even if you line up properly, the wrong SPEED of shot can make you miss.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Mark - I was a bit concerned that the video was too talky but some topics demand it. This is what nobody understands about the pivot system - that there is ONLY one line of aim for the given distance / speed / amount of side for a given shot. That aim CAN NEVER be calculated consciously because there are too many variables involved - EG humidity differences can change the required line of aim from one hour to the next. My statement (and I am sticking to it!) is that players who THINK they are using the pivot system and potting centre pocket are either NOT using the former or not doing the latter. It is impossible to do both in my opinion.... but I am obviously always delighted to be proven wrong and if I am then I will be able to stop misinforming my students.... nobody has proven my statements wrong yet though.

@markgilmore2077

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSnookerGym Yes quite agree. I think in the end it does boil down to experience and intuition and it is pretty much impossible to calculate. I surprise myself sometimes when I just automatically 'know' where to strike the cue ball and how far to estimate deflection, and sometimes *SOMETIMES* I get it right and just for one shot I'm Ronnie! But now that you have busted parallel and pivot cueing, I feel we need another vid reminding us how to aim with side properly?! Because surely if you are aiming anywhere on the cueball other than dead centre, then you're not aiming completely at the ghost ball? Or is that as it should be?

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Mark well I actually AM aiming the cb at the ghost ball (factoring in deflection). No different to a pilot knowing how much to turn the plane sideways into the wind when landing in a side wind of a given speed. I hope you enjoyed last week's video?

@markgilmore2077

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSnookerGym Another perfect analogy!! Yes love your vids Nic. Really enjoy your presentation style. Would def visit you if only I lived nearer.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Mark - I appreciate your words and I always get a bit nervous when posting videos in case they get panned LOL! Ps where do you live? I may be travelling near you some time - let me know here if you like and I will reply to you and suggest some free resources: Full details of directions on how to reach The Snooker Gym Academy can be found here... www.thesnookergym.com/contact-us

Interesting topic! I have played snooker for around 40 years. One season as pro, and a few decades international level. In 2015 i took up nineball, and recently got a tourcard on the WNT. Until about 9 months ago....i had never heard of this system! I even spoke to Lee Walker who is one of the leading snooker coaches and he didnt have a clue what i was talking about and had never heard of it lol. Many snooker pros have never come across this either. I have tried it on both american pool and snooker tables. I cant say i 'like it' but there is definitely something in it. You need to do more with the cueball in nineball, and often have to move the cueball around the table using sidespin or 'english'. Its therefore a more useable method in nineball. Pocket size to me is irrelevant...particularly since 4" pockets have come in. Pace without doubt impacts its effectiveness, but then so does pace effect the traditional method of aiming using judgement and guessing based on experience. This method appears to work better for medium to strong pace shots. Also angled shots. Give the method a go on a half ball pink into the corner. One where you are low, and need running side to get back down for the black off two cushions. A difficult shot with guesswork. I would amazed how reliable pivot was on this type of shot. I think personally for advanced players, its a good system to have in your back pocket for specific shots.

@TheSnookerGym

6 күн бұрын

Thank you Marcel - although this video does debunk the pivot system... I feel it causes way more problems that the problem is claims to, but cannot, solve. Maybe we played each other at some point in 80s/90s pro ams near London?

@marcelprice1100

6 күн бұрын

​@TheSnookerGym we may have done Nic! It was more like late 90s I was coming through. You probably came across a lot of my mates like Mark Tucker, Mark Fenton, Tony Chappel etc! They were competing a few years before me.

@marcelprice1100

6 күн бұрын

​@@TheSnookerGymactually if you are London way.... you may know Imran Majid who is the one who showed me this method lol

Hi Nic, this is an excellent demonstration. Thank you so much to clear the confusion. I would love to see a video with systematic way to help players to aim when putting side. It seems to be a big secret in snooker as no video shares this information. I could understand it takes a lot of practice to perfect the skill, but should there be a better aiming system to allow higher chance to hit the target. Keep up with the excellent training video. ( Love your approach to put practice and theory together...best approach in teaching)

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you George - I was a bit nervous that this video was a bit too wordy but the topic required it in this case. I have a way to learn aiming with side that is so simple compared to the unscientifc and unsystematic Parallel and Pivot aiming 'systems'

Also the diamond marks on the American pool tables are definitely unsportsmanlike conduct

@DANTHETUBEMAN

Жыл бұрын

lol 😂😆

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

That would be the subject of another myth busters video as the diamond 'system' is not actually a system because it depends on cloth age, ball condition, humidity in the atmosphere, speed of shots being played, cushion rubber type amongst other variables! In my opinion using the diamond system often gets in the way of players naturally (and effectively) guessing and judging where the cue ball is going to go in given situations.

Liked and subscribed! I love both cue sports and I play both on the same day (when possible) competitively. I've always resisted hearing/reading about "aiming systems" as there are many factors involved with side spins ie: cloth, speed, acceleration/deceleration, etc. I think the ones that seek out aiming systems are looking for "security". Aiming systems such as CTE will not work on a snooker table when playing positional shots....and that's without any side spin. The nap of the cloth will drive CTE instructors crazy 😆 because shots with the nap, across the nap and against the nap are all different aiming with center ball aiming at varying speeds, with side spins it gets more complicated. Side spin requires accuracy on where you hit the cue ball (where you aim is where you must hit) and feel of the entire shot, as making the object ball is only a part of it. Side spin is very complicated and if someone tries to put down to science it will only slow down their progress. I say go with trial and error, put your hours in on the practice table, get to know your cue on how it reacts to side spin. On a side note, I once helped someone install a snooker cloth and I marked the spots wrong and got the black and baulk colors reversed by accident...players were going nuts for 2 days lol

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Cloudy Wolf. Yes I agree with all this - I did not have a F****** CLUE about impact throw until after I had made a 147... and Stephen Hendry told me when he had retired that he had no clue about it ("I just pot the balls!")... people over complicate the game - just practice with a perfect delivery, watch the F****** BALL to the pocket and learn by trial and error!

Can't believe it 45 likes with 45 comments... Great community...

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Perfectly balanced!

One system that uses the pivot method is CTE ( centre to edge). From the world of pool. Some of the ideas in CET for recognising potting angle can really help a player with their angle recognition. I don’t use or recommend a pivot for snooker. However we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. To me it seems crazy to pivot in snooker.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

My argument is that there is zero difference between the sports Alan. Why would there be? Just because pool has a vastly bigger margin of error for aiming, does not mean that potting exactly where you intend (centre pocket or if one has no other option pinching the pocket) is still not priceless for consistency of potting and for positional play. My view is that pool players generally don't understand the danger of pinching the pocket, and do so way more than even club snooker players do (which in turn is way more than pro snooker players do - as they understand the danger attached to pocket pinching risk)

I think the throw effect is pretty large as well at 7:00. The throw is quite confusing because a moderate side throws the object ball more than a heavy side spin.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Hi Erno Yes that is true and speed affects throw also. My point is that this throw is always less of a variance than the aiming compensation required with side / english. So players actually do not need to know about it - I did not know about it until after I had made a 147. What I am saying is that the side spin induced throw is just discounted by the brain into the compensation calculation. All we need to get better at is guessing where the OB will go for a given cue line of aim with a given speed and amount of english. Get better at that and you get better at guessing the correct aim with side.

Hi Nic, I think that distance between cue ball and object ball is too small for side effect of the shot... In this case when you make pivot it just changes the direction of the aim line that's why your all the time object ball is directed to right from the pocket... Here some players using this pivot in very small amount for slightly angled pots... to make very slight angle on pot...

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Hi Burendei... that is my point - that it does not work because you have to change the line of aim too much if the bridge hand pivot remains on the line of aim. As mentioned to Phelim Bradley in the comments today, I have made a note to prove on other shot combinations that it is also not a scientific system that has predictable results.

It's true, I see this nonsense all the time in pool. Even smart people who should know better keep repeating and teaching it. "Pivot system", "backhand english", or I've also heard the german version "Diagonaleffet"... It's so frustrating. When I try to explain why the physics of it make no sense, they don't listen and attempt to "demonstrate" it by potting balls, as if that proved anything. Unbelievable levels of delusion.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Treulose Tomate... the issue is that (MY WORDS THAT I AM STICKING BY UNLESS I AM PROVED WRONG - WHICH I OBVIOUSLY WANT TO BE IF I AM WRONG AS I WANT TO STOP MISINFORMING MY AUDIENCE IF SO) "All players WHO THINK they are successfully applying the 'Parallel Aiming System (see last week) / or Pivot Aiming System to aim with side spin / english - are not successfully applying it. They just think they are, but are actually going with subconscious judgement gained through trial and error." If you get any player who proclaims 'Parallel' or secondly "Pivot' is a valid system... then get them on a cueing robot and ask them to programme FIRST TIME the bridge distance required such that (for the bridge fulcrum being on the centre cue ball line of aim) the speed of shot / side required / distance to object ball is accommodated.... they will fail every time. If I am wrong, though, I want to know so anyone reading this is welcome to provide a retort for a sharing of perspectives (I am not an opinion fascist - I welcome all thoughts but at the same time will not give tacit approval to an argument with holes in it!)

Amazing

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thanks

How does top professional players calculate for extreme Spin for very new scenario...

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

An accurate trial and error bank with thousands of deposits

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

There is no secret to calculating aim or compensation - it cannot be taught, only learned.

On British Pool, small ball size specially cue ball relative to the object balls and small Pool tables and only 7 Reds and 7 Yellows and the black ball, and also on US Pool tables only 7 Spots and 7 Stripes, with unreasonable big pocket size takes the accuracy and skill out of the game and makes it too easy, and therefore does not challenge the human spirit to push himself/herself to its limits to achieve higher standards, and that is what makes the pool inferior to snooker. But if we play Pool on full size or 10 foot Snooker table with 9 Reds or Blues and 9 Yellows or Oranges and the black or purple Snooker size balls then the Pool Will be as interesting and difficult as Snooker.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Djelal

So, basically, no aiming system is fully correct and the game is all feel at the end of the day. Some shots require different touches and it's best to learn them all. And I'm sure someone out there can take the pivot to snooker and still dominate as in the end, it is still just feel no matter what size equipment

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

I agree - and most aiming 'systems' players use are either wrong or way over convoluted to be helpful.

that's what I came up with looking at this, same with center to edge and pivot, the guys that where demonstrating it where definitely compensating there aim. it only works on one or two angles, so I say it's not even a system. lol 😆😂.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Precisely - and even those who THINK they are using the parallel or pivot or BHE/FHE systems are not actually doing so - their final filter for aiming is trial and error which is all we ever have anyway. Like a toddller learning to walk, eventually it becomes natural..

@DANTHETUBEMAN

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSnookerGym I'm still waiting on some natural ability over hear , lol 😂😆

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

I can email some for $1,000,000?!

You’re demonstrating back hand pivot I feel like you should mention that. Your cue has such little deflection (bc it’s a very good cue) that you won’t need any back hand pivot on any shot ever Only front hand pivot. You keep your grip hand in exactly the same position for every shot but you alter where your bridge hand is. So your pivot point is longer still on the shot line and you can use any length of bridge you want to. Or the same bridge length on every shot which you’re implying is correct. The thing is you’re not wrong on anything you’re saying but at the same time you’re being misleading by saying pivot doesn’t work. Most good snooker cues have such low end mass that they do not require much adjustment when using side. As long as you hit a side spin shot fast enough before it swerves you can use front hand pivot only. Maybe do the same video using front hand pivot only and I’ll be shocked if your cueball goes to the left of the shot line using left hand side like you demonstrated here.

@IFranchisedI

Жыл бұрын

Oh and a follow up please use the same cue because yes obviously with a cue that’s not as nice as yours the cueball will travel across the shot line to the right of the aim point with left hand side and front hand pivot. I know you know this but clearly your audience doesn’t

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

That is true about BHE - but FHE is just as unsystematic and unscientific. My cue has average deflection, but cue deflection is irrelevant to making a fixed calculation as deflection changes with ball types, ball cleanliness, cloths, humidity levels etc. There are an uncalculateable amount of variables when working out side spin squirt / aim compensation that the only way to do it reliably is through trial and error. There is no way to calculate it consciously. I disagree about changing the bridge length as well as that usually gives even bigger errors than it is trying to cleverly save - like paying a dollar for a dime. I believe I am totally accurate in stating "The Pivot 'System' does NOT work with BHE or FHE and is a figment of player's imaginations. If they think they are applying it and the balls are going in they actually aren't applying it - they are subconsciously selecting the correct and only line of aim for the cue for a given distance / speed / amount of side. This line of aim is unique for every shot and cannot be calculated with BHE or FHE even if players mistakenly think they are doing so." Now, there is nothing wrong in living in ignorance as long as one is getting the result - what I object to is when credence is given to something else other than what is causing the result. So my job is to shake those ideas out ;-) I will put together another video on this next time I am in the club and would welcome opinions on that. Eventually my goal is to EITHER extinguish everyone's Pivot / Parallel / BHE / FHE arguments to their satisfaction, or to prove myself wrong and upgrade my perspective on things.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

Yes POV snooker of course will use same cue to reduce variables. I have a little prop that will remove me as a variable as much as possible and it will offer a perspective I wish I had known before I started learning English with side. Even my coach taught me a way of thinking about side that was WRONG but got me the result in the beginning. In the end, I pulled apart his errors in my mind and improved my knowledge of using side so that there were less gaps between reality, and my mental model of it.

@IFranchisedI

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSnookerGym thanks Nic should be interesting. By the way I wasn’t saying you should change your bridge length just that you could. But I am curious how you apply side spin personally then? Because if you’re not using only front hand adjustment then your grip hand is not keeping the cue on the shot line which just surprises me to hear you say.

@TheSnookerGym

Жыл бұрын

I use THE (TWO HAND ENGLISH!). So I pay zero attention to any hand - I only care about guessing (based on past experience which is all anyone ever has) the line the cue needs to be on for the given distance / speed / side spin of the shot on a given set of conditions during the weather of a given day!