Hey, it’s a free country. I converted to Lutheranism from a Roman Catholic upbringing. I read On the Incarnation and have devoured many of the fathers. These writings and teachers are not something hidden from Lutherans. I would ask the gentleman posting if he is familiar with the Catalogue of Testimonies in the Book of Concord and how many times the fathers are quoted and cited throughout the Lutheran Confessions? Laugh if you want, but I even was a member at a St. Athanasius Lutheran Church that would put a quote from St. Athanasius in the church bulletin every week. My point is, deep reading of the fathers does not simply mean one becomes Eastern Orthodox. It’s not as simple as all that. Blessings on your journey. May we all reach the eternal kingdom.

Deification can be found in Lutheran Dogmaticians, as it agrees with St. Peter who writes that we will be made partakers of the Divine Nature. Justification does not at all mutually exclude Deification or Mystical Union.

@looqo7632

8 ай бұрын

I'm curious why this teaching is so unheard of within Lutheranism.

@marcuswilliams7448

8 ай бұрын

@@looqo7632 It isn't unheard of, but I would say that, because it doesn't form the basis of our right standing before God, it isn't emphasized as much as Justification proper. For similar reasons, I suppose, Justification is not given proper attention in Orthodoxy because of such a weighty emphasis on Theosis. However, one could read the Philaret Catechism and see hints of substitutionary atonement and Justification in not dissimilar terms as you would find it amongst the Lutheran Confession.

@looqo7632

8 ай бұрын

@@marcuswilliams7448 Thanks for that. Though I would state that Orthodoxy just has a different understanding of justification so it would seem we don't emphasize it much when really it's everywhere.

@ettgnell92

Ай бұрын

Can you provide quotations from some?

Ur story mirrors mine aswell , Protestant now orthodox To God be The Glory

I appreciate the honesty of your presentation. Thank you.

Orthodoxy: Salvation is the result of your cooperation with GOD... Lutheranism: GOD saves you. Period.

@jacfalcon

4 ай бұрын

Orthodoxy: Salvation is a realtionship and works like other relationships, requiring consent and effort. Lutheranism: Salvation is a legal contract that you only have to verbally sign.

@j.g.4942

4 ай бұрын

@@jacfalcon In Lutheranism, it's more like the legal contract of a betrothal/marriage; all that is mine becomes Christ's (my failure, my death) and all that is Christ's becomes mine (His righteousness swallows up my sin, His eternal Life becomes my life). The full glorious consummation is yet to come, yet we have a foretaste of it, according to God's Word.

@jacfalcon

2 ай бұрын

@@j.g.4942 That sounds a lot better to me! Mainly just pushing back against the original comment, but what you said is a lot better. Historically, marriage wasn't actually viewed as a legal contract before God, but that was more a later Catholic development. Marriage was the relationship, the bond itself, but the Church knew such a bond when done well was never broken. Pagans were seen to have marriage, but what was in the Church was not a contract but a sacrament, meaning marriage in the Church united one with God through the sacrificial bond of the marriage. And this sacrificial bond is why God shares everything with us, not so much a contract as the natural order of relationships.

@grettirasmundarson9980

2 ай бұрын

I’ll take the Lutheran approach, which, coincidentally, happens to be the New Testament approach.

Only 3:24 in but wow that athanasius book sounds eye opening, i need to personally get more knowledge on early church fathers but the orthodoxy feels so right. Like you are quite knowledgeable but also seem nice and comforting, its very loving and that makes me enjoy listening.

I appreciate your to-the-point exposition of the fillioque issue. I've heard loads of explanations and extrapolation, but hardly ever does anyone just state it plainly, why it's an issue and how it changes the theology.

@acekoala457

8 ай бұрын

It changes Christ. Gives something that only belongs to the Father to the Son. So it is literally preaching a different Christ to the Gospel.

I appreciate this video brother. I wrestle with the same things you did. Currently attend an Orthodox Church (my country has no confessional Christian bodies anywhere near me and is an orthodox majority country) while still being a Lutheran seminarian wrestling with issues. I appreciate your honesty I’m sharing your issues you had :) it helps me articulate my problems and to try to better find solutions for them. God Bless and Christ has Risen!

Good video! I converted thirty years ago. ☦

Why didn't I think about that at all! 16:08, the Bible is telling us who the church was sending the letters to, before the compilation of the Bible, therefore the churches set up are how we are supposed to worship. Wow.

Welcome, brother!

God bless you brother. 🍺☦️☦️☦️

2 years later, but anyways thank so much... great video 🙏☦

God bless ☦️

I think you need a better understanding of Psalm 82. I do see the points that you are getting at, but I think they are just a little skewed. Psalm 82 is not about believers becoming “gods” but about the “gods” of the nations. Also called demons. And “gods” are not exactly what we are becoming. Are we going to get new spiritual bodies, and be more like God? Yes we are. I understand “gods” doesn’t mean what everyone thinks, and that doesn’t mean we are going to rule over our own planets like mormon belief. But I think for future context, you should better explain what “gods” people are to become. Because I do believe in the concept of Theosis. But none the less, God bless you and I hope your path stay straight and fixated on Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Wow cheers im a convert from lutheranism too

Hey! Would you be down to appear on our channel for an interview?

Great video ! What is your Orthodox name ? My name is Νικόλαος and I'm from Greece

Thank you and God be your strength..your the first person beside mom ,bless her soul mention Jaroslav Pelikan .He was right look at her the Lutheran church let alone German Lutheran..stubbed since Sasse and American Nazi Party

I am in the same position you were 20 years ago...a Lutheran looking to the East. This whole idea that the Church doesn't exist in one place today...makes out Jesus to be a liar when He said "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". Lutherans say "the church is where the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly preached." That only tell us the MAKEUP of the church.....NOT where it is! When one asks them "point me to the Church"...they cannot, because they cannot lay claim to being the Church because the Lutheran church is scattered all over not under One Holy Head. It is a splinter. It is not truly Church. It is confusion. Please pray for me, and strength to actually follow up and leave Lutheranism and become Orthodox.

@invaderzimrocksify

Жыл бұрын

I am in the same place. May we find the strength to do what is right.

@dave1370

Жыл бұрын

If you actually think that the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't have splinters, you are gravely mistaken.

@azurephoenix9546

Жыл бұрын

@Dave Sure, there are different churches scattered all over, but are they in communion with each other? That's the question. The other problem is that lutheranism is a descendent of Augustin, who is a descendent of Anselm, hence penal substitutionary atonement, and a blood thirsty God the "father", which makes many an atheist, with good reason, since he taught that it was the only way that proper and right justice could be done for the sins of the world. His intense emphasis on personal sinfulness is an affectation of his having been an Augustinian monk, and Augustin being intensely focused on his personal sinfulness. (Which then compels one towards personal holiness as a penance for all the Jesus killing they do through being sinful, guilty as they are already by merely being human. Except for babies, who may or may not be condemned, haven't quite got that sorted yet.) The reason faith alone doesn't work is because the natural conclusion to that is that I don't have to do anything but believe, and I'm all good. Because lutheranism is itself a descendent of Roman catholicism, it can not shake off the incorrect theology of the Roman catholic church. Next, Luther, in order to rebuke many things he didn't like, rejected many biblical texts. Kind of makes Sola scriptura a problem when he can just go around taking a theological axe to everything he doesn't like, so he ends up having to dump maccabees, which necessarily means he also has to dump Jesus because without the temple functional, Jesus cannot be born under the law, fulfilling all parts because then the temple wouldn't have been functioning properly, which it obviously was since Paul and Peter go there all the time. That's just one example. Another is his insistence that the mazoritic text be used. The MT is *specifically* a text edited and commentated and even rearranged and reorganized to avoid anything that might point to Jesus as the messiah. His choice to destroy the OT has caused the nearly 90,000+ variations of protestantism that corroded not only Christianity as a concept, a lifestyle, a moral baseline, but also the society it built. By the end of his life, Luther was a straight up heretic, condoning polygamy and all manner of insanities, and being forced to change the Bible, not only by slashing books he didn't care for, he *added to the text* in order to make his assertions work. Most Lutherans I know say he went mad. I disagree. Imo, he went to the logical conclusion of his assertions and came out the other side, making no sense.

@HRGoldenky

Жыл бұрын

I think the church being just the eastern orthodox church is not that easy, just like you would argue of the Roman Church of pope. From the beginning the apostles went different ways. Thomas went to India and started a church that worked with Christ as their head, as did the churches that Paul established. No apostle was greater than other and no apostle had power over other churches and their teachings, not even their "own" churches because there is only one head of church that is Christ. Paul writes in Corinthians 12 that one body many parts that I recommend you to read. We can't say where the* kingdom of God is because it is in the faith. Also if you think there is only one visible church of Christ there will be not true believers inside the church so you will never even know if your own local church even has true believers. Always focus in your own faith not in the worldly things, and not even in your own faith but to Christ who was risen and you will rise as He when you believe in Him if He so wishes. (20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.) People (mostly Roman catholics or russian orthodox) confuse their heads when they teach that the perfection and full body of Christ is visible only in their church when we can clearly see that God has given his holy spirit, gifts of the Spirit; faith, tongues, profesies to other "churches" also. In my opinion that just shows how Great and beyond human thought and imagination the body of Christ goes. If someone claims that their visible church is the only body of Christ I think it denies that anyone not in that body could be a part of the Christ. It reminds me of Peter how he realised how God gave holy spirit also to uncircumcised. 1 Corinthians 3 is also a good defender of this position I explained. "The gates of hell will not prevails against it". They never will like our Lord said.

@wazimdorris6803

Жыл бұрын

I feel the exact same way! I am an ex Muslim and been a Lutheran for about 1.5 years now. During this time, I had Orthodoxy in the back of my mind the whole time. Pray for me

You should debate Jordan Cooper.

I am a Lutheran from Germany, and I feel like I have to respond to this. The main division between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is sola scriptura, because every essential doctrine in Lutheranism is build on that. But to me it sounds as if you don't really understand our understanding of sola scriptura: You make it sound like the church inspired Scripture. With your presupposition it sounds like the church somehow "adopted" the canon through the Holy Spirit. But church fathers and councils can't make Scripture more or less inspired! The gospels did not "become" inspired in 380; they were canonical from the beginning of their existance. Therefore, Scripture does not depend on the church. That means, the canon is not defined by authoritative dogma of human institutions, but by reason. We don't need a council to know that the Didache is not canonical.

@looqo7632

8 ай бұрын

Orthodox understanding is that the writers of the Gospels and epistles are members of the Church of Christ and were so inspired by the Spirit BECAUSE if this. These sacred writings were written to inspire the Church already established, and we not the foundation of the Church.

Church fathers are not allknowing. We will come fully human, not God. Stay in the Bible. John. 10:34 "you are gods" refers to OT, Ps.82:6 judges who were called "gods, sons of the most high" for their divine function of exercising judgment.(NET bible, full-notes). Get sound doctrine from Adam Harwood's Christian theology.

@johnnyd2383

2 ай бұрын

Ps 82 is about humans... therefore, John 10 reference is also about the humans becoming gods. Learn about the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of Theosis.

So many of the arguments you use here could be used against you by other churches. You're simply behind the question and making unwarranted extrapolations. And, there are tons of places where we can see in the church fathers that justification is simply by faith and not of works of our own. I can show you if you would like.

Eastern Orthodoxy presents eachself as ''patristic'', but it is not. EOC theologians are almost ignorant of the Fathers. The first serious readers of the Fathers were the Lutherans. Lutherans do not deify the Fathers. They accept anything they said in accordance with the law/gospel distinction and nothing else. Fathers did also many mistakes and they also expressed wrong views. We judge them according to their accordance with the gospel and according to their literary style. Nothing more. It is so sad you put under the ''heterodoxy'' label Luther side by side with...Calvin and...Zwingli. They were adversaries! Also, you do not pay honor to the Roman Catholic Church which in the epoch of the heresies was more orthodox than the eastern part of christianity. Gnosticism means ''saved by our free will'' and you believe exactly this. At the same time, you accuse the real anti-gnostic church, the lutheran, as a...gnostic one. This is called confusion.

@TheMhouk2

6 ай бұрын

"the first serious readers of the Fathers were the Lutherans" 😂 then who was getting quoted at Chalcedon by the Bishops present? Who recorded St John Chrysostom's homilies in the 4th century? Who read and kept the writings of the Cappadocians?

@johnnyd2383

2 ай бұрын

Writings of the Holy Fathers were collecting the dust until unhappy drunken German monk showed up back in 16th century.? AHAHAHAHAHAH...

It`s so simple. Just ask: who changed? And whoever changed must be wrong. Orthodoxy is the only one the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

This video is so wrong,

@orthodoxchristianmen

2 жыл бұрын

Christ is Risen! Care to debate that?

Total blasphemy. This is Mormonism as well as New Age.

@orthodoxchristianmen

Жыл бұрын

Christ is Risen! Care to debate that?

@DEADn1

Жыл бұрын

@@orthodoxchristianmen Agreed Christ is risen. I only managed the first 3 min of your video and that is where my comments come from. What you said the early church fathers said do not even agree with scripture so who do we beleive then? The church fathers or Scripture? Is the church above scritpure or scripture above the church? Should they not be in agreement with one another? Shouldn't scripture tell us what we should believe about the Gospel? Isn't that where the Church gets its authority?

@Castellano87

Жыл бұрын

This may help understand theosis kzread.info/dash/bejne/eJaiubOSXbrLac4.html

@orthodoxchristianmen

Жыл бұрын

@@DEADn1 Great questions! Watch the whole video as I answer some of them; but I should really do a follow up show and go into greater detail.

@orthodoxchristianmen

Жыл бұрын

Not Mormonism. We become "gods" be grace, i.e., the enrergy of God, not the essence of God - that would indeed by blasphemy. "God became man so that man may become god (by grace)" was written by St. Athanasius, and all of the Church Fathers - yes ALL - taught this from the beginning. It is not New Age, it is the Ancient Orthodox Faith. That's why I became Orthodox, it is the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church, the Body of Christ; it IS Christ-ianity.