Thank you! I come across this shit with aircooled VWs all the time. The internet says (and told me when I built my beetle 15 years ago) that a front disc conversion is a nice upgrade. Well wouldn't that affect the bias? No, they tell you, the car weight transfers so it's fine. Well, years later I slid my Beetle into a ditch with it's front discs only setup. Now look was that 100% my fault trying to hang the ass out and not knowing how to drive? Absolutely. But I remember sliding towards that ditch just thinking "I'm not even going fast and these brakes are doing NOTHING." I could not modulate the brakes such to create deceleration. Why? Because the internet lied, because you see people on the internet are just some jackasses. And the parts companies, well they just want to sell you parts, so they don't care. What I discovered years later when I started autocrossing the car was the front-only setup was HORRIFICALLY bad. It couldn't stop for SHIT. What people typically never do after modifying the brakes of a car is actually take the car out onto a back road and see how well it stops. Even ass-dyno, you never hear of someone going "oh yeah I went out, slammed on the brakes, it was way better." They just drive around the block and say hey yeah, feels fine. Well it'll feel fine until you discover one of the axles prematurely locks. My brother built a '69 C10, beautiful new paint, LS engine, etc. But he was new to building cars and installed the proportioning valve backwards. What this means is that it absorbed brake pressure from the FRONT axle not the rear. So on the very first drive, we were cruising down the road when the ML250 in front of us swerves around what was revealed to be a stopped car. He slammed on the brakes and the rear axle completely locked, no brakes. Luckily he had his wits about him and was able to steer around the stopped car safely and no harm was done. Here's the deal with braking, there's a concept called the Ideal Brake Curve, it describes how much force each axle can create at varying rates of deceleration. The car weight transfers by deceleration generated by the tires. If you had a magical tractor beam that slowed the car from it's center of mass, it wouldn't weight transfer. Again the weight transfer is a product of the CG height and the deceleration generated by the tires. So if your car is severely biased wrong, it will not weight transfer because it will not generate enough deceleration. (www.theautopian.com/an-engineer-describes-the-ideal-brake-curve-and-why-cars-have-such-vastly-different-brake-sizes/) I can't recommend the youtube channel Suspensions Explained enough for TRULY understanding this stuff. As you touched on the proportioning valve exists to absorb some pressure off the rear axle to tip the hydraulic pressure curve to match the ideal brake curve. This is because a hydraulic system is linear vs the curve of ideal braking. So! If you put a race car style twin master with balance bar setup on a car, and you dial it in perfect for a road course with your big brakes, lets say on a 69 Camaro or something. That car now actually stops WORSE than factory in the rain, why? Because factory would have a proportioning valve and a more rear-biased setup than the race car shit. Same thing if you have a modern ABS car and you delete the ABS, it will now only be biased for maximum decel (Z-critical), which means braking will severely suffer in the rain. You can improve stuff from factory, but you're not outsmarting the engineers, you have to also become an engineer and shift the design criteria.

@UncleTonysGarage

8 ай бұрын

Yup!

@thebluelunarmonkey

8 ай бұрын

@@UncleTonysGarage It's the worst in the truck world on the internet like reddit. "How big a tire can I put on my truck without it rubbing?" As if that's the only consideration. Rear drum conversions. Lift. No one mentions their towing or axle ratio or other pertinent issues when asking for intardweb advice. You know what I'm saying without listing it all. I personally stick to the two manufacturer suggested sizes for tires, period. I don't swap to large rims. And when I have to order parts for a daily driver, I don't want to consult a spreadsheet for all the non-standard crap I put on the vehicle. "I need brakes, but I can't order for my year/make/model because I swapped for some aftermarket junk conversion"

@Hipsters_N_Hippies

8 ай бұрын

My first and foremost suggestion for modifications is more energy efficient lights. (So there is less draw on the alternator.) Then the second modification is Lighter weight wheels with the same size and offset specs. At this point people usually ask me my first suggestion when someone talks about adding or increasing power output....well, my suggestion there is to start working on the cooling system as step one. Because the by product is heat. And then follow that up with smoothing out entrance to the the oil drain back holes. (This is usually when everyone stops listening to my because I’m apparently crazy, and an overthinker) -edit: while watching I also want to add in my thoughts on something Tony said and expand on a part of the conversation. 4:45 also besides the leverage. We also should take into account the additional weight. And the fact that those two things decrease the brakes ability to stop, however the amount of distance vehicle covers is increased with each and every revolution of the taller wheel/tire.

@Levibetz

8 ай бұрын

@@Hipsters_N_Hippies Ehhhh, part of engineering is knowing when things aren't an issue. If the engine drains oil well, no reason to fix that, if the stock radiator can handle more power, no reason to fix that, etc. Wheels too, yeah lighter is better, but it's really a very minor thing in the grand scheme of things and a heavy wheel likely is not making your car unsafe. Brakes are important because they are critical to the safety of the vehicle and you can literally make them worse left while bolting on "upgrades".

@geraldscott4302

7 ай бұрын

I still recommend using disc brakes in front. But do it right. Discs have more stopping power than drums. You need to change the proportioning valve. Cars came from the factory with front discs and rear drums for decades. And it worked, because they did it right. I have a 1972 Pinto wagon that came with MANUAL disc brakes up front. It came with a 2.0L four cylinder engine, which I swapped out for a 289 V8 out of a 1967 Falcon. That changed a lot of things. Yes I got more power. But I also got more weight over the front wheels. That made the car nose heavy. It affected handling and braking. I put slightly stronger springs and shocks with better compression and rebound damping on it. I eventually converted it to power front discs. It was better, but still handled differently than it did with the little four cylinder engine. I couldn't use larger front discs, because it has 13" front wheels, and they wouldn't fit. I've been driving it for several years that way, with no problems. I simply learned how to drive it properly with the differences the engine swap caused. It will never feel like it did when it was new, but I'm not giving up the V8 to get better handling, because going fast in a straight line is mostly what I wanted it to do. The handling and braking are still well within the safe range when driven in a normal manner. Everything is a compromise. All new cars are/were compromises, designed for normal drivers. If you are not a normal driver, and want to make the car what you want it to be, you have to remember that ANYTHING YOU GAIN IN ONE AREA, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE SOMEWHERE ELSE. Make sure that is going to be acceptable.

I'm damn near 60 & between all the magazine articles I read, car shows I watched on tv and later YT vids I seen nobody has ever addressed this issue. Thx Tony you could have saved us gearheads countless amounts of money back in the day.. then again we're a stubborn bunch of adrenaline junkies..✌️

MoPar was always generous with their brake area, GM & Ford, not so much; and Steve Mags pointed this out to us dozens of times in his Junkyard Crawl series. And I can't wait to see him tell us again!

@DerwoodPFreen

8 ай бұрын

Mopar really skimped on the brake area of Dakotas and Durangos. They don't stop worth a shit!

@greenbassboosts8872

8 ай бұрын

Yes this is why w body fans often upgrade their brakes with parts from newer GM like the impala... They recognized their brakes were a little undersized. They bolt right on lol

Some of my buddies in high school learned the hard way when they put the 38’s and 44’s on their 4x4’s in the early 80’s. Fun in the mud but you couldn’t slow down normally on the road.

@AtZero138

8 ай бұрын

My simple understanding of it... Leverage,, like how a Breaker Bar works,, tire is now taller,, or further away from the rotor still attempting to stop..

@albertgaspar627

8 ай бұрын

@@AtZero138 and its the weight of the extra material in the larger rim

@AtZero138

8 ай бұрын

@@albertgaspar627 of course,,

@car_ventures

8 ай бұрын

@@AtZero138 yep, a taller tyre puts more torque against the brake friction surface. One of the reasons (of a few) that performance brake uprgades offer better braking, is simoly because the diameter of the brake disc is larger than stock, making it apply more leverage against the wheel... It effectively reduces the ratio between the braking surface and the moving surface. It's also one (again of several)reasons that modern cars have larger wheels; in order to accommodate a larger brake disc. The overall tyre diameter is typically unchanged but the brake disc is larger.

@ryurc3033

8 ай бұрын

Same applies to chrome 24s....the weight and leverage really hurt braking. So much more than people even realize.

The only thing I changed on my 87 Diplomat police package was the Lean Burn system. I replaced all the broken or rusted parts with correct factory spec. Parts. I really love how you mentor people in depth. I am 74 years old, and have been a car guy since I was 14 years old. Kudos for your ability to teach the reasons why systems work, and why they matter.

@raycollishaw673

7 ай бұрын

I drove that car as a taxi backin 88/89. Loved it.

@Ihateutubecontextandsensorshit

7 ай бұрын

Ran an 88' on 30" wheels, very mad max with the roof cutoff

These tech tutorials are the best. No one thinks cause and effect when they modify things. Towing is something many simply don't understand as I've witnessed many times on the road.

When it comes to hot rodding a post emissions control engine, you're not outsmarting the engineers, you're outsmarting the EPA. 😉

@NBSV1

8 ай бұрын

It’s more about not getting caught. With most cars it’s pretty easy to throw a tune at it and you can change about anything. Or, can go full aftermarket ECM. But, unless it’s been through the certification process basically anything different from stock isn’t legal.

@oops1952

8 ай бұрын

A lot of guys with later '70's cars would take off SOME of the emission stuff and make it run even worse....All or nothing is best

@MrTheHillfolk

8 ай бұрын

Hey as long as I can still send my ecu to canada for a tune on my 99 jetta vr6 and have it pass the rediness check here in ny, ill be happy but yeah I usually stick with the pre 96 stuff to avoid the hassle. Love my 79 with a diesel,its totally exempt and I can roll coal as I desire 😂😂😂😂

@lilmike2710

8 ай бұрын

@@NBSV1 one of many reasons that I love living in Alabama 😁

@VinnyMartello

8 ай бұрын

Well said.

One of Chrysler's main engineers, whose name escapes me, remarked that the difference in stroke between the 198 c.i. slant six and the 225--barely a fraction of an inch--made a large difference in the tuning and carburetion. I would've thought it would make little or no difference at all. Small innocent changes from stock can entail big problems to be solved.

@fastinradfordable

8 ай бұрын

Your mom said a fraction of an inch of a stroke made a huge difference too😮

@anthonyanderson1479

8 ай бұрын

​@@fastinradfordable🤙

@autonomous_collective

8 ай бұрын

Small changes in stock can also fix/improve many things. Especially with new improved parts.

@rcnelson

8 ай бұрын

Not bad, coming from a guy born from his mom's backfire.@@fastinradfordable

@josephhalexander

8 ай бұрын

@@fastinradfordable Was that trip really necessary? Anyway, to be fair, I'd rather be Cummin' than Powerstroked.

I changed to disk brakes on the rear of my 83 Firebird. I changed the whole rear end out of an 88 Iroc Z. Junkyard upgrade from another factory made Thirdgen. Still stock but an "upgrade" overall gaining limited slip, disk and rear sway bar. Bolts in, done. No re-engineering the engineers.

@ssnerd583

8 ай бұрын

...unless you didnt change the master cylinder AND proportioning valve you DID re-engineer the engineers

@MrTheHillfolk

8 ай бұрын

Me and the VW boys have been doing this on mk1/2 vws since they hit tbe road. It's the safest best pre-engineered upgrades you can do is to swap the good stuff from better models as long as you use the total system.

@mexicanspec

8 ай бұрын

It is funny you went through all that expense when the rear do very little braking at higher speeds.

@robertcampbell5485

7 ай бұрын

Did this guy just not understand the message?

@user-zj5in4hg7w

5 ай бұрын

@@mexicanspec Man i think people also forget that self adjusting rear drums are very low maintenance. Why would I want to bother changing rear brake pads and sliders when I can just forget about my drums.

My pops always preached “keep it stock for a daily.” Only took my 30 years of driving to finally give in and admit he was right all along. .

@MrTheHillfolk

8 ай бұрын

Same on the 30 , yup I consider the wife's car the daily, and I leave that alone for the most part. My situation,I don't live but 2mi from work so I've had some junk I drive besides the 2-3 fun cars I have. My junk car was shot, I've been using the nice cars all summer but it's time to park em. Basically I'll drive whatever to get to work ,and use the wife's car to go anywhere else. Edit:she gets to work from home ,so her car is my winter beater 😂

Radial tires vs. bias plies? Who hasn't upgraded their 60s/70s car to radial tires?

@bcbloc02

8 ай бұрын

Probably only the people nostalgic for that tire cry everytime they go around a turn! LOL

Great video. Steering, suspension, and brakes seem simple, but are easy to mess up.

Spot on, Uncle Tony. My dad was an engineer for GM in the 50's and 60's. As kids messing with cars he asked us if we knew more than the engineers who designed them. he said the same thing as you: don't mess with the safety systems on the vehicles. But at the same time, don't go faster than the brakes can stop you. And as a suggestion: as a "classic car" for a daily driver, the 1998/99 Buick Riviera is hard to beat. Yeah, it isn't fast, but was not designed to be. If you wantcomfort, reliability and parts availability, they are hard to beat. Avoid the 97 and earlier for several reasons. I drive mine on 2000 mile road trip vacations every summer and just love it.

One thing that I do believe in changing is the brake master cylinder.. If it has the old single reservoir single outlet master cylinder, I believe in updating it to a dual master cylinder for safety reasons.

@rhekman

8 ай бұрын

Conveniently, Tony's rule of thumb with "interstate era" cars also coincides with dual master brakes.

@rocktoonzz

8 ай бұрын

@@rhekmanvery true, but I do agree with upgrading the master cylinder and distribution block for safety reasons. It's not a performance thing, it's a failure issue. If you lose a line or cylinder on one wheel, with a single reservoir you lose all braking. With a dual, you still have enough to stop safely, albeit maybe not as stable, until you can fix the issue.

@todddenio3200

8 ай бұрын

@@rhekman he said 1962 and newer... Dual master cylinders started in either 66 or 67 for most cars. I updated the master cylinder on my 63 Dodge from a single to a dual master cylinder last summer

@jamesgeorge4874

8 ай бұрын

​@@todddenio32001964 is when the law stated '65 and newer cars were to implement them, by 1967 model year.

@nathanmortenson914

8 ай бұрын

True I had a 65 Chevelle with a single. It ended up being the down fall of the car. But like he said upgrade the whole system. The 66 went to a duel master cylinder what was basically the same car.

Very good explanation Tony. Some people will upgrade the brakes with no knowledge of cause and effect. They actually make a safe car dangerous because the upgrade causes the brakes to grab so well they lock the tires up and make the car skid out of control on a hard panic brake. A dual master cylinder set up properly to replace a single cylinder master cylinder, meaning no real upgrade other than safety, so you would still have either front or rear brakes instead of absolutely no brakes should a line pop or wheel cylinder blow out, a person may want to consider that. Great job of explaining this. So many people mess up cars due to being short on knowledge but with good intentions.

I put drilled and slotted rotors on the front of my 96 Buick Roadmaster sedan. But I also upgraded the rear shoes at the same time. I drove it for years stock, and it didn't stop good enough for my driving style. After the upgrade, these last few years have been much better

Tony, good to see more daily driver stuff. Please keep it up. I enjoy the hot rod stuff even if I never do it. But the daily driver stuff, like your old How To videos (like the valve job video) is what keeps me a dedicated viewer. Three or four vids of fun stuff I will never do followed by one that applies to my classic car goals keeps me locked in. RRRoooooLLL up Your WindOOOOOWWS!

@matthewgaul8197

8 ай бұрын

Roll up your windows 😂😂 good times

There have been times when engineers had to do what they were told not what was right. For example I had a 1970 Dodge Coronet 500 it's front suspension was garbage the Ball joints tie rods were way too small for a vehicle that big and heavy. I lived in a place that winter would destroy the roads , when I was delivering Pizza with that car I was replacing the Tie rods several times a year , and the ball joints 1-2 times a year 😮 I had extra tie rod ends in my trunk and the tools needed to replace them on the fly. It was like owning an old Harley that shook itself apart lol. Unfortunately there were no aftermarket companies I knew of back then that made stronger parts for the old Dodge I just had to deal with it. Now some of the other mods actually made the car drive and handle better than stock. Like the Edelbrock intake, the black jack headers , the Holly 650 double pumper carb.. my mileage went up 5-6 mpg. and down a little if I used the extra power I now had. It was a very reliable daily driver except for those darn OEM suspension parts.

As I've said before ,, when the simple question arrives,, why do you have Reverse thread on the left side of the Car,, Chrysler had a Missile Division... @∅

Hold on there bro, they build to the minimal unit cost. Hence the first generation of a car is most likely to have undersized brakes. One of mine comes with 266mm discs and then in the 2nd gen they upped them to 280mm discs due to repeated warping of the front brakes. This is stock. I have since fixed this, fronts are 320mm units to reduce any chance of brake fade and over heating.

Thank you or this video, I think that might have been my question from the Wednesday live chat. I'm looking to daily drive my 1966 CDV. Go Army!

Everybody knows aftermarket disc brake swaps are the way to go no matter what! You don't know what you're talking about. 😂 Love the video tony great advise. Never stop producing quality content

@mexicanspec

8 ай бұрын

Big Brakes has made people think that.

I don’t completely agree. What you’ve got in the final product isn’t necessarily what the engineers would have liked to produce. Price margins and government regulations de-optimized a lot of what we could have had. There’s ALWAYS room for improvement.

@hecanseeme8210

8 ай бұрын

Exactly. Price is the first element of auto design. Otherwise every car would be a Ferrari. I think this vid actually made me dumber.

@charlesness3435

7 ай бұрын

I put CPP disc brakes on my stock '66 Chevy C10 pickup. I also put power boost assist and modulator so I could balance front to back braking. Made a HUGE difference and felt much safer to drive. Some folks have to change their wheel and tire size to be able to buy new tires too as old sizes have been discontinued.

@bobmcdougal7501

7 ай бұрын

Zachary yebo. Man, I like Tony, but it took restraint to watch this video all the way thru.

Best advice ever. For most cars most of the time, if you want to drive it on the road in traffic, you should not be doing these "upgrades,:" especally not willy-nilly. So much of it is done because, well, "reasons." They don't even know why they are doing it, they just do it. You are almost certainly making the car worse in at least some conditions.

@lilmike2710

8 ай бұрын

What about those kids with the "squatted" rear end pickup trucks? Or whatever they call those abominations. And whenever I see someone with ridiculously huge wheels and I know it can't be safe. Not to mention that it looks re-gd-diculous.

@treelineresearch3387

8 ай бұрын

Mods really just come down to aesthetics for a lot of people, even to the point of spending thousands of dollars in pursuit of making their shi tbox car or truck undriveable.

@tarstarkusz

8 ай бұрын

@@treelineresearch3387 Ain't that the truth. They do *really* dumb things like tire stretching on the wrong size rim for the car (and the wrong size tire for the rim), rims they spent a fortune on.

I replaced the trailing arm assembly in my 74 corvette because I thought the wheel bearings were going bad and they are next to impossible to replace. Over $1000 dollars later and lots of swearing it turned out that the squealing noise I heard was just the positraction, it had the wrong fluid in it. Oops.

@AtZero138

8 ай бұрын

Honestly,, the true and real car lover has respect for..

@hickeyskustomresto

8 ай бұрын

Sadly.....some version of that has happened to most of us. Good thing we love these mechanical contraptions

@greenbassboosts8872

8 ай бұрын

I was planning to drop the pan off the 300 i6 in my van (not easy to do) to check all the rods and for piston slap thinking I had a knock. I had already pulled the inspection plate for the trans and checked for cracks in flex plate and loose bolts.... Checked exhaust manifolds with my camera. Two months I eventually discovered it was the smog air injection tube broke. Lol. I didn't really know that was a thing until I did some research

I mostly agree with you. However for one of my cars Ford came out with a better braking system for a limited production version. I converted my car to it. It's MUCH better than stock. Another car I have, two model years later Ford gave it front disc brakes. That's an upgrade I have for it. (including the master cylinder, proportioning valve, etc) So there is improvement that's available because engineers also have to consider cost. And the cost limits have to do with market demands, what competition is offering, etc. There's tons of modifications like this out there. Original engineering intent can be preserved by simply paying attention to what was changed between sub models and model years. Often it's not much.

@williamcole464

8 ай бұрын

Very insightful, you are on the money. Study the year to year upgrades, and make sure you have all the changes needed for the correct result.

@treelineresearch3387

8 ай бұрын

Yeah in a perfect world engineers would only be engineering for purpose, but cost optimization is a very real and very big part of engineering. I wouldn't even really consider upgrading equipment to a better option level to be a "mod" on the same level as hacking in a completely different system or installing something aftermarket, since it's a manufacturer-designed package.

14:58 I know this one! The rear brakes on your disk swapped A body lock up prematurely and you go sliding sideways toward any parked cars, ditches, or living creatures that might be in your path. Ahhhh, memories…

The brakes are a non issue when it comes to using an XJ for a tow vehicle. The brakes are... adequate. It's the weight (or lack there of), the high center of gravity, and the short wheelbase that make the XJ an impractical at best and dangerous at worst tow vehicle. Before you know it the tail is wagging the dog, and that can get you into trouble pretty quick.

@hecanseeme8210

8 ай бұрын

Doesn’t happen if you properly load your trailer.

@MaxNafeHorsemanship

8 ай бұрын

You blame the vehicle characteristics for being a poor choice for a tow vehicle. I blame the driver. I use a Ferd Explorer for a tow pig. Short and famous for rolling. Never had a problem and I am on my third one over 20 years. Same size engine as the XJ and maybe less HP. In my world, the XJ is an excellent choice. I have towed stock trailers, horse trailers. car trailers and camper trailers. Of course my little utility trailer as well. Knowing how to tow safely is important no matter the vehicle you are driving. People die every year because they think they can just hook on to a trailer and don't understand what is involved to do it safely.

@garycrawford6912

8 ай бұрын

Agreed,my brother in law was pulling a heavy load with an old 4x4 Cherokee and it pushed the jeep through the woods like to never got the jeep out of the trees

@MaxNafeHorsemanship

8 ай бұрын

@@garycrawford6912 If your trailer brakes work properly, they will stop all of the extra weight you are pulling. Most places have laws as to how much you can pull without brakes on the trailer, and it isn't much. If the trailer pushed him off the road, he was going too fast or had inadequate trailer brakes. Again, driver error, not the vehicle.

It’s the same the other way around too…in taking off from a stop or even accelerating while moving… it’ll take more effort..or force with the larger tires than with the smaller stock tires…although you would have an increase in speed at the same rpm with the larger tires…along with slightly better fuel mileage…

Best advice on the WEB..... I could not agree more!! In a lot of states, who have a state inspection, most all modifications are illegal.

I watched a buddy of mine almost have brake failure by upgrading a cam because it couldnt make enough vacuum. Never in my life if I hadnt seen it would I have believed it. Fox Body lessons....

@mexicanspec

8 ай бұрын

That doesn't make sense. vacuum doesn't change anything in the braking system other than making the pedal easier to depress.

@octanejimmy

8 ай бұрын

@@mexicanspec Thats exactly what I thought.... Its not so much a failure, bad wording. The car basically pushed itself through its own brakes from low manifold pressure to the booster. Thats how it was explained to me.

You are an amazing encyclopedia of esoterica. Love this channel!!!!

What the heck were the engineers considering or failing to consider when they designed the steering of the Jeep Cherokee? That death wobble is just lovely when parts get a bit worn. Other vehicles merely get some play in the steering.

Great video Tony, I never thought of some of the things you touched on concerning disc brake conversions. For example, when you said that factory disc brake cars can have smaller drums in the rear than an all drum car. So applying that cause and affect logic, during an emergency stop situation, a bigger drum in the rear might cause the back tires to lock up and possibly throw the car sideways. I never considered brake line diameter and master cylinder differences either. Thanks for going over these important aspects.

This man is INTERNATIONAL treasure

I will say one of the most fun, reliable daily drivers i had over the years was a 92 honda civic si hatchback. It had a 1994 twin cam b18 a1(stock) and the short ratio transmission with a limited slip.(but still stock) It had tein coilovers that were set up with proper preload, and not ridiculously low, it also had poly bushings, and the stock acura 4 wheel disc brakes from a 1996 Integra. It had 17 inch wheels, but they were super light. And really didnt ride all that bad. It would get 40 mpg, and since pretty much everything in the drivetrain was stock honda parts, reliability wasnt a concern. That thing was a good little car, that would absolutely frighten people with how capable it was in a corner. I constantly got pulled over in that thing. cops hated it, my neighbors hated it, it was a blast.

On my chrysler forward look car, The only brake "mods" that i have done are, drilling the backing plate with small 3/8 holes to allow the brake dust/heat/gas build up to escape, and some steel braided brake hoses. The modification manifested in more effective stopping distance and minimal brake fade. But i totally left the mechanical side of the brake system alone, wouldn't want it for it to NOT stop eh?

@AtZero138

8 ай бұрын

I thought about doing this also.. just some small holes,, 3/8" good choice.. 👍

@samhicks97

8 ай бұрын

@@AtZero138 Give it a go, have not had any issues in wet torrential downpour weather, the holes also let the water escape and the hot brake drum and back plate will evaporate any water present anyway.

@AtZero138

8 ай бұрын

@@samhicks97 just makes sense.. even vintage Race Cars eventually had some ducting to cool them down.. cheers from Huntington Beach CA 🇺🇸.. Daily Driver 68 Dart

@samhicks97

8 ай бұрын

@@AtZero138 nice one, The reliable steed that I made the mods are on a 64' Dodge custom 880, more of a splice of early forward look designed cars like Virgil exner cars.

@samhicks97

8 ай бұрын

@@AtZero138 forgot to mention, interesting mod that I resisted doing was drilling the Drums on a brake drum system, this is a known brake mod back in the 50's but has a drawback. Drums are able to dissipate heat better more closely like disc brakes, but the holes in the drum have a chance of cracking/fracturing in high heat situations and spreading to other holes like a spiders web. I believe the drilled backing plates is a good compromise.

I kind of want to revert my truck to factory height and tire size, I'm not plowing snow and the only sort of offroading I do is forest roads. It's not unmanageable on the highway as-is, but I know it could be a lot less boaty if the suspension geometry wasn't as setup for offroad (assuming the Last Guy set it up for anything specific other than the aesthetic).

Great video. I agree with the points you've discussed, that being said though, however smart or brilliant the engineers were, the absolute parameter of their engeering skills were totally dependant on the technology of the day.

That is the best argument I've heard for keeping stock brakes in my entire life. And I have several pre-freeway cars that are all on stock brake systems with a self adjustment upgrade on most of them. I tried to say something like that on Facebook one time and learned my lesson 🤣🤣 Get em uncle Tony!

As always great advice that’s thought through, from a gear head for a gear head! Thanks Tony, every video is a gold nugget! Cheers, mate👍

Wow is this an eyeopener! Thank you Tony for taking the time to explain this to us.

Hey Uncle Tony, do you think you could make a video on painting headers? Everytime I've tried painting my own headers, I've seen a beautiful coat of white paint turn yellow and crack like my teeth after only the first heat cycle or two. I know I'm not alone on this; any insight is appreciated. Thanks, and have a good one.

@grand73am

8 ай бұрын

Eastwood Company and POR-15 have header and exhaust manifold paint that holds up and looks good for quite a while. The heat cures them. Sandblasting the headers first creates the ideal surface for good paint adhesion. Even this paint will eventually degrade in appearance, but never had it crack. Having (or buying) the headers ceramic coated is the best way to go for longevity and appearance.

Let’s not also forget the ease of replacement parts. Yes an auto parts store might not have classic parts on the shelf anymore, but it’s much less complicated to get/order suspension and brake parts for a stock old car, than it is for something that has a lowered suspension or an aftermarket disc brake conversion. Great advice UT!

Very good content Tony! I'm working through the same details on my old cj that I converted to front discs years ago and never drove afterward. Just getting back to working on it and thinking very hard about just what you're talking about.

I think that brake upgrading the whole braking system, as well as the steering system on any car is a plus factor. Is but absolutely necessary, absolutely not for normal driving conditions, but it is certainly a much better driving experience for anyone who drives even for a daily driver.

Excellent article! So much physics involved. I needed to hear this, as I just bought a 1955 ford Fairlane (Resrto-Mod). Thanks.

I have a 30 year old Honda Civic that came with power steering, vacuum assisted front disc, rear drum brakes and 175/70/13 tires on skinny 13 inch steel wheels. I put a set of 205/50/15 tires on a set of factory 15 inch Acura Integra wheels, along with a slightly larger diameter brake master cylinder and I no longer use the vacuum assist for the brakes or the power assist for the steering. It sounds like I ruined my daily, but for me, it made it a TON better drive and even better on fuel. It is such a light weight car, power assist is not needed for the brakes or steering. I love it.

@fastinradfordable

8 ай бұрын

My 1981 vw rabbit with a tdi swap is similar to yours Except mine actually makes torque. And gets twice the mpg😂

@Carstuff111

7 ай бұрын

@@fastinradfordable Well, you can be smug about your torque and MPG, but my little D15B7 16 valve, 1.5 liter gasoline 4 cylinder in my 2,380 pound 1992 Honda Civic DX sedan, with its 102HP and 98 Ib-ft of torque (when it was new, it does have 302,000+ miles on it now and was abused when I bought the car 10 years ago with 235,000) coupled with the 5 speed manual transmission from a 1993 Honda Civic VX hatchback and its 3.25:1 final drive got me 50 miles per gallon without trying on my way to a friend's house and back on one of my favorite stretches of road. I am pretty happy with that, and the car can do 75 miles per hour all day long on the interstate turning about 2,600 to 2,800 RPM at the engine (vs 3,300-3,400 RPM with the original 5 speed the car came with) I just hate how much crap has been scattered by stupid people on the interstates in my area and I am not willing to damage my car on parts from other vehicles. And while yes, I did manage 52 MPG in a VW Jetta sedan back around the time Diesel Gate happened, I can literally fix my entire Civic with a handful of tools and my mileage is plenty high for a gas burner.

Tony you are spot on! When I was young and stupid I patched the brake lines on a 1973 Olds wagon with disc brakes on front and drum on rear by eliminating the proportioning valve. Brakes worked fine at slow speeds, but at 50 mph a slight touch of the pedal locked up the rear brakes like in a panic stop! I put the brakes back with the proportioning valve and they worked fine!

Great advice! As an engineer, I know not to reverse engineer anything. I just don't have the design or testing information that the manufacturer has, and I'd prefer not to die in a crash because I wanted fancy rims.

Tony, I followed all your advice and directions on start up of a new build and my 455 that I built over the last year fired up as expected and ran in just perfect. Thanks.

More people need to hear this message for sure. I'll be sharing it on Twitter. It seems so common that people get their classic car and then try to turn it into something it's not. If you want a modern Camaro buy modern Camaro. Trying to turn a 69 Camaro into a 2010 Camaro is unbelievably expensive and difficult. These old cars work just fine the way they were. I daily a 69 Nova and a 76 K20 that only have very mild modifications

@dyer2cycle

8 ай бұрын

Amen...if you want modern, buy modern...

This is probably the best video you've done.i agree completely. I've been a brakes and suspension specialist for 40+ years,working on everything from production cars to building pro street and drag chassis for people. Until you understand everything involved in how a system operates, don't try to reinvent the wheel.

I had a 79 powerwagon, spent 5 years restoring it, I replaced all the brakes front to back, all factory replacement parts. I put a 4” lift kit and 33x12.5 tires on it and oh man it had a hard time stopping those bigger heavier tires with the stock brake setup, I didn’t do any tailgating cause if the person in front of me hit their brakes before I did I was not going to win.

Awesome advice. The other thing is satisfaction (and cost to market), the smile on my face when I see my 6 pot/drilled rotors. My car also stops like a ninja having a seizure. I'm going from 17 inch to 19 inch wheels and upgrading the engine down the track, that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it!

Great points. Brakes, in terms of upgrading within a chassis family requires a comprehensive change to account for the upgrade. It’s not just the brakes.

I love it. Thank you for the knowledge drop. This is so valuable.

Uncle Tony, the thinking man's car guy ! Few consider such details, this guy knows what most ignore !

That’s the way I see a daily driver and if your going to own a classic daily driver then like it left the Factory is best Great Advice! Glad to see someone give truth and great info ‼️

Same thing applies to making a ground pounder street car. Big engine small body low gears fat tires, maybe raked to clear. You can be riding in a coffin and not know it ... Been there, got the insurance claims to prove (when I was younger). It's also why the folks who bought a stout package vs built one often time won on the street. Their engineering package was well thought out. But, just for fun, if the conditions were right, the built car would do the deed 😁

This is the first class content I follow you for Uncle Tony! I daily a ‘65 Valiant and it’s bone stock except for bigger wheels. I have never thought about the leverage difference of a bigger wheel, however I am a big proponent of keeping it stock (I bought the car with the bigger wheels though).

i didn't know that Uncle Tony about tires and breaks thanks, guy

I agree with you to the point that the cigar chomping executives tell the smart engineers to get fucked and don't figure in safety as a cost/benefit analysis. Them stop fast parts, telescoping columns and seatbelts are expensive...

Thank you Tony 💯💯💯💯💯% I hope the kids are listening. You may have just saved a couple of lives with this vid. Perfect example of the Butterfly Effect in action.

Great topic of conversation I just went through all of this on my brakes for my 1972 plymouth satelitte. It had the stock proportioning valve that went bad ended up changing the master cylinder and now it stops good.. thanks Tony

As another commenter wrote, these tutorials are great! Thanks Uncle Tony!!!🇺🇸

Very interesting stuff. Never did a disc brake conversion, but then again, never thought of all the points you brought up.

Good video. My pops used to run 1/5 mile B+ modified production with his daily 69' camaro (new at the time) and he spent many an hour during the 70's having to chase the perverbial broken butterfly down to get to work during the week. As a life long gearhead and heavy equipment mechanic he spared no subtlety in his advice to me. ..." leave it alone! Don't play with your daily" "Failure follows the next weakest part in line" And another nugget, closely related to Uncle Tony's point...."you can build a car to do one specific thing, really well on a cheap budget. It starts hitting your wallet when you want it to do multiple things"

Great video and so true. I was an automotive engineer for many years and cringe when I see some of the things people do to "upgrade" their cars. One thing I would tell people to upgrade on an old brake system though is the master cylinder if it has a single reservoir design, strictly from a safety aspect. Most cars have a direct replacement dual pot design available and no one likes that feeling of the fade on one pump and no pedal on the second if you blow a brake line. I around town drive a 48 Chrysler Windsor with a single pot master and no replacement dual pot is available because the pedal pivot hole is built into the master, I have thought about making a new mounting bracket so I can run an 80's Chrysler master.

If you are new to the hobby you should take this video to heart. Solid advice if you just want to enjoy the drive.

Your information is spot on Tony! I worked at a brake shop in the 80's and 90's in Sydney, back then machining was the norm rather than replacing drums and rotors. We offered different grades of pads/shoes but never modified braking systems for exactly the reasons you state, with just two exceptions.....a track car OR increasing the booster size on known poor braking vehicles so pedal effort was reduced but the rest of the system was just repaired to manufacturer specs.

A BIG Thank You, Tony! Your explanation of how the leverage works when putting on larger diameter wheels or tires is something I have been trying to tell anyone who will listen for many years (about 50 years or so). You could have pointed out that the larger wheels/tires will also affect acceleration and gas mileage. I know we all hate engineers, but sometimes they really do know what they are doing!

This is the stuff that makes me happy that I bucked the prevailing wisdom when I rebuilt the brakes on my '66 Fury. I just redid everything with stock replacement parts (the only exception being that I installed a '67 drum brake master for the dual reservoir), and I'm completely satisfied with the braking performance. I've never once been in a situation where I wondered if the car was going to stop in time. I've really grown to appreciate Tony's attitudes about leaving a daily driver basically stock. As much as the 20-year-old me would have been disappointed with not modifying everything to within an inch of its life, the slightly older, marginally wiser me has figured out that these are pretty good cars from the factory, and as Tony said, I'm probably not smarter than the engineers who designed them.

I think this is great advice, I even said best advice ever in a different comment. However, I do take issue with one aspect of what you said and that is money. Cost was a major consideration the engineers took into consideration when designing the system. Not only cost, but manufacturing feasibility. They had to manufacture all the parts. If something was better, but cost 5 times as much to make because it require new machine tooling or new machines, a compromise would be made. The engineers were given a list of specifications and to make it happen at X cost per car. Cost was a major consideration. Though it might be a dumb assumption on my part, I assume the people who make conversion kits also have to take the entire system into consideration and require all the changes that would have to be made. So they are probably not going to sell you a disc conversion kit for use with the existing master cylinder that doesn't meet specifications. Like they are probably going to say "in order to change the brakes to disc, you need to replace all of the following components" where they know what the pedal ratio should be and that the brake lines will need to be resized or where a new master cylinder is needed. Otherwise, people will be killed and lawsuits will be filed.

@treelineresearch3387

8 ай бұрын

They also share quite a few parts because it usually doesn't make sense to design something like a whole new brake caliper specific to a model, unless that model is the first of new platform (and that part will eventually be shared) or otherwise has special requirements. Most likely the part chosen by the engineer was not completely optimal for the task in a pure engineering sense, but it was optimal in terms of the requirements versus cost and availability.

@tarstarkusz

8 ай бұрын

@@treelineresearch3387 Yes. Shared parts was and is a cost saving measure which imposes limitations on design. But even though they won't always be optimal, they will be "good enough" and meet the requirements of the system. Like they would say "well, it would be nice and perfect if we could design this new part, but this existing one meets 99% of that perfection"

I'm glad you made this video, I spend much of each week trying to explain to customers that hot air intakes, exhaust mods and much larger tires and wheels will speed up wear and tear, hurt economy and slow their vehicle down. They always claim to know better. Yet many are complainging about expensive repairs or poor drivability not long after. Larger tires changes gear ratios, adds to rolling resistance, braking force needed, bearing load and many other things... Louder intake and exhaust does not usually mean more power, unless other things are done to correct the tune... It's a long list of potential issues created by "mods.".

Great info Uncle Tony! You make several strong educated points from your own experience. Im a believer in your way of thinking. Your A Brother from another mother. Thank you for taking us to automotive engineering school!

the rubber to stainless steel brake hose is a great little upgrade i like to do first and then the lines and fuel lines

@likemagic_kiwi

8 ай бұрын

They make the pedal firmer, but if you don’t have abs it is harder to modulate the brake pressure when you are on the limit of lockup

@witnesszer0

7 ай бұрын

I use my big toe and i dont drive fast at all@@likemagic_kiwi

Great video, thanks uncle Tony!

If'n I was fixin' to tow with that jeep at capacity I think I'd be converting (if it's not already) the trailer to electric brakes and using a weight-distributing hitch. If you read the Jeep specs and the hitch specs it may already require it? Electric brakes work better for one thing, next if the trailer gets squirrely you can trailer brake and straighten out. The weight distributing or platform hitch will keep your car level and tow so much better. I used to shun such things now I see the genius of them...

Ahhh , So there is a reason why they put drum brakes on the back of most early model pickups

When I was an apprentice I worked with a guy who said the exact same thing . I would keep suggesting things that could have been designed / worked better , he would reply by saying that someone got paid thousands to design it , why did I think my 5 minutes of thought would be better ?

@hondaatcfreak420

8 ай бұрын

Cause they got paid to make it harder for someone to work on. 😂

I really appreciate your videos and knowledge. They have been a great help to me.

I had a 5K lb trailer behind my Class C RV. Those things are usually running right at their gross weight before you start towing. Well, I was motoring along and I ran over a tree branch. Somehow it unplugged the trailer. Next thing you know I'm going 40MPH down a hill with a stop sign at the bottom. Holy Moly those were some exciting seconds.

@bdi11000

8 ай бұрын

gator got him!

You are correct about all of the things that will have to be taken in to considerations like the proportion valve, the drum or disc ,the brake pedal on the car for the pivoting point.

As old as I am, I still learn new things. Thank you, Uncle Tony.

This video cements how much of a genius Uncle Tony is :)

Lovely, nice set of drums all round and your pistons fitted arse about face, pure genius 😂

The Jeep information, Bravo Tony ! I said on here in the past that I am a jeep guy. I have towed with many Jeeps with the longer wheelbase of 112 inches. Any of the jeeps with the inline 6 cylinder and the longer wheelbase can tow 6500 lbs , but need to be the right kit. You need to be running the stock wheel and tire combo or 1 size down . You need to be making use of a weight distribution hitch for tongue weight distribution and to help with anti sway. You need to be making use of an adjustable brake controller and good electric brakes on the trailer. I had a guy walk up to me amazed one day and started questioning me about my rig. I was towing a half ton truck on a car hauler behind my jeep. He thought that was backward and had never seen that before. I told him that it was perfectly able to do it but that you never tow in overdrive and you drive according to conditions. I also never modified the stock build except for an oversized external engine oil cooler and transmission oil cooler. Otherwise I was running 225 tires instead of 235 tires on the stock rims with the air psi set to max for load capacity.

Another great video. You got me thinking.

Your comments on drum vs disc brakes are spot on. People think disc brakes are superior in every way. All things equal, drum brakes provide better clamping force, which is why they are still common on big trucks. Discs are superior for shedding heat and precise braking force modulation, which is why they are used on sports cars and race cars.

I agree with you Tony. However some upgrades can be done to a classic car if you do your research and choose carefully the modifications you do. When I bought my 1964 Galaxie it came stock with manual drum brakes. I am a very careful driver when I'm out driving and I avoid crowded roads and interstate traffic if at all possible but even then the 1964 technology just scared me. I did a lot of research and stayed within the Ford engineering train of thought. My solution led me to upgrade using later model disc brake engineering using a combination of LTD and Lincoln parts in the whole system. I did not piece all of this together using aftermarket parts. The master cylinder, pedal ratio, power booster, line sizes, rear drums ,combination valve all remained the same and the complete system was transferred to my car. The result is a braking system which stops like a modern car. Best part is everything is affordable and available at your local parts store. Also, my wife is a good driver but I would not toss her the keys and feel safe with the old drum brakes.

Good on you Tony, everyone overlooks this fact.

Such a great video as always, drum brakes for the win!

Rear drums on my 89 firebird (factory 305, 15 inch wheels), has the same rear drum brakes as my 82 S-10 (factory 2.8 factory 14 inch wheels)

Depending on the age of the car I'm going to daily drive, I just rebuild the front end, and replace all the bushings, get a set of KYB shocks, then convert to a dual reservoir master, or factory power brake set up, most times I'll switch the carb from a 2 barrel to a 4 barrel, and swap points to HEI or whatever the factory electronic ignition was. Then put dual exhaust on it. The whole point is to get the factory set up as close to perfect as possible, then just do slight factory upgrades for less trouble. It usually turns out to be a great daily driver.

Great explanation on the braking physics, and the issues of commonly done changes on the XJ for example. It is possible for the inertial force of a big wheel/tire combo to tear up the pad support/actuation mechanism. Seemingly a trivial change potentially disastrous. Darn butterfly...

Some vehicles have dual ratings depending if you are running trailer brakes or not.

@michaelmurphy6869

8 ай бұрын

I think it's federal law that any trailer that has a gross weight rating (trailer and cargo weight) of 3500 IBS or higher has to be equipped with a trailer braking system and have at least 2 axles and the brakes to mounted on at least one axle. Higher weight rating may require brakes to be mounted on all axles.

Thanks Tony, some great advice here. I drove a 70 runner, 440 4 spd, standard drum brakes dana 60. I can't count how many times I got. "Oh those drum brakes are dangerous". I had that car 10 years, summer weekend car. never once did I have to change the brakes. Check them all the time. No real wear to speak of. All I said was when I learned to drive we were taught defensive driving. Remember Tony? 1 car length for even 10 MPH.

Great presentation! Reliability is the other BIG factor involved. For daily drivers, modifications many times mean breakdiwns because the rest of the car was not designed for the enhancement.

Yup 100%! I love how four wheel disc brakes feel, and how they dont get surface rust and get grabby after sitting, but would never convert something that didn't come that way. Was taught that years ago, I think possibly by my hot rodder auto shop teacher in high school, that the master cylinder from a all drum, or front disc rear drum car, are different from discs on all four. Think he explained it as the drum side in a disc/drum setup was also delayed a bit to prevent the ass end locking before the front. Spot on about the leverage on the braking system with oversize tires too.