I made an argument in an Enworld forum about how Wotc was drawing the wrong conclusions from their D&D beyond user data, stating that players desperately want to play high level games, but don't have the endurance to reach them. I also stated that there needs to be an offical level 15-20 campaign that is designed to teach DMs who have spent their entire hobby running levels 1-10, how to run a high level campaign. What happened? The developer of the D&D Beyond app jumped into the conversation out of nowhere and got super defensive and dismissed me offhand. Thank you for this video. I feel vindicated. Now, can someone please make the high level campaign book for DMs wanting to go to the next level?

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

This is absolutely true. Every time I see a new 3rd party supplement I am kind of interested until I see the same old 1-9, 1-11, or 1-13. Then I am annoyed. There is a distinct lack of high level content. This also limits WOTC from exploring other planes as they have to scale everything down to lower levels which doesn't make any sense. Extra planar threats are not suitable to a low level party.

@kylas1902

2 жыл бұрын

What's wild about this is they pretty much admit lvl 1-3 maybe even 1-5 is kinda pointless for experienced players. Running both Strahd and Storm kings and those low level encounters (Death house and Triboar) pretty much boil down to "yeah feel free to skip this". Why not start at 5 and move the level cap higher? Players will definitely have PHB and Dmg access. They will know how to make characters. Just do it! Since I homebrew anyway I just skip lvl 1 and 2 and plan on boosting enemies as the approach and bypass the campaign level cap.

@ashleybowers6746

2 жыл бұрын

Vv mkoi mo GoylbyuI

@ADT1995

2 жыл бұрын

@@kylas1902 I start my campaigns with experienced players between levels 5 and 7, but I have started at level 11 before If I have more than one new players I'll run a couple of solo or small group things with the new players outside of the primary campaign at level 2, and then we start at 3 I only ever ran level 1 once in my DMing career, usually I'd say I start at 5 with most of my groups... But in my original group of all experienced players we usually start at 7, but have been known to start as late as level 10

@kylas1902

2 жыл бұрын

@@ADT1995 As an Almost Always DM. I would love to play in one of your campaigns. I tend to run for new or mixed groups with maybe one optimizer. I have run a few lvl 1 campaigns but those were early in the 5e cycle and I was still getting a handle on the system. I don't do that anymore. Even more recently I have started a group with 4/5 newbies to any kind of tabletop. My house rule are giving them max hp for lvl 3 at level 1. This was so I can go ham and not worry about lucky rolls giving me a TPK. If poor tactics and bad rolls combine I remind them that running is an option 😆. After 1 or 2 sessions I level them up. No HP gain. And after a first story arc and a few more sessions it tends to weed out those that were there for a lark and the ones that wanna play have learned the basics. Spellcasters are still struggling a bit but otherwise it has worked well. And I do normal to gain from then on. And in mixed groups experienced with players. The Disappointment of a level 1 start is. A bit mollified by 3x max HP. For pre written campaigns If the pre level 5 stuff is interesting I may run a 1 or 2 shot and push them through as a way of setting the tone and I go from 3-5 with level ups earned "mid dungeon."

Here's a possible work-around: homebrew magic items that DO scale well, and hand them out at those mid levels. Weapons that turn a hit into a crit once per day, then scales up. Find what the player likes to do, and make it more powerful. I gave a life cleric a mace with a pool of healing that augments any healing, and drains that pool. It simultaneously allows me to hit players super hard so he always gets to use it.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

That's good stuff!

@richiecastle460

2 жыл бұрын

Haha, thanks for the compliment. Another thing I did was give a paladin a special weapon that deals 2d8 base damage. As time goes on, that will become 2d10, then 2d12. Another item method is to make simple things use fewer actions. I gave a different paladin a longsword that allows casting a lvl 1 bless as a minor action, so I'm essence he can attack twice, smite, and bless three allies in his first turn. In an average fight (2-3 rounds) he increased his damage 1/3 to 1/2 since he always blesses.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

@@richiecastle460 that, also, is good stuff!

@ryanbritten6784

2 жыл бұрын

And the best part of these items is giving them to an enemy of the party and making them work for it.

@bctsct117

2 жыл бұрын

@@richiecastle460 This sounds awesome. Almost like monk power scaling, but actually interesting

Few years back I was starting a campaign and I presented my players with a choice: 1. Balanced, by the rules, low to mid level campaign, classic medieval feel with magical fey twists 2. Campaign where almost everything is some kind of my stupid homebrew with stupid powers and even rule breaking on my end, but starting them at 14th lvl with plenty of magic items and ability to use leveled up characters from our previous campaigns, with cosy feel of going from multiple layers of Hell straight to Abyss Take a guess which one they chose and talk about to this day?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

14th level

@mesarosmm

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece Bingo!

@donniejefferson9554

2 жыл бұрын

The campaign I talk the most about ended with our barbarian buying a three headed robo dragon and having it kaiju fight a balor while we accidentally committed multiple war crimes with explosives and robo bugs. There was no balance in that game at any point but I've never played a game so memorable

@spkt0r

2 жыл бұрын

Moar Powa!!!!

@pn2294

2 жыл бұрын

@@mesarosmm that’s weird; people seemed to categorically fear high level games

To challenge a high level party, you only have to focus more on dilemmas that call for player ingenuity, rather than character powers. I’m currently running a fantastic 15th level game called Crypt of the Devil Lich. It’s full of dangerous encounters but also traps and spell combinations that call for strategy to win. My group has now completed two 5e campaigns, Descent into Avernus and The Demonplague. They know how to build characters. But we have only done two sessions of Crypt, and they have only completed 4 ROOMS and have had 3 party members die (not a big deal at 15th, but a wake up call for the group regardless). It’s a lesson for all of us about how to approach high level play and I can’t wait to run high level adventures in the future.

@midnightgreen8319

2 жыл бұрын

That's because Goodman Games made it!! Best company making RPG material currently!

Wizards of the Coast Surveys aren't going to be very accurate because of how they conduct them. Starting at level 11 for experienced players makes sense, but I can't count the number of times I have suggested this to people and they ask to start at level one. Good video.

@mke3053

2 жыл бұрын

Make they start a one shot at lv 11 and roll HP without adding CON mod. Low HP gives the feel of fear of a dead character back at higher levels.

@simmonslucas

2 жыл бұрын

@@mke3053 I do this, I allow adding Con on first level only. That HP curve wouldn't have the steep early curve tapering off into an almost asymptote - it would be more linear. They get more powers that need to use more creatively because they don't have such a pool of safety net HP.

@NemisCassander

2 жыл бұрын

@@simmonslucas Just curious, but how many people dump-stat Con at this point?

@negative6442

2 жыл бұрын

You've had people ask to start at level 1? Every group I've played with dreads starting at level 1, most drastically prefer 3 or even 5.

@negative6442

2 жыл бұрын

@@simmonslucas if you do that, adjust enemy hp to match. 5e's health bloat is already a huge problem without it becoming lopsided.

So essentially, horizontal scaling tends to show up later in dnd design? Abilities that actually solve problems you couldn’t before, instead of throwing more numbers with the same thing at something that also has higher numbers. I do especially like the idea story-wise of going straight for big deal enemies and epic threats rather than grinding through local infestations. Sounds pretty fun. I might just start my next game at 10+.

I honestly really enjoy the "low level fantasy". From a narrative point of view i find it much more interesting and compelling to be saving a village and their crops from gnoll raiders or descent into a crypt and be fighting for my life against Zombies and Wights, rather than stepping out of the door and just stomp on some dragons and literal gods all the time.

@priestesslucy3299

Жыл бұрын

I think that 'all the time' is the key. Threats and challenges for high level characters don't pop up every month unless the GM transitions them to a higher realm. Down in Lower World, a high level party might have reason to adventure once a year or so.

@DrakusLuthos

Жыл бұрын

I would love to run a game where the players gradually develop from mundane low-level (1) play to mythical high-level (20) play. What you mention above is the exact kind of transition that I really envisioned.

@TheOriginalDogLP

Жыл бұрын

From a narrative point of view I find much more interesting and compelling to be saving kingdoms from dragons or descent into the realm of madness and be fightting for my life against literal gods rather than stepping out of the door and just stomp on some gnoll raiders or zombies.

@andrewlustfield6079

Жыл бұрын

4th level spells suck? 5th level spells suck? Minor globe of invulnerability and stone skin? Cloud kill and wall of force sucks? Stone shape? Dimension Door? Teleport? Cone of cold? What? How do these suck? If anything, it's getting too powerful at this point to control effectively. Start using some creative combinations and you have something that can wipe out whole armies. Improved invisibility, project image and a wall of fire around the projected image---then for fun, polymorph self into a quickling. Now you have an the projected image of an invisible quickling with a wall of fire around it that moves with it, doing 2-12+1 hp of damage per level of the caster to any creature he basically overruns. And this can be done again and again and again for as long as the projected image wall of fire and invisibility lasts. And the invisible mage can still cast more spells through that image. 4th and 5th and 6th level spells can be insanely powerful.

Currently DMing a LV 20 campaign; been LV 20 for 7 months ( the players didn’t want to stop as they were all still having tons of fun) they are perfectly happy with boons, magic items and new wizard spells. And just enjoying their god like powers. I’m good at running high level play according to my players.

@quasarsword7479

6 ай бұрын

It’s nice being able to use the whole monstrous manual. My favorite encounter they were lv 16. Though they were gods. I just sent wave after wave of goblins. At first they were laughing killing many in one move , they kept coming though. It was over 600 goblins total before the big bad demon made the appearance. A real khazad dum scenario. The goblins were a much greater threat then the cr17 . I tell dms that are intimidated by high lv encounters , that they can just add more if you’re monsters are dying to easy. Drain that party of abilities. 😮

It almost feels like high level and low level play are completely different games that are being portrayed as the same game let's go back to TSR, OG D&D, it had 3 tiers of play as well, Dungeon Tier, where you did the very low level "I'm a beginner or at the very least mildly experienced" missions, then you gained a level of power where that stopped being a problem, so you began to do quests that led you through the dangerous wilds of the world, the Wilderness Tier, and then you begin getting a hold on the world and exert your power, making bases of operations, affecting a whole region, thus Domain Tier D&D 5e is CONSTANTLY in Dungeon Tier without added Homebrew supplemental rules, I honestly think this is why mid level and high level tends to fizzle out

I really feel like it depends on what you're looking for. For me, personally, my favourite point in DnD is the very early game. I'd like to see the scaling smoothed out in those early levels (I think HP was a good metric you've used) and I'd enjoy the mid-game more. Sadly, I think (like most people) that I haven't played DnD at high level to really comment on it. I'm pretty sure WotC have said that the vast majority of players don't reach max level and they therefore don't focus on that tier of gameplay much.

@kailenmitchell8571

2 жыл бұрын

Leveling up....No Matter the Cost!!!!

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

Its a self fulfilling prophecy. WOTC doesn't make high level content. So of course very few groups play it. The one storyline where they did make higher level content was very poorly written.

@jeannot7784

2 жыл бұрын

Same, high level means to much option and I want to play a human not a demi god at 11 level or more.

I loved the high level portion of the last campaign I ran. It felt amazing to have these incredibly impactful, large scale things happen or absurd challenges placed before the PCs and know that they’d be able to figure out something somehow.

I love this idea. I know tons of players who find 5e appealing because it is geared towards high-powered fantasy gaming with many high-powered build potentials. So if you're running a game for those folks, why not skip the "boring" parts and get to the good stuff right away? Given, as noted, that most groups don't ever get to play at tier 3 or tier 4, I think this is something that's worth exploring for all groups.

@negative6442

2 жыл бұрын

5e isn't even that great for high powered play, tbh. Older editions and Pathfinder pull that off much better.

@varenoftatooine2393

2 жыл бұрын

@@negative6442 yeah, but people are so obsessed with 5e that they forget that other games exist

@priestesslucy3299

Жыл бұрын

@@negative6442 Can you elaborate on older editions? I'd love to hear some amazing tales of Companions or Masters adventures, or at least level 15+ AD&D

@negative6442

Жыл бұрын

@@priestesslucy3299 no sorry I have some tapes to return

I'd argue that outside of super hero films the highest levels of play represent a pretty small amount of what reflects most popular media people want to emulate. For instance, if you're a Game of Thrones superfan and want that at your table most editions of D&D are awful for that. It doesn't do LoTR any good. Or wheel of time even. So much of fantasy revolves around more relatable characters. Great for a power fantasy absolutely but the game is very inflexible if you want to do anything else with it. Obviously you've made a video about D&D but it mainly reminds me that folks have such a square peg round hole problem with the game. Instead of "have you ever thought to tweak your game with X thing and Y other thing!?" they could just play better games for the situation!

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

💯 agree with you. It's why in my home games I almost never play 5e anymore ahha.

@chambly111

2 жыл бұрын

Well, exactly what i wanted to say! Ahah, i should have read your comment before writting mine ;p

@commandercaptain4664

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece It's why I prefer universal systems. D&D 3-5E wants to be a universal system so badly, but fails on so many accounts that it just becomes micromanagey. Although, for a D&D fix, make mine BECMI.

@MrSITH-qj6zp

2 жыл бұрын

"Round peg square hole" not really. 5e gives you 20 levels of character info, so the game gives round hole for the round peg. Popular media gives low to mid level examples for now. Eventually the media superhero market will mix with the Fantasy market and fans will want to play 17th level plus. Thing is high level requires a lot of work and research on all(Dm, players) involved. The lazy wont like it.

@pn2294

2 жыл бұрын

I always find it confusing whenever people imply that “relatable” means “weak”

This should be viewed like a metroidvania. The fun of metroidvanias is not simply in doing more damage, it's in gaining the ability to do stuff you couldn't do before and reach areas you couldn't reach before. Force the party to make use of their new skills as they gain them to solve previously unsolvable problems, and those skills won't feel boring.

My favourite games go from 7th to 12th level, the most ideal range for a variety of reasons. I have no idea where you got the message of 4th level spells being a 'slog' because its not fireball: Polymorph, Dimension Door and Greater Invisibility are amazing spells.

I think there's a lot of interesting things you can do with a high level D&D party, and not only that i think it gears well with the style play that a lot of people in 5e generally tend to lean towards. For one, there's the benefit of having a history as a skilled adventurer which of course comes with interesting backstory hooks. Since your already high level, level progression can be slow in favor of a more narrative / roleplay heavy game. If anything I think it would be cool, to have a sort of backstory generation system for high level d&d games something that's similar to the life path system in cyberpunk red but more fantasy. In addition you can completely throw concepts of balance out the window and design insane encounter for the PC's since RNG isn't nearly as against you.

Starting at level 11 is exactly what I did in two campaigns I am running right now. My initial idea was "What if I just treat level 11 like level 1.". It's going great so far.

But there are so many good high level spells, how can someone feel like they are not gaining more power? wall of force, wall of stone, transmute rock, planar binding, mass suggestion, magic jar, scatter, contingency, bones of the earth, simulacrum, forcecage, maze, antipathy-sympathy, animal shapes, etc, and utility spells like scrying, transport via plants, teleport, etc all solve a bunch a problems that would have been a hassle before, I'm always hyped to hit odd levels.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Oh don't get me wrong, I LOVE these spells too! But I've met so many players who are like, "but where's my 15d6 massive fireball?"

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpieceYeah it is a mindset problem. Most people have been conditioned to only look at numbers instead of what the ability actually does.

@slydoorkeeper4783

2 жыл бұрын

@@GageEakins yeah, sometimes getting the right effect is better than just raw damage. And sometimes the right effect even leads to more damage. Look at casting Web in the air to stop flying creatures. Depending on the height, they fall dealing some about of damage but now they are also no longer in the air. Compare that to just a damage spell.

Great video. Really love the distinction between power-gaining tiers and power-broadening tiers. I love that middle zone, too. Every tier has its own style of play, necessitating a different style and skill-set from the DM. The high-level stuff is fun because I can throw absolutely bonkers stuff at the party and even I don't know how they're going to get out -- but then hot-damn they do. I'm constantly being surprised, and that's fun for the DM.

One way to help deal with the scalability problem is to stop letting players, monsters and NPCs have so many hit points. With Rules As Written (RAW) at 1st & 2nd level one good hit with a long sword can kill you, a critical hit can defiantly kill you. So by restricting hit points you can withstand 4-5 hits at 7th level. Combat moves much faster, the excitement is defiantly there and a boss fight doesn't last 3 hours to play through 2 minutes of game time. Before the traditionalists get upset, try it as a one shot. Have the characters roll at every second level for example to a max of 11th level. Damage output remains unchanged just limit the hit points. Players are forced to plan, be more tactical, prepare with buffs, etc.. I guarantee it will be exciting. Maybe not for you, okay but try it at least once.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Ever heard of epic level 6 (or what more aptly should be epic level 7 for 5e?)

@liamcage7208

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece I have now. I will check it out. Okay I heard of this from D&D 3.5. Its a similar idea for sure.

I think that magic items wonderfully fill the niche of horizontal scaling as well as providing creative solutions for characters outside of their given "skill tree".

I actually prefer to DM for high levels... It's 7-10 that gets me and feels like a grind (from the DM side of things), because players have the abilitys to punch well above their weight class, but they don't have the hp to survive a couple of well placed spells or hits, so I usually resort to a lot of lesser enemies or just accepting that sometimes my players are going to roll over the enemy, and sometimes they're going to get stomped by the same encounter. That's just my experience, everyone's is different.

I think with some creativity, a level 1 adventure can feel just as wild, fantastical and creative right from the start as a level 11 adventure. DCC funnel adventures do a great job with this. You just need to think outside the box of giant rats and imagine how level 1 characters can be pulled into a fantastic, high-stakes, cosmic-level drama.

Some really good points here, but I think it’s a feature, not a bug - 5e is front loaded purposefully because the research showed many did not play the higher levels. Also, the lack of domain level focus makes high level play (after low level) less appealing IMO. I like the idea of a high level campaign for certain groups, but you also have the problem of HP bloat etc at the high levels.. All in all, I’d rather have a game that tops out at level 10 with spells that are unattainable by the normal leveling methods and require specialized quests etc to learn them, but I’m not one to play or run “super hero” campaigns so the high levels are not appealing to me at all. Also Fireball is another overrated spell IMO.

@commandercaptain4664

2 жыл бұрын

HP bloat could have been fixed if Wizards implemented the Vitality/Wound rule from their Star Wars RPG system, tying in Vitality to exertion and power usage (ie: spell points) on top of damage, and Wounds being equal to Constitution + modifiers for when the real damage begins.

DMs also need to start giving the characters meaningful rewards at this stage that don't involve making numbers on the character sheet bigger. There should be threads that have been woven in to the earlier levels that can now be pulled on to bring characters in to the larger world, and get them to be called upon to interact with larger and more complicated challenges. Rewards aren't necessary the gaining of power on your sheet, as the gaining and preserving of power in the world. This is when characters should being really leaving their mark on the world, be pursuing their own long term goals, and start to see events that were set in motion by their actions earlier begin to bloom in to challenges all their own. Characters should be starting to build part of your campaign world for you, and should have what they are building begin to be threatened from time to time. DMs, you should be taking notes through the party's growth to this point with an eye towards what the characters have set in motion, what their goals are, and what they have grown to care about in the world. If these things aren't in how you run your world, then add them to your toolbox as soon as possible.

@commandercaptain4664

2 жыл бұрын

I'm sure hackslash groups prefer the same route, but it never made sense to me to have a party start out as mercenaries and continue to 20th level as... mercenaries???

I'm not sure I agree. HOWEVER a time jump skipping some middle levels to bring the players to higher level might be a good option.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

This works too! Go from level 7 to 11!

@Jpteryx

2 жыл бұрын

This is essentially what I did through a whole campaign: The party skipped straight from level 1 to levels (to the best of my recollection) 3, 6, 9, 13, 16, and 20 via time-skips.

Or you get to the higher level faster by capping at a lower level. This of course cuts a huge portion of the possibilities from a few builds but helps to keep the game challenging

@parttimed.m.1111

2 жыл бұрын

I do agree, I would prefer 10th being the finish line. 5 tourches deap got that right.

Completely disagree with this video. These examples show how the majority of players and DMs are solely looking at the game in terms of power instead challenge. Poor writing is what strips the game down to simply rolling dice. However not everyone has the same level of creativity and so you get this

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Ever heard of FKR?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Also, funny enough, I totally agree with your points.

@erikmartin4996

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece zero idea what FKR stands for

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

@@erikmartin4996 look up "Free Kriegspiel Revolution RPGs." It's a movement that is kind of a slippery-slope conclusion to what you are saying. While I disagree with the fundamental outcome of the movement, the logic used to arrive there is interesting, and reflects and expands the observation you make.

My high level experiences of the D&D system were not that good. It becomes unnecessarily cluttered. I would rather play another med fan system which allow strong characters at start. I understand you talk about D&D because it is so popular, but it should be noted that that system isn't the best for all types of games, and real bad in many cases.

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

I think you probably just didn't have an experienced DM at high levels. The DM needs to know how to balance combat and storylines to make the game fun at the higher tier of play. This makes sense as a lot of the material out there is for lower levels and a lot of DMs have not been able to gain that experience.

@chambly111

2 жыл бұрын

@@GageEakins Possible! But that ask another question: We are all experienced players, each of us with 20-30 years of play. Maybe our DM wasn't that experienced in the particular niche of high level D&D 5e ed. But how much experience is needed to actually enjoy a game? Is D&D5 designed to be enjoyed at level 10+ ? By who? With enough experience, i could have fun with blank sheets and pen. My thoughts is that a good rpg should be accessible and facilitate fun. Asking for even more experience is admitting the game is bad (at high levels), IMO. Experience can transform bad to good, but also good to excellent.

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

@@chambly111 DND requires an experienced DM to be enjoyable. Many a RPG horror story is created by having an inexperienced DM. High level play is no different. A DM needs to be experienced in running it because the story told is generally going to be different. If more content would be released, it would help more DMs gain that experience without having to go in blind. My point is high level play is not bad, it is just different. I think it can be much more enjoyable than lower level play if handled correctly because of all the choices and tools the party has and the freedom the DM has to throw just about anything at the party.

@chambly111

2 жыл бұрын

@@GageEakins I would not recommend that someone endure high level D&D play for a time, waiting to gain enough experience to enjoy it. My own experience is that a rpg player should play with a ruleset (D&D, Fate, OSR, PbtA, etc...) that align with his own preferences. Each should strive to learn what they like in rpg, and then choose a game (ruleset) accordingly. If a player doesn't enjoy a rpg in the first games, he should not play it.

@lorenzosaracino9912

2 жыл бұрын

@@chambly111 completely agree with you

Play Dungeon Crawl Classics, it goes to level 10 and every bit of it is epic. Characters are powerful, adventures will still kill them, everyone has a great time.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I LOVE dcc

@midnightgreen8319

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece It's become my favorite game system.

That's why I don't like level-based systems, is a good and a fun way to have a long term campaign, but they rarely happen, so a system that can create from the start the character that I want( Like M&M or Fate), and play until we as group became bored

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Right now fate and cairn are my two favorite RPGs. Neither have levels

@juliocesar899

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece Right now, Fate and Cortex Prime are go to for basically every campaign or one shot that I DMing

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

@@juliocesar899 I need to read cortex prime

@juliocesar899

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece Probably the best modular/generic system out there that nobody talks about kk

@juliocesar899

2 жыл бұрын

Although part of the reason is that he in the Cortex Prime rulebook...kinda have a problem to expect too much of the DM

I would never want to start at anything other than lvl 1 in dnd. It's my 0 to hero game, and that's what ì want it to do.

@thebolas000

2 жыл бұрын

At what point do you consider yourself a hero? Is it more of a certain level or after a certain accomplishment?

@DiomedesRangue

2 жыл бұрын

@@thebolas000 I see dnd as a game with the arcs of a hero. The definition of a hero very much changes as you play. Village Hero (1-3), Regional hero (4-6), Kingdom Hero (7-10), etc.

@thebolas000

2 жыл бұрын

@@DiomedesRangue So you're always some kind of hero? Does that mean that it's like a high school athlete going into college and being on the bottom rung again? Then going pro and having it happen all over again?

@DiomedesRangue

2 жыл бұрын

@@thebolas000 yeah, that's a great example. That's how I see it at least.

I have a game running for a year, start at lv3 now we're 8. Im at the point of the story where I beat the party doen a bit, and I feel like at lvl 9-11 is the point where they can have that "rise to the top" feeling. (2/3 players are 4X/4Pally multiclass so that probably has to do with it)

For me i found that after level 5 power doesn't come from class stateblocks but equipment, this makes going through adventures more rewarding as the loot they get actually means something overall. Additionally i find that threat levels and lethality to be subjective. I design my major dungeons more like puzzles that must be figured out than brute forced, trying to do so anyways is a death sentence typically. For example my previous dungeon was so full of zombies and ghouls they had no way to survive in a fair fight, but some of the dungeon rooms were connected via thin passages that could only be got through single file. What could have been a standard zombie extermination became a desperate fight to keep the hordes at bay using the dungeons layout.

I have a group comprised of new players and guys who are coming back after a prolonged absence (like 30 years). I found that low- to mid-level campaigns work best for the group due to the learning curve. Funny enough, their learning curve seems to match the way challenges and complexity ramp up through the campaign. I’d consider starting at a higher level if they TPK or for one shots, but I like being able to ease into longer campaigns with fewer mechanics for the players (and me) to contend with at the start.

I ran a campaign where I had my players level up their characters almost every week and never more than two weeks between level ups. It was pretty wild, and it was fun to see what they would come up with as their power steadily increased. I wasn’t shy about piling on the challenge either, and I got to try out monsters and scenarios I had wanted to present for years. I think if I ever ran 5E again I’d probably do it again the same way.

Tried starting a campaign with higher levels started at 10 and made it so everyone in the party was in there own dungeon party before being sucked into a planescape campaign together very fun would recommend and it keeps the i dont know your character yet tension from early game

Very interesting and useful video! I love your content! When you write these videos, where do you pull your arguments from? I saw the chart in this video, but how do you go about interpreting it? Your own experience?

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

I made the chart I'm Google docs. And this is just me thinking through my own experience and asking a few other game designer friends of mine occasionally if they have similar experiences sometimes. Other times my observations are pretty damn unique lol.

Well, that's an interesting thesis... Though I've found in most of the campaigns I've played in, the DM gives up before reaching the higher levels because it gets ever harder to challenge the PC's. So I don't see skipping the middle unless you've got a DM skilled at the higher levels. Just my thoughts. 😜🤓

@ADT1995

2 жыл бұрын

I prefer DMing for higher levels, but I think I'm in the minority based off of what I've read in the community

@lorenzosaracino9912

2 жыл бұрын

Because dnd is terrible for balanced encounters at high levels

I'm so glad you brought this up. I wish for more players and DMs to embrace high-level play.

I nice thing about starting at a higher level is it allows players to try out interesting multi-class builds without having to suffer those foundation levels where the characters aren't good at anything yet.

I started my campaign at level 8. I specifically chose 8, because it enables a lot of good builds with some small restrictions due to only being level 8. I encouraged them to make something good, gave them a pool of starting gold, and let them use it to buy magic items by rolling for a price. I am happy to say that it has worked amazingly so far, and my players really enjoy the feeling of power. For combat encounters, I will often include low power mooks along with powerful threats to let the players show off a bit, because it lets them have fun with their builds.

It's funny how mid-level are the best levels in Pathfinder and 3rd edition, but these games becomes impossible after 13th level.

Interesting video! I would guess that some of the power roll off for characters at higher levels is helped with magical items. If that is the case, does anyone have good ways to approve starting magical items for players entering a high level campaign?

You reminded me that I have to read "Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns" 2nd edi, got it like 25 years ago and I still have not read it. Last time I ran a high lvl game was Birthright best ad&d world eva. Thank you for the video please keep making content.

Thank you! Almost the entire of my group think levels 3 to 7 are the best in the game but I and one other person think that 10 to 20 is the most fun. We play really long years-long games so we do get to our favourite levels eventually but it's literally years into the game since we start at level 3, we are 4 years into the current game and got to level 11 just before xmas lol.

Part of what I do as a DM to account for parties getting stronger is that their previous deeds and abilities are things the villains will learn about. The villains then think up ways to counter the older abilities which helps highlight the new ones. It also makes the PCs feel like they're just barely one step ahead at crucial moment. I also love a puzzle element to combats, to the extent that you almost can't win against bosses without having their weakness. This can come in the form of silvered or magical weapons, or destroying a phylactary, or various other details. The idea is that half way through the PCs realize that there is some threat or need they are going to have to spend actions dealing with.

well this stings a little...mid level play tends to be my absolute favorite state to run.

I'm considering just bumping my party from 8th level all the way to 11th level at once when the time comes

man so true for some reason my dm like one shots that are lvl 4 or 6 where i have become the high level one shot ideas guy and only guy so my friends can finally try their fun weird or cool character builds

I've had a group of several 14th level party members panic when i through a horde style fight at them. It was a homebrew monster granted, but as individuals a level 2 character wouldnt even care, but as a horde.. well, lets say the Evocation wizard didnt have enough fireball spells prepared for the horde. The horde came in waves, unbeknowst to the group, they got the first wave done, no big. But they didnt know there would be a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and later on 9th wave of these little guys, they then really were stirring the hornets' nest at that point and then they needed a lot of buff spells and athletics checks to flee. Never underestimate a good horde style encounter.

Been running a once a month campaign for around four years now. Started at 1st, players are now 16th. We agreed to finally run a campaign to level 20. Main problem I have DMing for them at 14th plus is the magic fling around. All the characters have some spell ability and the only way to really push them into danger is monsters or enemies with spell to counter. Makes planning encounters and combat run longer than the early days.

"Lackluster 4th and 5th Level Spells" *Polymorph, Wall of Fire, Animate Objects, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force and Synaptic Static have entered the chat*

My first campaign that I ever ran went to level 20. Up to level 13 the party is focused on "A" plot and sidequests. They realize that resolving the "A" plot conflict is beyond their power and the power of the strongest NPCs that they know. At level 13 I introduce "The Quest". The party receives an invitation that detects as magical in many overlapping schools of magic to participate in a world level fighting tournament for "The favor of the Gods". They don't know what favor of the gods entails, but maybe that can help solve "A" plot conflict. There are catches though. 1.The invitation can not be placed inside an extra-demensional space (prevents the players from hiding it). 2. The players have to find another team with an invitation and take their invitation and other teams are attempting to take theirs. The invitations vibrate when in proximity of another invitation. ( 2 tickets to qualify, have the bad-ass team show up with a stack of them). 3. The party is 1 member short and needs to find another member (They get to actively select an NPC that they are reliant on which gives you something that they love to take away for dramatic effect) 4. The Contest is on the other side of the world and is only "X" many days away (Ticking time clock, My players had 90 Days to get there).

My last campaign started at lv 10. Super cool. Also, my crit tables have ways to permanently reduce Max HP, which are rare but make the players more and more fragile as they get badly wounded. It's a way of making the players feel threatened by higher level enemies, bcs a a lv15-20 tank rarely fears something as his HP reach really high numbers.

For the last three years I’ve been running a game with myself and just two players in a game where i started them at level 11 to build the character they really wanted to play instead of grow

New favorite channel.

Having run 5e games at multiple tables with a variety of different players with different experience, and at all Tiers, I find the highest levels to be far too number crunchy to enjoy combat. And there's a strange sense of 'wait, aren't I a worldbending hero? Why am I still running into encounters that can threaten my life?' If you're doing your job right as a DM, the game is just as challenging across the board. Sure, you can throw in easy encounters to make any tier feel strong (minions from 4e, anyone?) but the goal should be that it's still as challenging as the table wants no matter the level. So what does that really mean? That you're essentially crafting the same kind of encounters narratively at all levels and tiers. The only difference is higher levels are more prone to analysis paralysis and everyone at the table needs to crunch more numbers. (I get a modifier from A, but also B, however on this turn I'm using C, which allows me to use A again and when I use A twice on the same turn I get a bonus to hit which also activates D. Oh! They also need to make a save; if they fail then E, G, And Z rules apply. And now for my Bonus Action...). Do this song & dance x amount of times per monsters and players, and you've finished 1 round!

@commandercaptain4664

2 жыл бұрын

That's when roleplaying turns into wargaming. Leveling is mainly focused on combat give-and-takes, hardly anything granted toward socializing and exploration. It baffles me how some consider 5E to be "dumbed down" when it's just the same, albeit streamlined, combo-breaker CCG gamplay as 3E. Does that make 1-2E dumbed down as well?

@rayclawicefire2503

2 жыл бұрын

@@commandercaptain4664 the reason why people say 5e is "Dumbed Down" is because it is a streamlined version of the rules. Now to answer your question,

@rayclawicefire2503

2 жыл бұрын

"Does that make 1-2E dumbed down as well?" no if anyone actually try's to make and actual argument 1st edition is a dumbed down version of 3.5E *(Not you)* is either not thinking clearly or just dumb.

I've run a few games that started at level 10 and the main problem I tend to run into is 5e's lackluster monsters. At higher levels it almost becomes a necessity to homebrew monsters, at least a little, to make them actually challenging for the players.

The longest running games I've known and had are capped games or the old school retirement system. Starting over with a new character that was an apprentice to your old one who becomes an NPC. These are games that could span decades without getting stale.

Dammit Barron, you've made me think I may need to try this one out. I currently make everyone play Zero levels peasants to start (and 0- lv in class for 5e) and relish in low-play. May have to try out a super-hero campaign. It would be a change for sure.

I start campaigns at level 3, and players gain 4th level at the end of the first session. I stick to the 'fast' XP track until level 10. Level 10-11 is done on the normal or slow track, depending on what I have in mind. My best campaign was running for 3 years before covid hit and we were forced to put it on hiatus. Once we get going again, we expect to take another 3 years before the story wraps up. Not typical, I know.

Any level is fully dependent on the gm, a good gm can make any level fun

Imma be real, I ditched D&D 5e for Pathfinder 2e back in 2020 and running PF2e just feels so much better bc the PCs and enemies have interesting abilities even at low levels. (Also, damage scaling works better too, but that's entirely unrelated).

A lot of substantial class abilities that establish interest and the class fantasy are put into the low levels so you start with a competent character right out the gate, but the mid level features don't scale quite as much. Worse yet, the slow scaling at mid levels is amplified by the "sweet spot", which is an intentional EXP hike to make those levels take up more time. Level 11 onward is a bit quicker in regards to that (about 2 encounter days per level instead of 3).

I got you my dude I do epic play all the time, it's not the power that's unreasonable it's the hit points What I do for my players is I get rid of armor class and let hit points be armor points and death saves become hit points I like to think armor points as scrapping through a lance charge and striking your lance without delay but getting hit by hit points feel that near death experience like mortal kombats x ray attacks Everyone is blocking everything like a real fight but the final attack always matter

I find low level campaigns have three primary purposes 1) training players with a class they haven't used before 2) allowing experienced players who have played 7+ level games for a long time to try something fresh. 3) giving newer dms a chance to learn the fundimentals before having to make rulings about the component cost of twinned resurrection....

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

0:15 "what if, at least for veteran players..."

@benjaminkowal7310

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece I think "D&D veterans" is hard to define...after playing for a year about twice weekly (at my home table and online) ...I still feel like anything over level 6 or 7 is novel and complex. I know some folks have played four or five times a week for decades...I'm jealous and recognize the game doesn't equate exactly to how I play.

Whilst watching this I thought of this...from level 6 when the characters advance in level, they do so by 2 levels from here on in until either Tier 4 or level 20. To clarify, once the characters reach level 6 from hereafter they advance 2 levels...lvl 8, lvl 10, lvl 12...and so on. What do you think of this idea? If anyone play tests this idea, please by all means share how if went with pro's and con's, if any.

So, start all games at Level 10? This might actually be some of the best advice I've ever heard on D&D.

Reminds me of Godbound, an OSR game meant to emulate high-level D&D game at a lower crunch. You're basically starting at 20th level characters and go up from there into demigod status, finally being able to sway entire kingdoms, punch dragons and what have you with ease.

I think pre planning campaigns into 3 month seasons makes more sense than an endless and indefinite timespan. It's not only easier to plan out but gives players a sense of a beginning, middle and end to the whole story.

It's one of the reasons people came up with the E6 mod back in D&D 3e (although the concept can be carried over to other editions). You stop gaining vertical power at level 6, when you've reached "peak normal human power" and only gain feats or spells or new skills, not HP, spell levels, or bigger numbers, so it becomes more horizontal improvement. No more treadmill, big monsters remain a threat that you'll never match physically, but you might have more ways to approach them.

I'm planning an Acheron campaign that's boss rushes from 13-20.

At 9th level they should all be building their towers and strongholds they just unlocked, allowing them to research and build spy networks and such.

If your party gets OP, I would recommend every DM to watch the first Ip Man movie. You have an ungodly, powerful human stripped of his wealth and his status and his ability to protect others, as he has to worry about more than just himself.

I’m a new dm with experiences players. currently when I plan a campaign. I plan for one level. Even if my characters level up, they are are probably going to be in the same range of abilities. Level 1-3. Level 5-7. Level 7 onwards. So I just usually forgo the leveling system all together in favor of More creative problems for the party to solve.

I've only played dnd for so long, but I can surely say that this is correct. I remember being kind of sad when I wanted to continue my character into a new campaign, but my dm wanted to start all over again. My dm was going to continue in the same world but he wanted everyone to basically reset. Everytime I look at the abilities I could have I get so excited, but no one wants to continue into those levels.

I'm running a campaign and the players are now level 14. Your statement about "threatening the characters" is so true. So instead, I threaten everyone and everything they care about. I've learned to attack their character sheets and give them problems that can't be solved with their stats.

Mind blown. Great perspective indeed.

Great video! Also, “k’BOLDS” LOL! Sounds like a snake oil version of a potion of heroism sold by a kobold with the charlatan background.

We generally quit our characters at 15 or so in AD&D 1st. There seems to be massive jumps in power compared to 5e.

Good points I think the next edition should address these issues, I would hope.

You could also scale levels gained through XP on an S curve. It's both closer to how we really aquire skills and gives more time in the fun levels while allowing players to have less time in the boring transitional levels

4:31 The chest on that ancient beef dragon is ridiculous. If you're going to draw monsters, you've got to practice drawing animals, not just people.

The damage graph breaks down the moment you actually apply the rules instead of class in a vacuum. 5e one isnt as smooth as a (limited splatbook, but still ToB, Save and Races of book approved) 3e, but it is effectively clean in line with the CR table of the DMG. And no i dont mean the XP or daily encounter CR, but the actual CR - EHP-DPR-average AC-Modifier table for building monsters. Similarly, 2-3-4-5 arent power spikes, its merely a actually guaranteed linear growth that is required to make up for the lack of mathematical benefits that magic items provide. 1-3 importance depends massively on class and subclass thus sets the flavour, 4 is massive in it being the feat or for non-expanded point buy/lucky roll characters being the point of hitting 20 in (or at least a 18 and 16 in another) a attribute or a feat (just PAM or GWM are far bigger advantages for the mentioned fighter than extra attack). Not that the point of a high level start is wrong, its even outright suggested in every edition of D&D (even in supplements for 1e, tho not chainmail).

It's exciting early on when you make big level jumps so skip that bit and start where it gets boring. 🤔

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

Levels 10-20 have big power jumps too.

@2copperpieces

2 жыл бұрын

@@GageEakins I'm just paraphrasing what sounded like the point of the video

@GageEakins

2 жыл бұрын

@@2copperpieces I was trying to counter the idea that the higher levels are boring. I disagree with him on that. The power spikes aren't quite as extreme as levels 1-5, but they still are there and do offer a feeling of advancement. I think his point is that if you start at a higher level, you won't feel like everything is slowing down. Because your base expectation will be set differently.

I've always felt that the leveling system was itself in need of an update. Unless they're new to the game, just have the group pick which level they want to play at based on how powerful they want to be, and then don't level up at all. Leveling up shouldn't be one of our goals imho- the plot of the campaign/adventure, along with our characters' personal motivations and goals, should be our only concerns. And personally speaking (your mileage certainly may vary), the "I can't wait to get power x at level y" chase becomes really tedious after the first few times through.

I think the main issue is that Wizards of the Coast hasn't released any high-level content, so there's nothing to go off of. A lot of DMs are trying their best to bring things to high levels, but without good, tested examples of traps and encounters and creatures that challenge high-level characters, DMs get tired of having all their plans ruined by a single spell and disband the game. And meanwhile, players get bogged down with tons of spells, abilities, and magic items they have to keep track of, getting sick of playing a game about accounting instead of just fighting simpler encounters with simpler abilities. Starting at 11th is very difficult, mainly because it's hard to keep all your abilities straight, it's easy to regret certain choices in the build, and you just don't have the time spent with the character to know why all of their abilities matter. It's much more fun to start out early on, look forward to using certain abilities, and develop a story behind gaining them than it is to just start the game at a higher level. I tried it once and it was hard for the players in this way and for the DM, who had a lot of his encounters immediately bypassed because of spells and abilities he hadn't taken into account. I don't know what the solution is, but hopefully high-level play can be a bigger thing in the future.

One of my most memorable pathfinder games started started us on lvl 17. I designed a gold dagon desciple sorcerer with a bunch of utility and buffing spells with the leadership feat so halfling paladin would ride him in dragon form. At the end of each session or when we wanted to rest he cast magnificent mansion and we would eat a heroes feast are we rested in comfort and safety.

I think player interest is there, it's DM burnout that becomes an issue. Rotating DMs and running published adventures has helped with this problem with our group to great success. We have run 3 campaigns that all went from first to about 17th.

That’s why I never do encounters linear but organic. I want them to get a powerful feeling from what they found hard before is easy now, and also encounters that they should avoid. Just because they’re low level, doesn’t mean that a dragon for instance can’t fly around, or a conflict happens and powerful creatures moves around. I like to throw an encounter right in the beginning that’s just too much than what they can chew, to teach the players that it’s alright to retreat. It’s alright not to beat everything that moves, you are in fact fragile, but can also become powerful.

Guardians of the Galaxy feels like a level 11 starting campaign

I stole the Powered by the Apocalypse system for leveling characters and applied it to a legacy weapon for each character. I then work with the players to find thematic upgrades every other level. Lvl. 1: +1 Lvl. 2: +1d6 dmg or equivalent Lvl. 3: +2 Lvl. 4: level 3 or 4 spell or equivalent. So on and so forth.

My players are currently level 6 and one is a Genie warlock that wanna use Echo knight fighter like his Genies is getting out to help him. What i did to make that process more narrative and more of a dread to achieve, the player totally baited on joined a cult where his mark not only weakens him if he doesn't do certain activities to the god but also gives him a low double sided edge Boon that makes him more of a threat to himself and the party. I also make them engage in "low level things" by moral actions and to feed the creeping ambiguity and mystery i build up before a dungeon or a sketchy place shows up. So they are not only in the feel of agency but also on the mood of going, there's no granny asking them to explore the old underground INN they go there because "fuck i heard voices from the walls and now people from the tavern topside is going missing. At this rate we are gonna leave a ghost town or worse" And then they take their time inspecting and finding this handle on the back of the fire place that is always lit. A dark greasy ambiences of mud and seal opens and with that a staircase to am abyss from where the voices call harder.

Your delivery provides me similar neuro-stimulus as Legal Eagle, just covering a much more complex juris materia (which is D&D).

I'd love a game like this as a player. As a DM making or modifying an adventure for a group that has access to high level spells for travel/divination/etc is daunting.

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

The trick is to not focus on what the players can and can't do, but instead focus on what the central tension of the plot is. Even if your players kill a lieutenant, strap his corpse to a chair, cast a zone of truth, and then revivify the dead enemy to interrogate them, they still will have blown through half thier spells for the day. Try to keep the focus of the problem to a very contained situation: don't try to trifle with a complex dungeon design, for example. I should do an episode on this.

@beaug4306

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece A vid on DMing tier 3-4 would be great. I've done it, and its a lot of fun but there is definitely a learning curve there and I'm betting there are a lot of people like me that don't have a ton of experience with it. The first time I tried it the only reference I had was listening to some high level episode of critical role.

My problem with high level plays is that as a Spellcaster, spells higher than 3rd level start feeling...meh, you cant really reflavor them into something ELSE than what the text says, and for some reason they feel off! Like these were old edition spells that got slapped on the spell list to complete the levels they hadnt thought of, and obviously you will ALWAYS grab the same ones cause the other spells of that tier SUCK or have no cohesion with the spells you were grabbing earlier that made sense with the character, the options feel narrower and boring. As a DM, it already was hard to make challenging encounters at low levels, now I gotta deal with extremely powerful characters that can just delete most monsters by looking at them...yeah dont really like high level other than the class features are cool as hell

That is quite the impressive dracaena trifasciata you have there

@DungeonMasterpiece

2 жыл бұрын

Been growing it out for 12 years

@adamscholtes

Жыл бұрын

@@DungeonMasterpiece the video was great too.

great vid! i have always been blessed to never have the 6 month fizzle, i wonder if its because i encourage my players to buiuld their characters for maximum fun, and not min max them, if a player wants the linguist feat i am darn well going to give them plenty of opportunities to use it and in my gmes there is no such thing as a broken build

“Games get boring at level 9” Okay guys you level up, but instead of 9 you go straight to level 10.