I thought the Rossini Otello duet was quite good and amusing by both.

Brilliant composition Lilani ! I am so proud of you ❤

The way you’re using the term baritenor is not how it was historically used and THAT is how Michael uses the term baritenor. He is precisely what Andrea Nozzari, Giovanni David, Manuel Garcia and Gaetano Crivelli were.

Spyres is able to sing both baritones and tenors roles. He is actually a baritone with an extreme mixed voice developement. The only question is : is he a good baritone and a good tenor. The answer is yes. Is he able to sing properly on 3 octaves. The answer is yes. So you can qualify him as a Baritenor

1:15 lo estas comparando con un tenor ligero Si comparas a j. Kaufman con kraus también va a parecer barítono , existen varios tipo de tenores

You made a very cogent argument about the difficulty of saying anything certain about voices from recordings, and indeed now in the house, where despite naïve contrary views, ‘enhancements’ are certainly part of the performance. What chiefly strikes me about Spyres KZread clips is that no matter what he sings, from stratospheric Rossini to Énée to Tristan, the sound is equally present, never overwhelmed, often helped by added reverberation. This cannot correspond to acoustical reality, which leaves one only to comment on the timbre of the voice, which I find pasty and thin as a tenor, more attractive as a baritone.

Corelli was not included.Should have been a good comparison.

Hm… I didn’t see you compare any of their technique, just juxtaposing different recordings on top of each other. I don’t think this really proves your point.

@jefolson6989

3 ай бұрын

Agree. I dont feel like I learned anything.

Also a baritoner can also mean a high baritone 🤷

@ZENOBlAmusic

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I think that might be true, especially in music theatre and contemporary music. High baritones can easily sing high notes in the tenor range with mixed voice. There are a few high baritones in pop music and people just assume they are tenors. I think Ed Sheeran might be one of these singers (I am not 100% sure I haven't looked into his music enough to make a 100% conclusion). Then again it is also sometimes a matter of technique, people also thought Harry Styles was a baritone, but his technique improved and he is obviously not a baritone. But of course it is interesting to notice that mixed voice makes the voice lighter and softer, in order to sing higher. And it is easy to sing high notes softly with a microphone. For example, I have read from some music engineers that Chris Cornell's high notes in reality used to be more like the soft whispers. Now, I don't think he was a baritone, but it certainly helps that you can sing very softly and closer to falsetto, and a microphone will pick it up. Covering and singing opera is obviously the opposite. Therefore I am not sure that the same is true for opera.

@bradycall1889

5 ай бұрын

@@ZENOBlAmusic Yes I agree Cornell sounds like either a dramatic or a spinto tenor to me. And Ed Sheeran artificially lightens and brightens his voice a lot and I agree that he's probably a higher baritone who makes a fake tenor timbre and vocal weight.

@bradycall1889

5 ай бұрын

@@ZENOBlAmusic Also, there's an operatic bass who can sing C5 in mixed voice. It's not true chest voice, but I was surprised he could do it.

@jefolson6989

4 ай бұрын

A high baritone is acceptable but take the same range and call him a low tenor and he is out of business. There is an infinite variety 9f human shapes. It's crazy to try to fit them neatly into 3 categories per gender.

@bradycall1889

3 ай бұрын

@@jefolson6989 I agree that it's hard to sing in the range of 3 voice types at once

You can find tenors with more and less penitrating upper notes than the example of Spyres. And example of Spyers with more as well. Your effort here is not showing what you think. It may show resentment. Some folk resent other's achievements instead of feeling inspired. That is the essence of all bad character.

On the topic of the size of the voice do bigger voices have more squillo than a lighter voice or is it pure volume? is it true the only dramatic voices generate squillo in the lower range as well as the middle and upper range?

@bradycall1889

5 ай бұрын

Generally yes, bigger voices tend to have more squillo.

@ZENOBlAmusic

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I think that is generally true, dramatic voice does tend to have more squillo at a lower range. Thus I think it might also have something to do with the weight of voice and the power of the voice. Lyric tenors like Pavarotti for example has the most squillo on B4 and C5 notes. That is where a lyric tenor has the most power in their voice. In dramatic tenor voices they can often generate suillo from F4 and sometimes lower, and of course on their high notes as well. That is where their voices have the most power and volume.

@ZENOBlAmusic

5 ай бұрын

As for why I think it might not work in opera, there are a few reasons. The one reason being as I explained in that other video I made. A lyric Baritone or a Baryton-Martin is a very light and lyrical voice. So what exactly will they sing? Will they sing spinto and dramatic repertoire? Having a more lighter voice for these roles would not necessarily be a good idea. More dramatic operas such as Otello and Fanciulla Del West, requires a lot of power or a big voice. Spinto roles can be tricky some of them have quite a high tessitura. It not about range, but tessitura. Even the really dramatic tenors can struggle a bit with some spinto roles, like Manrico for example. There are not particular high notes if you exclude the interloped C on the pira, but this can be a challenging role. And some of the other lyric repertoire might just be to high and difficult. Baritones tends to sing more different types of roles, but this is of course not the same for tenors. Roles such as Cavaradossi and Rodolfo might be possible. Take Thomas Hampson as an example he did a more baritone version of Werther. He did not think about trying to do a version of Otello. Werther is one of Kraus' best roles, of the dramatic tenors it is only Corelli who performed this role. This is not exactly a role that is often performed by big voiced tenors. The same is true of Ramon Vinay when he sang baritone, he did not sing Rossini, he sang Verdi baritone roles, because he had a dramatic voice, whether he sang tenor or baritone that did not change. The same is true in reverse as well, Del Monaco liked singing Largo Al Factotum he could hit all of the notes, but he did not sing it particularly well. His voice was too heavy and inflexible for that light repertoire. Perhap a lyric baritone would be able to sing Wagner. roles, I think that might work. From that perspective I think it is easier for a tenor to switch between tenor and baritone roles.

@bradycall1889

5 ай бұрын

@@ZENOBlAmusic It's hard for both tenors to sing baritone roles and baritones to sing tenor roles. But one of the advantages that a tenor singing baritone would have over baritones singing tenor would be that even though their low notes would likely not be heard across an entire orchestra, they would still be less likely to strain their voices.

@jefolson6989

4 ай бұрын

All singers have ( or should have) squillo to varying degrees . It's what give it brightness and carrying power. Without it, all the muscles in the world won't help with volume. Like Alredo. He sings in a light voice, but it carried for miles.

Melchior was a true baritenor

@bradycall1889

28 күн бұрын

Correct

I will say, sometimes he overdarkens, and sometimes he overbrightens. Either way, he makes fake sounds all the time. It's hard, for me personally, to actually give him an actual voice type when he doesn't have fully established technique. But I will say though, he does have more resonance when he sings brightened than when he sings dark, and that really tells us something about him.

I'll just say this once: A lyric tenor can be a baritenor if he has good low notes in my opinion. But yes I agree that Spyres doesn't have as deep of a voice as he may think in his own head. But if he heard me say that, he'd likely accept it as a compliment because he always wanted to be a tenor anyways lol. But it's not just the size of the voice that makes a voice, it's also how the technique is. He has technical difficulties, meaning that his voice could likely be just a tad bigger if he had better technique. If I had to make a hazard guess, he's likely a full-lyric tenor who just happens to sing thin due to flaws in his technique. With Juan Diego Florez, it's more obvious on his voice type because he's higher lying than Spyres by quite a bit.

@ZENOBlAmusic

5 ай бұрын

There are some leggero tenors that have good lower extension. Light lyric tenor tend to never have good low notes. lol (In my opinion). A full lyric tenor might have better low notes. But I think a huge problem is simply recordings in general, this have created ideas about voices that are not true. I do think size is really the most important factor in opera. We are currently in a place where vocals are always enhanced, even so called live performances, have enhanced vocals. No, I am not saying that they are using secret microphones or any of these conspiracies. They don't have to use secret microphones with today's technology. During the 50's and up to the 80's people used to record bootlegs of live performances, so we had a much better record of how these singers used to sound live. But the live vocal enhancements already started to appear in the 80's. The Met have always broadcasted live performances, but from the 80's these broadcasts were specifically controlled. What they release to the public, on these recording is not how the singers would sound live in-house. This trend only became stronger over the years. So even the "live" performances that we get today are carefully controlled, edited and selected. It is very convenient especially these days, a few hundred people may see a real live performance, but on youtube thousand of viewers can see a performance. Here are a few tenors singing the low Bb2 note in Infano Alvero: kzread.info/dash/bejne/aZNo1qqSZZzdibA.htmlsi=nRxrNJpptteQisGt The light lyric tenors are really bad. That is a very long way to say that what we generally hear is very deceptive. Warm lyrical voices can sound as if they are big and as if have a lot of weight. This trend already started with Caruso. He was a lyric tenor and later a lyric spinto tenor with a warm voice. And now many people think he was a dramatic tenor. I do think he had a good sized voice, but he was certainly not a dramatic tenor. He was the lyric tenor of his day, other tenors such as Paoli and Tamagno were the real dramatic tenors of the day. But when you hear Tamagno's voice on recordings, it does not sound like a particularly dark or big voice, but from all accounts he had a big voice with lots of squillo. Size of the voice is far more significant then the colour of the voice

@bradycall1889

5 ай бұрын

@@ZENOBlAmusic Okay respectable. At least I like that you're being polite about disagreeing.

@jefolson6989

4 ай бұрын

And coluratira sopranos can sing mezzo, but they don't. Why would they? Spyres is in his own category. No once else has had simultaneous careers as tenor and barotone. Vinay sanf tenor, then baritone, then bass, but not at the same time. He wasn't a baritenor. He was a former tenor, then a baritone etc. Spyres ( as tenor) is lyrico-spinto, plus the agility of a leggero. As a baritone, he's just another baritone. Other singers could do this, but why?

@jefolson6989

4 ай бұрын

So many tenors are classified as baritones because they have better low notes than high notes. 1st lesson and they are labeled a baritone. Ruins many a good voice. Happened to me. I tried to fatten it up to make a baritone sound with further shrunk upper range as the low notes turned to dust. I gave up . Terribly dissapointed until I found a good teacher. Spyres seems very knowledgeable about vocal mechanic and is mostly self taught I believe. Watch him on the SCREAMING DIVA podcast.

@jefolson6989

4 ай бұрын

​@ZENOBlAmusic sounds like unhinged conspiracy theory to me. While they may twiddle the nobs for broadcasts, there aren't " live enhacements" . If there were, it would cause a huge scandal and no one at the Met could keep it secret. There is no such thing as a dramatic tenor. Because other than perhaps Otello there are no roles written for dramatic tenor in Italian. The heavier roles are sung by spintos. Some tenors are more dramatic on stage than others but if they are called dramatic tenors it is because they have big voices. One could argue that Jon Vickers and Mario del Monaco were dramatic tenors. They sang spinto roles.

Spyres, nonobstant son registre, sa large tessiture, garde son timbre de ténor rossinien et ne supporte évidemment pas la comparaison avec Del Monaco dans l'Otello de Verdi. Caruso: registre ténor timbre basse, Chaliapine: registre baryton timbre basse, Ramey registre basse timbre baryton, Bastianini registre baryton timbre basse ...

@bradycall1889

4 ай бұрын

Some of those I don’t agree with. Such as Samuel Ramey who has a very bass timbre, though we can at least agree he has a bass tessitura.

@JURISMICH

4 ай бұрын

@@bradycall1889 Oui, beaucoup de chanteurs, avec l'âge, prennent du grave (mais Domingo n'aura jamais le i du baryton, un contre exemple Bergonzi fit d'abord carrière en baryton!). Les basses naturelles (Siepi, Ghiaurov ...) ont un grave ample mais souvent moins appuyé que celui des filiformes comme Ramey (en France Depraz) qui, avec l'âge, prennent aussi de l'amplitude, ce qui leur donne une sonorité énorme. En basse rossinienne, Ramey est un phénomène inégalé.

If he SAYS he is a baritenor, thats what he is. Or you can say he is a baritone with an incredible upper range or a tenor with great low range. He is unique whatever you call him. Its not unusual for baritones to have tenorish high but most cant handle the tessitura.

@bradycall1889

7 күн бұрын

I don't agree with the concept of self-identification.

You are not saying anything interesting and your claims are lacking validity. To start with "A baritenor is...." where did you take this definition from? Lack of reference makes your point invalid, because if that definition comes from your grandmother... well, you have wasted a lot of time producing this video (that sounds very trollish to me)