*Update* One of the books I recommend (Dan Sharp - Messerschmitt 262) is currently sold out (19 Dec 23). I had contact with the author and publisher and I am told that a new print run is likely. I don't know when - so keep checking if you are interested. *Remember, the Mortons code is valid all year round now and in 2024* ! Mortons: 10% off with "MAH10" at www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/ - Calum Douglas - The Secret Horsepower Race www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/product/view/productCode/15057 - Dan Sharp - Heinkel He 162 www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/product/view/productCode/15025

I highly recommend the earlier videos Chris did on the He 162. That plane seems absolutely insane until you realize what a drain the Me 262 was on German resources in the last year of the war.

@MilitaryAviationHistory

5 ай бұрын

Thanks! There is a very cold logic to the He 162.

@julianshepherd2038

5 ай бұрын

​@@MilitaryAviationHistoryif you accept the logic of fighting on in August 44.

@GoetzimRegen

5 ай бұрын

It wasn't as a drain as you think, you have to see the whole picture and see the smaller programs like the Me 262 where the shadow of the real secret weapon program that began at the end of the Weimar Republic. To get an accurate picture read an authentic hard core fact books, like the first James Bonds from Ian Flaming.

@emperorfancypants2512

5 ай бұрын

The me262 was the only plane which had a good chance of achieving an attack on the bomber formation and retreating from combat in 1 piece from mid 1944 till the end of the war

@williamzk9083

5 ай бұрын

The He 162 was produced because it was calculated there would not be enough fuel to run a force of Me 262. Early He 162 had a full thrust endurance of 30 minutes at sea level (very little) but this grew to 35 minute and finally 40 minutes with improved tankage in the wings. Endurance at 30000ft was over 2 hours due to the thinner atmosphere

Another interesting bit is the lack of ferry pilots meant that there was more than a few 262s that sat around and were "acquired" by other units than what the paperwork had stated. I recall that Franz Stigler mentioned how JV 44 ended up getting their hands on some. I guess that also doesn't help with figuring out how many 262s actually were even delivered to units

@aozzya1563

4 ай бұрын

In fact Franz Stigler himself stole an extra 262 for JV44

Dan Sharp's book is brilliant! It debunks many myths and starts from scratch with outstanding archival research which is second to none. Due to lack of activity on the project (Messerschmitt was focussing on the 209 and 210 problems) production didn't even start until 1944.

Thank you for another video german Ryan Golsing.

.. a German with a genuine sense of humour.. amazing. Wunderbar work Chris - Frohe Weihnachten

My father traveled in western Germany and saw fighters tucked into the forest alongside the roads. Because he spoke so many lauguanges he was assigned in helping round up prisoners and focused on SS personal. He also went to underground manufacturing lines. to seek out some French slave labors hiding within the complex.

And after seeing the build quality and design of the 162... those 1500 man hours make a lot of sense. And these late war 262's already look rough. Another informative video on the logistical side of dispersed production and assembly. A complex and difficult task under the best of conditions, unthinkable in their conditions against such odds.

13:15 - Looking at the USAAF stuff from the autumn of 1944 it is pretty clear the American's got the measure of the ME262 quickly, figuring out it was not very maneuverable and realizing that their fighters had an excellent change against the 262 so long as they got the drop on them. The Kommando Nowotny experiment worked both ways, giving the Allies experience against the Jet before it was able to operate in any kind of numbers. Once you get past the significant over-claiming of kills made by ME262 pilots (which unfortunately many authors have treated the claims made as being accurate so the impact of the ME262 is skewed), its clear that during the height of the German jet attacks in March and early April 1944 the ME262 attack formations were normally being engaged and broken up by P51 fighter sweeps before they got to the bombers. The only days when ME262s made any notable number of kills (that can be matched with recorded US losses) was when they were able to use clouds or contrails to sneak through the fighter screens. But most of the time the US reports talk about how the jet formations were intercepted and broken up before they reached the bombers, and when look at the verified US losses (not the claims made by the 262 pilots), it is usually a handful of losses at best the ME262s inflicted. What was especially painful for the ME262 units was given the numbers employed, their own loss rates were high so there was significant attrition they were suffering, as bad as anything German daylight fighters in early 1944 had been suffering. Lack of numbers and the quality and quantity of Allied fighter escorts basically neutralized the ME262s that were able to be put in the sky. If the ME262 force had been much larger, then I think the qualities of the jet would have really had an impact. But like many things for Germany, too-little-too-late.

@janrobertbos

5 ай бұрын

...tell that to the crews of the bombers they downed.................

@kellyshistory306

5 ай бұрын

@@janrobertbos ...sure.................

@truereaper4572

5 ай бұрын

Do you have any exact proven figures of just how much kill counts were exaggerated?

@emperorfancypants2512

5 ай бұрын

Keep in mind many me262 were destroyed on the airfield, so this skews their "shot down" rate

@kellyshistory306

5 ай бұрын

@@emperorfancypants2512 True, but as much as possible I avoided adding those losses into the totals. From what I could find in the books, JG7 had about 40 losses where the causes were specified: -5 shot down by gunners on Bombers -9 Shot down in combat with fighters at high altitude -3 shot down while landing -8 bounced and shot down while climbing to attack the bombers -6 losses due to accidents, collisions, mechanical failures. The remaining 17-44 losses don't have specific causes, but the books suggest they were all lost on combat missions and were not planes sitting on the ground. That said some books have more losses listed than others, especially for April 10th when the 8th AF went after the ME262 airfields and the biggest "jet battle" of the war occurred. Still though it wasn't the losses so much as the claims I looked at. A lot of books talk about the ME262 shooting down several hundred aircraft, but I just can't see it from the loss records (MACR's, INTOPs reports, Mission folders). The other ME262 units were JV44 and a bunch of fighter bomber units (KG(J)54 for instance), but JV44 shot down less than a dozen aircraft that there is evidence for, and the KG ground attack units tended to suffer very heavy losses because they flew at low level, and were rarely used as fighters.

I only wish I had found this channel much soon because I love anything on military aircraft.

I just watched some of your clips with Bo in Warthunder... especially your reciting of an american song, while flying a P-51 Mustang... It was hillarious! Greetings from Berlin! See you in the skies!

Clearly, the thumbnail picture should have been captioned, "Speed Limit Enforced by Aircraft"...

Hi Chris. Ich wünsche Ihnen frohe Weihnachten und alles Gute für das neue Jahr.

Thanks Chris for all your great videos ! Wishing you a very Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year !

one of the most interesting thing about the 262 production was that underground assembly plant under a mountain with rail trolley climbing the finished plane to the runway on the top... did this ever worked? Ive seen aerial pics of it but im curious if any plane made it

always been interested in these early german jets, the 262, 162 and the Ar-234. Would love more on the 234, it tends to seem mostly forgotten by most

It is interesting to compare this approach with what Boeing did with the 787. (For different reasons but avoiding strikes is a big part of it) Building parts literally all over the world (Japan, Korea, Australia, France, Italy, around the US in St Louis, Portland, Russia, south Carolina ... ending up in Seattle ) Lots of issues, parts designed by transport loads, special planes to develop and long waits for sea freight. I would guess a good portion of the huge delays of that program can be attributed to this brilliant idea :)

Thank you for producing these excellent military aviation, history videos.👍

You're talking about one Me262 wersion here to combat Allied bombing raids. But there were two types of this aircraft, differing in armament and technical details. There was a bomber version and a fighter version. Hitler ordered that for each fighter version there should be two bomber versions in production. The first units rearmed with this type were Jabo. Tactics are being developed, but first he had to fulfill other tasks. Later it was to fight bombers. But he had numerous flaws. The engine was not refined and had numerous failures. There are so many design changes during production that they can be maliciously called serial prototypes. The only advantage is that it is not picky about fuel, but here the choice was limited because the factories of cheaper synthetic fuel were destroyed. In addition, it had two engines. Piloting was difficult, like flying a brick, especially during takeoff and landing, it was almost defenseless and very susceptible to attacks. The only advantage is speed. This is not enough to change the fate of the war. Messerschmit himself claimed that it was an unfinished project that needed investment and time. The Germans had neither.

ME 262 fighting tactics were developed in lower saxony by Major Novotny on the airstrips around Bramsche, south west was Achmer, in the north Hesepe (now a refugee camp) and then north east Neuenkirchen airstrip which meant reducing risks to get caught while taking off or landing. That has happened from the spring 1944 onwards with the first fighting missions of cause. These were dedicated air strips not along the highway. If you look on nowadays maps you can think about that but there were no high ways or major streets. Achmer is nowadays small air strip and also has a model rc club, Hesepe later became a dutch patriot rocked garrison and Neuenkirchen has also been closed. Achmer has also just 1 strip anymore instead of the 3 in a triangle shape it had when built in the late 30s. The air strips were defended by 8.8 FLAK batteries operated by older pupils among of them our later teacher in elementary school who described that they were regular pupils still in school with bikes they had to jump on to ride to the FLAK position on the hill of Bramsche where they had about 6 canons on 6 sites which were separated and existed till the mid 1990s when they found ammunition and removed those all. When we were kids we were playing there quite often 600 m away from our homes along hollow paths and among bushes and what not. Those were days of real adventures even though we back then had no real clue what had happened there before. The canons were long gone, the windows were no longer there, just beams and parts of a flat angled roof which back then was the biggest danger cause you could break through the roof.

Always an Outstanding video and presentation.

Could You make a video about ww2 german aviation companies less known by the larger public ( such as Fieseler)

Ich liebe diese video´s so sehr, einfach angenehm zu zugucken

Great video! The four volumes of Smith and Creek about the Me 262 are a amazing insight on the development and later combat of thiy fighter. (I have them!)

I am proud to say that I have watched all of the videos mentioned in the description.

One of the biggest issues with the 262, was the pilots. Most of the experienced Luftwaffe pilots had years of A2A fighting with piston engine fighters where maneuverability and getting on the enemy’s “6” was the measure of success. Alternatively there were the new pilots who had no experience, but whose flying tried to match the experienced pilots. These techniques were completely wrong for the new jets. The only way the superior speed of the 262 could be exploited was with boom’n’zoom tactics. If this tactic was used no allied plane could follow. However, as soon as the 262 attempted to maneuver, and got slow, it was easy pickings. Also the four 30mm cannons had a relatively slow rate of fire and poor trajectory. This was fine for attacking a relatively stationary bomber (the 262 primary target), but very difficult to hit a maneuvering allied fighter.

@paint4r

5 ай бұрын

I think the bigger issue is the lack of experienced pilots, not pilots' experience working against them. A pilot with experience in a piston-fighter would have a better grasp of its capabilities compared to the Me 262, and would therefore understand what not to do against one - namely, to dogfight. A new pilot would not understand this, and might also blindly believe he was given some kind of wunderwaffe that was far superior to the opposition. The issue of lacking pilot experience could be aided with better training, but the Luftwaffe repeatedly shortened the training courses to pump out pilots faster. However, this is not a perfect fix - if you're interested, the channel Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles made an excellent video about how experience is the most important factor in a fighter pilot's performance. The video is called "WW2 Fighter Pilot Experience Levels." In short, I think more combat experience is always beneficial, even in the case of a shift from piston-engined to jet-engined fighter.

@TR4Ajim

5 ай бұрын

@@paint4rwell, an experienced fighter pilot, especially one that has survived many years of combat, has learned to react instinctively to get that split second advantage. Having to turn off those well ingrained reactions, and fight a new way, with a dramatically new aircraft, is a tall order. Especially with an enemy that will pounce on the slightest mistake. Yeah, I’m familiar with Gregg’s channel. He’s got some good videos describing the difficulty experienced airline pilots had initially with modern “smart” cockpits. Pilot reactions to critical issues often came in conflict with new procedures that were in came contrast to their prior “stick and rudder” experience/training.

@piotrmalewski8178

5 ай бұрын

Bf 109 could not match manuverability of Spitfire or even Hurricane. Boom and Zoom was known and used by at least some German pilots. They also saw this technique used by 303 Squadron.

@TR4Ajim

5 ай бұрын

@@piotrmalewski8178 at the beginning of the war. the 109 and spitfire were very closely matched. The spitfire only had an advantage in a continuous rate turn. The 109 had the advantage in the vertical. Also the pilots of early spitfires were hampered somewhat in maneuvering by its carburetors (the 109 was fuel injected). It really came down to pilot vs pilot and who had positional advantage. The Hurricane was outclassed by the 109 in all aspects with the exception of instantaneous turn. True boom&zoom is a function of air speed, so while that technique can be used by any aircraft with an altitude advantage, the 262s much greater speed in all regimes made that technique especially potent.

I read an article recently about the engineering issues, strategic decisions and politics that delayed the introduction of the Me262. One thing I found hard to believe was Willy Messerschmitt sabotaging the production by encouraging Hitler to prioritise the production of the me209B. As this was basically an me109 with an new engine, the changes to the production line would be minimal. It seems money was more important than winning a war.

@piotrmalewski8178

5 ай бұрын

The biggest saboteur was Hitler himself who pushed for untested solutions and stupid design changes. Early jet, especially twin engine one, was as much of a mistake as Tiger II tank which was a result of other 'brilliant' input from Hitler.

Great vid Chris , Me 262s are really interesting aircraft,how about a vid on KG200 ops ,facinating stuff .

Can someone explain why I think of this as a christmas video? It sounds daft, but axis aircraft production just seems to be a natural holiday season topic.

Great rundown on the predicament of the German jets. Its really apparent in some old photos how poor the build quality was. Even the V-2s looked like they were made of papier-mâché! Question: who designs your iconography? Do you do it yourself? Really fun and clever.😊

@silmarian

5 ай бұрын

Stylistically, it’s very similar to Military History Visualized. I know he and Bernhard are friends and have worked together on several projects, so that may be his source of icons. If you haven’t watched MHV, I highly recommend it!

What are your thoughts? Most people call the 262 the world's first jet FIGHTER. But based on what I have read and watched about it, it would seem to me to fall more under the role of an interceptor. It would seem that one of its biggest failings as a fighter was its lack of maneuverability, including problems with excelleration and deceleration. Two thing that didn't matter much vs a b17 or b24 but would vs a p51 or a spitfire

@neurofiedyamato8763

5 ай бұрын

Fighters is a umbrella term. Interceptor is a type of fight like a dive bomber is still a bomber. What you are thinking of is a air superiority fighter which even with less than ideal maneuverability, it still can be one. Me262 turns well at high speeds. Its low speed where it struggled iirc. And you would want to use its superior speed and thrust to win. More a energy fighter than a turn fighter.

@piotrmalewski8178

5 ай бұрын

What's interesting is that Germans already new that twin engine fighter may be good as an interceptor but is helpless against single engine fighters (BF 110 case). I'm guessing they wanted to rely on speed but underestimated the Mustang.

@rodofiron100

5 ай бұрын

Me110, me210, me410, just. All had the same problems. They were great, some even awsome as interceptors, but terrible against single seat fighters. If you play warthunder you can get an idea of why, even if you can get a speed advantage against the single seater by diving on it, you better kill it on the first pass or it will kill you very quickly.

Production methods are important. 1million people total of US aviation production. Germany had 1 million just on me-262

Too Germanys misfortune not developing four engine aircraft ; a step up from the Kondor airplaine.

Resources of all types are needed and you only have a finite amount.

@MilitaryAviationHistory >>> Great video...👍

Jedes mal schön, wenn ich ein Video mit Heimatbezug sehe. Wohne nur einen kurzen Fußmarsch vom ehemaligen Waldwerk Gauting (das irgendwie immer in Hagelstadt verortet wird, obwohl es damals wie heute auf unserem Gemeindegebiet liegt), das ja bis zum Einmarsch der Amerikaner unentdeckt geblieben ist. Leider sieht man heute außer einigen weiter als gewöhnlich auseinanderstehenden Baumreihen mit leichten Senken dazwischen, einer Sickergrube für die Latrinen und dem Fundament einer kleinen Bürobaracke nicht mehr viel davon. Und auch vom Werk Obertraubling, auf dessen Fläche nach dem Krieg die Stadt Neutraubling erwachsen ist, sieht man leider nicht mehr viel, außer dass die Hauptstraßen auf der Strecke der damaligen Landebahnen verlaufen und reichlich Fliegerbomben und Munition gefunden werden.

What with the decentralisation of production it's almost as if Germany emulated Japanese war manufactoring, which had always been dependent on the output of small workshops.

@richardvernon317

5 ай бұрын

I would be surprised if the Germans did not do some amount of sub contracting of component manufacture of Aircraft (and everything else) before the War. It is pretty standard within the western industrial world at the time and is still in use even today. It was in Britain in 1939. My Dad was a Toolmaker at my Grandfather's Engineering firm for all of his working life and the head of the Press division which produced Metal Pressings for a wide range of stuff ranging from Office Furniture, to Electric Cookers to Lawn Mowers (top end stuff was refurbishing aircraft brake discs, making fuel filters for road oil tankers and making parts for Race Car engines from Formula Ford to Formula One V8's!!). The problem with weapons production for the big stuff is there are many parts which only have to be produced in numbers of like 500 a month, which takes 2 men, two days to do. For example, a special lock washer, which takes 8 operations to make from a sheet of mild steel (Cut roll of Steel into strips on a Guillotine, produce metal blanks out of the strips. form the blank into shape required, trim the excess metal, put a hole in it, deburr the sharp edges, heat treat it and coat it with some kind of protective material to stop it rusting). The big firms are not going to do that in their main production plant. They will sub contract that work out to small light engineering firms as they don't have to mess around changing tools and setting up presses for each operation, or storing the tooling in dry clean conditions when not in use for most of the month. The small firm may not be able to do things like Heat Treatment's or Coatings, but there other small firms who can do cost effective short runs in such operations. Most of these small firms are dotted around the small industrial areas in the Cities and could be in the smaller town. The big firms contracting work out to the cheapest bidder or some bloke they know from the past. in 1943 the Germans suffered something called Zulieferungskrise (sub-components crisis). This was a shortage of parts caused mainly by the small firms than made them being blasted and roasted by Bomber Command's Area Attacks on the Ruhr. One thing I would love to know is how the German Machine Tools reacted to being Cooked by 4lb Incendiary bombs. Those tools were normally heat treated to make them tough enough to cut and shape metal, but soft enough to not be brittle and break. They were very resistant to blast damage form HE bombs, but I suspect being heated up to a very high temperature and not being cooled correctly didn't do them any good in having a long life span if recovered after an attack. As a side note, in 1978, I started working the for my Grandad at age 11 on Saturday mornings in his factory doing various press and deburring operations, mostly with hand presses and pushing bits of metal through a belt sander. Both the two hand presses and the belt sander he had were pre-WW2 devices and my Grandfather had them in a shed in his garden. He came home from work on most nights with a bag full of metal Blanks, after he had his dinner, he tended the food growing in the garden and then went into the shed with my dad (who was just coming up to 10 years old at the end of the War in 1945) and turned those bits of metal into parts for aircraft, which he took back to work in the following morning. The tooling he had made at work (he was a toolmaker) and some of his co-workers did the same. He made so much money doing this extra work at home that he was able to form his own tool making compony in 1945. According to my Dad, the parts were for Spitfires. What Kid wouldn't want to do that!!

Whilst there was a cost to decentralised production, the fact that there was any level of production post 1943 suggests that it was essential.

w/d biz merry xmas

I wonder about another aspect of this. This decentralisation and moving production to such locations, almost demands the need for truck transport instead of rail transport. That in turns means using fuel. Now I know about the wood gas generators employed in large numbers. Still, I can imagine this would use up some precious petrol/diesel and of course the trucks desperately needed at the front. To me, it seems to be another factor in the puzzle. You create jet fighters yes, but what do you lose?

Hey, nice Video! Im still not Sure, but....Du bist doch Bismark von Botime Gaming oder?🤔

I muust say, I am not an expert. But my father was from WW2 till 1957 (with a sabbatical) on the drawing board at de Havilland. Anyway, from what I have heard, the 262 was a good idea but was very poorly contsructed and the Junkers Jumo had a life span of max 36 hours - mostly less. While the Gloster Meteor with RR engines was far more reliable. Although the two never really met.

You don't happen to have a source for accurate and detailed Ho-229 plans do you?

Psh they were never ever able to get around the Skunkworks B-17G-C/GIGACHAD model. They knew it was over. 100 million horse power per engine and the first prototype is long believed to be crash landed on Pluto after an uncontrolled climb never to be seen again.

12:17 secret task?

Thanks!

@MilitaryAviationHistory

5 ай бұрын

Thanks very much, appreciate it!

Speed limit enforced by aircraft

What! No Blue Oyster Cult "Me-262"?😂

Forced labor is never a great Idea for any complex machines.

The jets are there to shoot at any car moving too slow.

How does the decenteralised ME262 production square up with the current meme that Allied bombing campaigns where shit?

Wait... They "shifted" to jets? Most of us might remember they where out of prop planes???

Speed limit enforced by aircraft 1945 edition

It was not complicated enough I guess?

makes you winder what if Germany invaded poland in 1950 with all this tech and being fresh how WW2 would have turned out? But yeah I jknow the nazis had to go sooner rather then later for a whole host of reasons but still...

Merry Christmas, Chris. Thanks for your videos. Thank goodness Hitler had become a drug addict and the good doctor plying him with the “stuff” turned out to be the best friend the Western Allies ever had. That, and Ultra. Of course, anybody would have slipped into a depression knowing that unless they did something drastic, they would wind up, pickled, literally, by Stalin.

"Winter" is 6 months away here. :)

I've never understood what possible contribution slave labor could make to precision machining and casting. I actually can't think of ANY airplane production step that could be done by untrained slaves other than maybe pushing the completed unit out the door or sweeping up the place....

If the ME262 were came in 1943 the war would have a different tide. Also Germanys industry was weak at the end so they couldnt produce much of them, the allies Just throw in massive amounts of ressources,,

@richardvernon317

5 ай бұрын

Wrong!!! Alfred Price did a "What If the Me-262 had entered full scale service in 1943" and the results would have been not much more different. B-17 would have been dropped for the B-29. USAAF would have gone to night attack. A major Counter Airfield Campaign would have been done, the War lasts until July / August 1945 and Germany is defeated, just before they get Nuked.

0:07 The Japanese in 1945 be like:

They had the technology but not enough weapons. The allies, specially the USA, out produced Germany. How many Sherman's tanks were built vs German tanks.

I love engineering. I don't like how we are mouth strapped to saying, Germans, workers, .......... I know it is KZread but we need to be able to say what it was

Just proves the so often said "The Allied bombing Campaign had no effect on German Industry"!

No one would dare challenge the ME-262 on the Autobahn. Where would one buy used?

Re manufacturing out put, the allies were producing several hundred of all types per day…

The chanel must be renamed... To Military Aviation History Visualised....😁

It is ironic that the USA is ignoring the lesson of WWII when it comes to wonder weapons. The tiny numbers of F-22’s built due to cost is a perfect example. There is no way 186 aircraft is going to be able to protect anything but a very small piece of airspace. Thank goodness we have the F-35 and also the NGAD fighter on the way.

Germany didn’t win and never could have won. All the allies had to do was not surrender. The outcome was both predictable and inevitable for all the previously stated reasons. Decentralized production, coupled with a lack of appropriate raw materials and manpower meant the needed numbers could never have been produced. Even if they had thousands of them, they had neither enough fuel nor experienced pilots to employ them. They were vulnerable on takeoff and landing. Finally their airfields were on constant attack. They won until the allies geared up in late 1942. Then it was a slow then ever increasing decline until the inevitable end.

@watcherit1311

5 ай бұрын

Hindsight smartness... At the time it was not so simple to predict the future. Unity (and will to fight) of allies is not guaranteed (especially, when opinions of voters are involved).

@ronhudson3730

5 ай бұрын

Churchill and Roosevelt realized this very early on. They had the channel and the Atlantic ocean between them and the Germans. The Germans were mainly a land power backed up by a tactical airforce, with no, other than boats, real navy. They had finite production capabilities and would have been known at the time. France gave in when it didn’t need to. Britain did not, thus ensuring ultimate defeat. Any of this would have been known by the economists and production planners at the time. British public support never really wavered. American public support was rock-solid the second the last bomb fell on Pearl Harbour. I’m sure there were plenty of clear-eyed people in German politics, industry and the military who realized the same thing at the time. But it’s hard to argue with a fanatical, deranged dictator and those who put him in and kept him in power, without losing your head. At El Alamein in 1942 and at Midway, also in 1942, the die was cast. Germany would have fared much better becoming the premier economic power in Europe.

Nothing to add, I'm just leaving a comment to please the KZread gods.

If Germany switched population size, land mass, and resources with America then Germany would of regained whatever they wanted 😆 their problem was poor leadership in declaring war with the King Kong on the planet USA! They also sucked at logistics which America excelled!

Nazis didnt like logistics.