Daft Punk threw a wrench in the Loudness War with their last album- basically mastered it for vinyl and left it alone. Beautiful record, zero ear fatigue.

To clarify some points made in this video: - The true-peak meter is to catch inter-sample peaks, or the peaks that happen between two sample points that otherwise go unnoticed on a regular meter, since the two samples are both under 0dbFS but not the crest that rises between the two samples. The drawing he was making made it look like de-clipping, or that a clipped waveform will get re-drawn with a new crest on top in the analog domain. This is not the case - he meant to draw the crest between two sample points, not to say that these will be added later during playback, but rather to show that these crests may already exist between various samples and are simply unnoticed by a regular meter. The -1dbFS headroom allows for these inter-sample peaks, as well as gives headroom for transcoding. - Spotify does not attenuate any of your files that you upload. The only loudness attenuation happens when the user's client has "normalize volume" enabled in their preferences, as well as a "volume level" setting below the normalize option. A simple test will confirm that when normalize is disabled, loud tracks are very loud - far beyond -14 LUFS or anything close to that. For example, try "Hibou - Above Us" on Spotify and then grab a demo of Sonnox ListenHub and observe the LUFS. It's like -5 LUFS or something crazy if I recall. Extremely loud. If the listener has normalize disabled as I do, and you upload a -14 LUFS track, your songs will sound quieter in comparison to most louder tracks since nothing is modifying the music. However, when normalize is enabled, the louder tracks can lose impact as they are attenuated in comparison to other songs that are not as smashed already. Also keep in mind that there are no loudness settings on the web version of Spotify and so web versions will all play as loud as they were uploaded! You can test this to confirm as well. If you have the Spotify app open while you also have the web player open, the web player will inherit the loudness of the app until the app is closed. Close the Spotify app, go back to the web player, and the song will be played back at full loudness.

@supersymmetry100

Жыл бұрын

Agree. There are some concept errors in this video.

@bobsdock

Жыл бұрын

Very valuable information. Thank you for sharing 👍

@AuroraBPolaris

Жыл бұрын

100% with you on the Normalize Volume settings on Spotify. As long as Spotify (and other streaming services) have this settings as an option, I cannot think why people would want to master and export their final track at -14LUFS for example. Mind you, i am not hating on those who do, i just don't find it attractive as an option since electronic dance music (in which i specialize) competition is so far away from this standard still. Good insight on the Web and App based version though. Did not know this.

@Filip_K_Shapethesound

Жыл бұрын

Good mix won't lose impact even after normalisation, although it might be genre dependant. In busy metal, which I mix most of the time, if you balance and process tracks correctly (mostly dynamic-wise) I start to limit peaks only around -9, so when I'm near -6 I'm limiting some sources just close to -0,5. Anyway I use normalisation on spotify and believe me that none of the extreme mixes lose their impact. The only scenario where I'd believe that impact could be lost (in metal at least) is the case where someone mixes really loud from the start and loses perspective.

@7thResonance

Жыл бұрын

Wait, the true peak thing. Isn't he demonstrating what analogue converters do to the flat part of the signal? AFAIK, the flat part is like a square wave which depending on the duration, it can have frequencies higher than Nyquist. Some analogue converters are not designed to handle this, so it creates artifacts (both from not being able to handle it and having a low pass filter or shaping it to be inside Nyquist).

There's just one big true here.....When BIG top charts engineers stop doing their masters at -8 / -9 LUFS and begin to follow the platform specs, everyone else will follow (including me)! Until then, we'll always be in the loudness war! That is.

Bruh, if you ain’t clippin’ you ain’t pimpin’

@robertonunez4239

Жыл бұрын

Cuz pimpin’ ain’t easy 😂

@princetheelegendmusic

Жыл бұрын

😂😂

@austinhayman7023

Жыл бұрын

I'm clipping, but I got no b.....😑

@JakeyWakey

Жыл бұрын

For real. I mix loud af. But still export at -1cause eff appul

@johnb6723

Жыл бұрын

You are a silly boy. Period.

The basic vibe I feel here is people's insecurity in wanting to be famous or signed. Having been signed 20 odd years ago and now being retired I'll give you my take on this. All A&R peeps will use a volume knob when hearing a bunch of demos. They just will. They are not idiots. They won't hear a bullshit track that's -6db rms in old terms and go "wow that's the loudest track sign it nowww".. give me a break. Personally mastering some later releases I chose -14 and -1tp and it gives me much more satisfaction in hearing crisp snares and punching kicks and in general more sparkle.

Absolutely love this video!!! When i started out over 20 years agao i never gave a crap about being loudest. When i got back into music production it was all about being loud especially in the edm realm. I jumped all over it. I ended up making some of the worste sound music i had ever made trying to keep up with being loud. Over the last few years ibe gone back to just making music i like not caring as much as how loud it gets. I focus now on my tracks sounding good an more coherent.

@st33Npuist

Жыл бұрын

This! 😘

Very cool how you apply empirical data to a creative science. Results need to be measurable, repeatable, and most importantly-audible!

BRAVO man! I like when you do longer videos and talk about stuff other than plugins.

There was a great Sound On Sound (magazine) article on exactly this issue some few years back 'The End of the Loudness War?' (February 2014).. and in my opinion one of the best articles to appear in Sound On Sound.. an absolute fantastic read. And yes! The ending of the loudness war does mean that producers can breathe easy and produce music that has wide dynamic range once again.

@hyperactivists9390

Жыл бұрын

that was a good article

@InYourDreams-Andia

Жыл бұрын

Good article.. Agree too, dynamic range is where it's at

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

This article is just a classic.

I can say, that one thing, that drives people to get stuff loud to the level you mentioned is a competition of other releases on labels, that they are trying to get signed on. For example standard loudness on a lot of Liquid DnB labels is around -8 to -7 LUFS. People listening to the demos take the loudness into account. It is hard to steer away from pushing stuff loud when you are basically conditioned to do it since the beginning.

@kodykindhart5644

Жыл бұрын

Loudness does matter tho At work they have to crank it just to hear and some songs don’t cut it We are not going to keep adjusting the level to hear at least not while working Especially some of the dynamic range differences Too quiet and it disappears

@urigeheadmot1196

Жыл бұрын

-7 Lufs is easy

@davidpereira4455

Жыл бұрын

I believe that labels look for dynamics/loudness ratio, like the dynamics preserved within that loudness target. A better example can be seen in Neurofunk, where generally you see more filters "movement" compared to Liquid.

@iamgeorgesears

Жыл бұрын

@@davidpereira4455 I agree and perhaps I could have write that in a better way. Although I still think, that releasing electronic music at the top tier level labels slowly conditions one to push it loud - sometimes way too far. I have been in discussions on GS forums and there was a interesting talk about this topic. Some of the artists and engineers there said, that not shooting for the hot masters basically means career suicide in certain genres like hip-hop for example. I have fallen in the same mindset when making my own music - coming from trance and house genres, all thanks to the competition and release ambitions. They - the labels - need DJs to propagate the releases and they often test the track in a mix, and if it dips in loudness to much, it is a problem - DJs might consider that a bad sound and not suport it.

@davidpereira4455

Жыл бұрын

@@iamgeorgesears Yes man i agree 100%. Sucks that our creative mixing gets limited like this. I wish you all the luck and ambition you can summon up 💪

Thanks for this video, it never hurts to hear this many times until people start getting it!

there are so many songs that I love that happened to be -7lufs or louder...and I'm talking about major artists... good songs with awesome production and mix will sound good on any loudness threshold

@AboveEmAllProduction

Жыл бұрын

Nevermind songs there's whole genres at that loudness

@gulagwarlord

Жыл бұрын

There are great tracks that hit even -3 LUFs... plenty. This is a conversation about genres and taste... either you like these genres or you don't. A number on your LUFs meter shouldn't be what guides decisions. If you are making loud music, it's going to be loud. And yes, there is a such thing as loud music... has very little to do with mastering limiters lol but this debate never ends.

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

No, they won't. As soon as inter sample peaks appear the fun is over.

Very well said, I just downloaded the pdf and I'm gonna read it and seek further info because it's a very interesting and dividing subject. Keep up the amazing work, your channel is GOLD!

@Whiteseastudio

Жыл бұрын

It's a bit weird that it is dividing. Standards are made to unite and make things easier for everybody 😅

@Mansardian

Жыл бұрын

​@@Whiteseastudio You are right, but imagine being told you are doing it somehow "wrong" and get caught at being ignorant... Guess for some personalities this is hard to swallow. 🤷‍♂️ Florian Camerer was my teacher back then in 2007 (the guy who co-invented those new loudness norms and measuring) and mastering at decent- lower- levels was so normal for me that I used to watch that loudness war from a distance, scratching my head.

@rjaymusic6282

Жыл бұрын

@@Whiteseastudio Yeah I totally agree, but people who have been doing it their own way for years and actually know what they're doing, a lot of times claim that those ''rules'' are ''crap'' because they could possibly ''kill'' individual preference and signature and stuff like that. Tbh i don't understand no of that, I think most of the times giving shit to these ''regulations'' is a way to boost your own ego and to feel like you ''know better than them..

It is not only about loudness. Loudness has it's sound. Driving the clipper and limiter harder produces more aggressive sound due to pops and cracks and also side result is lower dynamic range - compression. So if you master at 6 lufs and upload it to spotify no problem, it will automaticaly turn down whole song to average -14 lufs... but you will still retain aggressivnes of a mastering pushed hard.

With dance/club music, it's important to match the loudness of other producers because 1. It's not really comfortable for DJs to always match the volume for every song; 2. Your song, no matter how good it is, if it's not mastered properly, it will sound bad being played in the set after a louder and better-mastered one. I've been a producer for more than 10 years and also always been obsessed with the loudness issue. However, eventually it's very difficult for amateurs to mix/master tracks properly and make them sound good and loud, so in a way, sounding loud but good is like a threshold that separates pros and amateurs. I always had to match the loudness level of my productions to famous tracks, or they just wouldn't work when I play them, and it hasn't been easy. I've been a DJ much more than a producer. I get a track I love and it's quieter. I'm thinking, ok, just to remember to raise the volume up, however, it just doesn't worked after most tracks, even with the volume up. I know, you'll say, oh but the mix was not good, if the mix were good, it wouldn't have to be loud. But having to match the track's loudness to famous songs actually forces you to do a good mix and master because there's no choice. Also if I enjoyed the track, then the mix was not necessarily bad. I think, there is much more to commercial loudness than just standing out on the radio.

@sqcaraudio

Жыл бұрын

1. Noone listens to radio. 2. I hear a cheesy dance track that's too loud with not dynamic range I turn it down to match my vibe, then it feels lifeless because it has no dynamics and I skip it. 3. You'll only get love for your music if you have good ideas, melody, structure, philosophy etc. 4. Streaming is set to auto level then my ipad auto levels etc. 5. Get off the loudness train.

@Tiban

Жыл бұрын

if you as a DJ are so concerned with loudness matching every track then it sounds like you should add a limiter to your signal chain and destroy every track’s dynamics on your end

@TheGurner1

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it's true - but famous house tracks often come in around -9.5dB which is not too crazy loud

@bananermat3798

Жыл бұрын

@@sqcaraudio He's not talking about radio. Not liking some music is fine, but the point of the OP remains the same. Some genres have loudness-competition built into them due to the nature of the industry and the venues we play at. Some genres are worse than others, mainly bass-oriented EDM, but loudness is important for most DJs that play at venues larger than 500 people. Clubs skimp on the systems and you have to work with the limits they have. Sadly that means some tracks won't work in context of others. I'd love higher end PAs and more dynamics in the tracks, but c'est la vie. Optimally you'd have masters for clubs and masters for streaming, but who can afford two masters of every track.

@Tiban

Жыл бұрын

@@bananermat3798 can’t djs just use a limiter to loudness match on the fly instead ? i imagine that’s what most french DJs in the early 2000 did when incorporating 70s funk records into their sets

This conversation is tiring, and it's hard to explain to people that -3 or -4 LUFs is literally the sound of the arrangement and sound selection in these loud genres. It's not just a trick you do on your 2 bus... so it's a completely different conversation, one about style and tastes. You will never be able to make a Beatles track as loud as a tearout track because the arrangement and sounds won't allow for it. When we use synths or whatever to make our sounds and then process them to make them sausagey and fat... we are preparing to make a loud track from the very start with very full waveforms. If there's any "secret" to hitting those ridiculous loudness levels and still sounding clean and dynamic, it is to limit your subs and clip everything else as a general rule. You can do this with something like Kilohearts snap heap/multipass. If you arrange properly in heavy bass music, choose the right sounds (saturated and clipped/limited @ the track and bus level), you can hit -6 LUFs and still have dynamics and punch without much of a difference in quality with or without a mastering limiter/clipper. Getting to -4 LUFs from there isn't difficult with certain bass music genres/tempos. People that gripe about Loudness usually seem to mix everything but heavy bass music genres and aren't producing bass music themseleves. Done right, one can get most of the way there with arrangement and proper sound selection alone. There are many amazingly produced tracks out there hitting even -3 LUFs during the drops and it still sound clean, as proof.

I bought all the dB on my DAW’s meter and I’m damn well gonna USE all the dB.

@AutPen38

Жыл бұрын

The red lights at the top of the meter are the main cause of climate change. Save the planet, master at -14.

Thanks for this video! We need more of these to help educate people!

I check the website tunebat to see what the lufs are for my favorite tracks usually they all land somewhere between -8 & -6 lufs, the random access memories album which is one of my favorite albums ever actually had an average of -10/-9 While artists like Kaytranda come in hot at about -7/-6 so if the pros are loud I’d say be loud as well just don’t go overboard

@LeonardoLima-nk4fv

Жыл бұрын

Hi Brain, where I can see the lufs on the tunebat?

@bobsdock

Жыл бұрын

I agree but will also say that there is nothing stopping you from making different mixes for streaming per their recommendations and a loud one for physical media. If you only want to make one- go the RAM route and you'll be safe.

This was very helpful, thank you!

I have no interest in mastering louder or quieter than anyone else. I LIKE the sound of loud as shit, and I LIKE the sound of very dynamic. I just do what the track needs, or what I want to do. I make intense aggressive music a lot of the time, so I master very loud. Of course I take a lot of care of transients, but I saturate a lot, and I mix so that there isn't much gain reduction needed in mastering. But when I master a smooth jazz track, or drone or something, there isn't a whole lot of dynamics reduction. So, for me, it's more of an emotional resonance with the music, and an intuition, rather than some kind of competition. The competitive aspect of loudness is so so so dumb. It's all ego. Screw that stuff.

@austinhayman7023

Жыл бұрын

If it fits, do it. Just an aesthetic that some people and producers enjoy

@thomasberdal3049

Жыл бұрын

Facts.

@LoveItDirtyOffroad

Жыл бұрын

Sometimes its too dynamic and leaves me turning up the quiet parts. Theres a happy medium for a bit of squashing

@chadmichael_

Жыл бұрын

100 percent

@DionIsaiah

Жыл бұрын

Right on!

This is super helpful information, great video.

The ONLY reason streaming platforms request -1.0dBTP is due to intersample peaks caused by SRC algorithms in streaming codecs. In reality, these can exceed 6dB or more in some circumstances, but Apple pragmatically chose -1.0dBTP as part of Mastered For iTunes and streamers followed suit. Many argue that intersample peaks are inaudible, which is why some mastering engineers continue to use -0.3dBFS (i.e. some still rely on Full Scale and ignore True Peak, which is essentially an oversampling algorithm to predict intersample peaks). The main reason for adopting -1.0dBTP for WAV masters is due to subsequent issues with lossy codecs (i.e. SRC algorithms when converting WAV files to other formats). This doesn't completely eliminate all intersample peaks, but it's sufficient for most. In other words, adopting -1.0dBTP is a very useful, pragmatic metric for multiple reasons, but some diehards disagree.

@louisrmusic

Жыл бұрын

Intersample peaks are only reproduced during analog conversion. This will happen at any digital level and it simply cannot be avoided. The DAC can handle a much higher voltage than the nominal corresponding voltage for 0 dBFS, and since the current is alternative, it will always oscillate to reproduce the true peaks. Of course if you push the true peaks very high (artificially, because it’s technically impossible to do that with just music), then there will be a limit to the maximum voltage the DAC can output. AC cannot be a fixed voltage unlike DC, so it will not clip flat either, instead it will oscillate very fast and create unwanted frequencies. Please leave the true peaks alone, this is what gives you that extra volume extension that none of the streaming platforms can detect. In any case, one sure thing is that if the loudness of your song is already squashed to -9 LUFS, it isn’t a true peak of +0.5 dBTP that will increase the max volume…

@JakeyWakey

Жыл бұрын

@@louisrmusic it's you missed the whole part about Apple music. In addition to streaming artifacts, they also apply processing/limiting at -1DB

@louisrmusic

Жыл бұрын

@@JakeyWakey Limiting at -1dB Digital has nothing to do with the true peaks... True peaks will still happen when your speakers are reproducing the sound, this is inherent to the physical properties of an analog waveform...

@JakeyWakey

Жыл бұрын

@@louisrmusic yes and those have been happening since the dac and no one's been comparing or noticing audible differences, but that 1db apple chop is offensive.

@louisrmusic

Жыл бұрын

@@JakeyWakey Wait, is Apple actually limiting the audio or just normalizing it ? That’s not the same thing.

So in the past few years, I was a mixing & mastering engineer in my own studio, a mixing engineer for live band, an a system engineer for both audio company/live event/live band. I used to question my self this : how an old song like Queen's song, Beatles, Etc, can have a nice & pretty enough loud master, while keeping the dynamics, the sound quality, the staging of the mixes ? And for me, I found the answers by learning & being an audio system engineer. I finally understand how to mix & master at -14 LUFS, -1 True Peak, loud enough without losing the quality. I don't know if its the correct way, but when i compare my final master with those old songs references, i think i make it. And i think that, yes, mixing is about art, taste. But we should also think about the logic, the science behind it. Without understanding the science, we could make a good art, but not a masterpieces. That's my opinion.

Serban mixes are -6 and true peaks usually above 0 and his mixes aren't bad. There is no hard and fast rule! Test it out

Thank you for this video! Very useful. I aim at -0.1 and NEVER read the instructions. Now, I will do what is expected!

My favorite tool in the "level" wars is the Waves Loudness Meter. I plug this at end of my bus, so I can check the results to see if my mix is complaint "to a standard"; such as KZread, Netflix, or any other defined audio standard. The standards are defined in the presets, so all I have to do is mix the audio to taste and export to "the standards" defined for compliance.

Excellent video and much needed, thank you! A discussion is also required regarding engineers recording too hot, trying to track close to zero dBFS for some reason, daring a loud hit or note to clip, when 24 bit recording gives us so much dynamic range (144dB theoretically) that recording with a peak level of -20dBFS and then compressing that signal 20dB still leaves us with way more dynamic range to play with than any studio's noise floor. You may say this is a hangover from the analog days when hitting a preamp and tape head hard was an optimal way to work, but some younger, digital-native engineers seem to have a mania for trying to get near zero (FS), as if it's some sort of race, like they will have a weak, feeble sound if the meter never hits orange. The loudness war starts at the preamp. And starting a mix session with an iZotope RX De-clip party ain't no fun.

And yes.... this message concerning loudness very worth repeating again and again... since even though the new recommended protocols came into existence as long as 8 years ago.. still too many fledgling producers know nothing of a) the importance of this and b) the meaning of it.. This whole issue is actually an absolute First and guiding issue. No music producer should be without understanding LUFS... and why LUFS.

You mentioned A&R managers towards the end, and I truly believe they're the reason the loudness wars is still a thing. When they receive demos, the demos aren't played in end-user streaming services, but via some file-sharing or cloud storage services, which very much does NOT do loudness normalization. It should also be noted that soundcloud, which is where the loudness people mainly upload their music, doesn't offer loudness normalization to all its users

@kodykindhart5644

Жыл бұрын

Na it’s the listener that matters

@a2bs333

Жыл бұрын

Interesting, I noticed there were huge differences between songs loudness on SC but didn't know it was due to them not offering normalisation to all of its users. I now use Soundcloud as a place to test and compare my music to pro reference tracks.

@kodykindhart5644

Жыл бұрын

Great idea

@Lolwutdesu9000

Жыл бұрын

Soundcloud also compresses its tracks to shit. They sound awful.

Thanks, this is very informative :)

Mastering to a higher than -14 LUFS is not always about loudness itself. It has to do with dynamics perception. You want to listen to the dynamic classical record, or a medium-squashed pop song maybe a heavily compressed / limited metal or EDM record. Yes, at the end of the mastering chain you can technically turn down the file to -14 LUFS, but nobody does it bc then you'll need to use a separate master for almost every streaming platform, and loosing loudness when normalize is turned off by the end user. But they definitely don't want to hear a dynamic metal song or a squashed classical piece just because the recommendation is -14 LUFS so you'll give the snare that extra +3db peak when normalized. Also true peak -1dBFS is (as far as I know) only for the compression. When the platforms are streaming in low bitrate mp3 formats, the algorythm needs more headroom to not distort the audio.

Major 🔑:: the true secret that no on talks about is dynamic range. If your your dynamic range is between 6-8db you can make the music as loud as you want. Once you start to fall outside of that range your music will sonically sound like shit. So. If you can get it to - whatever db and your dynamic range stay in between the range I just mentioned it will be okay.

The end of the loudness wars is music to my ears. Welcome back to hi fidelity, timbre and dynamics.

Excellent video.

Great topic covered in detail. Thanks.

For bass ppl i always recommend Tipper - Mariscos it's a -10 LUFS track and great example to explain clients that by not getting -4 LUFS loud we can have more bass.

Hey Wytse, thanks so much for great and informative video's mate. One thing I would raise as a counter for discussion, is that in my experience a lot of client's still want physical production of their work and are not necessarily wanting different versions for streaming, once they approve the physical versions of the mixes. Often these client's are not new to music creation and have previous releases at a given level of loudness. In this instance you don't want yours to sound quieter than the previous album. To client's it won't make sense. This is especially present in genres like rock and metal, where loudness IS still a thing. Also I would argue that it is an art in itself to get a master to a very loud level (lets say -6 LUFS) whilst still retaining dynamic punch. At lower LUFS this is a little easier to achieve as you're not crushing the life out of it. Anyway, thanks again for the great content!

It's funny that it's actually something I found out by myself when I was still a rookie at music production 10 years ago. Back then I'd make my tracks as loud as I could, but I would always make sure I peaked at -0.1 instead of 0 because I hated seeing pixels above the limit when I opened them in Audacity. Since then, I stopped brickwalling my music, so I don't have to care about competition and how overlimiting will affect my tracks (almost always in a negative way).

Until every top 100 song on spotify really commit to loudness normalization nothing will truly change. I would love to follow the guidelines but I have to follow the popular songs that are the references and follow the client desires to match their favorite artist songs.

@Whiteseastudio

Жыл бұрын

Who was first? The Chicken or the Egg?

@rawpoweraudio

Жыл бұрын

The egg

@oscarpatxot659

Жыл бұрын

@@Whiteseastudio heheh great analogy… the endless cycle….. I hear you, but really my hands are tied. Many of my clients do reggaeton, and those are played on clubs here in my country…. All of the clients want to match the loudness of Maluma, Camilo or J Balvin, if I don’t, they find someone else that do.

@MARKMAURIKS

Жыл бұрын

Exactly!!!!

@musicproductionbrauns2594

Жыл бұрын

@@oscarpatxot659 just export different masters (e.g. "streaming" "CD" "club")

For the loudness war to truly end, normalization needs to be forced on all playback mediums, and not just commercial streaming services etc. Because as you mention, the war is still in full swing when sending songs to A&Rs that they play from their mailbox or computer folder. And since it's actually very difficult to take a dynamic mix of let's say -16 LUFS and master it to -7 LUFS without major shifts in especially the low end, many producers start pushing way early in the production/mix process, meaning the production itself is often designed around having a loud master. It's actually super common for producers to have a massive limiter on the master fader on their template, before even starting a track. And because of that, the loudness war in the A&R room is also felt in the final releases since the A&R-approved production require a mostly intact loudness to not fall apart. So even with a mix engineer that knows his/her shit, they are still trapped.

We deliver all of our music at approximately -9.8 to 10.5 LUFS and between -1.4 to -1.2 true peak (it varies a little depending on what the sounds best on the song). This gives users some room to turn it up a tiny bit in case they need it. We've had zero problems or complaints. I know our loudness is a bit higher than requested but as streaming is a smaller part of our business, I'm perfectly happy going this route.

@cedricsimonakafrozenjazz

Жыл бұрын

Hi, I am exactly in the same range of values. Seems to be a nice compromise. I tried to be at -14LUFS, but then, on sites where there is no normalization... my hiphop and metal tracks were so quiet they were skipped by the listeners...

@AboveEmAllProduction

Жыл бұрын

That's quiet. Most psytrance are -7 to -8 lufs.

@tunesquid

Жыл бұрын

@@AboveEmAllProduction We aren't making psytrance so I don't see the problem. We mostly compose ambient, ethereal, new age, some classical/cinematic pieces with other things thrown in when we get other inspiration. Writing for real estate videos or for corporate videos for example, we don't need -7 lufs. They're going to turn it down substantially anyway to get it below dialog levels.

A lot of interesting information. My only complaint is that making everything at -14 means the end user must use significantly more amplifier power on literally every playback device just in order to hear the music at a reasonable level for enjoyment. I certainly don’t appreciate “Loudness Normalization” toggles and I always turn them off. I want to hear the music at its intended listening levels, not have to crank it all the way up on my car or headphones from my phone. You can’t hear it loud enough in most situations. When done properly, you still have plenty of perceived dynamics. Don’t mistake me, I HATE overly compressed music, but when mixed properly, it can be very loud and not sound over compressed. -9 or -10 is still plenty dynamic. In fact, almost all my mixes before being mastered are sitting at -11 or -10 and barely need any final limiting to reach any sort of level and they still sound plenty punchy and dynamic. I think the loudness normalization is a scam.

@anthonywhang9951

Жыл бұрын

Totally agreed. I don't think I can enjoy the dynamic and quiet songs in a noisy subway station. Also, even if applying the loudness normalization, songs may not sound even due to different energy distribution in frequency and those psychoacoustics stuff. So why bother turning the normalization on?

Great Video brother!

In principle I agree with everything you’re saying BUT…. my competition at Sterling Sound and other Grammy Nominated mastering engineers are cranking out everything hitting-8 to -6 LUFS -8 hitting a limiter still sounds better than -14 on Spotify regardless if the normalization is on or not.

@greggiorgio1846

Жыл бұрын

This is what I have found as well.

@johannmeyer

Жыл бұрын

I work with Sterling Sound, and the masters I got from Ted are obviously louder than my mix, but also feel more dynamic and just sound better, and I can tell you, he's not shy on limiting!

@JakeyWakey

Жыл бұрын

Yup

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

Loudness is more than the number on your meters. Our brain recognizes compressed/limited signals as being loud because our ears do compress themselves if what we hearing gets too loud. So perceived loudness will always be a part of music production.

Great video, profesional and didactic. Thanks

Thank you for you in depth insight!

The thing nobody seems to want to talk about is lossy encoding and what the associated EQ changes do to peak levels. I've personally observed as much as 3dBFS additional peaks added by 192kbps mp3 encoding. Imagine what distortion that adds when your mp3 file is converted directly from a source that slams the 0dBFS mark with no gain reduction....

As a mastering engineer myself, I have been mastering to -1 true peak for a while, but 3 out of 5 times the client comes back to me and says it's too quiet. It's so frustrating, but you have to keep the client happy. I'm amazed how many people in the music and tv / film industry still don't understand the reason behind this, and still insist on having that extra dB.

@Mansardian

Жыл бұрын

In the TV industry too? they don't demand -23LUFS-i? Are you sure? Because here in Austria they obey that norm pretty strictly. I think same goes for other European countries.

@Whiteseastudio

Жыл бұрын

You can educate the client using loudnesspenalty.com for instance

@meurighailstone1999

Жыл бұрын

@@Mansardian tv mixes are -23, yes, but when I master music for tv (trailers mostly) they still want it maxed out at 0dBfs. Crazy, as they'll have to turn it down considerably.

@evoltap

Жыл бұрын

I just master to -0.3. Apple has a plugin in tool on macs (and I’m sure there’s others) that can analyze your audio in various compressed formats for peaks and overs- the more compressed the codec the more overs. I find -0.3 true peak to be safe enough, it’s not like any streaming service is really going to use 96kbps these days.

@JakeyWakey

Жыл бұрын

Tell them to fix the mix next time.

There's an old British saying that sums up the psychology of the people who smash their mixes. 'Empty vessels make the loudest noise'. So true!

Excellent speech Seriously One thing I noticed when I first started mastering to -1dBTP was the stuff I uploaded to SoundCloud simply sounded better, especially in the higher frequency range Also, if someone wants to listen to loud music, just turn the damn volume up But don't complain about your tinnitus problem...

Loudness normalized playback is great for listening to a bunch of unrelated tracks, but it ruins albums so being able to disable it is still important.

I loved this video, thank you 🙏

Then Chris Gehringer shows up with it’s Dua Lipa masters at -0.05 dBTP / -6 LUFS clipping on all True Peak meters and it sounds fantstic. Same applies to other ME such Mancini, Hutch, Merrill, etc… I think music should not follow any recommendation/specification. Love ❤️

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

As long as you listen to those songs on devices that can handle inter sample peaks you should be fine. If the converters don't have enough headroom you will get distortion. Loudness should be chosen by the listener, not the mixing engeneer. Having a standard to follow is a good thing.

@victorgarcia6912

Жыл бұрын

@@johanneschristopherstahle3395 if you hear distortion, could be bad. If you only measure distortion, where’s the problem?

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

@@victorgarcia6912 the problem is consistency. Some people will get distortion, others won't depending on their devices. Usually you want a good sound for everyone.

Excellent breakdown. Thank you. 😎👍👍

The minus 1 dB peak point is there to give the system "wiggle room". If somewhere in the chain the gain drifts above unity by .5 dB , it drifts up to -.5 dB, NOT .5 dB 'over'.

If you can get it competitively loud but still make people want to turn it up then you’re winning. Loud doesn’t have to be uncomfortable

Here the thing about loudness, I reference other tracks, and each genre has different loudness; I attach loudness to the style, which makes my track closer to the style I am looking for. Example Dubstep = -1 to -3 Luf, Pop = -8 to -12 Luf, Rock= -10 to -14 Luf. Once, I tried master dubstep to around -14, and It didn't sound the same; it sounded weak and hollow, which is why now I prefer to mix and master my song to a reference track, making life more straightforward rather than just wasting my time and money debating on something that clearly made to be broken because rule or recommendation is created to follow but also broken.

@frogify_music

Жыл бұрын

Ohh danm oldschool dubstep producers are crying now... is -1 to -3 LUFS really common in the newer stuff? I don't listen to that genre so idk but that seems very excessive, even for dubstep. Must sound horrible at that level. Up to around -6 LUFS I can still understand it, even if I prefer more dynamics. Goes the other way too though, beyond around -12 LUFS things become a bit too dynamic for most music to me and mix can fall apart with too little compression/saturation.

@zakthan

Жыл бұрын

@@frogify_music yeah the dubstep scene is that loud now but just from my perspective it change to make it more dynamics now. I check most of the .flac version of most top dubstep producer the loudness is around -1 to -3 luf and nothing under that. I use to obsess with loudness nad master song around +2 luf which is dumb but good experiment.

@zakthan

Жыл бұрын

@@frogify_music Also dubstep producer have a technique to work around the "over compress" sound which is the rule of play "one sound" at a time. Fun fact we only use compressor when need , most of the time we use a really good clipper " The Newfangle one". Also majority of the time they spend time sculpting space for the different sound. ✌🏾✌🏾

Thank You for the info.

It would be cool to see you compare and analyze some top 50 tracks regarding loudness etc

Great talk!!!

Interesting info helpful!

As a DnB (Drum and Bass) artist, I usually master my stuff at -8 LUFS because it will translate in a club and I'd rather that streaming services turn my stuff down than up. I also use Pro L in True Peak mode to minimise overshoots.

@esteelvauce7288

Жыл бұрын

what does "translate" exactly mean to you?

@bertomil

Жыл бұрын

@@esteelvauce7288 None. It is a nonsens of course. Adding this "extra dB" cannot improve the sound in any ways.

I love this subject as I had been discussing about it on forums as many loudly mastered EDM tracks are placed around -4.5dB to -5.3dB LUFs and are thusly exceeding that -1 true peak. I always refer this back to the medium as the tracks we are making are intended for live DJ performances, but are sacrificing this standard on streaming platforms, but I'd personally prefer my tracks to sound linear to the tracks I play than having to level match using MASTER level faders on a DJ mixer. Again, one needs to be aware that the sacrifice it gives when not following the guidelines.

@johanneschristopherstahle3395

Жыл бұрын

Having loudness normalization was about the best benefit when switching from DJing with CDs to using my laptop. Though I still think using CDs it was far easier to navigate through my library.

Interesting to see a mainstream discussion about this, I came to this epiphany about 3 months ago and realized the respect for dynamics over volume. I hate limiters. In essence leveling is the most important fundamental of mixing.

@sysxtem

Жыл бұрын

limiters are great, but often used incorrectly or abused

thank you for this!

I don’t think i would like spotify to remove the normalize toggle - It’s really useful to be able to reference between your daw and spotify, if you’re like me and mix into a limiter ofc. In any case it’s interesting to hear what the mix/master for a certain track actually sounds like before the loudness penalty :)

when i would master to -14LUFS i was always told the music was quieter than others on a given streaming service. i've had that listed as the reason for being left off playlist etc. if you keep enough headroom you can have a lot more perceived loudness. ALSO, the playback is only normalized in certain situations. Also, listeners have the option to turn OFF normalization... bottom line, do what needs to be done

Nice video BUT: Did you ever heard any professional mastered song even at -5db lufs distort or sound bad on any streaming service? Cause i never heard a loud master to sound bad because of that. Same about a loud song that exceed 0dbtp even on crappy speakers. If it sounds bad, is because of bad mixing and mastering, regardless TP I really appreciate your effort and demostration, so don't get me wrong, i even support you when i purchase stuff with your links. But certain theory doesn't really make any difference in real case scenario. If something doesn't sound good on streaming is because the mix/master is poorly made, not because loudness. While if you master a song at -14db -1bdtp, and in the future a new technology (no one know what will happen) will require louder masters like i.e. -10db, what does happen with these songs mastered at lower volume? They will just sound quieter, or they will be compressed to match the volume, do you really want an online service to compress your music? I would agree with you if not following these guideline give only trouble, better safe than sorry, but doesn't work like that, the most famous songs are way louder than that, and sound very good, same for my music, that it's usually way louder, and i never had any issue. I also tryed to play on the crappiest speakers i found few songs that followed the guideline along way louder songs, and they were just sounding bad when the volume was pushed hard, so from a listener prospective 0 differences. Give a track a certain loudness, also mean to give a sound pressure. That's the real point to reach a loudness, not just to have "it" the longer of the gang... I do not lose any control, about the track, because i know how to make it to sounds good regardles true peak distortion, that btw, it's inaudible. I think people who follow these specs, because someone who is not an engineer say that... are the one who loose the freedom to decide how the song should sound. There are certain genre that work good at -14db, and i would master at that loudness regardless streaming services, but other genre, just sound better at higher pressure, and yes, i compensate the volume to hear different sound pressure, to understand where is the right target for that song. So to me if you go for that specs it mean you don't even listen the songs, to bring the full potential, just go for a target someone else told you, without listening, and to me, if you do something not because your ears but because someone else told that, you are not doing a favor to music, to the listeners, and also who is paying you for the job. Last but not least, do you know spotify doesn't normalize music everywhere? artists.spotify.com/en/help/article/loudness-normalization So your song will sound quieter in these devices, and this is bad for your music, and may even hurt your artists.

@johannmeyer

Жыл бұрын

This! 100%!. At the this point White Sea studio is becoming more and more and salesman, like some other YT channel. Gotta sell these brand new-14 LUFS T shirts!

@FrankieTedesco

Жыл бұрын

@@johannmeyer Unfortunatly this is what look like. I still wanna think he really believe on what he say, but the doubt of being a salesman it's something i'm having too. Mainly because i don't have the presumption to know more about engineering than LOTS of engineer that are in the top charts, so if i have a different thoughts about them, i came with a doubt to make a mistake somewhere...not they are wrong. I think Wytse is smart enough to understand this, but he keep with this idea. Anyway everyone is free to do what they think is the best for themself, i'm not a man who judge the person, he is not killing people, so we are here to talk as passionate about mastering. I'm preparing something extreme to prove he is wrong on my channel, cause apparently, what top engineers does, is not enough to make him change thoughts (or maybe he don't wanna throw shirts away). Unfortunatly this require few weeks, but will be very fun

@johannmeyer

Жыл бұрын

@@FrankieTedesco I initially wrote another answer, way more serious and talking about the actual how the industry make records for real, I have some good experience in that. But then realize people watch his video cuz they are entertaining, it's funny to look at him getting made at a stupid knob!!

@FrankieTedesco

Жыл бұрын

@@johannmeyer Yes i know the most watch him, as others, for entertaining, i'm one of them. The bad thing happen when other people watch to learn, or trying to improve. I like to be on forums and reddit, and there are a ton of people who write "i made my song -14db -1dbtp but sound quieter" and stuff like that. It's asked multiple time weekly. I decided to start to do youtube tutorials just because of that, i was sick to give everytime the same answer, so i thought to make a video and paste to them, in the meanwhile i saw on socials those stupid graphics where you see the spectrum and in every part where to place/eq kick, bass, vocals.. same for stereo widening, high and low pass regardless the audio, and BS like that. So i keept going. After a while i started and mostly switched to plugin reviews, cause i noticed lots of youtubers are almost always positive, even when a product to me sounded very bad. So i felt the importance to share my honest review with people, for real. I already also had a very bad experience with a plugin developer who didn't like my review lol, i also made a video about that, explaining why people shoudn't trust youtubers (neither me). Long story short, people are usually around to themselfs, they don't really care about users, even if they could. I mean, i don't think Wytse need money from youtube, same as other famous youtubers, but they keep spreading misinformation, Wytse is probably the most honest, i have to say it, even if i trust him no more. Anyway i feel people who know nothing and want to learn, or people who wanna some honest thoughts on plugins before spend money, to be lost, because of that

The big reason to stop with the loudness gimmick is because it's making millions of people deaf, that includes us engineers. Taken from that same AES document : "If Portable Media Players (PMPs) are played too loudly for too long, they will cause hearing loss. The Scientific Committee on Emerging and Newly Identified Health Risks estimates that between 2.5 and 10 million people in the EU are at risk of developing early hearing loss as a result of listening to PMPs [8]. Europe was the first region to implement regulations to protect the hearing of PMP users: any PMP and headphone sold in Europe must comply with CENELEC EN 50332. In the original 2013 version, compliance was achieved by limiting the maximum gain of the device. This successfully reduced the maximum SPL from PMPs sold across Europe, but prevented quieter audio content from being played loudly enough to be heard under demanding listening conditions. A second adverse effect was that content louder than the EN 50332 Reference Test Signal still played at dangerously loud levels."

Great video 👍

I recently downloaded the european reglementation on loudness EBU Tech 3343. Very interesting to know about all this more technical stuff

One important point which missing the true peak get mostly in effect when music file will be encoded in a other format mp3,aac,oggvorbis etc. The encoding can also add little bit volume this is also why you not can see any peaking if you check your Orginal pcm wave file in DAW.

@asd2640

Жыл бұрын

yeah, but why can i never hear the difference? If you listen to it in FLAC or WAV, it doesn't peak above 0, but when you export it in MP3, there it says for example on this song I just checked, Sample peak 0.65. On some songs even higher but I never hear a difference? Also True peak is always a little higher than the sample peak, i've never seen it the other way around.

@tobiasgugger2268

Жыл бұрын

@@asd2640 you can hear difference if you compare wav to mp3 if the peak is pushed to hard e.g. -0.3dB or -0.5dB. But this always can depending on kind of music you are listening e.g. Rock or Metall music where you often use tool like clipper. I personally notice the effect on releases which I download from juno, of some of the release was more tired after listening. When I use the metering tools at wav and mp3 version it shows that they was pushed to hard for encoding.

@starcata4801

Жыл бұрын

I love this video, thank you 🙏

Great vid, this is very important information. Pro engineers give you multiple files of your master, so different bit rates and different formats and in each you get two files, one is normal (and loud), the other is for streaming (-1 tp). The only slight bit of fog I have in my head atm is different level meters giving different readings. Eg Multimeter on logic gives a lower reading than ozone izotope 🤔

"think really deep about, like, what are you doing?" hahahah I cracked... im not even an audio engineer or are particularly producing super loud tracks, but your urgency made me think about loudness more seriously 😂

well, well done!

As someone who doesn't have the money to pay someone *else* to do this stuff for me, I appreciate your clear explanations on how to keep things in spec so they don't sound worse online. Thanks!

-9 or 10 LUFS always sounds loud clean and competitive with any track out there.

I know that I ask for a lot of my rock tracks to be not as loud, because I want to subconsciously inspire the listener to turn it up, a quintessential part of rock n roll to me. Better that than to have them reach to turn it down, anyway, imo.

I think it's more about the 'fat' wall of sound people associate with certain genres. Knowing that its kind of logical that all the 'OTT producers' also go for the -4Lufs limiting and clipping to get the additional saturation and 'crunch' in their end product. It has become more of an 'artform' to actually get a "clean" -4 Lufs master with perceived dynamics. The Psychology behind that still remains that the engineering behind all of this gets you a lot of respect from other producers and fans and does help you to stand out if you are able to pull this off. Bass genres that grew out of the loudness war still carry those expectations unfortunately.

I follow the specifications to the letter and it’s funny because most of my tracks seem much quieter than most other comparable tracks, but my stuff won’t get penalized and still has dynamic flow. It’d rather keep the integrity of the music than JUST worry about loudness.

Most engineers in the industry are aware, we're taught this stuff in detail at uni and we'd never treat out own projects in this way. But when a client says "it's not loud enough to compete" The engineer isn't going to argue with the people who keep the money coming in. The mechanism is very simple: doing what they've asked from the paymasters. If any of us refused they'd just go to another engineer. Gaz Williams explains this pretty well. It's not because the engineers have some sort of hidden loudness ego schizm, that's the domain of dj's and label/artist bosses. Point the stick of recrimination at the right people perhaps? Engineers obviously care but their hands are tied. that's what they're doing.

Lmaoooooo!!!! I love it when you say… if that’s really what you want… is to keep going louder… you might want to look inside 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

MY MAN! 🙌

I think that the simple fact is that when a piece of music is made louder in a certain part of a composition it can elicit an emotional response, and because of that people continually used this function in their compositions until it reached absurdity. I also find it strange though maybe unrelated, that pop and rock music in the late 80s going into the 90s started moving away from high speed guitar solos and technical showing off for the crescendo of the song, into just making the music louder in the crescendo of the song.

Keep fighting the good fight kind sir!

thank you!

The problem is now is not so much just conditioning but the systems we play on are not all build for dynamic range. Cheap amps and speakers (ie phones, laptops, TV speakers, little Bluetooth speakers) can’t handle dynamics well. I don’t like mixing/mastering for specifics but if the majority are playing on those systems what choice do we have! Get everyone on Dolby Atmos and we have a solution, however I can tell that is an even more confusing subject for most punters who still don’t really understand that it’s not just another surround sound medium.

i loved what u said about (considering to look inside of urself conserning the obsession over loudnes), cz really...it aint what can make ur track STAND OUT.

Loudness is perceptive, but I love masters from the 80s that sound really great when I turn up the volume.

All I can say is: download some successful tracks from wherever. Open them up in Audacity (it's free) and take a look at the red that appears. Red is where the reconstructed waveform goes above 0bB. You might be surprised. Note, however, that if you open the wav file vs the mp3 file, you'll likely get slightly different results. Some wav files will not clip when the equivalent mp3 will. In any case, you'll learn a few things. Like, for example, that you probably can't hear the distortion of the true peak overs. Or, you might even *like* that distortion (because we're used to it at this point).

Sonible True, says my mix has +1.5 db truepeak. I have a 2x FF-L2 as last on my chain. How is it possible the limiter passes audio above the threshold lvl?

Few people understand the difference between, maximum volume levels and Apparent Loudness. Apparent Loudness Levels. This is actually where the Loudness Wars, emanated from. Not the physical volume levels but the, apparent loudness of it.. And so it was discovered. While using a, over modulation prevention, dynamic range limiting device. Which always was required to prevent, over modulation. Can also be, well manipulated. So as to change the, apparent texture. Of the sound. And so by speeding up those, broadband, dynamic range controllers. It sounded louder. Without getting any louder. Et voilà! The loudness wars begin! So then later it was discovered. Instead of using a, full hearing response bandwidth, gizmo. You can chop it up into three or four, separate sections of response bandwidth. Highly processing some frequencies more than others. And slam! Bam! POW! Your station is the loudest on the dial! And causing us, ear fatigue. In no time flat! Yes indeed. You too can have the loudest distortion on the radio! It's easy! And a little payola. Like the good old days. When men were boys with the girls as their toys. That the Republicunt party is trying to get back to. And they have gotten angered. That just because they are all guttersnipe's and scoundrels. That people do not want to embrace, scoundrels and guttersnipe's. As they represent, the best of the worst. And working for you, the people. To always come up with great cockamamie conspiracy theories. And that your, 99-year-old mother is being forced into, sex trafficking.. And pedophilia. Having relations with a person 30 years her junior. That were in their mid 60s. Which we all find charmingly, revolting. Another monthly egg, down the drain. RemyRAD

LUFS is a cool way to say RMS values (for defined time intervals) with the A type weighting curve that supposedly matches the human hearing. Usually the true RMS value is 1dB above the LUFS number.

You can use Sonic Visualiser for rendering waveforms, it is completely free.

Goed bezig 😁

I think people put too much stock in streaming services. The loudness war is not being fought on spotify. It is being fought in live venues on huge PA systems. If you want your edm track to compete in a live set back to back with other tracks mastered up at -8 to -6, your track better be hitting that target as well.

I got a question about this topic. My friend is an engineer for Grammy artists and he told me to put the loudness on -9 db and the true peak at -2db. When I told him that everybody says -1 is enough for true peak he said it's true but that's if you wanna stay at -14 on the loudness. when you wanna go louder you should go down on the true peak and put it at -2db. How true is this and why?

@Yuusou.

Жыл бұрын

I guess it's about the conversion algorithms, as Wytse mentioned in the video as well. Specifically compressed audio file types like OGG and MP3 will alter the sound significantly and to avoid any clipping after the converted files, you need to have the headroom. The louder your track is on average, the more likely it is to go beyond the 0 dB true peak after conversion if -1 dB is used on your master track.

@Whiteseastudio

Жыл бұрын

Spotify does indeed recommend to deliver at -2dBTP for higher loudness deliveries

the interesting thing with TPM is that every measurement method produces slightly different results. even if you look at the loudness meter in Cubase vs their own insight tool...

What do you think of HoRNet Harmonics Pro? I can't seem to find any videos on it. Snake Oil?