I feel like with coney, coney does a really good job being both authentic and not impressionable. He is his own entity apart from his fanbase, whereas most fanbases are an extension of the content creator

@laesar2299

2 жыл бұрын

I feel like you can credit a large portion of the later simply to him having a generally older audience.

@Jedededededede

2 жыл бұрын

He IS content

@sicarius7246

2 жыл бұрын

I mean he still has a funny personality but i feel like it's not as based on inside jokes and memes

@FeeshUnofficial

2 жыл бұрын

@@sicarius7246 that's also true

@FeeshUnofficial

2 жыл бұрын

@@laesar2299 another important factor I think is that his opinion are usually pretty controversial. Not offensive in the slightest, just... not what people think about usually

Some context on the Punk stuff: it was a 1k money match, and Koustics did the whole “I’m eating on your dime” video first about the money he won off Punk in that clip shown here (where Punk is pissed he lost money). Looks up Punks pop off when he won the rematch shit is legendary.

You didnt start at Sfat saying "Happy birthday Mang0", after sfat beat him at summit, thats where the beef actually starts.

@TheLivingShadow_

2 жыл бұрын

That kinda changes the context for me imo. If you're gonna talk shit after a win, on twitter no less, directly to somebody then you open yourself up to a response. BM leads to more BM.

@hibiki8473

2 жыл бұрын

@@bluecultor6178 if I recall mang0 issue is that Sfat went down to the summit mic and said it

@TheLivingShadow_

2 жыл бұрын

@@bluecultor6178 There's a difference between talking shit before playing and after, and an even bigger difference in talking shit generally ("yeah I washed him") and doing it directly to a person ("yo how did that feel"). Plus I don't think people are saying SFat was way out of line. They're saying that once you take the initiative to rub in a victory and make someone feel bad about losing, especially when they're a definitively better player than you, then you should probably expect the same thing to happen to you. That's how it would be taken In the fgc anyways. I think SFat is just a nice guy and shit talked without understanding very much about it.

@harpot678

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheLivingShadow_ I mean part of Sfat's statements were 'I talked shit, you talked shit back right back the day of, that was meant to be end of story.' His only gripe wasn't that mang0 talked shit at all, it's that he talked shit way after the set in his stream.

@nathanlevesque7812

2 жыл бұрын

that's a jab?? that's nothing Happy bday, boohoo...

Big props to the editor, especially the 2nd half of the video. Adding clips for context/banter made it an incredible watch

I love coneys stories and have been loving his podcast. Thanks for the great content.

@connorcombs3691

2 жыл бұрын

Didn't know he had a podcast. What's the name/where can I listen?

@pocketren2252

2 жыл бұрын

@@connorcombs3691 It's How Did We Get Here! He hosts with Jacob Alpharad and it's really funny

@freddart5163

2 жыл бұрын

@@pocketren2252 what platform is it on

@ChoiceSnarf

2 жыл бұрын

@@connorcombs3691 It's on spotify. It's really fun to listen to!

Talk about “storylines” and “villains” in a community always kinda rubs me the wrong way. Yeah these things are entertaining but like, these are real people. You can’t force real people into a role like that, no one wants to be a villain. At what point does someone go from being a good “villain” to a genuinely bad person. Someone like LTG is widely disliked, he shit talks all the time, but he’s also genuinely a really bad person, and so often the shit talk and actual awfulness go hand in hand. Maybe I’m overthinking this, but that’s just what I think.

@mangaprofilepicture5820

2 жыл бұрын

The whole “villain role” thing is entirely case-by-case. Someone like Filipino Champ around Street Fighter 4’s era I’ve heard was a super nice guy but liked playing the role of the villain and when people boo’d him because that, to him, showed how engaged in the game the audience was and how much they enjoyed it. A lot of the “villains”, though, do tend to also have a bad attitude outside of the competition

@ojutay8375

2 жыл бұрын

You can be a villain without being a dick. But most people don't know how to separate the two

@lazerboy4942

2 жыл бұрын

I think we have a very long history of Mang0, if he was a really bad person, we'd know

@CCuppy29

2 жыл бұрын

@@mangaprofilepicture5820 that’s actually a very good point, I think there are other problems that can come with someone playing the villain too, but it definitely can work

@goos1883

2 жыл бұрын

so many people want to play the villain

this was def missing the context of sfat saying happy birthday mango on the mic after beating him in summit pools

I think as long as the shit talk doesn't get into personal shit and stays within the game, it's fine. In my eyes, smash and other e-sports aren't big enough to have careers end from trash talk. Also, trash talk adds to the emotional intensity in player matchups. The more intense the emotion is between players, the more intense the match is, even if the player matchup clearly should favour one side.

The issue I have is that while I can see the similarities between wrestling and pro smash, at the end of the day wrestling matches are fake, the winner is already made and stories are already written. When a character is being annoying they’re being annoying for a reason, either to make their lose more satisfying or to build that character up. In esports, you are competing. Winners are made not based on a story board but with effort and skill. And most people who come in are people who put in an insane amount of training to get to that point. They aren’t characters, and they have the right to be able to play the game without getting shit talked. Not saying that we should outlaw it from the entire thing, cause it happens, but it shouldn’t be a norm thing, nor should it be something characterised. The fact that “characters” exist is also weird to me. I can’t think of another sport who “characterises” their players. Maybe it’s just me. A part of me feels like it’s because of how tied together esports and gaming content creation is. Mango is a content creator and this is him making content. The issue is when he involves someone who just wants to play the game professionally. Like if it was in a conference after the match or something sure I get that, but when he’s saying it on stream, infront of thousands of people after the tournament it feels more like he’s making content.

@vaderwalks

2 жыл бұрын

Pro athletes definitely develop 'characters' and brands, especially if they want to work in the industry after they stop playing. The top athletes make more money from sponsorships than they do for playing the game, much like competitive gamers and their streams/channels. In both cases, cultivating an image is essential to their revenue down the line. I agree with you about Mango making content, however. Like Coney said, it's his stream, he can talk about what he wants, but the fact that he has a monetary incentive to turn a frustrating (embarrassing?) loss into content for profit kind of muddles the convo about 'authenticity' Coney says is so important. His relationship with the game, and the community, is inherently different than someone who just wants to play, and he's responsible for keeping that in mind.

@turkeyman631

2 жыл бұрын

I mean look at UFC, same thing as WWE but those are real fights. This type of shit talking is great for sports. Do we have to respect Mango for talking shit and making it more interesting? No, people can hate him all they want, but at the end of the day, he's talking about someones skill level in a game... He's not personally attacking him for a speech impediment or for something personal.

@SonicMegaKing

2 жыл бұрын

Shit talking is part of competing. Don't like shit talk? Don't compete, cause there's a lot worse to deal with there.

dude literally posted a picture of him holding mango's birthday cake right after beating him but cant handle the tamest trash talk ive ever heard

I think a lot of ultimate players especially don’t want to start any controversy in the wake of the... “incidents” that happened. Might be wrong but it feels like even if it’s not talked about anymore the community as a whole got such a bad reputation that any kind of controversy or beef or whatever else that would bring a lot of eyes on it just feels inherently worse than it would have had those “events” not happened

@ojutay8375

2 жыл бұрын

They're being safe. Which is generally smart but boring

My take on this. Every community needs a little shit talk and banter like this. Ultimate also needs more of it. The players I know that do shit talk others (Light and Marss) are the most entertaining ones to watch.

What a great video, love toph as an interviewee knows how to answer and ask questions in a good way but still authentic and there love toph me and my homies love toph

I think one of the biggest reasons you don't see Ultimate get into shit talking is MKLeo being a genuinely respectful guy. Just straight up, just him. Because he stands so high on his pedestal, but doesn't shit talk (or only casually does at worst), it makes anyone who does shit talk look weak because everyone knows they aren't actually on top. Like, how could Spargo shit talk Leo when Leo is literally out here boosting the guy essentially saying 'its not a matter of if but when that someday he will be the best, replacing me.' Or tweek, finally beating Leo then in an almost too hard to watch moment getting immediately put back in place, you cant say anything to that. By Leo not playing villain, it's made it kind of hard to take anyone seriously as a villain. Imo that's not a bad thing, but I'll be very curious if we will see the rise of some heels when Leos crown is actually hotly contested

I actually know Koustics from back in 2019, we're both from New York and we both went to a bi-weekly DBFZ tournament at the Microsoft store in the city. He's a really cool and funny guy, and I'm really glad he's breaking into the larger consciousness of the FGC. At the end of the day, he's still got as many Capcom Cup wins as punk lolololol (Koustics' joke not mine) plus they're 1-1

I chalked this up to this catching Sfat on a bad day.

Gotta show them who the alpha is. -Panda Punk

Honestly I'm more on the fence on this one, in the current social media climate is real hard to when beef with someone, when entry level tourneys is filled with toxic underwhelming results players.

"I wish there was more beef" *cuts to the HBox crab moment* lmao

I love that you bought up when the rock buried Billy Gunn and his push.

I need to hop in the comp ultimate scene and shit talk everyone to the top

If anyone doesn't think SFAT is being a weenie, keep in mind he beat him at summit and ran up to the mic after the set and said "happy birthday mang0". Not only that but he tweeted the clip, so how are you allowed to shit talk him and he can't say anything back about it? How many less followers between you and someone is necessary for you to play the victim?

@hi-mx8xk

2 жыл бұрын

So both are being Weenies? Lol.

@limitedbom2206

2 жыл бұрын

@@hi-mx8xk No. Sfat is being a weenie for trash talking then complaining about getting trash talked. Here's a hypothetical, if guy1 punches guy2 who is double his size, and guy2 hits him back, is it cool for guy1 to start crying and saying guy2 is being violent out of nowhere and it's not fair because he's bigger than him? Or is guy1 being a big ol weenie. I'll let you decide.

@hi-mx8xk

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info. Though, saying happy birthday is just a little jab. Next time a toddler so as much touches me, I'm going to punt them in the face, because it sounds pretty fair to me.

@limitedbom2206

2 жыл бұрын

@@hi-mx8xk yes because you should take my statement as literal for every case... Sfat has talked trash before in the past too so it's not like the only shit talk he's done was saying happy birthday so don't take it that way. But i'm assuming im just talking to a wall here so I guess there's no point trying.

BRO I JUST HOPED IT WAS TOPH LET'S GO

In like 2014 at a melee tournament I heard someone say "Norcal is good because they love each other, SoCal is better cause they hate each other."

Good job editor, hopefully you get well soon!

I kinda feel like all the cancellations in ultimate has a lot of players scared into not wanting to trash talk anymore and stay within their own circles of friends.

Please I need that pukdagod edit with that music

At this point in time it's just how the Melee community is on still being this dated bro culture still. We get Mang0 and know he's not being super serious, but it still can rub people the wrong way. Esp in front of an audience of diehard fans that are socially inept. It's why Armada doesn't really like interacting with this BS as the Mang0 fans just harass or talk shit all day.

@alexanderbateman5581

2 жыл бұрын

The idea that shit talk is "dated bro culture" is how you get insanely sterile communities with no stakes.

@yankees2864

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexanderbateman5581 yeah but Mangos fans especially go overboard.

@vaderwalks

2 жыл бұрын

And the idea that it's essential to the health of the community is how you get an unbearable cesspool. Incredibly common in the fgc.

@nathanlevesque7812

2 жыл бұрын

'not being super serious' like every other bully

@Flamerunner451

2 жыл бұрын

“dated bro culture” lmao not everyone has to be buddy buddy with everyone else. It’s competition and sometimes people take it too far, that’s just how it is

I don't think this is necessarily a problem of shit talk vs no shit talk, i think it's more so a case of what happens when shit talk meets cult of personality. Shit talk when done right, is great. But when it comes from someone who has a cult like following/fanbase (regardless of whether they helped create it or got it unintentionally) that's where things tend to get more complicated. Especially if said person is also an asshole in real life or of otherwise dubious moral quality.

Need more coney talking bout wrestling

Yeah I can get it too, people have been doing this for ages, so it's nothing new that mango did this, sure he's salty but more than anything he's doing that for his fans too, you gotta put on a show, to keep it going, make a rivalry keep the fire going, because at the end of it all, he may say that but I don't think he was being truly malicious about it, well maybe a little, but it's good for the fans too, I just hope the respect of fellow competititors isn't gone, I've done competitions and had rivalries, but I always respected them and what they brought to the game.

Also sorry for all the punctuation mistakes, I was pretty high when I posted that.

i love my coney movies

I love the fgc because of the trash talk and the competition of the opponents it’s so much more entertaining rather than normal E sports like LOL when being “toxic” is wow we should’ve won because we are better but great game good job I’ll be better next time

See, I understand when you're feeling down it can feel like shit, but Zach and Mang0 are sort of friends in real life. They hang out at tournaments and fuck with each other all the time. Maybe Zach was just having a bad day, but honestly he could and imo should've just replied with "Yeah and I'll beat your ass again" or something. Playing into it is always more fun and lets you take the shittalk less seriously than turning it into shitty feels and pity party.

I very much don't like when people are rude or assholes but this didn't seem to cross any lines. idk, I understand not liking it, and that's fine, and it was mango's choice and he knew that would happen, and that's fine too. he didn't cross a line where he'll be shunned, it was just some actual salt. your point about responsibility is a very fair one and I think you'd know about that far far better than I would so I will agree on that point that it would be better if people didn't do this shit full stop.

Man mango being an eagles fan makes SOOOO Much sense

Anybody have a link to that first punk clip?

This story missed the part where SFat basically invited the "beef" by running down stairs during Summit 12 to say "Happy Birthday, Mang0." Right after he beat Mang0 for the first time. I understand the reason to celebrate, but SFat isn't guiltless in this whole story and people need to understand that they both probably have moved on already.

@eric-gn7is

2 жыл бұрын

Sfat’s a bitch. No one wants to hear shot talk from someone youve beaten countless times beatig you once

@harpot678

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, and right afterwards mang0 tweeted about how Zac ate a burger in his car alone and thought nobody saw him despite being vegan. They both took quick jabs at each other at the time, and that was meant to be the end. SFAT just thought it was not right that mang0 kept on dishing it out way afterwards on his stream. I'm starting to wonder if people even know what SFAT is upset for in the first place.

@nathanlevesque7812

2 жыл бұрын

That is the tamest thing I have ever heard. Mang0 is a child.

@bossumbanana4625

2 жыл бұрын

@@nathanlevesque7812 Why's sfat complaining so much tho? They're just talking shit to eachother

@nathanlevesque7812

2 жыл бұрын

@@bossumbanana4625 look up

I will miss the time when coney had 69k subs

Sfat should have replied with “Happy Birthday Mang0” lmfao

10:05 I NEEED a link to that clip

watching the whole rock-billy gun shit made me think abt something would it be considered that leffen did something similar to chillin after the 5-0? with all the shit talk and the absolute beating chillin took, he kinda became a meme and eventually stopped playing and started to commentate instead, would that be similar? would leffen be considered to indirectly have "shat" on chillin's career?

I feel like when it comes to shit talking you have to be very clear and obvious on if your doing it in a real way or for the shits. I know Mang0 likes to shit talk but I feel like its kinda hard to tell if hes serious or not which in turn makes some of his fans actually believe it. When I watched the clip it he definitely kinda came off bitter and less jokey for me so I can see why SFAT kinda didnt take it well. Personally I do like some shit talking but I also really enjoy seeing pro's having fun, hanging out, and playing together. A big thing is definitely like you brought up though that the bigger everyone's audiences are you have to be more aware of that when doing things because your audience will follow right behind you so SFAT probably doesn't want to get shit talked by hundreds or thousands of random people that just join his chat for no reason. Its something a lot of streamer have had to deal with and I know has been a big complaint about other big streamers like XQC, it can be funny when 1 person (streamer) does something but when that 1 person influences thousands of other people it stops being a joke and can turn to harassments whether it was intentional or not

Nahh that mang0 clip really felt like a salty man coping and playing it off as a joke, like bruh if you're gonna start shit talking cuz you're mad about it don't try and play it off like you aren't

@slapshot09

2 жыл бұрын

Coney didn't show the context behind it, when SFAT beat mango at summit he ran down the stairs and said happy birthday mango, he started the beef and I think mango has every right to be a bit salty.

@yimwee2401

2 жыл бұрын

@@slapshot09 Best part, it was his actual birthday. Also everyone seems to just blow stuff out of proportion, this was just routine trash talk.

I'm def not into the smash scene as a whole..but this was still quite interesting and enjoyable.

I think smack talk and stuff is fine, but Coney's right that having a big audience adds responsibilities. It's one thing if the players are constantly beefing, because they both choose to engage with that, but when fans are involved it's hundreds of irrelevant people constantly on one dude. You aren't constantly around the person you're beefing with, but internet troglodytes are 24/7 trying to fuck with you.

shit talk means something different when it's between 'equals' and when it's between people with a big difference in standing. i got into a non-smash fgc game over quarantine and really enjoyed playing it up through the ranks online but have since quit now that i started playing against streamers and high level players all the time. win or lose, if i check the vods, the player and their twitch chat are mega toxic and insulting toward whoever they're playing against and i couldn't take it anymore. i love the game but it completely soured it for me

@0Asterite0

2 жыл бұрын

Git gud

@joobtheboob

2 жыл бұрын

@@0Asterite0 git gud? Git fucking good? Why don't you Git _some manners and learn there's no reason to disrespect people over videogames._

@bertboxer1

2 жыл бұрын

@@0Asterite0 i stopped playing

@jazionpurnsky1185

2 жыл бұрын

@@bertboxer1 lmao

@michaelvandevusse3728

2 жыл бұрын

@@bertboxer1 hey man I just wouldn't check the vods tbh. Sorry that ruined your love of the game though. That really sucks

Kirbydad is the only person in the Ult community brave enough to dish out mad trash

Talky Coney is good content

If I ever get good enough I want to be “the villain” of the ult community

@ojutay8375

2 жыл бұрын

Mood

Honestly I like the shit talk and beef. Mohammad Ali started shit talking to sale more seats for his fights. Its a proven way to get more viewers and more intrigue into the game/story of the players. UFC has rivalries and shit talking and people love it there too. If some one dishes shit out then you just gotta take it and shit talk back. You know that both of you guys are just playing a video game and without viewership there is no professional scene. If you want to be pro then you gotta be open to shit talk to get more people's eyes on you.

@billyhorchel5429

2 жыл бұрын

And that’s the difference. You ever hear Muhammad Ali whine and cry like a little bitch when he lost to Frazier? Hell nah. He took it like a champ and and beat him the next time. Talking shit is respected when you can back it up on the stage. This is the opposite of that. Homie couldn’t perform well enough, lost, and cried about it on his stream.

@slapshot09

2 жыл бұрын

@@billyhorchel5429 coney didn't include the full context. After sfat beat mango at summit he ran down the stairs and said happy birthday mango, he started the beef, I think mango has every right to be a little upset

Punk having beef, both figuratively and literally.

Mango has been doing this with Armada for years now

I disagree with Toph because plenty of people actually dislike Mang0 so they won’t his him when/ if he’s gone

What's the song in the background of the video from 8:40

What even made Mango say that

@yusrajamal1131

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah this shitty video doesn’t explain that huh? SFAT started the beef at summit

With toph the legend

someone please link me that punk clip 10:00

Slight correction. SFAT actually gets wins on mango every year or so. Yes it is absolutely an upset when it happens; but It definitely has happened before with enough frequency that the “I got another one for you in 6 months.” Comes off to me as “yeah you can beat me, but what about the other players at the top level? You don’t stand a chance against anyone but me and even then it’s a fluke.”

@trfjosh3754

2 жыл бұрын

that was the first time since 2017 lol

@nicholasdunham5088

2 жыл бұрын

@@trfjosh3754 oh my god. You’re right. I stg I thought it was more than that.

Billy Gunn was a character that just never caught. Kinda like SFAT

I feel like really good smash players tend to develop an ego problem.

FELLAS!

on the "ult players are younger therefore they don't trashtalk" thing - it's def not just age, they're just nintendo nerds, you know how they are, all nice and polite and awkward n shit. Young people that grow up playing shooting games or something trash talk harder than any adult that has ever played smash besides maybe leffen lmao. Anyone who's been there will tell you the same

Great content Coney, I appreciate what you are for the community and G O D S P E E D

NEWT GINGRICH 1:25

I think there's an easy line between the fire of "I can't wait to fuck that guy up, shit I lost good match gg respect" and "you're shit you'll never get anywhere but you can always beat me for some cash ill be fine"

Can someone PLEASE get me that punk clip

What's music is playing throughout the video? All this shit bangs?

I agree, Mang0 is a lot like The Rock

Punk shit-talking is hilarious😭😭

To Coney's point on "are you really gonna start shit as a 18-24 year old?" I SAY "Are you really gonna start shit as a grown ass man with a wife and child over a video game?" Sure Mang0 is a funny guy but when you look at it from an outside view it's just childlike behavior and somehow kids coming up in the scene act more mature.

ult can't have trash talk because anyone who does would be considered toxic

i dont think people realise that they are friends too if u dont talk shit like this to ur friends then get new ones. sfat got his feelings hurt by what was CLEARLY a joke the little dance should very clearly indicate that. not saying he shouldnt or couldnt be hurt by it but when u open the door to getting shit talked its not a jab for jab kinda thing.. once that doors open its open imma shit talk whenever double down if u bring up something that is easy to shit talk. which from the context of the clip it seems like sfat did not 100% sure tho. if ur gonna dish anything be prepared to take it double.

VeryPog drama

Sfat getting mad that its bad for his pr is worse for his pr than the trash talk is

Followers just need to stay out of it and watch the entertainment.

yeah that's fucked. Normally I like how Mang0 walks the line between okay and not okay. He went too hard this time considering what SFAT actually said, a little dialed back and it would've been just funny

The ultimate scene is so clean that our peak was the beef that kiyarash and chunky had for a couple of days. Oh, and epic Gabriel was great at it too! Trash talk is fun and creates narratives and competition!

Whilst I agree it's not that big a deal, still, these are people who know that they can weaponize their followers. I get it's an act in the context of Mango, but equally, if it turns into a thing where people continue to harass you in Twitch chat and online, shouldn't the player take responsibility for leading the charge? Idk Mango is still cute though

This is unrelated but what’s your view on Technicals. If you don’t have one or don’t wanna discuss it. Again sorry if I’m stepping out of line by asking have a wonderful day man

Pgpunk

Imo the mango clip was less “hint of bitterness” and just came across as super bitter. I’m all for trash talk but this just seemed excessive, especially coming from a top player with probably the biggest fan base in their game

I didn’t think mango went overboard, I mean when you got guys like LTG in the FGC🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Coney I love you

I keep mistaking Mango to Hungrybox to the point that I think that I've never seen Mango's face before.

Only Smash babies would turn shittalking into actual drama lmao, the FGC thrives on that shit and turns that into money matches. "B-But he sounds so bitter, so mean" actually hilarious.

@joplin4434

2 жыл бұрын

You cleary were not part of and know nothing of the arcade era, but yeah; the big boys of the FGC would never do something like...bring 13-0 any time PL shows his face lol or have a shitfest because who you play or don't play or because the titty samurai has different moves this time around lmao The FGC is just as dumb, we just have more people on the limelight than meele

@Beef_Ravioli

2 жыл бұрын

@@joplin4434 The FGC is dumb, but it doesn't turn shit talk into drama about feelings being hurt, PL got clowned for months and he never went on twitter to talk about how sad he was. If you talked shit, you had to prove you could talk that shit. Hell, in the arcade era you had to know when to talk shit or you'd get a knife to your stomach, I learned that the hard way. Not too hard, fortunately. Also no one who truly mentions Baiken as "titty samurai" plays the game, about 5% of people who talk about Baiken actually play guilty gear. Don't confuse the average steam reviewers with the FGC.

Yes coney you are

I remember mango got 5 0 basically by Zane game 5 3 stocks to 1 Zane had three socks

Mango makes Melee look bad. 9:28

good fucking take

Shit talking inspires people to grind harder to beat you. If you shit talk while playing games an let the beef stay in the game you produce better competition.

mang loves sfat we love sfat itsin good fun they made up already :)

Everyone needs nario's type of shit talk. Everything would be so funny and fun without anyone getting feelings hurt

I mean to me it just seems like Mang0 is so salty which is why it’s kinda cringe to me. At the same time Sfat should just said hold this L and he woulda came out on top

Nice

10:12

How is this a controversy

Mang0 would be kind of a loser if he didn’t have smash, so him calling others smalltime is very ironic

He’s been doing this for years on his stream, even when he wins. Lol