She's my favorite "bad" guy. Especially enjoy when we get her PoV, and we can see her slightly skewed interpretation of everything.

Elaida, like the Red Ajah, was done bad. It easy to see both in a one dimensional view. Elaida isn't bad, despite being a terrible person, she's misguided. One could say she did everything right, but still got it wrong. 1. She has a foretelling that the Andorian royal line is the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don. So, she attaches herself to Morgase. 2. Moiraine & Siuan are breaking Tower Law. They need to be held accountable. That's partially Moiraine & Siuan fault. She didn't know they were trying to direct the Dragon Reborn. 3. She has a Foretelling that the Tower will be united under The Amyrlin. So, she must be doing right. I was actually glad when you pointed out that her interaction with Padan Fain effected her? Elaida would never have coward down to Alviarin. And while she was hard before Fain, she was not cruel and stupid, like she became layer. Aside: The Red Ajah doesn't just hunt men who could channel. They were meant to stop misuse of the One Power. Women who claim to Aes Sedai and aren't. People using ter'angreal. Wilders who are misusing the One Power. But, like Elaida, we are mostly given a one dimensional view. It isn't until Pevara that we get a red who isn't just a "men bad" cut out.

I think a large part of the problem with Reds is that they have been under pretty direct control of the Black for a very long time. At least the last two women who were Highest were also high level Black Sisters. This puts the Red in a position of losing any compassion that might have once existed and sets them up for an event like the Vileness. It appears that the Black Ajah may have even been recruiting women with a specific outlook into the Red for quite some time. As for Elaida, I think it's going a little far to say that she was being selfless with any of these things, it's not like Moiraine and Siuan were the only women she pushed to move faster in their training (Meidani had a similar experience). Elaida is not evil, but she is arrogant even before Fain's influence on her increased her inherent negative personality traits. I hate that she not only ended up as damane, but that the Aes Sedai abandoned her to her fate without a second thought, but she did deserve to be pulled down, stilled and made an example of for her actions while Amyrlin (even if you decide what she did to Siuan was at the feet of the Black). She diverted massive funding into a personal palace, she sent nearly 100 Aes Sedai into captivity and she overreached the authority of her position at every step. She was doing this even before Fain showed up so it's not all on his influence. Yes Elaida was misguided by her own Talent, but why has she never bothered to discuss some of these Foretellings? Her Talent is clearly not a secret as the whole Tower is aware that she has the ability, yet she hides some rather crucial information involving the fate of the world. She KNEW the Andoran royal line would be the key to winning the Last Battle and she literally told no one this information? Then she turns around and blames Siuan for meddling with the Dragon Reborn and leads a coup against Siuan for doing the same thing she herself did by keeping her Foretelling hidden. Elaida is a lot of things, mostly a damn good character IMO, but she's not selfless.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

I think someone had to have known about her foretelling about the Royal Line of Andor, because I don't think we learn that information from her? I can't remember exactly though. But as for why she doesn't share it.. I think that is her arrogance and overconfidence. She thinks she's right. This is a massive character flaw in her, she doesn't question herself ever. And yeah, I do remember that she did the same thing with other Accepted (as she did with Moiraine and Siuan), but that to me again is her with good goals. She wants more Aes Sedai, she wants to guarantee that women pass the test. It's a good goal. Helping Moiraine and Siuann (to a woman who cares about status) has more altruism to it than helping the others because they are equals to her in the power. It would reduce her status in the end.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

Elaida tells us about the Foretelling re: Royal Line she had it while still an Accepted and kept it secret then attached herself to Morgase as soon as it became clear she would be Queen.

Elaida only ever wanted to save the world, she was not a Darkfriend, and she truly believed that the Pattern had chosen her to be its instrument. It's clear that she hates being Amyrlin, that she is not a people person, that she hates bureaucracy, and that she just wants to do the thing that needs to be done. She's Red Ajah. Red Ajah don't attach themselves to royals for prestige, they don't want or need prestige. Red Ajah are the Aes Sedai that do the hardest, most dangerous job of them all, and literally no one ever thanks them for doing this necessary service. Every Red sister knows that before she earns the shawl. But they do it anyway, knowing they'll be hated for it, even by other Aes Sedai. I'm sure being Morgase's nursemaid was a grind for Elaida, especially dealing with Morgase's awful children. With all the threats and False Dragons out there, Elaida had to be wishing constantly that she could pass this duty to someone else. But her Foretelling held her in place. Maybe Elaida did think about 'the Royal House of Andor' not meaning Morgase and Elayne, maybe she considered that it might mean the issue of Tigraine Mantear. Well, as far as Elaida knows, that's Galad Damodred, and while he is a man, it's likely that Elaida kept a close eye on him as well. She probably thought she was covering all the bases. Elaida's not a fool, she just doesn't know what she doesn't know. I think it's significant that Elaida chose Alviarin as her Keeper. Yes, it was part of the dealmaking she had to do to build a coalition against Siuan, but I think on some level she realized that she has a weak spot. I think there is a nagging sense that there are things that she misses. What better advisor than a White to compensate? A White wouldn't hesitate to point out the Amyrlin's faulty logic and bad assumptions. On some level, Elaida knows she's missing something, because things are just not adding up, and it's driving her crazy. The variables that she thinks she has on lockdown, her Foretellings, are the only things she isn't questioning properly. A White Ajah advisor would quickly address her assumptions. But Alviarin isn't White Ajah, she's Black Ajah, and once again Elaida is a victim of noble intentions ruined by circumstance. The fact is, Elaida's lack of personal charisma is her downfall. She really wanted to help Siuan and Moiraine, for the Pattern's sake, and I can imagine her heartbreak when she realized that Siuan and Moiraine just didn't understand her motives. I can also see how that heartbreak might have contributed to Elaida's growing suspicion of them, especially Siuan. Siuan is so sketchy in the way she handles things as Amyrlin, and Elaida accurately smells a rat. It's just not the rat she thinks it is. Elaida is that person who always 'trusts her gut', but her gut always gets it wrong, and no one she respects will show her how she went down the wrong path. Elaida to me is more tragic than anything else, and her fate is worse than death. It's really crappy that so many fans celebrate her being leashed.

@TheNextFool

3 жыл бұрын

Great assessment! Elaida is one of my favourite characters in the whole series. She was not radically different than most Aes Sedai in the series and had a huge sense of duty. Most of her errors were mostly bad luck and the fact that she was being sabotaged at a level nobody else in the series, including Egwene, could guess. There is an interesting part in the Companion I only read today on the Great Emergence, which further explains Elaida's actions against Siuan.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

I think I'm gonna have to start running my scripts by you, Sians, cause I read this comment thinking "Damn, I wish I'd said that. Oh damn, I wish I'd said THAT! Oh shit... yes, I should have said THAT!"

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Oooh, what was it you read?

@Siansonea

3 жыл бұрын

@@LezbiNerdy always happy to be a 'consultant'. :D

@Unlitedsoul

3 жыл бұрын

No, it's clear that Elaida LOVED being Amyrlin. She loved the power and the status it gave her because she felt she deserved it. In fact, she not only felt she deserved being Amyrlin, but believed she should be controlling the entire world. That every ruler should kneel and swear allegiance to her. Of course she did, being that she's one of the single greatest narcissists in the entire story. She even shows major signs of being a sociopath. What she did not like was that she still had to answer to others, and that she didn't rule like she perceived the monarchs did. Something she specified plans on ending so that she could have sole power. If she picked Alviarin for the reasons you state here, then why is it that Elaida goes against virtually every piece of advice that she is given from her Keeper? Something that Alviarin eventually uses to manipulate her. Why does Elaida treat her as little more than a receptionist? Why do all of Elaida's PoVs mention her distrust of Alviarin, including those early on in the relationship? Elaida picked Alvirian because of her contacts and the idea that she could easily control the meeker White. She tells you this! It is pointed out quite a few times in her own thoughts. There is no mention of a White being able to back her up in finding those things she overlooks. Elaida believes she overlooks nothing! She mentions many, many times how she sees everything (often while actively missing something right in front of her). Elaida is not a victim of circumstance beyond that of which she creates. She is a victim of hubris and the ignorance that often comes from it. She is a victim of power lust. She is a victim of greed. She is a victim of her own sociopathic lack of empathy. She is a victim of her sadistic cravings. She intentionally places herself where she knows the fate of the world will hinge. Not because she will be needed there, but because she can be part of it and gain from it. I wouldn't be surprised that her true intention of joining the Red was so she would have the eventual chance of being put close to the actual Dragon Reborn after some foretelling... and not because of the actual purpose of the ajah. Her methods of motivating Moirane and Siuane are not merely misjudged or mistaken. She knows there are other means of motivation. In fact, Elaida ignores the advice given to her to use the same methods that motivated her in that very moment. Instead, she picks a sadistic path that temporarily satisfies her need for power. The only one who misjudges her actions... is Elaida! This is something we see her repeat at every possible instance. She always makes the decision of gratifying her need power lust and sadism, despite how often it has turned out to cause problems for her down the line. There are so many parallels between Elaida and the fall of Julius Caesar, Nero, and even Shakespeare's Hamlet, it's hard to not envision them during many of her PoVs. Yes, I believe Elaida acted out of what she believed was needed to save the world. I believe that she believed she was being noble. Unfortunately that notion flies in direct opposite of what she... as a character... tells you in her own thoughts. She does what she feels she must do, but she also believes that only she knows the right path and that she should be richly rewarded with wealth, prestige, honor, deference, and power that should come from it. There is not a noble nor honorable bone in Elaida's body. She acts as much in the name of selfishness and self righteousness, as she does for the best intentions of the world. No, Elaida is not evil nor is she what can be called a villain. However, she is absolutely an antagonist. She is neither good, admirable, honorable, nor noble. That said, she did not deserve the outcome she was given. The only people I believe who deserved such a fate where those who wielded compulsion on a whim, such as Graendal, Moghedian, Rahvin, Liandrin, etc.

Thoughts on Elaida: 1) Being brushed by Padan Fain's evil pretty much sealed her fate from that point on, solidifying her worst attributes and effectively preventing growth in her position as Amyrlin. 2) At least she's not Gawyn.

I think a more compelling parallel with Elaida is Pedron Niall. Both of their visions of the Last Battle are pretty much completely undercut by the fact that they both see themselves at the center of it; it's all about their own accrued glory in saving the world, not about actually saving the world, or the self sacrifice involved in that. I see them as object lessons in how "bad" people distort or corrupt a good intention.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, I agree that Pedron Naill is an clear comparison, but he is also a side character. But I think they are a parallel that is mean to be clear in the narrative.

Your highlighting of the parallels between Moiraine and Elaida has just suddenly clarified why I her so much - Moiraine's my number one, but my favourite characters are so often those women who will sacrifice everything for their cause, whatever that cause is. And that is the sort of person Elaida is too - it just so happens, that her way of doing so isn't, ah, all that nice, and is in direct opposition to the causes that the narrative sets us up to support. I love her, not in spite of her personality of an on-fire garbage can, but because of it. She's a frustrating delight to read.

I always wondered why there was a White Tower at all based on how they acted. Though Elaida is propped up as the villian, how she acts and treats others is not very different from most Aes Sedai.

Elaida is one of the best written badies ever..... she has the depth of character usually preserved for the hero/heroine. She looks upon others with contempt, has no real empathy and believes that ends justify any means, a true sociopath. which one could argue means none of this is her fault. So... yes a brilliant piece of writting.

I have mixed feelings about Elaida. I think she's a well written character, and I think she's also quite interesting. I also feel for her when she's being manipulated/black mailed by Alviarin and the Black Ajah. She's even somewhat sympathetic. But I think a lot of people are overlooking a lot of her faults. She decides to build herself a giant palace, for no real reason. She demotes Aes Sedai sisters to novices and accepted. She completely eliminates an entire Ajah. She assumes her fortelling as about Elayne, which is sensible when she realizes Elayne can channel, and will be among the strongest Aes Sedai in thousands of years. But then she tries on several occasions to get Gawyn killed, and doesn't seem to care about Galad either. I get that Elayne is probably the bloodline of the throne of Andor from her fortelling, but why risk it? For all she knows, Gawyn could have been the key. This can't all be thrown on the influence of the Black Ajah, Fain, or anyone else. I feel like those are the big problems, but let's not overlook the decay in Tar Valon in general, and the White Tower specifically, her bullying and inability to work with or make peace between the different groups. These things I have more sympathy for, since I feel most of it can be blamed on the influence of the Black. But no matter how you look at it, Elaida makes huge assumptions that constantly prove to be wrong. She can claim she's doing what's in the best interest of the tower, but killing her loyal supporters like Gawyn (granted, Gawyn sucks, but he's still pretty deadly), demoting Aes Sedai and inflaming their anger, and building herself a giant palace are hardly in the best interests of the tower, or in helping the world get ready for the last battle, which is what her fortelling was trying to help her to do. I think a lot of people forget how truly awful she gets by books 11+.

3:43 it might not have been the red ajah's idea, but they went along with it. keep in mind that the reds went after thom's nephew on elaida's say, so she would have been aware that they just gentled him on the spot and she does nothing to punish those sisters. the black didn't do it in a vacuum.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think that could have been Elaida's say. Elaida would have been a barely new Aes Sedai at that point. The head of the Red Ajah was being controlled and manipulated by the black ajah.

@kght222

3 жыл бұрын

@@LezbiNerdy thom mentions elaida using his nephew against him, it is part of how he ended up leaving caemlyn and part of how he ends up with a death warrant in andor. unreliable narrator is certainly a thing, but a male channeler who is caught and brought to tar'valon is certainly something of note, she knew that his nephew was never brought to tar'valon. she never sent up a single red flag about people doing things improperly. the red don't care about fang people.

@kght222

3 жыл бұрын

might have been basil gil who mentioned elaida using his nephew against him. trying to remember.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

Toveine Gazal alludes to this too. Noting that Elaida got off scott free despite being guilty of actions that got Toveine sent into exile for. Elaida may have been a young Sister but she was at the very top of the strength hierarchy and was advisor to Morgase which the Red was not going to lose by turning her in. Elaida is almost certainly personally involved in Owyn’s gentling and death.

This was a wonderful video... Happy New Year ... Make the Best of 2021 !! 💖🤗☺️

Another amazingly insightful video Jen... Love it

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

In my headcannon Egwene lived. Egwene, Silviana the Red/Green/Blue ajah leads a raid liberating the demane and discovering Elaida. Then Egwene helps Elaida recover from her time under the Ai'dam.

Another character profile that makes me .... think... about the less desirables of WOT. Well done. Looking past all the mounds of unpleasant to see the true character within is your gift Jen. Thank you. I am also adopting you ‘after WOT’ head cannon. I love the idea of Eliada (after hitting rock bottom amount the Seanchen) being important to Mat’s mission to reform that slavers nation. Keep up the good work Jen and Happy New Year!

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

I pretty much agree with everything you said except the selfless notion. Fans do give her a bad rap. But hers is not the personality one should have towards the end of an age. I'm just spit balling... She embodies the worst aspects of many of the protagonists and in fact at several points narratively stands in for Rand leading up to his kidnapping.

It's not the red ajah's purpose that makes them unlikeable it's their personalities, including Elaida. It's been a while since I read the books but most of the red ajah members I remember had very strong personalities and not very nice ones either. I do feel empathy for Elaida however same as any person who makes choices such as hers, you are judged by them,. There were dark friends who were more likeable even knowing they were dark friends lol

Elaida is a well written character, and I have started gaining some sympathy for her during my current reread. It wasn’t until recently that I became aware that she had been negatively affected by Padan Fain. She is a terrible person, but it is sad to me that in spite of wanting to do what she thought was right for The Tower and the world, she was destructive and helped the Shadow.

Eliada, I think of a flawed in the way the Red Ajah is flawed. Not because they are inherrantly evil; but because their mission is single-minded, and this skews their perspective on events. Yes like all ajah the deserve a place in the hall; but their unwillingness as an ajah to be 'flexible' makes them poor leaders. Consider all the ajah's as ministers in a government each playing a role. In RL prime ministers tend to come from the minustries which work on a balancing or diplomatic sense. Minister for defence (red), all will care about is defending their position. As its what they do. It makes for poor judgement. Compare to a grey leader who would try to balance things but at the risk of stagnation. And blue who will focus the tower to a goal but at a risk of overreach. The grey and blue are designed to mske better leaders, but alternating dependant on world events all other ajah just bring too much of their old ajah to the job... It is ironically the least bound and smallest of ajah make the best leaders.

Every time somebody says "Those who seek power should not have it," I'm thinking "So Queen Elizabeth should have more power than her dozen-odd Prime Ministers?" There are a couple female characters who deserved some sort of punishment, and if they were dudes it probably would have been a quick death, but they get tortured. Elaida needed deposing, but probably shouldn;t have been executed (they'll need her during the last battle), but RJ got all poeticly cruel.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

yeah that was sort of his MO with female villains ... Liandrin, Galina, Elaida, Suroth, Sevanna, Moghedien, Mesaana, Graendal all ended up losing agency and being enslaved in one way of another.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, this is a... thing in the books.

Nice. You hit this one out of the park: all good points. I think one of the main problems with the Red Ajah is that it's mission is appealing to certain psychologically maladjusted types such as misandrists, the power hungry, and some general control freaks. Some Individuals like this would be attracted to both the Red and Black Ajahs.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

True, although there are black of all ajahs... the only reason there are more black reds is because the red is the largest ajah - and I think the reason the reds are the biggest ajah is because the job the Reds do is the only one of the 7 that is only able to be done by chanellers, all the other main focuses of the Aes Sedai (as defined by ajah) are things that exist outside of the Aes Sedai, but the jobs the reds do is a job that ONLY can be done by channelers, so if you are a woman and you feel you can channel, it makes sense that you could think this is your destiny.

Happy New Year. Do you feel bad for Elaida because she ended up as a damane? Had Elaida been killed in the Seanchan raid would you not feel bad for Elaida? I disagree with you. I do not think she subscribes to the end justify the means. Rather, I see her as a megalomaniac, power-hungry. Her pre-deposing activities and activities post raising to Amrylin Seat are destroyed to serve herself and only herself. Perhaps this is a consequence of Fain's taint. Yet I think the taint magnified these characteristics within Elaida that were always present. Fain's taint just brought them to the forefront. Similar to how taveren effect works. Tavereness cannot make someone do/say something they would never do/say. Just make them do something highly unlikely.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Well, from what Fain says, he specifically amplified her paranoia, so some of that craziness is him, I think. But I do think she has good intentions. Like, same as Niall... she thinks she's right. She's wrong, but she thinks she's right about how to fix things, and she will do whatever it takes to get to that point because in the end, if she's right, it will be better for everyone. As for how why I feel bad for her, I feel bad for her more because of how people see her. Her end fate is bad, but I would still spend most of my next read thinking "I wish she had friends and people she trusted who could know her intentions and maybe help her see the truth"... I said in this video that she doesn't care if people like her, but I also wonder if maybe she does care and doesn't realize it? Like, if she's that hard _because_ she assumes everyone hates her, so she puts up these massive walls. But inside, below where even she knows, she's actually hurt by the fact that no one likes her. She's doing the whole "reject them before they reject me" thing. I dunno. I just know that now I feel bad for her.

Yes, she had the foretelling that sent her to Caemlyn. She was there to help, but, also to control. Having power, having control was more important to her than what was right. She proved this was true with the arrest and imprisonment of Sylviana, the Red Ajah sister who refused to continue to beat Egwene. A great, bad person.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Well, it is worth noting that what happened with Sylviana was well after she was corrupted by her connection with Fain

@frankrobinsjr.1719

3 жыл бұрын

@@LezbiNerdy, true enough. But, the seed for it began when she allowed Alviaran of the Black to dictate what would happen.

Robert Jordan probably wrote WoT before J K Rowling came up with Dolores Umbridge, but having read Harry Potter, I can't help seeing Elaida as a Dolores Umbridge.

I never saw Elaida as a villain. Her goal was very aligned with Moiraine's. She wanted to be able to help the Dragon Reborn after a Foretelling told her the royal line of Andor was teh key to winning the LB. Sure, she didn't interpret it correctly, but what are you gonna do? Even when she unseated Siuan, I understood that she genuinely believed it was the right thing to do. Was there a bit of spitefulness to it? Yeah. That just makes her human, to me. Her interpretation of the Foretelling about he AS was understandable, since she had no reason to think another would take the position before the LB. Alviarin also believed it was about Elaida. Towards the end, I really felt badly for her.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, this is pretty much my thinking as well!

@thedungeon1578

3 жыл бұрын

I do agree, but she also tries to kill Gawyn and doesn't seem to care that Galad is a whitecloak. While obviously in her mind, Elaine is the most likely interpretation of her fortelling, why risk it? For all she knew, Gawyn or Galad could have been the key to winning the last battle, yet she constantly sends Gawyn into situations that she is hoping will get him killed, and even before the manipulations of the Black or even Fain, she just lets Galad run off and do whatever. She is very quick to make judgements and then assumes whatever she decided must be right, no matter what evidence comes along later to contradict it. I do feel bad for her, but much of her undoing in her own fault. Even once Alviarin is gone, she makes terrible choices repeatedly.

@michaelodonnell824

Жыл бұрын

No. She NEVER wanted to "Help" anyone. She always wanted to Control everything and Everyone. Her idea of "Helping" the Dragon Reborn was having him in a Collar with her holding his leash, and that was LONG before Padain Fain. So having her in a Collar at the end seemed completely Just to me!

I actually agree with you on this.

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

LOL!

2:54 it isn't their job that is bad, it is the way they go about it and their general attitude that is bad.

Dig it!

Elaida's first Foretelling was to see that Elayne's line was vital to confronting the Dark. So her motivates were are the same as Morgraine. She just was not flexible on the idea of the White Tower not controlling the Dragon Reborn.

I always felt more sorry for Elaida than anything else. I liked that the series had multiple characters like this, that weren't evil/aligned with The Dark One, but still ended up doing bad things thinking they were doing good. I also feel that her slavery/being taken by the Seanchan was more setting up for the Outrigger novels. Mat & Tion taking down their slave system with their help of Elaida would have been cool, and may have gone a long way to rebuild her character in the end. Anyways, Happy New Year!

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah! This is where I'm at, I feel bad for her now, it's weird. This has only started to happen in the past few weeks.

@fudgyvmp3961

3 жыл бұрын

I now really want Elaida to get redeemed post series by helping end the damane system and by defeating Moghedien, either when she escapes or when she's freed.

I agree with you. I didn't like her, but I didn't actively hate her until after Fain. That said, I didn't like that her story ended in slavery. As to your hopes for her post story, I wonder if the damage Fain did was permanent. Is there a way back? Could it be healed with time or the One Power?

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

My headcanon about the Fain-Taint thing is that it is temporary... like, it's a sickness that you can get over with time. But, that is just my headcanon, I have no idea if it's true, lol. Like, I honestly hadn't thought about it until reading your comment, cause I had assumed that was canon, and then thought about it and realized that was just in my head!

I also found myself feeling sympathy for her and I'm only starting book 10: Crossroads of Twilight . But to me she personifies the Aes Sedai. They feel and act superior to everyone; they are the sole arbitrator of events and ignore or are deaf to any other opinions. Even hearing news of Rand 's actions they refuse to accept it as any way plausible. Then she's manipulated by Fain. She a fly caught in a bottle.

In the case of Elida, I’m harkened to the opening line of the courts opinion in a case where a man attempted to avoid paying taxes as his “wages” were not “income”; “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” In essence, I feel that Elida is so narcissistic that she believes whatever benefits her is right, and will find a way to rationalize herself regardless. The ends will always justify the means for her. I agree with most of your points, but I always saw that more as Elida justifying herself to herself than Elida truly acting out of altruism. You say you envy her ability to not care if others like her, but she doesn’t care how others feel in general and empathy is sort of important. Elida is written as a sociopath.

I don't see Elaida ever being completely tamed by the Seanchan. With the madness of Aridhol constantly eating away at her sanity and feeding her paranoia, she would probably never come to trust the Sul'dam as other Damane usually do

New art credits song! Oh no! I loved the old one - is it gone forever?

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Aww, man, i'm sorry! I just had a few comments that it was super loud and jarring after the video, so I tried to find something a little... less. Also, that piece was very short, so I was always having to cut it and piece it together to be long enough for the art credits.

@bainchiad4689

3 жыл бұрын

@@LezbiNerdy fair enough! Where can I find the old song if I just wanna rock out to it? :)

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

@@bainchiad4689 LOL! I can see if I can find a way to send it to you on discord

I just want to add that Fain made worse whatever character traits she already had; same with Pedron Niall; and I also agree with all that you said. I like your channel and your opinion very much.

I agree on almost every point, except one at the very end. I think Elaida is hard woman, but not necessarily tough. When she breaks - And I think she would, before being freed - during her time as Damane, she would be one of those who would shatter to a point where she wouldn't have enough fight to left to help take the Seanchan down. Of course, this depends on how long she spent as Damane, but I find it hard to believe she would be freed in few months time, Dragon's peace would make it difficult for other nations to have proper leverage to get damane freed, and I doubt Elaida would be priority aes sedai after how many enemies she made during her time as Amyrlin Anyway, I do agree that gets too much shit from people. She is despicable person, but some people just are like that when given enough power and no checks

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

she did break and very quickly ... she taught the Seanchan Traveling in her first few weeks as a damane

@LezbiNerdy

3 жыл бұрын

Perhaps freed is the wrong word? I mean rescued. Min would recognize her, and in my post-book headcanon, Min would see her and recognize her and then have that whole "I never liked her, but she shouldn't be a slave" thing in her head, and it would rescue her with the help of Mat and Egeanin and... things ensue, lol

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

Liandrin, Pura, Guisin and Myrel are also all with the Seanchan which makes you have to wonder how Min will react when she sees an Aes Sedai face. She also knows Liandrin is a darkfriend and Liandrin knows Moghedien and will 100% rat her out if she gets caught as a darkfriend. Now I’m thinking Moghedien will get Liandrin to release her from the a’dam by offering to get rid of the shield on her.

Elaida thinks as a religious fanatic: to question is to lack faith. She is unable to change her mind with new information. Min exhibits scientific thinking. Her visions present her with the truth as she sees it, but she is willing, even eager sometimes, to change her belief if new data presents itself.

I bought the Gathering Storm audiobook after the 2020 election to feel better.

I've been reading WoT since the end of 1991 - there were only three books written then. So I have had many, many re-reads, especially during the "Time we do not speak about" years of Faile in captivity. And I matured a lot in that decade or more as we had kids and they started to grow. There is a bit in tDR where Elaida confronts the 3 supergirls and warns them that the Black Ajah walk the halls of the White Tower.... then a book later she is denying the existence of the BA. Wut? Then Fain is there with her and she starts to act just incredibly arrogant and plain stupid. I felt that Elaida had been corrupted by Fain and mentally worked on by one of the Chosen...umm, Forsaken. She had been extorted and twisted by Alviarin. That she had had her agency stolen - well at least partly. I never really liked her, though I warmed to her considering how Mo and Siuan treated her in New Spring, but I thought that she was a victim as well as a villain

The more I re-read the more appreciation I gain for the red ajah, they are one of the few ajahs that weren't asleep at the wheel. I still think that Eliada was a terrible Amyrlin and shouldn't have been promoted to that position. But I liked that we had a villain in someone that wasn't a dark friend, it adds dimension to this world that can too easily be black and white.

@daraussedai2163

3 жыл бұрын

I have to say I think RJ used the Red early in the series to set up conflict for Rand with Aes Sedai, showing us the negative stereotype of the Red. With that said I think the Red was just as sloppy as the other Ajah in their duty. If you consider the Red to be akin to a police force it would be like a Detective arresting a serial killer and then ignoring the results of the trial and any learnings gained by observation after imprisonment. The Red were too single minded and too rooted in "Aes Sedai" tradition in the same way the Yellow was mired in the belief that Healing was one set of weaves. Reds weren't out in the world anymore than the other Ajah and seemed only to go out to find male channelers once they were already active, why didn't the Red have the most extensive network of Eyes-and-Ears? Why not have outposts throughout the nations so Red Sisters were always on hand should a male channeler appear? Only the Blue Ajah seems to have been proactive in their approach to things and that is likely because they have such a broad purpose and each woman seems to have her own definition of her role in that purpose. Reds are fairly one-dimensional in their purpose but they don't seem to have done anything except react when someone else brought a male channeler to their attention. Hell, Rand likely would have either died learning or gone insane and killed a few folk in the TR without the Red ever discovering he was alive had he never left. Aes Sedai are close to myths in many of these rural communities and it's clear that outside of a handful of places there was no understood protocol on how to contact a Sister if your village had a male channeler appear. There are a million things the Reds could have done to be more effective IMO, most of which involve communicating with people rather than bullying them.

@thedungeon1578

3 жыл бұрын

@@daraussedai2163 This is an excellent point. The AS in general did a terrible job of finding ppl who can channel. Look how many girls the Seanchan found that no one else would have even known about on this side of the ocean. We can probably assume there's at least SOME proportionality among the men, and the success of the Black Tower's growth would seem to back that up. The Red are very passive, and just wait for men to show up. Many of the other worlds we see in either accepted tests, portal stones, etc all seem to indicate there's every chance Rand could have just grown up and either died from not learning, or else being a wilder who just tries to keep his powers hidden. How many men were out there who were self taught, maybe using the power a little here and there, going a little mad, but never even being found?

I find it interesting that those who try to Justify the actions of the Red Ajah never mention Damer Finn. According to the Aes Sedai, all men begin channelling in their late teens or early twenties and go mad before they are in their forties. Also, they must channel or rot... Damer Finn is in his late forties or early fifties when he turns up in the Black Tower. He is certainly the best male Healer and may well be Nynaeve's equal as a Healer. And he has shown no sign of going mad before Rand cleanses Saidin. Yet, we see from Thom's story that many Reds have no problem gentling young men, with NO Supports (against what happens to Logain). The Aes Sedai are untrustworthy, despite their oaths and even they openly acknowledge that they have ways around the Oaths. Much of the WoT is about the issues of unreliable narrators. So, why take the Red Ajah's word that their way was the only or best way to deal with Male Channelling?!

@LezbiNerdy

Жыл бұрын

Damer Flynn hadn't begun channeling before he showed up at the Black Tower as far as I know, so the madness had no reason to have begun. If he didn't have the spark, he wouldn't have started channeling until he was taught.

Elaida is a User. She wanted to be close to the House of Trakkand because of her viewing AND because she wanted to USE for her own power. "Use" can very quickly morph into Abuse and, for me, Elaida was always an Abuser...

The red ajah should've bonded every man they gentled as a warder

@Jimholy

3 жыл бұрын

That way the warder bond could substitute for the loss of saidin and they can talk to other men and help them and build a community of gentled men

@erikrungemadsen2081

2 жыл бұрын

And the reds would have to carry the responsibility of the gentling to it’s enevitable conclusion. That would also have given them a badass interpretation and purpose.

Elaida was terrifically wrong-headed, but I agree she wasn't evil. However, good people can do evil things in the name of good, e.g. the Whitecloaks and some people in the First Age I could mention but won't.

Wait, what? LN is gonna try to shake my simplistic opinion of Elaida and create a more nuanced view whereupon she is not 100% irredeemable evil and thus deserving of her fate? Laws. GLWT. **watches vid** Dammitsomuch! You actually did it. Ok. Now let's see if the showrunners can do the same. /I love your post book head Canon more than cheese. //I really like cheese. ///I sound fat on the internet.

Very nice 😍💋 💝💖♥️❤️

Elaida is a well-written character, but she never made it on my love to hate her list. She's too much of an incompetent bully. There's no sophistication to her machinations and she was never a credible threat to any of the characters I liked. Although she ends up as a damane I struggle to empathise with her. She is responsible for murder and torture herself and other than killing her or stilling her which merely amounts to a delayed death sentence I can't see any other fitting punishment. You can't just imprison an Aes Sedai like you could a common criminal. Especially since in my headcanon the Seanchan system of enslaving women who can channel begins to end in the outrigger novels as Tuon equips her armies with firearms and massproduced copies of the foxhead medallion instead. So just like in yours in my imagination Elaida wouldn't spend the rest of her life as a damane. Though I don't want the Seanchan to be overthrown, since I believe aside from their treatment of channellers they have the best system of government for the common people in Randland. As for the Red Ajah getting a bad rep, I don't think they do. Yes, male channellers had to be dealt with since Saidin had been tainted. The Reds mission was necessary. However, the Reds have the same problem as the Whitecloaks. They too have a good mission on paper, but they are so twisted by their own narrow-mindedness and prejudice that they do far more harm than good. Furthermore, the Reds show many of the worst qualities of all Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai on average have an overinflated belief of their own importance. They always run the danger of being self-righteous and arrogant. And within the Red- as the largest and strongest Ajah- those traits seem to be most prevalent. They have the strongest bias against all men and not just against those who can channel. Even among the Aes Sedai themselves they seem to look down on the other Ajahs the most and as I recall someone remarks how rare it is for a Red to have friends outside of her own Ajah. The only Reds who are portrayed as likeable are those who were brought down a peg like Teslyn or those who had been pariahs within their Ajah in the first place like Pevara.

Elaida is just the worst like I understand she wants to do good ultimately but shes still a paranoid narcissist and is more than willing to cross some horrible lines to get what she wants

this brings us to a question, are results of plans the test of success or are intentions count? for example. Hawkwing was an a-hole but he was tremendously successful in his reactions to events. Elaida had good intentions but her techniques were shit.