The coating on the Fuji lenses isn't what affects the image circle, it just happened to also change in the new design along with tweaks to the shape of the glass curves, which is why the coverage is different for the same focal length and aperture lens.

@MatMarrash

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the clarification! I've got a few friends that are into lens design that gave me an earful on this video. ;) Cheers!

Thanks so much for doing these videos Matt...learning a lot. I thought I understood image circle but there’s a lot more to it.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Bill, I'm glad to help get this information out there for folks curious about large format.

Thanks for making this very clear. I need to figure out the image circle for a vintage lens that came with my B&J 4x5 press camera. It’s a Voigtlander Heliar 135mm.

Awesome content Mat! Finally picked up my first large format (4X5) camera this week. So much more to learn now so thanks for sharing!

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Dave! Happy shooting and let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble for making and posting this and you other videos. Thoroughly enjoyed it even if I can't afford that bloody lens. Loved the Sinar though.

Well done. Good takeaway for the effective IC being aperture and focus dependent.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! IC is one of those things we don't initially think about until we start seeing clipped corners on our expensive films.

One of the best channels i have browsed for large format photography. Would like to understand swing and tilt movements as I am just going to buy a Sinar soon.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Nagesh! Be sure to check out the introduction video on view camera movements. There will be some Sinar specific content coming soon.

matt good video, but one more point, this image circle concept is why the DSLR'S dump resolution (Dx mode) automatically when a crop lens is attached to a full frame camera, as it would vignette otherwise, and you would have to crop anyway!

Good to see you stepping more in depth now. A Sinar P2 must be perfect for the current times 🙂

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Taking this one week at a time and while it will be a while, will do my best to cover each aspect I'm able to.

Loving these videos! Very useful. Reminds me that I need to get out and shoot more large format. Also reminds me that I need to get my hair cut!

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Haircuts are optional. Remember, there were studio photographers with mullets shooting LF back in the 1980's!

Thank you!

@MatMarrash

3 жыл бұрын

You're welcome!

great to see the sinar out in the wild 🙂 you don't take it out often enough, on the channel, the tachihara gets more of the limelight, should do a studio session with Tariq and this P2 see how macro you can go, as the flash in that studio would mean no problems with light loss, so perfect for this test.

Came for the photography, stayed for the Hair lol. Oh yeah, the Hair made me subscribe.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

It's something I plan to keep going!

Thank you very much for all the good input! I have this question That i cant really find an answer to.. if i would have a fujinon w 210 mm f5.6 lense, which is supposed to have an image circle of about 350mm at f22,- at which distance between lense and film plane does this imagecircle appear? From physic classes I remember the focal length to be the distance between the lenses plane and the focal point, as the point where all light is condensed into one point. I have the feeling that this definition does not apply to camera theory? Do I have to place the film roughly at the focal length? I want to build my own large format camera to shoot some paper negs. Thank you for any help..

Large format hair

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Haha, that's one way to think of it!

Hi mat this is Ainsley from Trinidad can you do a video on using a 6x17 film back on a 4x5 view camera, and what is the best lens that can be used on it.

@MatMarrash

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Ainsley thanks for the comment! I don't own a 6x17 back but know a few owners and will take your suggestion for making a video on roll film backs. As for lenses, I love the look of a wide angle like 90mm or 110mm on 617.

I like your content, but you really must consider doing this one over. 1/4 wave anti-reflection coatings do not have any effect, direct or indirect on lens geometry, or image circle. The image circle (which is another way of describing the lens's angle of view, just as the focal length is another way of describing its magnification) is determined by the design of the lens, and its focal length. A longer focal length of the same design will have a larger image circle, but two lenses of the same design will have the same image circle, which is in no way related to the coating (which is there to control reflections, not geometry). Most more modern view camera lenses have larger image circles than their predecessors, but this is because they have been redesigned, and have different optical formulae. Coatings enter into this only by the fact that better AR coatings allow lens designers to use more lens elements, and improve performance, without suffering from as much loss from reflections.

You should compare image circles or something like a 150mm press lens and a wide 150mm studio lens

Hi Matt. Thanks for the channel. I'm a new film and large format (4x5) and hoping you can point me in a direction to understand lens descriptions. I see lenses listed as Wollensak 12" Variable, or 7 1/2" 190mm f4.5 or 8 3/4 f4 or similar. I"m trying to understand what that means and how it might relate to my 4x5 . Thanks for your suggestion.

@MatMarrash

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul thanks for your question! When you see lenses listing any measurement in inches, they're describing focal length, so how far out you'll need to rack the bellows to achieve infinity focus. When looking at vintage lenses, it can be hard to distinguish what does and doesn't work for a particular format. Typically, older lenses with a stated focal length of 6" and longer will cover the 4x5" format. Sometimes researching both the inches and converted millimeters focal length can help turn up more data.

nice video, but with lens selection for large format, you mainly concentrate on mono-rail cameras, could you do a video on how one would choose lenses, etc. for field cameras, like linhof Technikas, shen hao, ebony, Canham, intrepid, and for different formats, like 4x5" and 5x7" ( 9x12 cm and 13x18 cm respectively)- the imperial camera designation takes either, all that is specific, is the right film for the holders, eg. a 5x7" is technically 12.7 x 17.7 or near enough, as the difference is only in the non-image area, ie this extra is only a wider guide track for the film, BUT you put a 5x7" sheet in this holder, the film won't lie flat in the holder, it "puckers" as there is 2mm or so more film trying to fit inside the holder!

Another great video, Mat! I don't think I fully appreciated a deeper understanding of image circle until this video. Is there a rule of thumb for image circle:format ratio that's considered good for landscapes? Have you noticed a difference in the quality of your images between the single vs multi-coated lenses? The pro/con weighing of better edge-to-edge sharpness vs. smaller image circle almost feels overly simplistic - I feel like I'm missing something. Provided that image sharpness is better as you get closer to the center of the frame and less sharp as you move to the edges, wouldn't you still see some benefit to the single-coated lens because the larger image circle means you don't have to get as close to the outer edges of the image circle? Maybe this is an incorrect understanding but the way I am trying to understand is that it's like you're putting a full frame lens with softer edges on a crop sensor camera and comparing it with a modern lens meant for sharp edges. I would think because you only need a smaller portion of the image circle on the full frame lens, the weaknesses of the outer edges wouldn't really be felt on the crop sensor. Am I way off base?

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Hey Madison, thanks for the comment. If you like playing with movements, I recommend having enough IC for the next format larger than what you're shooting. Usually plenty of room that way.

What is the head that your Sinar is mounted on? It doesn’t look like any of the ones mentioned in your video on the subject.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Great question! That is the Sinar Pan-Tilt head. It is a 2-way head, which has a very low center of gravity and a very strong carrying capacity. Many large monorail systems offered these types of heads to handle the tall and off-centered weight of their cameras.

Mat - as I understand it - the "spare" image circle available for movements can be a big deal with specific lenses i.e. if you stretch a lens to a slightly too big format. Is this really only a problem for bigger LF cameras or is it something you always need to consider when you're buying a lens for say a 4x5. In other words do 4x5 shooters normally have it easy and rarely bother about image circle?

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

I'd say it's easier for 4x5 since many lenses out there will cover, but still not all of them. There are still older medium format lenses that look like they could cover, but don't. The artsy-fartsy side of me wants to say don't worry about it, but the technical side of me has experienced one too many shots with clipped corners/loss of image circle.

@richardmoore8899

4 жыл бұрын

@@MatMarrash but is coverage enough. If you have a lens that covers say 101% of a format is that too risky ? And if so what kind of margin of excess coverage might you need in "normal" use with "normal" applications ? 10% , 20% extra breathing space. I may be overthinking this but I wouldn't want to buy a lens and then find I can't use the movements for "normal" applications. Not going to suggest what normal use is :-)

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Most lenses made for 4x5 will more than barely cover, but I like having an extra 40-50mm wiggle room for image circle. This allows for a generous amount of play even at distant/infinity focus. There was an old guide I remember reading that suggested going one format larger for image circle. But as you saw from the video, lenses with oodles of coverage can get really big, expensive, or both!

strange question - if I have to determine the image circle of an unusual lens, like a projector or enlarger lens, what should I do?

@MatMarrash

Жыл бұрын

Not a strange question at all! Though it won't be as easy to do as reading a chart, you could always setup the lens in a darkened room with the lens aiming out a window. On the other side you'll need a white paper/board/wall to view the light cast by the lens. With the lens focused far away near infinity focus, mark out the edges of the circle that you can still see sharply on the projection surface. A diameter measurement of that circle is your effective image circle!

That was the best description of how movements are accessing more of the image circle. I have the classic press camera lens, Raptar 135mm f4.7 on a 4x5 monorail and am interested in portraits of family members at the moment. Any affordable suggestions? I was looking at an old symmar 210 that is also a 370mm. I don't really get how these convertible lenses work. Also, what happens if your shutter has f 5.6 and your lens is f8. Does everything below f8 not matter?

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks Peter! 210's are great, affordable portrait lenses, the Schneider you're looking at converts it's focal length by removing the rear group behind the shutter. This changes the lens to a longer focal length that is slightly less sharp as a trade-off. Some shutters with come with dual scales showing you both apertures, but instead of f/5.6, when the lens is at 370 it is effectively f/12 because you haven't changed the size of the opening, just how far that light travels.

Yup, nice lens also nice price in eBay UK, US $6,899

@MatMarrash

2 жыл бұрын

Back when I was starting large format, folks were almost giving away this stuff! That scary number is why I'm more inclined to keep it and shoot with it.

Do i only need to worry about image circles if im using the camera movements?

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Good question! It's important to know about coverage if you're planning to shoot a larger format than the lens is intended for, and/or if you're using movements.

@xesse1

4 жыл бұрын

@@MatMarrash I've recently purchased a crown graphic with a 'graflex optar 135mm 4.7' lens, i've been trying to find the image circle size of it on the internet but i've had no luck. Do you think it'll be big enough to cover the 4x5 film?

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Those are made specifically for 4x5, you should have good wiggle room for movements when stopped-down to an aperture of f/16. If you shoot close subject matter like portraits and table-top, you won't even need to stop down to get the same coverage.

so in theory i am using medium format lenses with an adaptor on my digital camera...if i used a 6x7 lens i could use more of the digital sensor

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the question Norman! Typically, yes, a lens for a larger format will give you more wiggle room for movements when working with a smaller format sensor/film. This is why you'll see many MF lenses used with tilt-shift adapters on digital 35mm.

Hey Matt! Hope you are doing well dude! Nice to see your videos! I haven't been able to do much LF in the last two years but hope to get back into it!

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

Kiran! Oh my gosh it's been too long man, hope you are well! Life definitely can get out in front of photography very quickly and let me know if need anything getting back into it. So good to hear from you!

@KiranBhatWoodworking

4 жыл бұрын

@@MatMarrash Thanks man! Since I can't get out much I'm focussing on my woodworking. Currently in the process of redesigning and building out my tiny wood workshop. It would be cool to build to a large format from scratch and then shoot it. Right now maybe I can only build a pinhole camera, lol. Hopefully things return to normal and I can take out my Aero Ektar out! Are you able to go shoot outside?

there's no lens with an image circle big enough to capture all that hair !!!!! 🤣

@MatMarrash

Жыл бұрын

Two years ago, I would have believed you...but stay tuned to the channel, there are some BIG ones coming! ;)

@jezjoseph

Жыл бұрын

@@MatMarrash 🤣🤣🤣🤣I'm hear for it. Dropped in to learn about image circles as I'm dealving into 6x17 cameras with a view to heading towards proper large format

you're not going to get clipped corners using lower f numbers. the larger the aperture, the larger but more unevenly illuminated your image circle gets. stopped down your image gets more even but the outer edges of the image circle get clipped.

May be? ..But looks what it's done to his hair.

@MatMarrash

4 жыл бұрын

One could say it's bordering on Ultra Large Format!

lens coatings have ZERO effect on image circle or loss of sharpness towards the edges, and newer lenses tend to have better coverage as lens designs and manufacturing methods have improved.

@Murgoh

3 жыл бұрын

I assume the older lenses have larger image circles by design because the inferior coating technology makes the edges of the image softer so they need more "sacrificial" coverage so the actual picture can be placed in the sharp area of the circle? Meaning the modern lenses can be designed "tighter" because they have a larger usable portion of the image circle. So the lens coatings in themselves don't have an effect on the image circle IF the lens is identical in other respects but they influence the lens design, so newer lenses are designed with a smaller image circle. Is this correct? I'm currently getting a Fujinon W 180mm f5.6 shipped from Japan, this is the "newer" version with the lettering on the outside so the smaller image circle. Shouldn't matter as I'm (at least currently) only planning on using it on 4x5 so it should be plenty large anyway, right?