Very interesting video. Two things that came to my mind: The Middle Earth CCG uses lands/locations heavily both as a base for playing certain cards (e.g. certain artifacts can only be played in certain locations) and the aspect of travelling through the land (much like the idea of both the Hobbit and LotR) and each area you travel through influences what cards can be played (a sea serpent would require travel through locations that are themed "Sea"), and as a matter of fact, this CCG was often played with the use of a map of the game world. Second: There is a very old D and D setting, Dark Sun, where magic is worked by drawing energy from the land/environment. Each time, a spell is cast, the environment is depleted and destroyed a little more (although there are exceptions to it). So, when I first thought about "lands" as providing "mana" years ago, it really reminded me of that. And again: Super video!!!!

I've always thought Catan's resource system looked a lot like Magic's system. Yes, the tiles do more and they actually represent a map for the board pieces to go on. But basically everywhere you have a settlement, you can pull resources from. And it's not like the players of a game of Catan are the representation of a settlement or city. The player controls multiple settlements, and like in Magic, will get to make plays that expand the land they cover, increasing their resources.

@ManaCritics

18 күн бұрын

I think I see what you're getting at, but the...weirdness, if you want to call it that...that I perceive in Magic's system is that, while your lands (and I suppose a vague concept of "territory") increase over time, there's no interplay between your creatures and that happening. Well, there's an interaction between them, but it's usually in one direction only - once you get more lands, you can cast more creatures, but the creatures never really help you get more lands (there are exceptions, like Fertilid and Burnished Hart, but those are unique card functions, rather than the general role creatures play in the game). Whereas with Catan, it's more of a feedback loop. You use the resources generated by the lands to physically expand your presence on the gameboard, allowing you to use more land, allowing you to generate more resources, etc. I don't view Magic's setup as a *problem*, by any means - its a lighter-weight game design, and obviously I love the design as a whole. I view it more as an interesting quirk.

@Dynoboot

18 күн бұрын

@@ManaCritics So casting permanents using the mana resources you get from land isn't a physical expansion of your presence of the board then?

@ManaCritics

18 күн бұрын

@@Dynoboot It's just one directional - more lands means you can cast more creatures, but more creatures doesn't help you play more lands (again, with a few exceptions, but not as a rule). Whereas in Catan, and I think most games where land/territory is a factor, it's in more of a self-reinforcing system - more lands help you get more resources, AND more resources help you get more lands. I suppose you COULD argue that more creatures means increasing your likely number of future turns, and hence opportunities to DRAW more lands, but that's a bit more abstract. EDIT: Rereading your comment, maybe this is more what I'm trying to get at...it seems like, if you're playing a game most of the metaphorical actions in game are taken by creatures, and where getting more lands is one of the major mechanisms of the game, its just kind of funny that you never send the creatures TO the lands. If someone was pitching the concept of the game to me in the first place, I might have assumed the creatures were used to go discover/conquer new lands.

It occurs to me that, in addition to is obvious origin in leylines and other beliefs in the land being a source of power, lands as the ultimate resource make sense from a very material standpoint too as they are the origin of, like, pretty much all forms of resource extraction. Food? Comes from the land (or the animals that are part of said land). Metals? They come from the land. Textiles? Wood? Oil? Freshwater? Even the people of a city (for lands that aren't wilderness environments) are a resource representing their workforce or manpower. Whether it's intentional or by coincidence, it works out pretty well.

@ManaCritics

14 күн бұрын

I think its definitely coincidence, in that Garfield's original design as told through this short stories implies a duel/game being something that occurs on the scale of minutes, maybe hours. But, from where we stand now with tens of thousands of cards, and the work of hundreds(?) of different designers, there's a definite ambiguity to what any given thing represents that, as you suggest, can imply a lot of different stories - and that's just really cool.

Sorcery tcg is similar to magic in its resource system, with the addition that your "sites" (lands) actually make up the battlefield and your creatures exist on them.

@ManaCritics

16 күн бұрын

I've heard Sorcery mentioned a few times on Reddit, but this might be the detail that piques my interest enough to investigate further.

5:50 Lor mentioned!!!

@ManaCritics

18 күн бұрын

We take it you're a fan? Julie's played it, but Derek hasn't. Would you recommend getting into at this point in time?

I think none of these ludonarrative interpretations are mutually exclusive. "Tapping" a Land can mean different things for different mages. To a boros mage being there to rally his summons might matter while a Dimir mage might more easily pull from far off places with no care for consent. At the same time it's easy to imagine a Planeswalker summoning entire landscapes into different planes.

@ManaCritics

16 күн бұрын

Valid, and the more I think about this, I think this is an interesting aspect...possibly a strength, possibly just a neutral attribute...of a game designed at this level of abstraction. Similarly, you could come up scenarios to plausibly explain a turn as representing minutes, or years. The scope of a given duel might be the size of a football field, or move across planes (as evidenced specifically by Battlebond and Planechase, respectively). In any case, "ludonarrative" was not in my vocabulary, and now I'm following that rabbit hole, so thanks for introducing me to it.

@Todesnuss

16 күн бұрын

@@ManaCritics I'd say at least in Commander this malleable scope is not just a strength but possibly a major part of why it's as big as it is and why all the IP crossovers kind of work. Each player gets to create their own narrative lense with their deck. Each game will in effect create four different stories that are equally valid. Nobody sits down afterwards to agree on what that game represented but those who care will have a story in their mind.

First !!

@ManaCritics

21 күн бұрын

I wish we could include images in comments, because I would absolutely reply with the Unfinity "Blue Ribbon." Alas, I cannot, but the sentiment is there.