Massive improvement. Dont even need to wear headphones to hear it. Good stuff.

A Matt Cremona silhouette on each panel would complete it! Lol.

Hey Marc, Awesome video. We wrap all of our acoustic panels in a .31 mil plastic as well to keep everything safe and clean. We've taken measurements and tested the effects of it, and it has no meaningful impact on the performance of the panels. Thanks for sharing the importance of good acoustics!

The reality is a really energy efficient space is likely a very acoustically minimal space. When you were explaining how sound transfers, you could've easily been talking about thermal bridging. All sounds fantastic.

Thick and quick.. hahahahaha. Always nice when someone else's humor aligns with mine. Thanks for the videos!

I made a handful of these not for audio/recording purposes, but as you mention, just to cut down noise in the shop. They seriously help!!!

Thanks. I was literally going to start a project today. Perfect and the box store actually has it in stock. It pays to watch KZread in the morning.

I'm into this, please make more acoustic treatments. The difference these made in your audio was astounding

Really impressed with how much difference they make! Nicely done Marc.

Not surprisingly, the real star of this video is the Make it Snow sweatshirt. You can find them here: amzn.to/3VWhgqC

Sounds way better! Also love the sweater.

I'm incredibly impressed at how big a difference that made. Great job!

Another option for insulation is recycled denim. It’s a great alternative to rockwool and sometimes better. But it is more expensive. But you also don’t have to worry about the fibers

I can definitely hear the improvement in the clips. I always appreciate you honesty and even more the jokes you throw in your videos.

Great video! I work with architects and engineers to design TV & webcasting studio Lighting systems, so I work with acousticians all the time. I'm surprised that the plastic didn't make a difference but it will definitely help to keep the Rockwool from being inundated with fine sawdust. I'm assuming you'll need to vacuum out those panels, maybe annually? Staggering the panels on parallel surfaces and keeping them off the walls were also very smart moves as the key is to diffuse reflected sound from large surfaces and not allow it a clean reflection (slap back) from a second surface. To get rid of the remaining reverberation, if you feel it's necessary, the lowest cost solution that we use all the time in TV studios is to line the ceiling with duct liner (product used INSIDE large AC ducts to cut down noise from air movement, not the foil covered external duct wrap which is different). It comes in rolls, 24" wide is common, and should be available from commercial construction suppliers. It's much less expensive than using acoustic foam and has better flame retardant properties as some less expensive acoustic foam is not fire rated which can be dangerous (remember happyland club fire). The duct liner can be stapled or glued to the ceiling and it will really cut down on reverberation on camera and make the room quieter when using your power tools. We also apply it straight to walls in large network studios that are not seen on camera and cover it with chicken wire screwed straight through the duct liner with large washers to hold the chicken wire down. This way you can still lean ladders and tools and boards against the wall without them getting caught on or damaging the duct liner. (Not sure how much sawdust they would catch on the walls of a shop however) As you mentioned what you did has already helped the acoustics of the room dramatically so you may not feel it necessary to treat the ceiling. but if you want to cut down tool noise I'd recommend this approach.

@douglasbrown3493

Жыл бұрын

Mark could have gone totally off the wall and removed all the 90 degree corners in the room.

Very impressive how much difference it made, which is surprising with the plastic. Who knew. The "easy" trick to figure out if a fabric is acoustically transparent is how easy you can make air move through it ... and then you come along with the plastic wrap and toss that out the window. Glad it's working out for you, makes a HUGE difference on the listeners end. Can still hear a tiny bit of reflection, but honestly that's only because I was specifically listening for it and I'm a semi-trained professional :D

@curtfatherree7474

Жыл бұрын

I think in the case of the plastic, it's thin enough that even though air from sound waves might not pass through it, the vibrations produced by whatever made the sound will, so the material behind it (in this case rockwool) can still perform pretty much as intended.

Firstly, a few weeks back I commented on the echo. For that, I apologize. Of course you already knew and I’ve regretted the comment ever since. Secondly, another great informative video and for that, I thank you. Cheers.

It does sound so much better and doesn't seem that expensive to do . Thanks and take care .

Nice result! Love it when the sound is improved in a space! Bonus for having the panels off the wall is that it effectively lowers the absorptive frequency range to a similar degree as a panel as deep as the distance from the front of the panel to the wall. (Source, acoustics minor and several years in the recording industry as an audio engineer).

Great video and good choices. I really like your panels. My first band hall was a makeshift kindergarten room with concrete floors and plaster walls with windows, directly above the bus garage. We were all going deaf. My kids and parents saved egg cartons for weeks and donated them to the band. They looked awful but it did the trick. Lastly they replaced all the side curtains on the stage and they gave me the old ones. We hung them up on the back wall; wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Bam! Dead as a recording studio.

Mate, I'm 70 years old and I still appreciate your puerile humour.

Massive improvement..! 👍

Really does make a big difference!

You have done a very thorough job balancing between cost, effectiveness, aesthetics, and practicality Mark. The topic of Acoustics is a pretty deep and broad STEM topic but using the considerations you have touched on makes it very logical and cost-effective for any DIYer out there. Even as a retired materials scientist, I have learned a lot from my daughter who is a post-graduate Acoustics engineer about the deep science and technology of Acoustics. Of course, the Gold standard is the Anechoic chamber which can run pretty expensive if you are designing high-end audio or other sound-sensitive pieces of equipment.

Great detail. Nice job. Impressive sound difference. 😊

We did something like this in a recording studio we built recently. Worked very well.

Hey, these panels worked out great! I've got a quick correction on why the air gap helps. Essentially these panels are most effective on frequencies at their highest amplitudes/energy, and sound is naturally at a low energy when bouncing off a wall. That means that a panel close to the wall will do little except for the wavelengths that manage to build up energy at the distance where there's still an absorptive material to slow it down. As lower frequencies have longer wavelengths, you'll be able to absorb lower frequencies by having that air gap behind the panel. Hope that's not just totally confusing! I'm trying to not get too technical.

Good video. Just a point from someone who has cut a lot of corner blocks for building theatrical flats. Instead of cutting a 45° cut and the swinging the blade to 90° and swinging the blade back to 45° and repeating, you can rip a narrower strip, cut a 45° cut turn over (roll) the strip cut another 45° cut etc. It is a lot less changing of the blade angle and much quicker.

@markdlondon

Жыл бұрын

Are you old enough to remember using metal nail blocks we'd put under the corners when building flats so the 3p nails would bend back into the front rail when attaching the corner blocks? That was old school!

@DAS-Machina

Жыл бұрын

@@markdlondon Clinch nails yes!

@DAS-Machina

Жыл бұрын

@@markdlondon Clinch nails

Marc, as someone in commercial construction that uses thermafiber and rockwool....you made the right choice in wrapping that in plastic. It's shredded glass on top of other fibers. I've literally found coke bottle labels in it while cutting it.

Pretty close to what I did in the audio room. 👍 Mine were 4” deep, fiberglass in lieu of rock wool (not avail at that time), burlap and homosote backs. Had em for 20+ years now and they do the trick right nicely. For those interested in audio rooms…Audio Masters Handbook rules, especially on room nodes. Homosote also helps w wall ceiling soundproofing..especially behind 5/8” Sheetrock. Hint use construction adhesive to glue homosote and back of sheetrock when installing, helps avoid “drumhead syndrome”.

@benhatcher2603

Жыл бұрын

I hung a drop ceiling in my basement shop. The panels are about the same consistency of Homosote, maybe a bit less dense. It works great at reducing sound transmission to the upstairs. It is difficult to tell the difference between the dust collector and the forced air coming out of the furnace vents even in the room right above it. I hadn't thought about it reducing echos in the room but I suppose it does some of that as well.

Wow what a difference!

It made a big difference!! 👍💙

Great audio. Sounds very natural to me on my JBL Control SP's.

Love the sweater!

Great video. Very informative

Many years ago during my church sound days, we were having the new sanctuary professionally fixed in a similar fashion. I asked the gentleman how I could accomplish the same thing cheaper for our large youth room. He suggested (and we used) fiberglass duct board covered the same way as yours. Worked awesomely! Only thing that would not have done is given us an air gap, but we were pleased with our results. (Upside was we didn't need to create a frame.)

Well done Mark 👍👍👍👍👍

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

Thanks 👍

It’s nice to know that you edit your content as the same 12 year old that we are when watching. Love the new setup.

Recording decent audio in a shop is always a challenge. Thanks for the great tips! Gonna try this out

Good job! Sounds a lot better. 😀👍

Love the shirt!

Might want to make an indeed table for your table saw. I made one that’s adjustable that I can use for my bandsaw as well. The extra support makes a huge difference. Have a good one.

I build high end home theaters and also wrap the insulation to prevent fiber shedding, however we use weed mat vs plastic to maintain acoustic transparency.

That's a real good idea the way you break down the plywood is easier and safer.

Great instruction.

Great info, Marc! I'm a recording engineer and what you did was attenuate the echo. Soundproofing is a whole nuther thing and it's crazy expensive if you want to do it. I soundproofed a 10x12 bedroom so my son and I could play our drums whenever we wanted and the final bill was close to $10,000. It worked but now I have a 8-1/2x10-1/2 room that is acoustically dead and makes people uncomfortable to be in. BTW, your brain is used to processing echo, a little is OK. You did a great job with the panel placement. Another reason to wrap the Rockwool is your environment. That stuff starts to get damp with the humidity in MO and it's going to lose it's deadening properties not to mention it's going to stink up the place.

@dstaff4134

Жыл бұрын

I previously calibrated sound meters plus get a hearing test for employment. Those sound dead rooms are no joke, listening to your own heart beat is very strange indeed.

@mjolnirswrath23

Жыл бұрын

@@dstaff4134 An Anechoic recording chamber , room within a room , Father built them and taught me engineer them as a kid. Essentially all you need do instead is vacuum seal the Surrounding room at every location except for entry points " Soundwave" air Watts pressure wave propagation fields cannot travel in a Vacuum...at least not at the Low 172 decibels range. Which few people have Ever heard higher from driver's...also A Vacuum Chamber is an Excellent means of Insulation too...

A very big improvement in sound quality. Not knowing better, I thought you would have needed wall to wall panels. Floor to ceiling

As others have said - YUGE difference, no headphones needed. Impressive - most impressive.

Marc, nice work. The sound is much better-controlled. That info on the air gap and panel spacing is good info. One note on sound proofing. I read a sound engineer’s guide to sound proofing a workshop and his thoughts have been verified by numerous people who copied his design. His primary point was that there is no better bang for your buck than 5/8 drywall for sound proofing a room. Granted, the design is complicated, but if you’re going buy sound deadening panels, 5/8” drywall at the local big box should be anyone’s starting point.

This is just fun!

I loved the info and I'll be adding stuff like this when the new shop is complete (or started...). I will admit that I thought "doodie" just as you said it. 😅🤣😂

Another super cheap thing you can do is put in hard and angled flat panels in some of the gaps at steep angles in relation to the wall, it disrupts the sound waves and increases the bouncing it does around the room before it reaches your ears/mic, giving it more chances to either hit a soft panel, or simply just robbing it of even more energy before it reaches something to hear it. But at that point you’re chasing diminishing returns for your current audio setup as the panels already make it much better, but if you get more sensitive equipment it might be worth it.

Your panel design is very similar to what I built for acoustic treatment in my church auditorium. You can also try hanging your constructed panels from the ceiling in various places - can be really effective!

Love the panels and their effect on sound. Rockwool is good, OC703 is better, but their performance is close. When I built my dedicated home theater, my acoustician specified 4" OC703 on the back and front walls, and 2" on the sides all mounted flush with the walls. The bass traps in the front corners were made from OC 703 as well. Your solutions seems to make a great difference we can hear. Well done!

What a massive improvement. Although there's still some reverb, that' a great first step. Your panels look similar to what Rex Kreuger made on his channel.

Well, your Christmas sweater is better than mine. Now off to hit the Google machine to find one. I love it

Great overview on acoustic treatment! I would only add that clouds’ main benefit is increasing the probability of intersecting more reflections - the further away from the surface, the larger the “shadow area” for intersecting reflections from the ceiling. Also, you are placing velocity absorption further away from the surface, that boosts lower frequency absorption.

Excellent video! I've been planning on doing some thing like this for my very echoey shop/classroom, and this helps a lot. I'm very curious about what your next steps are?

You really knocked the reverb down *a lot*. Nice. I can still hear a little ringing, a little bit of resonance or something. A certain frequency hanging just a bit and then very quickly dying.

I wasn't paying full attention to your sweater, in one scene you can only read the top "make it", i was thinking to myself "it better say snow on the bottom" IT DOES and I now want that sweater .. !! :D nice panels btw, make it so, much quieter.

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

Here you go. :) amzn.to/3VWhgqC

Doing the same but adding a decorative front pannel that will also act as a diffuser as well. Will cut the front pannel on a CNC for some geometric design. You should do also do a video on your theater setup!.

nicely done, you may not want to add any more panels it is possible to overdue it and then the audio is dry, a little reverb is a good thing, it makes the room live and improves the sound. yes your are recording but the main purpose is not music, your not recording a symphony or even a rock band but your voice for the purpose of communication.

As usual, very well explained. Just curious how you hung the panels and how far from the walls are they?

About cutting the rock-wool, or any foam, try a electric carving knife. I’ve built many studios and it cuts through foam and rockwool like butter. Great vid as always

An air gap behind the panel helps a lot. It’s good for the reason you mentioned (standing waves) but super important for bass absorption. I usually build my panels with a build in gap so they’re not off against the wall, but still a gap. Not much sound will bounce behind the panels, but bass frequencies are very long (41hz is 21ft!!!). The rec I’ve seen is air gap should be equal to but less than the thickness of the material, effectively doubling it. A larger gap can start to reduce effectiveness of midrange. Now the next and most important question. When is the home theater tour?

I remember reading a report once. People tolerate bad video, but not bad audio.

I may have to do something like this as I have a small shop

It's like watching a young Wallace Sabine!

Excellent work, Marc! Thanks for all the tips! 😃 But yeah, they're going to work great as an earthquake alarm as well. 😬 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

@hamubice1551

Жыл бұрын

Is he likely to get earthquakes where he is?

@MCsCreations

Жыл бұрын

@@hamubice1551 I have no idea, but if it happens the acoustic panels are going to shake a lot!

Show de bola 💯💯💯

I liked this. I wondered about the plastic but I think you're right. I know. You're always right. I don't care what your wife says.

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

Ugh....she never believes me, man!

@wittworks

Жыл бұрын

@@woodwhisperer I know. I know. See you in Group Therapy on Friday night. Please bring better coffee.

A significant improvement on the videos. The change is discernable even without headphones. I have a question about maintenance - in spite of best efforts the woodshop will always have ambient dust. Do you plan on periodic cleaning of the panels? If so, how often?

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

No. Having worked in shops in the past with acoustic panels of various makes, ambient dust has made absolutely no difference in the performance of the panels. So they'll get dusted off with air during shop blowouts but I won't be thinking much about it beyond that.

If you need 49.5" and 24" pieces, just cut one end of the ply at 49.5" then rip your strips out of that. You'll be left with a piece 46.6" x 48". Turn the piece so that your strips are 48" long then cut in half. You'll lose one strip but you won't waste anything.

I'd love to see measurements of well this cuts down on possible tool noise as well. I have a basement shop and was thinking of adding rockwool to several of the ceiling joist cavities (the upstairs floor joist cavities). My concrete walls were dressed out with 1" solid core double faced foam (vapor barrier) 2x4s, standard 4" fiberglass insulation and covered with pegboard (to allow airflow along with abilities to use it for hanging stuff). It alone made a huge difference in sound in the shop, but noise still carries to the upstairs of course, because of the lack of anything to absorb sound up through the floor cavities. Fully soundproofing the floor is just not an option right now and I'm only looking to cut it down (say 50%).

Bottom line is that the audio sounds great. I agree that you probably don't need to do anything more unless it helps with the machine noise.

thanks

make some corner panels. corners are a big area of sound reflection!

Love the sweater! Great info too 👏👏 I could easily see doing something like this in my garage shop and in my TV room. I have a cathedral ceiling which is great for some things and not so good for others. It projects sound down the hall into other rooms louder than it is in the actual room. It acts like a speaker box. I think this technique could help improve and quality and keep the room from projecting so much.

Of course, if you don't want to go to the other extreme either. I was invited to a tour of the HP mfg facility in Boise a few years ago. They had an anachoeic chamber for testing printer sound levels. There was absolutely no reverberant sound in that room and it was I was very uncomfortable.

Ive done some research myself for our open floor plan house. Seems the deadening material is the most of the cost. Pretty easy build though

Recommended reading: "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros". A ton of data about how to create rooms that sound good without also being dead. There are also some interesting woodworking projects to be found in bass traps, ironically.

even if these panels are only a 'half measure' - I have to say I like that the acoustic treatments so far manage to kill enough echoes while leaving the sound in the space feeling 'live' and also (at least a little bit) 'big' - it is a large open space. Maybe it can sound like a large open space?

That worked really well to my worn-out ears. Also, IIRC, rock wool only causes cancer in California. I like your instructionals, but on this project I'll keep my echo-y shop because the reverb paired with my tinnitus and military hearing loss means everyone has to repeat what they're saying to me, which eventually frustrates them and makes them interrupt me less... pro tip.

The Bandrew Podcastage handclap test would give a good, objective measure of the reverb in your space. (If you want to go super scientific, you could sample the impulse response of the room digitally, but that's a bit much.)

Nice video! What would the cost be per panel?

Let me be the first to say this video sounds amazing

Nice quick solution. Does sawdust become an issue?

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

Not really. They'll get "dusted off" during shop blowouts but outside of that, I won't be thinking much about them once installed.

I would recommend treating that fabric with fire retardant spray. It's simple and relatively inexpensive to apply. The rockwool is inherently flame resistant to temperatures about 1,000C.

Any thoughts on using this approach when building a new shop and insulating with rock wool, would this still hold pragmatically? ie Forgoing drywall and using an acoustically transparent material for sheeting?

You may not have too much trouble with sawdust sticking to the panels because your dust collection is good and you have a humid environment, which cuts down on static.

Me patiently waiting on TWW to upload the table build video.

Marc you can also use reverb remove plugin for DaVinci resolve 🙂 regards!

@woodwhisperer

Жыл бұрын

That's what we call "last resort". :)

@d.i.d

Жыл бұрын

@@woodwhisperer Acon Digital DeVerberate 3 . Try it 🙂

@chrisjaustin88

Жыл бұрын

#fixitinpost 🤣😂🤣😂

@CJProSound

Жыл бұрын

As someone who works in post audio... the phrase "fix it in post" is a four-letter word!!!! Fix it at the source!!!!!! :). And for what it's worth, some natural sounding verb is better than dead and I think what Marc is getting is quite natural sounding. Personally, I don't use the de-reverb plugins (used most of them) because they tend to create unwanted artifacts. Natural and a little noisy is always better than artificially quiet.

@d.i.d

Жыл бұрын

@@CJProSound more stuff in room - less reverb 🙂 im woring with audio too. New AI plugins learn and doing magic, much better results than soft 5y ago. Regards

Fantastic video as always. For sound Proofing advice check out the Gosforth Handyman. As well as being a great guy and a knowledgeable, talented KZreadr and handyman, Andy is a competent drummer and has a building designed with soundproofing as a priority 🌞

Question I'm planing on building my own woodworking shop. I want to build a timber frame shop. Here's the thing. I literally live across the street from a high school. So if I get the 40x40 building i want. what would you recommend one to do?

Is it worth having the panels mounted at slightly different angles to one another? Just to alter the path the sound rebounds back?

Great video, thank you. What is the optimal height for placement of the panels? I'm looking to do this in a pole barn with closed cell spray insulation. The walls are 16' and I'd prefer they be as high as possible but is that not optimal for performance? Thanks!

@markdlondon

Жыл бұрын

Lower down on the walls you are usually breaking up the surface with tool storage and lumber racks etc. So there's not really an acoustic need down low. You should use these on large open flat surfaces. This is where sound creates the strongest echoes.

@markdlondon

Жыл бұрын

In a large barn You can also hang vertical fabric wrapped panels 2' tall x 8' wide from the ceiling spaced every 6 to 8' or so apart to cut down on reflections off the large ceilings. This is a trick used when turning a barn into a theater to reduce echos and noise without having to treat the entire ceiling. Try staggering the heights they hang at as well (but keep parallel to floor)

@A6Legit

Жыл бұрын

Put them everywhere for best results lol. Probably around the height where the noise is coming from. You can also hang them horizontally from the ceiling, they call it "acoustic ceiling clouds".

@mattsnyder4754

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, not really. For the level of “treatment” you’re looking to accomplish, it’s more about how much surface area you’re covering and less about where. If you’re building a concert hall, there’s a lot more that goes into it. But if you’re just looking to “make the echo go away”, you just want to cover a good percentage of your surface area. Don’t forget the ceiling too!

@___Drew___

Жыл бұрын

@Mark London thanks for the recommendation. This is more of a recreational area and reducing echo for a projector theatre is my main reason for wanting to address this issue. I will look further into the fabric wrapped panels. 👍🏻

I noticed I noticed i noticed a a a a big big big big improvement improvement improvement improvement. Thats on a 5.1 avr system no headphones. But its a 2500 dollar reciver and 500 in speakers. But as an audiophile that deals in home and car audio I know what I'm listening to. The room got pretty dead, this would help in some home audio application Kill some of the reflective sound waves. If you opt to add some on the ceiling alternate the panels some right some left some east some west and one end 1" off the celing the other 3" off the celing that will kill any remaining standing waves. It might make it so dead you can drop a pin and not hear it hit the floor. Also any power tools will loose some spl you can download a spl meter as well as a tone generator application on your smartphone The spl meter would have been good to listen to covered and not covered rokwool I also belive poly foam would absorb sound but not as good as rokwool. My older brother built a practice room for playing his electric guitar in, using rokwool on the walls and celing it did pretty dam good job. The sound only partly made it upstairs. I had a negibor do band practice in his garage next door, it got to listen to it in every room of my house at over 71 db spl. Legal limit is 65 db at the property line. He used moving blankets, it didn't do a thing. I kept telling him if he kept it up id hook up a car audio system in my garage that was twice as loud. Ive done systems that hit 157 db spl. But I didnt think it was nessary to knock pictures off the guys walls 2 blocks away to prove a point. I heard enough of that shit at work.

❤️

Wonder if you were to buy the cheapest 1" bed topper memory foam, if that would actually be cheaper. :P

The fabric you wrapped the panels in does not appear in the supply list. Could you link that as well? Thanks!