O R T H O

@nuttbaked

Ай бұрын

split keyboards video when

@The_Gourd_cya

Ай бұрын

COLUMNAR STAGGERED

@ConsecDesign

Ай бұрын

​@@The_Gourd_cyaSPLIT STAGGERED COLUMNAR

@saeedb3r

Ай бұрын

Dave you should try Corne split keyboard

@ronochow

Ай бұрын

Are you able to switch back to staggered layout pretty easily? Is it possible to use Ortho at home and then go back to regular elsewhere and not have issues once you've learned Ortho fully?

Just wait till he finds split curved keyboards. Its called dactyl btw.

@jackyfong1717

Ай бұрын

and praises the ergonomics

@shApYT

Ай бұрын

@@jackyfong1717 dactyl dactyl dactyl

@InnocentiusLacrimosa

Ай бұрын

Thanks for introducing that rabbit hole to me 😉

@naung01

Ай бұрын

I have a dactyl, it's great!

@sierratangoandras

29 күн бұрын

ptero- ?

Nobody can convince me that any non-split ortho board is ergonomic

@bocahdongo7769

Ай бұрын

As user of custom designed 86 key ortho southpaw keyboard, it is not ergonomic Unless the southpaw part

@ReclaimerTyphoon

26 күн бұрын

Everything is relative. It's *more* ergonomic than a staggered-column keyboard, but it's not as ergonomic as a split, and/or dactyl keyboard.

@lopodyr

26 күн бұрын

I use a 75% ortho with the numpad in the center. It makes it somewhat split, and I love it personally. It looks clean and feels great to me.

@bocahdongo7769

26 күн бұрын

@@lopodyr let me guess Punk75

@valegory

22 күн бұрын

It's still more ergonomic than a staggered board, it just doesn't resolve all the issues without the split. I currently use a split ortho 40% as my daily driver but 3 years before that i started w/ a 40% non-split ortho board and it significantly improved finger fatigue for long programming sessions because i didn't have to make wild reaches for symbols. it still suffers from forcing you into a should hunch and some wrist angling, though it's less egregious on my wrists than staggered boards. i think they're a good transitional board between non-split and split

Some things worth noting about ergonomic keyboards... 1. Ortholinear keyboards are typically columnar, but good ergonomic keyboards should have row stagger. (If you put your hands in a natural resting position their should be a curve to your finger placement). Row linear layouts increase the risk of "trigger finger" and is not a good design. 2. The wrist strain you are explaining sounds like RSI from "Ulnar Deviation". This is something fixed by a split keyboard layout, but has nothing to do with columnar keyboard ergonomics. My speculation is that your wrist pain had more to do with not using your pinkies when typing which, on a non-split keyboard that already causes bad ulnar deviation, would dial those extensions (where you should be using your pinkies) to 11. 3. The other wrist related RSI would be extension (your wrists being arched up instead of straight on the keyboard). You should consider a wrist rest for your keyboard since many of the ones you show have a fairly high profile which makes them terrible ergonomic keyboards. This is why many people like apple keyboards so much: their thin profile minimizes wrist extension which is usually the most common type of RSI people experience since the strain exists even when you are resting your hands and not actively typing. 4. Ergonomic keyboards should have a natural tenting angle to prevent pronation (this would be the weird curved hump you see in most "ergonomic keyboards"). This is also why split keyboards tend to have adjustable feet for angling them closer to a 'natural' hand shaking position. It is also why "ergonomic mice" are vertical. In conclusion, every keyboard you showed in that video had absolutely terrible ergonomics. They look cool, but if someone actually cares about minimizing RSI they should pass on all of these. It is important to identify what type of strain is causing discomfort and choose a keyboard that minimizes that. For Ulnar Deviation you should look at split keyboards. For wrist extension you should look at moving your keyboards further away, getting a good wrist rest, etc. For pronation you should get a keyboard that rotates the resting position of your hand closer to the position of a handshake (Such as the Logitech ERGO K860). If you have finger pain or "trigger finger" than it may be worth exploring an ortholinear layout, but don't expect it to move the needle that much. If that is something that really bothers you, than you should really consider biting the bullet on learning an ergonomic keyboard layout such as Dvorak, Workman, or Colemak-DH. The best of all worlds would be keyboards like the Glove-80, the Kinesis Advantage 360, the ZSA Voyager/Moonlander, etc. These are all very expensive keyboards, but that's the price to have it all.

@theflawedamy

27 күн бұрын

Ok so I'm not insane. Like your hands and fingers aren't straight they curve and stuff, how can this possibly be more ergonomic than a regular keyboard where it seems better suited for curved fingers.

@a_plastic_bag

27 күн бұрын

@@theflawedamy Ergonomic keyboards often stagger keys, but not in the way QWERTY does it. Typically a lot less aggressive. They’ll also offset the keys to the left instead of the right for the left side of the keyboard. Ortholinear can be quite comfortable, but it depends on how the whole keyboard is put together. The Glove80, for example, curves the keyboard around your hands.

@ReclaimerTyphoon

26 күн бұрын

​@@theflawedamy They are relatively straight. Put your hand in a "handshake" (neutral) position, and open and close your grip like you're Spider-Man - but with all of your fingers, instead of just the web-shooter-activating ones. Don't fight the natural tension of your hands/don't dramatically splay your fingers (move them apart) in order to prove your point - just move them real quick. Your fingers are moving on a relatively linear path. Not perfectly linear, but close enough. When that person said that the rows should be staggered, I don't think they mean like a regular keyboard - I think they mean that the keyboard should be "cupped", or bowl shaped. Google: "Dactyl Manuform Keyboard". For each finger, there is a "max reach/max retract" distance (you pinky can't reach as far as your middle finger, for example, so the "top" key for each finger shouldn't be the same distance from the base of your hand), and the top and bottom rows should be angled toward where the pad of your finger would land, because that's how curling digits land on things when reaching/retracting - not straight down.

@angryakita3870

26 күн бұрын

Also add Svalboard/lalboard/datahand to the ‘best of both worlds’ list

@Kiaulen

26 күн бұрын

And the keyboardio full size keyboards to that list as well

Now try a split ortho linear one. That's what's really ergonomic. The rectangular bricks are good, but way beyond what comfortable typing can be.

@bawbsmith

Ай бұрын

"Way beyond" implies that it's way ahead, which I don't think is what you were trying to say

@Simon-tr9hv

Ай бұрын

I got the moonlander, the pre-made one, it sure takes long time to learn but with a 3d printed higher base, it's so much more comfortable to use than normal staggered mechanical

@henkdevries

Ай бұрын

​@@Simon-tr9hv now try a 40% split ;)

@huantian

29 күн бұрын

Even better, splayed columnar split!

@blazeknightranger

29 күн бұрын

split column staggered is def the way to go for keebs

This looks like a Lego brick

@TomNook.

Ай бұрын

Savage 🤣

@osvy5144

Ай бұрын

and it looks amazing

@gurudath_s

Ай бұрын

@@osvy5144yes it does look amazing

@gurudath_s

Ай бұрын

But I'm not sure I'd be willing to put in the amount of effort required to unlearn and relearn typing on such a keyboard.

@Justakatto

Ай бұрын

About as useful as a lego brick too.

Ortho but not split sounds like a nightmare. Look how cramped your hands are together.

@jakeharms1386

Ай бұрын

I mean it’s the same as on any non-split

@Simon-tr9hv

Ай бұрын

It's hilarious he call a 64 key keyboard ergonomic lmfao

@VuLamDang

29 күн бұрын

the OG planck layouts make no sense. I moved the shift tab row and the enter keys into the middle. Planck required you to use layer shift anyway, and to make the most out of it you have to embrace the layers. Ben Valleck have some nice videos on alternative planck layouts with layers

@concinnus

28 күн бұрын

@@VuLamDang Yeah, moving enter and others to the middle is a good and old idea, going back to the TypeMatrix, tmk the original Ortho.

@abdulkohhar4287

27 күн бұрын

​@@VuLamDangthat's not about the size, that's about how you use it

"saw this pic on Reddit" Dave is the cleanest Redditor who takes baths

@user-op8fg3ny3j

Ай бұрын

Theres a difference between a redittor and a person who uses reddit

@Jacques13able

Ай бұрын

Who are u. I see u everywhere

@aeskellion

Ай бұрын

there is a difference between a person who uses Reddit and a Redditor

@PhilipAlexanderHassialis

Ай бұрын

@@Jacques13able This. Why is @HeisenbergFam in all the videos I watch.

@TheOneWhoKnocks03

29 күн бұрын

Because we are The One Who Knocks ;)

i wouldnt call an ortho keyboard "ergonomic" because it still has your wrists bent in a way that produces ulnar deviation, along with forearm pronation due to your wrists being flat parallel to your desktop. the keys not being staggered reduces neither of these strains on your wrists, and simply provides a comfort that is very much individual based. a tented split ergo keyboard is something to look into if you want an actual ergonomic keyboard.

@VincentFree

Ай бұрын

Not if you get a split one though. That's the holy grail

@f3nneko

Ай бұрын

@@VincentFree yeah that is true, ortho split boards have good merit to them because some of them have the rows laid out in a way where all the rows are equal distance from your fingers

@yensteel

29 күн бұрын

Something like the Helix is a good example. It's split yet ortholinear. I personally like the Atreus 62 for the compactness and angled design, although it's not purely ortholinear; the columns are staggered.

@tharobiiceii

21 күн бұрын

It's not tented, but I've really enjoyed using the Levinson. Was a fun build too, if you're into the building part of the hobby at all.

@morgans4977

14 күн бұрын

Yeah... That tiny narrow thing would not do good things to me. Came looking for this comment, good run through of why this is not ortho

Finally bro has made a keyboard video after 84 years...

@KG_BM

Ай бұрын

always seemed to me that he was deep into custom mechs but avoided channel coverage because he knows its a pricey rabit hole. which doesnt entirely fit with the products he chooses to cover where price to performance is usually a factor

Switching to better keyboards is like the US switching from imperial to metric. The outcome makes sense but the process to get there is painful

@xReeQz

Ай бұрын

This applies to every change in life 😅

@CyanRooper

29 күн бұрын

"Switching to your ortho is always faster than relearning."

@OreoWaffles

29 күн бұрын

And expensive af

@a_plastic_bag

27 күн бұрын

Yeah, the process of switching to the Colemak DH layout from QWERTY was pretty difficult. You’re constantly having to fight against muscle memory until you can overwrite it with the new layout. I do want to get an ortholinear keyboard at some point though.

@SkepticalCaveman

10 күн бұрын

The US switched to metric many decades ago, but the population don't know about it.

My personal take is that apart from looks, there isn't much of an ergonomic advantage with these type of ortho keyboards. Just splitting the board alone would massively improve ergonomics. Id love to see you try something like a dactyl, or even just a corne / lily / kyria / etc

@paddymurphy-oconnor8255

Ай бұрын

I think he missed the sticker set at the bottom of the box.

@Polymath2B

29 күн бұрын

Corne would be a much easier jump from an ortho 40, especially compared to going from standard to ortho 40. 60% column stagger is where I think most people would be happiest with, though I only have a Corne.

@purplelord8531

29 күн бұрын

had me in the first half, ngl

April Fool's was 2 months ago, Dave

@Stilllife1999

Ай бұрын

What?

@brekibreki

Ай бұрын

@HuwRees my thoughts exactly

@paddymurphy-oconnor8255

Ай бұрын

I had the same thought.

@purplelord8531

29 күн бұрын

thus, we can easily conclude that this is not an april fools joke. ...(??)

@Aligatorxx3

23 күн бұрын

😂 I was literally just thinking the whole video....why? 😅

I think Dave is confusing two things here: the reason his wrists don’t feel sore isn’t because the board is ortholinear, but because it’s a small 40% board that doesn’t require you to move your wrists as much. A staggered 40% keyboard would have the exact same benefit. Ortho is mainly an aesthetical difference.

@VincentFree

Ай бұрын

Ortho also helps here since you don't have to reach as much. It's a combination. Split would be the obvious upgrade from here

Wait till he finds out about split keybs

@BinauralBae

Ай бұрын

Or ortho split keyboards

@VincentFree

Ай бұрын

⁠most splits are ortho though. If you're in the business of ergonomics then ortho is the only way I guess

@huantian

29 күн бұрын

@@BinauralBaeor columnar split keebs

No way this is ergonomic

@ConsecDesign

Ай бұрын

You are wrong

@aebisdecunter

Ай бұрын

Sure, columnar split ergo boards would be easier to type on, but this already has better ergonomics than ANSI/ISO layouts. Consider this: If you need to use arrow keys, you need to put your hand on the side and then back on the home row. If you made a mistake, you need to shift your entire right palm to reach the Backspace key. If you need to hit Esc, same thing. Pinkies have a lot of keys on them, and most of them require shifting your entire hands, while your two thumbs share only one key, so each pinky has 12-17 keys, while the thumbs have 0.5 keys. Thumbclusters are one of the best ways to improve ergonomics, if a split ergo columnar board doesn't have thumb clusters, it's not that ergo anymore.

@susseduud

Ай бұрын

@@aebisdecunter the main problem is with the linearity of the rows and the columns, though. Fingers are not equally long and perfectly next to each other. Then what key is bound where is a completely different question.

@aebisdecunter

Ай бұрын

@@susseduud Columar stagger and concave keywells certainly offer better comfort, but ortho is better than row staggered keyboards, especially bigger ones (TKL, 104 key) without layer support.

@purplelord8531

29 күн бұрын

all the ergo guys agree with you if you want to look through the comments again lol

For those of you that live near a Microcenter and wanting to try this keyboard layout, they sell an Orthlinear keyboard for $40, the Inland 47-Key Mechanical Keyboard. Great little keyboard, that has RGB and hot swappable switches.

@HCG

Ай бұрын

Siiiiiiiick

@ReclaimerTyphoon

26 күн бұрын

Dang it. I just got back from a road trip, and I'm just now seeing that the town we went to had a Microcenter... like, two blocks from where we were. Had I read this comment yesterday, I'd be testing out a new keyboard right now. And also have explored a Microcenter, which just sounds like a good time. I mean, I don't think ortholinear is very ergonomic (more than standard, but less than many other layouts/keyboards out there), but it would still be fun to have/mess around with for a bit.

Naturally there’s a divergence of keyboard users where on one side you have people who type like literally pages of pages each day over hours literally using all keys to form words, and those who mainly use keyboards with hotkeys in repetitive workflows such as CAD users or number heavy lines of work. A single style of keyboard such as orthos will eventually diverge naturally as it adapts to the style of the user. You can’t give an accountant a gamer focused keyboard, a video editor a writer’s keyboard etc it just wouldn’t work. It can even hurt the user over time.

time to learn Dvorak next Dave!

@Dave2D

Ай бұрын

I tried for a bit. It seemed way too hard lol

@darukutsu

Ай бұрын

no no no, colemak-dh is optimized for orthos

@TaehaTypes

Ай бұрын

@@darukutsu i do intend to learn colemak next after mastering dvorak! why is it better optimized for ortho?

@TaehaTypes

Ай бұрын

@@Dave2D haha same advice like your friend mentioned for switching to ortho! just gotta keep at it until you can reach your regular speed and now i enjoy typing in dvorak more as the hand alternation makes typing much more enjoyable in my opinion

@darukutsu

Ай бұрын

@@TaehaTypes I just heard/read somewhere about it, mod was created in 2015 i think they have different styles for ANSI, ISO, ORTHO... when you look into hot map, you will see something like this: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ * * * * - - * * * * - - - * - - * - - -

"Just 90WPM. No big deal."

@isaackvasager9957

Ай бұрын

90 is pretty average for someone that works with computers for a living.

@joelscb

28 күн бұрын

@@isaackvasager9957 🤓

@lalov147

11 күн бұрын

look at the software hes using, no punctiation, no capital letters, very short easy words. his 100wpm are probably more like 60

"What if I made a keyboard... But I made it a pain in the ass to use!" - average keyboard head

@brzt4256

Ай бұрын

But, crucially, not a pain in the wrists!

@bleuebloom

Ай бұрын

“What if I made a comment… but only watched like 1% of the video” - average YT commenter

@avonire

Ай бұрын

Just needing the layer shift to access certain keys would drive me crazy. Imagine typing a report with numbers and needing to switch constantly

@SaveMeAzathoth

29 күн бұрын

⁠​⁠@@avonireLayers literally make numbers easier to type than on keyboards with separate number keys. Instead of reaching two rows up, I hold a thumb key and have the numbers on the home row where my fingers already are.

@Polymath2B

29 күн бұрын

@@avonireGuess you never type CAPITALS or symbols. It’s much faster typing EvEN in WEIrd mIXes oF CApS because it’s very practical, compared to reaching up to f-keys, numpad, etc. Compare this with fiddling with far away keys.

I love that you tried ortho! I'm an ortho user myself. I would say, however, that it's *not* inherently more *ergonomic*. The real benefits are, as I see them: - Muscle memory. Columns are in proper columns instead of shifty diagonals, making it simpler to know exactly which key you are reaching for. - Size. That Planck you have demonstrates this pretty well. - The ability to map a numpad or other grid-oriented layouts to a function key and not have the stagger make it weird. Oh also, I think people who touch type (use their pinkies and adhere to the proper columns) will have an easier time with the transition. That's just my anecdotal observation. As for why you're feeling less strain when using ortho, are you perhaps touch typing now? I wonder if touch typing is inherently easier on the wrists.

@bocahdongo7769

Ай бұрын

I have custom designed 86 row ortho No more dealing with pesky layering unless I need to access mouse mode

@sklynexd

Ай бұрын

You don't even know where to put your fingers lmfao, it doesn't have any letters.

@bocahdongo7769

Ай бұрын

@@sklynexd you type while watching the keycaps? That's kinda sad.

@relaxtoe

Ай бұрын

@@sklynexd It has indentations on F and J, you just feel for them.

@j1000a

Ай бұрын

@@sklynexd that's just the aesthetic choice Dave made; doesn't really have anything to do with ortho.

Dave2D, This is fantastic! I subscribed right away!

Your journey with the Ortho keyboard was really captivating. Making the shift from the traditional to a completely new layout, chipping away at years of muscle memory. Testament to the strength of human adaptability.

I could never type with a legend less keyboard lol

@darukutsu

Ай бұрын

touch typing, around 1h for 21days and you'll be on the same speed

@don_juant

Ай бұрын

cause they don't teach it in school anymore

@isaackvasager9957

Ай бұрын

​@don_juant yes, they do.

@fajarkurniawan9434

Ай бұрын

​@@isaackvasager9957 it depends on the country

@isaackvasager9957

Ай бұрын

@@fajarkurniawan9434 america is the only country that matters.

You should try the Glove80 :)

So happy that a mainstream tech KZreadr is talking about orthopedic boards. I’ve been using boards like these for 5 or so years and have moved into more strange looking split boards in the later years and I really believe they don’t get enough love. More talk about these will hopefully help with the prices so I can convince more friends to get into these. Aiming for a future where one day all laptops have ortholinear layouts as well 👍🏼

Every single video of you makes me remember how good you are. The editing, the photography, the shooting, the script even the B-roll.

It would drive me insane typing on something like this lol. Changing muscle memory of over 20+ years of typing is too much work for me at this point.

@bocahdongo7769

Ай бұрын

Depend of the original finger movement Ortho really punish you really hard if you already have bad finger movement that you grew accustomed

@rhoharane

Ай бұрын

It's a good way to make sure other people don't use your computer though. That and use the Logitech MX Ergo as your mouse.

@nobody-bt7mu

29 күн бұрын

I promise you it's not that hard!

Can't wait for the 20% keyboards to come out next year!

@fred_derf

29 күн бұрын

We had 'em 40+ years ago, see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard

@purplelord8531

29 күн бұрын

that's just stenography it's so powerful it's the only method of typing that can keep up with human speech - that's why they use it in courts

@derkaiser9881

21 күн бұрын

I've used a 35% as a daily board for quite a while now. I'm not interested in getting rid of a whole row yet, but I couldn't see it being that hard.

I've been curious for so long about these "Doys" keycaps. I couldn't find anything online about them; barely a photo of them on keyboards. Thank you for making a video on them. Clears up so much confusion!

what a delight to see a new video coming from Dave2D

So happy to see some 40s love, but I got news for you, there's no stopping now. See you at 30% split col stag!

@derkaiser9881

21 күн бұрын

30% GANG

just waiting to come up with 40% split columns staggered keyboard like Corne xD

@mmanuelz

Ай бұрын

Was looking for this XD I have my Kyria and looking now for a sweep wireless corne

Great report on your experience learning the ortholinear layout. I did the same journey myself, with the much larger Moonlander columnar split keyboard. I also have a Planck, but I think it's too small for my hands. I prefer to have them spread across the table a bit more. That being said, I was already a good typist, using all my fingers mostly correctly. I knew it would be painful, and I knew it would require massive commitment, but I am also very anxious and impatient. I trained for a full weekend, more than 24 hours straight. And I was able to increase from the low 20s to around 80 wpm, which is already a very usable speed. Than I continued to train using websites like Monkeytype for the next few days until reaching my upper 90s again. It does take a while, you really have to commit, but it is doable. I was 44 years old when I did the jump, and I was successful. Since then I moved to smaller layouts like the Corne keyboard. Nowadays I am using the ZSA Voyager variant. It's almost perfect for me.

The reason keyboard keys aren't in neat columns is because that's ergonomic. So the keyboard that is all lined up perfectly is less ergonomic.

I hate small keyboards. Those are way too small.

Funny, I bought the Voyager last week and can confirm that it's super HARD to re-learn everything after decades of typing!

@ferdinandmaximilian_I.

Ай бұрын

Me too 🤝 I also committed to learn a new keyboard layout (Engram) straight away. I'm at 15 wpm and it's very painful 😅 But I'm 100% convinced it's going to be a game changer in the long run.

@minues

Ай бұрын

@@ferdinandmaximilian_I.I am one month into engram too with my Dygma Defy 😅 I was 80wpm and now I am still at 40 😂

I love it when you listen to your friends advice and find out the reason and improved upon it, you were not feisty to post the bad review but you find find out whats wrong with you, love it, love your reviews, keep going 😊

ive been watching your videos dating back 5 YEARS! i really like your videos, they're clean(no insane effects like mrwhosetheboss), and not sooo scripted(like linustechtips). You are literally the best tech youtuber...you inspired me. Please dont start with the scary face thumbnails(mrwhosetheboss) :)

If you're going to go crazy on unconventional keyboards, why not go Dvorak or Colemak?

It almost doesn't look like a keyboard

Thanks Dave. Welcome to the ortho club. Been using ortho for years. In time switching from one to another gets easier. I’m trying to learn steno from a ortho too, just allow chording and bind a different layer.

Dave, gotta say man, love your videos! they're appealing to me even when I'm not considering shopping for the product. Respect your opinions because they're very logical and scientific. You didn't just take a dump on this stupid keyboard immediately like most would have done but really took a deep dive into the true nature and intended purpose of the product. I like any youtuber who really understands their audience and role and you're one of the best man. Keep the videos coming!

"You must unlearn what you have learned" Yoda Not gonna happen for me, been typing 40 plus years on the old style and I'm fine with it.

I still wonder why Dave went through a long, messy hair phase and then came right back to where he started!

@gizConAsh

Ай бұрын

probably just craving some change. i do it too from time to time. unfortunately, I no longer can grow my hair as long as him.

@mauree1618

Ай бұрын

everyone I've ever known to have long hair get its cut short eventually.

@relaxtoe

Ай бұрын

Summer

@sp-vt4je

Ай бұрын

Dyed them too. His white hairs all of a sudden disappeared..

@derkaiser9881

21 күн бұрын

​@@mauree1618 After that it's so hard to go back to longer hair, too.

I type normally around 110-115 with 1 to 3 max mistakes, but after seeing this video, it now makes sense about the even column / even row set up.. Definitely going to try ASAP. Thanks Dave!

There are much more ergonomic keyboards such as the corne (also 42 keys) these keyboards adds a couple of changes to the planck: - Each of the rows for the fingers is staggered to consider the different lengths of each finger - The keyboard is split so that you can place the halves further apart to avoid being cramped - The thumb keys curve outwards

@Polymath2B

29 күн бұрын

Yep, the corne is wonderful.

This is not an ergonomic keyboard. This is just a bad keyboard that looks unique.

@TheCreator919

Ай бұрын

fr fr

@Polymath2B

29 күн бұрын

Eh, probably not worse than a full size/standard layout. Luckily, not nearly as much of a jump to get used to a split column stagger proper ergo board.

No views in 16 seconds? My bro fell hard 😢

@CallMeMasterBabo

Ай бұрын

1 minute, still below 1k view. sad

Glad you found this. I've been using he ZSA Voyager, struggled to learn it for about 2 months, and now I would hate to go back to staggered layouts.

Excellent vid, thanks. Please do more on ortholinear keyboards - there are so many new and innnovative variations now, like the Moonlander by ZSA, and the super cool Charachord as well as the Dygma Lab keyboards (which include ortholinear options).

Thanks so much dave for making this video. Ive been enjoying ortholinear but theres not many options. Cheers🎉

Dave, I hope you don’t feel like all the people recommending split keyboards are trying to discredit you. Moving from row stagger to ortholinear is a step toward the world of ergo keyboards that shouldn’t be ignored! I think this is a good keyboard video to make. However, everyone including me is commenting about this to help you continue on this path toward ergonomics and minimal finger movements, and definitely the next step is to try out split, columnar keyboards. Hope I’ll be seeing a follow up soon :) PS there’s a lot of more affordable options out there! Glad you’re bringing this to the mainstream as well

great vid Dave!

The number pad comparison really sold it to me. I think I wanna try learning that keyboard now.

the passion in this video, nice

Finally ortholinear layouts made it into mainstream! Been using ZSA PlanckEZ (has per key RGB, and great web interface to customise your layout) for years now - loved it right away, as I’ve always been an absolute hater of staggered layouts. It hit me when I was learning to blind type, and trying to make myself not use left thumb to press C - I looked into why why have 3 keys per finger to use, but they are all staggered to the left. Hope much more of this makes into mainstream, and big brands start to offer ortholinear choice at least. Can’t wait for the next video on split, columnar (ortholinear, but keys are staggered vertically for finger length) - that’s when true ergonomics starts! Ben Wallack on youtube made a great series of videos about typing ergonomics, he dives deep into QMK, starting from PlanckEZ, and Moonlander, ending designing and assembling his own split ergo keyboard d.

Never really thought about switching, but this made me think about it! When I have some spare money, I may really try it.

This video came at a good time! I just started using an Iris Rev 8 which is an ortholinear ergo split keyboard and it's currently hell to type on but hoping in the near future my WPM is back to normal.

Saw the thumbnail for this and literally said "yum" out load. Didn't know I was fiending for Dave2D content like that!

I have never been a fan of small keyboard and always thought that sacrificing keys just for aesthetics was a little dumb, but this video kind of convinced me that there are practical benefits to a smaller keyboard.

Product review and a history lesson. Nice.

Dave, I got a blank ortho split keyboard last week (a Sofle), and managed to get to 95 wpm on QWERTY layout now. It does take time to get back up to speed (although there's still speedbumps when typing keys in other layers), and I'm currently experimenting with Colemak DH layout. you should definitely try split keyboards, i'm now currently intrigued with keyboards with keyballs (attached trackballs), or even scroll encoders.

I got an Ortho keyboard (the Planck EZ - since discontinued), a couple years ago. The transition was instant, no pain in trying to switch over from the staggered layout for me. So YMMV.

I’m using ZSA Moonlander keyboard and totally love it. Split, columnar staggered layout.

Kinesis Advantage 2 has literally changed my life, highly recommend for those with early onset conditions - took me about a month to fully acclimate but it was worth it and my pain is completely gone. That being said I really cannot imagine this brick in the video being much of a comfort upgrade than a standard keyboard, seeing his hand position is painful.

@ReclaimerTyphoon

26 күн бұрын

Columnar-aligned keys reduces "reaching", which decreases fatigue some amount, but, yeah, split keyboards reduce ulnar deviation, which is a much bigger problem. Add tenting to reduce wrist pronation, and wrist rests to ensure your wrists are straight, to reduce wrist extension, and boom - pretty much a perfect typing experience. Some optimizations can be had, at that point, with a Dactyl layout, then a Manform structure, and then lighter key switches with shorter throw. *Then* it would be ultimate. ... I need to fix my 3D printer and get back on the project that I bought the thing for: making the keyboard i just described.

Lit video, thanks for bringing more attention to this undervalued insight! It's way too easy to just accept the status quo than too shake up core beliefs like how a keyboard should look. Also would highly recommend trying split ortholinear for example the ZSA Voyager, its just on a whole new level. For me personally it took away 10+ years of shoulder and neck pain.

Imagine you've learned to use this layout, but you still have to use the regular keyboard on you laptop or some other device, switching between the two. That sounds like fun.

I never thought I'd see the day that Dave finally gets into proper smol keyboards. Catch you guys in 3 years when he makes a QAZ video at long last.

I swear the timing on this video was crazy. Either that day or the day before it dropped, I found myself wishing keyboards had not evolved from type writers, rather on their own, and that if they had they probably would have been in a grid layout. I grew up with and type fast on old keyboards, but they have never satisfied my OCD desire to have my tech tools in order & sleek. More to the point, old keyboards do not serve well for replacement keys when hacking in advanced keyboard combos depending on which applications I am using, and having a grid system would fit more varied use cases. Then instantly I see this video and am introduced to such a keyboard. Thank you Dave for presenting my manifestation. EDIT: WHOA! Dave said exactly what I said in the last 2 minutes of the video, I should have finished the video before leaving the comment 🤓

We need a matching keyboard with a negative of those keycaps so we can build structures with them like legos

Would be great if you can share keyboards like Kinesis Advantage (ormore recent keyboards inspired from that line) with the wider community. They're really helpful and address most of the common ergonomics issues typists / computer users face.

I use an Ortho layout (in fact I'm typing this on one I designed myself in KiCAD) and I'll honestly say that the time commitment wasn't as crazy as I expected when I picked up my first Planck kit. After about a week I had my accuracy back, and after about two weeks, I had my speed back to go with it. While I do still type on staggered keyboards (mostly laptops, at work), I can't imagine going back to one full time. The lack of hand fatigue from long typing sessions on this is worth the price of time you pay to get comfortable with it.

The customs that are build into our tech don't normally change for mild benefits but only for drastically new innovations

You had us in the first half of the video. Nice video.

I miss Dave's mad scientist hair phase

Been a keyboard enthusiast for a long time now, and I think this video made me want to try the push to ortholinear

Me hearing the phrase, “I don’t type with my pinkies,” and trying to recover from the spinning beach ball of death. As a touch typist who learned to type with a task mistress repeating the sequence “A D S F J K L ;” this broke me in a way I didn’t even know I was vulnerable. This is like the single space after a period trauma all over again. (How do you type, “a”!?!) But now I really want to try that keyboard. So, well done.

Kinesis Advantage 360 is the only/last keyboard you ever need. Seriously, the concave key wells are LIFE-CHANGING!!

Definitely give the ZSA Voyager a shot! Columnar layout with thumb clusters and split layout. As a software engineer, this keyboard removed my RSI and is the most ergonomic keyboard I've used so far.

A split (2 parts + a numpad if needed) Ortho layout + Hall effect Switches + either a display on each key that changes with the layers or a app that visually shows the layers on screen is my dream.

Welcome to the keeb master race. It’s a massive rabbit hole. It gets so much better than this but good start

i love ortho layout! i really want there to be more out there. Its an even better layout when its in a split formfactor! I do think you struggled to get used to it because you don't type "properly" not using your pinkys to type for 30 years of typing experience would lead me to believe ortho style would be very difficult! Nice video, cheers!

When you said, "if keyboards were invented today...", my mind went straight to the CharaChorder One

ortholinear keyboards are less ergonomic. They force you to pull your elbows closer your body for your fingers to line up with their linear layout, opposed to the more natural angled layout your fingers line up with when your elbows are in a more natural resting position. ortholinear keyboards look neat, but are not comfortable. if you still want to try a ortholinear keyboard, I'd suggest the Creator Board by Work Louder, it's the most impressive one I've tested to date.

@enkvadrat_

Ай бұрын

no the most ergonomic is a split ortholinear keyboard that is curved and tented

@garolstipock

29 күн бұрын

As Dave discovered and stated, your hands, wrists, don't move much if you do it right, it's just your fingers that dance a little bit, and then, not much either. Even less if you go with Colemack DHm or other than QWERTY where you dance the most. And if you do not have the keyboard pulled up close to your belly, your wrists stay in a relatively comfortable enough position and again, just don't move until you reach for your coffee. Unless you are already dealing with RSI issues, the bend your wrists make with this is not any deal at all to overhype. Been using mine for 3 years without even a peep. No trouble at all. Tis a Planck, not organically shaped or especially a posterchild of ergonomics, but small enough to not be an issue.

@earthling_parth

11 күн бұрын

Small keyboards so that. Split keyboards in any size solve that problem.

There's a nerve in our body that starts in the brain, goes down our neck and comes back up to our mouth, because we used to be fish once. (It is same for giraffes with their long ass necks)

This is where those long skinny alien fingers evolve from. Thanks dave!

You should give the Dygma Defy a run for its money. I have been using that for a month now, and I’m never going back to a traditional keyboard. The defy is soooo comfortable once you get used to it. Especially with tenting.

Can't wait till you find out about columnar staggered split boards like the ZSA Voyager. They are HEAVEN.

As someone who still has trouble using keyboards (except my phone keyboard) I can say this grid layout makes a lot lot more sense than the usual typewriter keyboards, I hate how I have to tilt my macbook so I can write on the staggered layout where one wrist is rotated in the abnormal direction and even then I have to look at the keys I type and still make mistakes Appul is one of the most influential keyboard makers (due to their mac) and they have the power to change to the better, more sane keyboard layout

Info for you: I bought a Vortex Core Keyboard a long time ago which is 40%. It took me about a week to get to grips with it and since then I've been using it every day and I love it. So it's worth spending some time on such small keyboards at the beginning.

@garolstipock

29 күн бұрын

I still have a couple of those in the stash. MX Clears and clicky blues. ole skool style.

the punch to the screen when playing is so relatable mostly if it's due to a bad keyboard lol

the cutaway depictions of rage are *chef's kiss* Dave. thank you

Corne with chocs, split, ortho, ergo, blank keys. Way smaller and more portable, 32 layers, can be tented and moved apart for way more ergo comfort. You are heavily pronated on a 1 piece keyboard, splitting it solves this and lets you angle the halves to whatever works for you or even tent if you want to.

Yay! Dave! The only person I will watch a keyboard video...because he is so good!

havent finished the video but looks like the evolution of a minimal typewriter design

Thanks for for sharing it ✌️

"I love the way that you look, the way that you type, I love the way that you sound"

Beautiful keyboard. I want to try 40% someday