“Kethric is everything a villain should be, scary, calm, cool, and collected…“ and voiced by JK Simmons😂

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

OMG yeah JK Simmons KILLED it in this role.

I think his hate for the relationship also comes from seeing his wife and his daughter and knowing what it’s like to be with somebody who has much shorter lifespan

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

Oh that's so true!

@rctecopyright

17 күн бұрын

Yurp

The way I always saw his disapproval of Isobel and Aylin’s relationship was that he felt empathy towards Aylin and wanted to save her the pain of Isobel dying and leaving her behind in her grief,like Melodia had.

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

That's a fair point! I hadn't considered that.

I love Orin because she is such an extra, dramatic Mean Girl. Ketheric has the best story. Gortash, inexplicably, gets so many fangirls.

@zacharybosley1935

17 күн бұрын

inexplicably?

@betweenthelakescinema7027

12 күн бұрын

Orin has zero character depth at all and I’m convinced only has fans because she’s hot and chews the scenary. At least with Gortash, we get some minor insight as to why he became so tyrannical when we meet his parents.

@zacharybosley1935

12 күн бұрын

@@betweenthelakescinema7027 Orin has a lot going on, especially if you've taken the time to interrogate Sarevok and her dead mother

With how open ended it is, the running theory is that Shar had a Dark Justiciar assassinate Isobel. If you speak with Squire (the undead dog) in Kethoric's chambers, you learn that Squire was with Isobel and they both died at the same time. They were out either playing, or just relaxing about and suddenly, darkness, they had died. As they laid dying, everything turning dark, they heard the wails that Isobel was dead as well and then the next thing Squire remembers is the light returning (being revive) and being before their master again. Squire laments not being able to protect Isobel but doesn't even know how they both were killed. Considering Shar shows up to Kethoric almost immediately after this and Shar has a very nasty habit of fucking with Selune's best of her worshippers, being able to convert Moonrise towers from a Selunite settlement to a Sharran stronghold would definitely be something on brand for Shar.

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

OMG I had completely missed this! That's actually a really plausible and depressing theory! And a reminder to speak with animals more often.

@alexwang3282

17 күн бұрын

in the original version, isobel's death was in fact Balthazar's work.

The avatar stating I killed Ketheric after I offered him redemption was… kinda hilarious

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

I know it's just the same cut scene, and technically we talked Kethric into the state of mind he was in when decided to off himself. So like I GET why they didn't record a different set of lines to trigger. But also, wym??? I didn't do anything asdfasdfsd

@bunnybutt5664

17 күн бұрын

​@PocketLeaves I always try to imagine it like he meant spiritually we killed him. Like, after bringing up his wife Melodia and offering him a chance to redeem himself, we technically killed the spirit he had to go through with the plan. We broke him by reminding him of what he lost, so... he willingly kills himself to turn into the avatar of Myrkul. In hopes of seeing his wife again. At least, that is how I remembered and interpreted how it went in my playthrough.

@bunnybutt5664

17 күн бұрын

​@PocketLeaves I interpret as if by offering him a chance of redemption by reminding him of Melodia and what she would think of what he's doing, and him losing Isobel with how tightly he clung on to her... In my playthrough, I once again offered him a chance at Mercy to see Melodia again. To stop his madness. If I remember right, he does feel guilt, and he ultimately kills himself, turning into the avatar of Myrkul. We might not have physically killed him, but by breaking him like that we did in a way kill his spirit to continue to go through this mad plan, after he realizes what he had lost for than what he would gain.

Kethric Thorm". A classic story of a man whose grief took over to the point he is left as nothing more than a shadow of his former self. Great character!

I was randomly mulling the Chosen of the Dead Three over a few days ago, when all of a sudden a plot thread I’d never recognized hit me full in the face. Gortash was sold to Raphael as a child, and Raphael himself tells us he spent thousands of years plotting in secret to get his hands on the Crown of Karsus from the vaults of Mephistopheles. Then Gortash goes on to escape. I was wondering how on earth any of the Chosen would’ve have known about the Crown to begin with… until I realized Gortash probably learned about it due to being a prisoner of Raphael, whom we know had a laser-like focus on getting the crown for himself. So, in theory, if Raphael had just utilized a more effective security system, the entire plot of the game in stopping the Netherbrain, the Chosen, and the cult of the Absolute never would’ve happened if Gortash hadn’t gotten away from the House of Hope with exact knowledge of where the Crown was and what it could do.

@gwenpool6748

17 күн бұрын

I *love* this take!!

I loved being surprised by JK Simmons’ voice acting for Kethric!

I find it interesting that Sorrow is implied to belong to Ketheric Thorm, I assume that he had it during his Shar era? ‘For every drop of blood spilled, a piece of the soul perishes - until nothing remains but regret.’ I feel he regrets everything like you said

Take away a man's most cherished treasures, and you will witness the birth of a monster.

gosh now i want to read ketheric fanfics. like... being a proud father at his daughter's wedding.... being an awkward father in law - daughter in law duo with aylin.... happy ketheric.

Jokes about Ketheric wanted pictures of Spider-Man aside. Ketheric really is a tragic character and he does raise an excellent point about Faerune gods. Do they even give a damn about their followers? I mean. We all saw how Mystra treated Gale.

Missing the birth of my first child because pocket leaves dropped more peak

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

OMG????? Congrats on the child (if that's not just entirely a joke)

A wonderful video! I do so love your character analysis videos. And that cat is too cute for words!

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

The cat is just a little baby, and I love him so much!

i fucking love your breakdown videos. i’m someone that likes to vibe to my own music while playing video games and i also tend to have way too long of session when i play so digesting all the background while i was playing was super hard and a lot of it went over my head because i was so dead set on exploring everything. these videos help me understand the game so much more and helps me know what to look for in my other play through to see the context of the side quests

I did not like Kethric as a sympathetic antagonist. He really seemed to only value Isobel as a thing he has and not as her own person with her own wants and feelings. He doesn't seem to care that his own daughter despises him or that he kidnapped her lover, especially when he tadpols her. He just seems to want her as a thing and not as a person and that isn't love. I don't know if I am just misunderstanding something, but he just seemed more abusive than sympathetic to me.

@fushiforever

17 күн бұрын

I like him as a villain but I agree. He already had certain qualities that weren't great and they just get ramped up once Isobel dies. He comes across as controlling when she was alive and loses it totally during the events of the game.

@The_Government

17 күн бұрын

@@fushiforever Don't get me wrong. As a simple antagonist, he is ok. He is powerful and scary. It is just when the game tries to portray him as a loving father that I think it falls flat on its face.

@fushiforever

17 күн бұрын

@@The_Government Is it the game or the fandom though? Because if you talk to him, he understands pretty well that he's done terrible things just to have Isobel back, things that would make him unrecognizable to his wife. I feel like it's other people who make excuses for him as he, Isobel, and Aylin don't. Like... sometimes I feel people forget every horrible thing going on in Act II can be traced back to him...

@The_Government

17 күн бұрын

@@fushiforever That actually my biggest problem with Kethric. When you talk to him he is regretful about working for Shar and Myrkul but you cannot ask him about what he did to Isobel at all or call him out for how he treated her. Almost like the game doesn't think that he did anything bad to Isobel.

Im gonna give my 2 cents oj the reason i think Ketheric hates the relationship with Aylin. I think its kinda straightforward. He feels Selune abandoned him, and Isobel stayed true to Selune, so much that she fell for a divine being of Selune. Her love for Aylin just reminds Ketheric of his past failed relationship with his godess. And the betrayal that he holds her responsible for, for not saving his wife.

Ooh, Ketheric Thorm! Might Gortash might be coming soon?

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

Gortash is actually the next Baldur's Gate video! (coming in a couple of weeks or so)

Loved the video!! I finished act 2 not so long ago and this is the first Ketheric video I see, it really made me appreciate him more:D Can’t wait for the Gort video, I love-hate that bastard

There is a hint on Halsin killing Isobel after completing Rescue the Druid and getting the pole arm “Sorrow”. I agree that Ketheric is one of the more interesting villains because we have the whole act for him and layers to uncover throughout Act 2. Thank you for this!

I wish he wore the helmet during the bossfight, the concept art is so good. Like, we see his humanity or half-elfishnes I guess slip away through the stages of the fight as he desperately devotes himself more and more to Myrkul in an attempt to persevere. Phase 1: No helmet, living followers and a dog on top of the tower, he's still a general. Phase 2: A legion of skeletons and a mindflayer, the front of the absolute has fallen, and we see what controls him, there is no need for him to project personhood anymore (he's also arguably the most sensible of the chosen considering he wears armour, so putting on a helmet when it's all or nothing makes sense to me). Phase 3: He gets consumed by Myrkul and dissapears entirely, completing his vanishing act.

I find it neat that Kethric, like, chose Myrkul consciously, making his worshipping more mature in some way? I think it distinguishes him from other Chosens, especially Orin, whose whole life was dedicated to Bhaal

Thank god for this video was spiriling over my ex now i can think about something else🙏 love this series

I haven’t watched this yet but I’m just commenting to say Ketheric is my pookiebearbabygirlpoobearpeepaw love that man 😊

@vulgarcute

16 күн бұрын

Okay now that I’ve listened and gotten to a point in my mail route where I can take my break and leave a comment I have to say this video is really well put together and I agree with most takes. [ SPOILERS ] I still remember the first time I looted his corpse and found the letter Isobel wrote him when she was a child that he kept on his person and it made me just sit back and realize that above all else Ketheric is a man who though his heart no longer beats almost sort of thrives in his aches. He is a father who has lost everything but that pain seems to be such an amazing motivator to try and pull things back together - but no matter what he does like a broken glass even if he did get everything he wanted the cracks would always remain and he would never be able to get what he truly wanted. And that makes me SOOOOOOOOOOO…. Love him

Another great deep dive. I listened to this while raiding the first floor of Moonrise lol

Ah. Ketheric Thorm. The best of the three chosen IMHO, and among the best of the 'main villains.' He has it all for a villain, that I think embodies dnd. (well, Raphael too, but that's for a different time). To put it in my key 3 things in an internal grading of the bg3 antagonists, there's Presence, aka story bits/how involved they feel with the plot. Presentation - what we see in game, aka cutscenes. (how presence is reached some of the time) and spectacle - gameplay. (Of course there might be a better way to divest the 3 from potential overlaps lol) . Presence (all of act 2 is basically about him and his family.) Presentation. ("Try. Again.") and Spectacle. (his fight is multi-stage and has the whole avatar of Myrkul thing.) more on presence- you learn about him, his family, and how he became a broken man. How he felt betrayed by the gods, and betrayed again. How he would do anything for his daughter, much like you talked about. His presentation of how he's shown to us... making it well known that he can't be taken down. As well as apparently, if you try attacking him before the cutscene he just literally brushes it off before telling zrell to kill you for attacking him. Then of course, there's the Spectacle of how cool the whole fight is with him. This also plays into presentation a bit too with the Myrkul cutscene, but definitely goes into 'spectacle' gameplay because of the multi-stage fight. I think it's even implied that it's Ketheric in control in the Myrkull fight or is being puppeteered even after that? As The avatar when he's calling for the necromites to come to him, uses ketheric's voice, not Myrkul's. (other chosen/brain discussed below in comparison) Gortash falls flat though. I'm sure he's better on an origin Karlach playthrough, he didn't feel 'there' enough for me. And didn't have any 'great' scenes. (which as a villain could very well be the point for Gortash at times, but.... supposed to think this nerd as equals with KETHERIC?). Storming his fortress also felt more tedium than fun. but the next video is apparently planned to be Gort, so we'll see if that changes things... Orin... has some presence in act 3 with what she does (shapeshifting as people you meet, could have done it a little bit more maybe to keep us on our toes?) . but is better in 'presentation' and 'spectacle' - especially on a durge compared to tav. The slayer scene and fight are great. For a durge, she's even better since she's the whole reason for your amnesia essentially, from what I remember, being that she's the one that cut you up. (and even see durge in her room too on a non-durge run apparently) I dunno what the duel is like if you have the slayer form as my durge runs were 'redeemed' and 'long-con evil' so I did not have the slayer form for either fight, but the duel makes her in a durge playthrough a second best. the brain....? only 'good part' of it from first impressions is the spectacle. The increasingly harder and harder dcs to try to dominate it, ending with the dc99... The whole 'call in everyone' / everyone is here / avengers assemble, or whatever flavor of such you want to go with, was great! The climb? GREAT Presence... felt still 'controlled' until the end (which I missed the 'all according to plan' monologue apparently, or thought it was a bluff. IDR.) and presentation? didn't do much really in that regard. By the time you interact with it or see much of it... it's basically time to fight it. In short, the best part of the primary villains/always antagonists is Ketheric. and he's gone in the same act he's introduced. While the rest of them get time to do.... not as much as he did.

love this series

Honestly I don't think I can see Ketheric disapproving of Isobel and Aylin's relationship for homophobic reasons (the joke is very funny, but I can't see it as an actual genuine read) just because like. I don't get the sense that homophobia is as common in the world of the game as it is in our world? Considering how casually queer relationships are mentioned among NPCs and among your party, it just has never felt like people in that world have a concept of homophobia.

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

bg3 is a very queer normative world, or at least it feels like it to the player (especially considering everyone just KNOWS your pronouns even if it may not be "obvious" like with nonbinary or gender nonconforming Tavs)

Funny how this was posted just as reached him in Moonrise with my current playthrough XD I wish he was in the game more… he’s a very interesting villain. In my first playthrough I only saw him in the throne room introduction then the 2 part boss battle. Never really got to interact with him and that was kinda disappointing. We’ll see how it goes with my current game!

I think Ketheric is utterly irredeamable. Even the oubliette seems to have more corpses than the temple of bhaal itself. The amount of sheer damage he has caused not only in an individual but a sort of global level is inmesuarable, he destroyed an entire region with the Shadowcurse out petiness. The fate Isobel suffers if Marcus captures her renders any possibility of love he ever had for her completely null, I don't believe he loves her. I believe he's a narcissistic parent who wishes to control her and a pathetic, weak little man who can't grasp the idea of letting her daughter be her own individual instead of a property of sorts. I think people place too much importance in "aww but he loves her :(." I think it's a farce.

@PocketLeaves

15 күн бұрын

That's so fair! Sometimes when doing character analysis, I get so caught up in the head of the character. But I do think he loves Isobel in whatever way he knows how. Just not the way most of us would love a child. But the aspects that may make him sympathetic do not take away from the harm he's caused.

Will we get a little Durge in the Gortash video perhaps???

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

Where necessary! I did a DurgeTash video back in January that covers more of the both of them together, but it is with a shipping lens. Durge will be getting their own video after patch 7 comes out!

@DigiThorn

17 күн бұрын

@@PocketLeavesI know 😂 Keep up the good work though 👍

That's I was thinking like holy crap how am I supposed kill someone who is unkillable 😅😅

I wish there was a way to have isobel on the arena when you convince him to surrender and Dame provokes him back into the fight. Im not going to lie. It pissed me off my first playthrough.

I was more disturbed by his obsession with Isobel. There are ... hints he was incestuous towards her. Also, apparently he had a son? That dude in the Waning Moon bar? I find the fact that he was so Isobel obsessed super problematic, and he ignored his son. It was disturbing and disgusting. He was a crappy father to his son, and I maintain to this day he did awful things to his own daughter, and didn't like that she turned out to want someone ELSE'S love. I can't blame her. Gross.

@PocketLeaves

17 күн бұрын

I don't think that was actually his son. And the letter from Melodia only mentions Isobel as well. We know that after Kethric was resurrected, the Thorm family mausoleum was pretty much desecrated, and many more of his relatives and ancestors were brought back in some capacity, so I've seen some say that the guy in Waning Moon referred to Kethric as a father, not in the sense that he's literally his father, but the person who gave him new life? The details are just really murky to me, so it could go either way. But I hadn't picked up on incest? Do you remember where those hints were?

Honestly my one issue with Ketheric's story is the way the three Reithwin mini-bosses (the surgeon, the toll collector, the bartender) are clumsily grafted on to it. The mini-bosses already feel pretty out of place in BG3, being one dimensional gimmick villains in a game where even fantastical characters will still have grounded and realistic motivations.It seems pretty clear to me that the mini-bosses were originally developed for a different game entirely, and repurposed for BG3 to fill out Act 2 with more cool encounters. But why on earth did Larian feel the need to make those three _related_ to Ketheric? It's really bizarre to have a villain so thoroughly defined by the loss of his family have three still-living (or unliving) relatives running around, relatives who were important enough to him that he gave them positions of authority in the town he governed, and yet he just. Never talks about them. Ever. And neither does Isobel. And the mini-bosses barely talk about him, and _never_ talk about Isobel or how they felt about her death and resurrection. Even very basic stuff, like _how_ they're related to Ketheric, isn't super clear. It seems pretty clear to me that the mini-bosses were originally developed for a different game entirely, and repurposed for BG3 to fill out Act 2 with more cool encounters. If their backstories were "corrupt officials Ketheric allowed to come to power after turning to Shar," I'd have no problem with that. Having them be part of Ketheric's family just confuses an otherwise very elegant and well-told villain backstory.

@PocketLeaves

16 күн бұрын

I've heard some speculate that the Thorms we find around town were ancestors who were risen from the grave, because we know the family mausoleum was pretty much desecrated, but either way, I wish it were more clear who these people were.

11:34 New lore drop; PocketLeaves has siblings. 18:432 You convinced me he is sympathetic. 19:30 Ah, but what is your NEXT video?

@PocketLeaves

16 күн бұрын

the actual next video may be a dungeon meshi character ranking with Null! (we still got to record it asdfasdf)

@Mailed-Knight

16 күн бұрын

@@PocketLeaves Nice.

It hadn't occurred to me before, but if Ketheric was dead a hundred years before being raised by Myrkul, what about his siblings? Thisobald, Gerringothe and Malus, are all still in Reithwin, have none of them developed further, how have they survived all this time. I know that they grotesquely changed, but how and by whom.

@PocketLeaves

16 күн бұрын

I think they've basically been dead inside, warped and stuck in whatever moment they were in when they were overtaken by the shadow curse or whatever it is that made them they way that they are.

Yesss 🎉🎉🎉

Gortash is so much better than Ketheric as a villain even though he is so underdeveloped. Orin rewlly has 0 depth to her, both as she turned out and potentially but they really fumbled gortash, he could have been so much more. And even in his cadtrated form, he is the greatest character of the 3.

FORGET THE SPOILERS. FORGET THE PLANS FOR TODAY. CLEAR THE SCHEDULE, NEW POCKET LEAVES VIDEO IS UP!! 😁

Small heads up that it should be "Ketheric".

algorithm gang