Hey everyone, would mean a great deal if you took a minute to click and watch my newest video, "Merfolkless Merfolk | A $50 Budget Pioneer Mono Blue Tempo Deck" here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/aoaXwZmaptCbkc4.html

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

Shivam's comment seems to have disappeared. Did he delete it? Was it removed? Am i just not finding it?

@bcbaprep

Жыл бұрын

@@lolimmunelol

About to sit down and sleeve up a Commander deck, need something to put on in the background, and this pops up on Discord. Perfect.

@robertschneider779

4 жыл бұрын

When did this guy make a KZread channel?

@GrandpasMagic

4 жыл бұрын

@@robertschneider779 this guy has a youtube channel??

@Izuyoi7215

4 жыл бұрын

U have a stream?

@chaoticjexak

4 жыл бұрын

is it steamed crabmander by any chance?

@WeirdSchizo

4 жыл бұрын

I was about to do the same with my newly acquired Locust God deck 👌

I keep it casual in commander by not wearing pants during the game

@thestormtrooperwhocanaim496

4 жыл бұрын

Classic strat. Might make people uncomfortable, but *you* are feeling very comfortable. That is when you can play the best/most creative.

@0megamanX

4 жыл бұрын

Damnit! There goes my Hurloon Wrangler strat.

@milohobo9186

4 жыл бұрын

Denimwalk won't work against you, darn!

@crovax1375

4 жыл бұрын

@@milohobo9186 ? My denim t-top don't come off for nobody!

"Jace's Whatever" (2)(U) Instant Counter target spell, or not. It doesn't matter anyway.

@sarahmiller4980

4 жыл бұрын

MrVotiga Maybe it has X in the cost, but doesn’t mention X in the rules text. I guess.

@colinhanrath5351

3 жыл бұрын

Make this an un card

@sandwichboy1268

3 жыл бұрын

"Jace's Whatever (2)(U) Creature - illusion Flash When you cast Jace's Whatever, you may counter target spell or ability. When Jace's Whatever gets countered, target player mills 10 cards.

Cedh players don’t want to win on turn 2 with a bunch of casual decks. We want a full pod of cedh decks.

@Kozi15

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed, those players are not cEDH player my dude they are pub stompers.

@xChikyx

4 жыл бұрын

yeah, also, players with cEDH decks in casual tables suck... Not too long ago I was playing a 6 people table and a guy won on his turn 2 while the rest of us only had tapped lands in play... 🙄😒

@F3A5T

4 жыл бұрын

cEDH isn't about winning in my book. It is about fighting through all of the interaction to get to the win. If you win without ever being interacted with, it feels hollow and leaves an empty feeling.

@assaultnya6233

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, and mislabeling cEDH, and cEDH players, like this just makes people scared of it.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

@@F3A5T "cEDH isn't about winning in my book." You don't seem to understand cedh, dude. Sorry. : / If I win with my cedh deck turn 1 without a battle, I feel great, because that was amazing.

I would love to see prof cosplaying Leovold once his hair grows back.

@kyleerwin3555

4 жыл бұрын

And then he could make a really “evil” themed deck tech ahaha

@andrelee7081

4 жыл бұрын

@@kyleerwin3555 That sounds right up the Instructor's alley

Shivam points out painterservant Combo for cedh and I smile forgivingly, sleeving up thassas oracle for flashhulk.

@oateater5044

4 жыл бұрын

It's no good! It only kills one person, Shivam!

@glocca

4 жыл бұрын

Lmfaooo I’ve been playing sushi hulk for a couple weeks now

@glocca

4 жыл бұрын

Scott Schauben, it’ll win before you’re able to get enough stax going. Better mull for that Void lol or your rip

@llamacandy9894

4 жыл бұрын

Yeh dont know if any viable cedh deck runs painters servant grindstone

@glocca

4 жыл бұрын

Definitely not.

Prof on Saturday: "Every mono-colored deck should run Dust Bowl!" Shivam on Tuesday: "I took Dust Bowl out of my mono-colored deck because it makes everybody miserable!"

@jalchi8367

4 жыл бұрын

Titania is not very mono coloured

@dannylut9711

4 жыл бұрын

@@jalchi8367 How so?

@justwrath2049

4 жыл бұрын

It's plainly visible that Prof and Shivam are not exactly on the same page as to what's healthy in casual commander, but that Prof is willing to give the spotlight to Shivam's point of view.

@PiroMunkie

4 жыл бұрын

What blows my mind is that he took them out because he was blowing up other people's lands... in a Titania deck. You could just blow up your own lands instead. The cards don't specify that it has to be an opponent's land. With multiple exploration effects in play and a crucible/excavator, you could very easily put 20+ power in play in a single turn. Just design your deck with a low CMC and go ham on your own lands.

"Some cards are just inherently broken" Me looks at banlist. Looks at copious amounts of fast mana. Yea okay

@TheHMinnow

4 жыл бұрын

@@jakemaxwell3810 its a casual format. Just social contract unban and proxy.

@samverick

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheHMinnow why even have an official banlist at that point?

@justwrath2049

4 жыл бұрын

@@samverick In my mind, the official banlist is for two things : 1) cards that are both really ubiquitous AND really unaffordable, like most of the power 9 (Timetwister is the exception because it's not ubiquitous enough, and Sol Ring gets a pass solely (pun intended) because it's affordable), and 2) cards that even people who don't want to abuse the game are going to run without thinking about it, that overwhelm and ruin games easily (prime example (pun intended) being Primeval Titan). I'm certainly not saying the current banlist is doing a perfect job of these two things, but I think that's what it's trying to do, and I appreciate what it's trying to do.

@steveng6721

4 жыл бұрын

The rules committee are a fucking joke and I dont even think they really understand the format

@somedudeontheinterwebs45

3 жыл бұрын

Just Wrath then why is library of Alexandria banned but bazaar of Baghdad isn’t? The argument could be made that bazaar does more to influnce the game than library, as library draws a couple of cards for free, while bazaar gives free discard and dredge triggers. Both cards cost over a thousand and Library is a colorless nonbasic land, shut down by pretty much any land hate. Both cards would only see play at an established players’ or cedh table, which means that both cards will be significantly worse(back to basics, blood moon, strip mine, etc). (No hate btw, I just wanted to bring the point up)

I think the most important thing said in the podcast was "it's about how your opponents feel when they leave the table". That's been my main philosophy for years from the deck building stage all the way to the win. If I win and my friends didn't have a good time I didn't really win.

@Diogolindir

Жыл бұрын

My playgroup is very small and hard to ensamble since we are all adults. They like when someone wins but they feel like they could have done something to prevent that win. So I want my decks to feel fair for them for I want to respect my friends's time

@queequeg00

10 ай бұрын

this is so good!

My only addition as someone who plays a lot of cEDH is that "competitive" Commander is also casual. It's still just games with friends and hanging out, just with much more powerful decks and an understanding that nothing is off limits. In a weird way I actually find cEDH more social, because no one ever gets salty about a card someone is playing.

@finalshade14

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you! The salt in casual is unbearable

@BrandoCalrizzien

4 жыл бұрын

THIS!!!

@BrandoCalrizzien

4 жыл бұрын

Example. Armageddon doesn’t matter when only 30 out of 45 of your mana sources are lands.

@rhozpogi

4 жыл бұрын

dude your so right, NO ONE CRIES after anyh cedh, but in casuals? heaven forbid u cast a overloaded cyclonic rift and see all the salt just flowing. none of that in cedh community.

@Amyas80s

4 жыл бұрын

Semantics

45:44 I waited 45 minutes just for this moment. Best part of the video lmfao xD

@Vuadanee

4 жыл бұрын

omg that made me laugh more than it should've

@joshuanorris5860

4 жыл бұрын

My favorite is the end when he tells him about "standard" haha For me there was always just two ways to play magic... Type 1 or Type 2. All we ever played was T1 casual. Its similar because it is also inherently broken. With no banned cards etc. You just have to play nice :P

I define casual as pulling blows if somebody is having bad time. making plays for thr lols. flavor wins etc. I have a tuned deck for cedh and thats fine as long as everybody at table wants that.

@CreditedJester2

2 жыл бұрын

If i see my freind across the table and they are having a hard time getting lands then i help them out abit and Armageddon. :)

@michaelkierum42

2 жыл бұрын

@@CreditedJester2 funny story I took my cedh deck to major tourny and got slammed. second game took out a thrown together enchantments deck and it turns out NOBODY likes when I turn their commander into a land or frog or icy pop.

“Jace Whatever”...haha! Take note Unteam!

While winning is important, MTG has always just been an excuse to hang out with my play group. Especially as we get older, and myself moving soon. I've bought so many boxes lately just so every weekend I could fire off a free draft. Only a few of us are into EDH, but no one can resist a free draft. (I buy the box and keep the cards, everyone drafts for free. I also bought bulk sleeves for everyone.) We do ignore the EDH banlist, if you want to play Iona, Grislebrand, Braids? We will simply gang up on you.

@KumaKaori

4 жыл бұрын

Time to craft some cubes, from all that draft chaff ;)?

@Guccibear100

4 жыл бұрын

@@KumaKaori Exactly, I did 2 Modern Horizon, and a Battle bond. Everything else is still in standard, but Whoo boy I have some cube ideas ready to go!

@matthewwizardify

4 жыл бұрын

I dunno, it's hard to table correct for some things. If you table hate someone into the stone age, then that person is not playing. If you don't hate enough, their combo goes off. Most of the time, I prefer the banlist so that people don't feel compelled to play some combination of blue/ black so that you can interact enough to avoid losing

As always, it's about mindset. I'm a very casual budget commander player, so I'm going to be miserable playing a cEDH level deck. However, theres absolutely nothing wrong with cEDH. If that's how they wanna play and enjoy it, then that's great. It comes down to communication amongst players to know what everyone wants out of a game.

@Boi10217

4 жыл бұрын

cEDH can actually be very budget friendly, as most play groups actively encourage proxies. The goal is to play with the best cards so that the winner is the best player/pilot, not the one with the most money.

@jamespooh2

4 жыл бұрын

I agree! I like winning and I like being competitive but my decks are still super casual and can play with almost anyone. With that being said not hate toward cedh. Just not my thing and that's cool

@jamespooh2

4 жыл бұрын

@@Boi10217 I think it's more of a gameplay thing than a cost thing. Casual vs. Cedh is super different in terms of gameplay and I cant speak for the op but I like watching play with power and other channels but I couldn't see myself putting time and energy into it. Just not my way to play but respect to you

@GreenestTrampler

4 жыл бұрын

James, exactly. There is a different mindset. I've played competitively in various formats, so I k ow theres a difference in mindset. A good example: I have a four color group hug deck. It's not meant to win. I enjoy it in my play groups as much as my other decks. You couldnt take that kind of deck and get the same feeling to a cEDH game. It's not a bad thing. Just different.

TL; DL: When you're going to play, make sure everyone gets to have fun in some way.

I love your long form podcast style videos. Glad to see more of them. Love ya man

Shivam makes cEDH players sound like pub stompers. They aren't. Pub stompers are the ones who show up to a casual table, knowing it's a casual table, and do they're best to make sure no one but them play Magic. cEDH players want to play a full competitive pod where everyone knows what's going to happen.

@toddlowrey189

4 жыл бұрын

MrInvisibleJ isn’t knowing what’s gonna happen go against what edh is about?

@MrInvisibleJ

4 жыл бұрын

@@toddlowrey189 you have a rough idea, a casual table will probably spend the first couple turns ramping then probably play some big dumbs or some synergy pieces. Cedh will spend the first turn or two ramping then start deploying combo pieces, while holding up interaction like counter spells or similar

@WGG-01

4 жыл бұрын

I think people just mix up cedh people with competitive people with a ton of money that just want to win but aren't really at cedh level. Like the lgs I go to runs a casual 5 dollar tournament and the only prize for winning the two rounds is an extra booster pack aside from the one you get just for entering yet some people randomly show up with 5000 dollar decks and are unbeatable to the majority of the store and think that is okay cause it is a tournament not taking into account that people actually wanna play.

@MrInvisibleJ

4 жыл бұрын

@@WGG-01 that's the exact idea cedh people are trying to correct. Cause being called that a-hole is not fair to people who just enjoy powerful magic

@patrickschmidt6140

4 жыл бұрын

@@toddlowrey189 I completely agree. I sit down with my friends and we decide what kind of game we're gonna play. Sometimes I'm playing Jhoira or Kykar, and other times I'm playing Feather. We just enjoy lots of interaction and we like to play the powerful stuff sometimes.

I have to say, I feel like the mark was missed here while the topic was on Competitive EDH. I would love to see you bring on someone from the Spike Feeders or something to see how actual cEDH players view cEDH.

@MJnyxstar

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah that was a bit out of scope. I play legacy and have a really optimized deck, but we're not the win hungry fellows they describe. We just want cool and powerful interactions and decisions. I think they should have started with the psychometrics to explain what players research : all competitive player have a lot of spike in them, but often also a lot of something else.

@TheSpikeFeeders

4 жыл бұрын

Prof very graciously offered to fly me out to talk cEDH several weeks ago. It's coming, I just have to get time of from my day job approved! Jim

@MJnyxstar

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheSpikeFeeders I wish one of you guys were in the commander committee too, it's really scary to see how disconnected they appear in this kind of videos.

@patrickschmidt6140

4 жыл бұрын

@@MJnyxstar Exactly, and the thinking for the banlist is so flawed it's funny. He talks about how some cards are too good, but the list of cards unbanned are way stupider. There shouldn't be a banlist. Period. And honestly my thought is hey, play whatever you want with your friends, but it sucks how much financial power they have. Like when Paradox Engine got banned and went from I think around 40+ to 5$ That just hurts all the people who picked one up in the weeks before to play with.

Here from Chile, and I gotta say that a lot of new commander are also played a lot here because they are around. You can get some legends of more recent sets with far more ease than older ones, specially when you need to pay like $50 for shipping if you want to order from CK or SCG.

I don't understand why one would be okay with combos, but hate on cards like Torment of Hailfire and Emrakul.

@MrFlayer4

4 жыл бұрын

Torment noun severe physical or mental suffering. Of course card is trying be most unenjoyable as its possible, its a freaking Torment

@thetimebinder

4 жыл бұрын

Because like most casuals, he just hates things that stop him while thinking his stuff in what is okay.

@savingark1528

4 жыл бұрын

They said why, tormet and emrakrul are “i win the game cards”(something they are fine with) that drag out the game because they don’t necessarily win the game.

Play to Win, an explicitly CEDH KZread channel, published a list of Casual Commander guidelines. I think they summarize it well: * No infinite loop combos * No instant win cards * No mana-positive rocks (except Sol Ring) * No urestricted tutors costing less than 3 mana * No zero-cost counter spells * No off-color fetch lands * No cards valued over $100 The only point I'd differ with is card value which I think should be limited to $25 max.

One of my things on my bucket list is to 1 meet the professor, and 2 play a commander game with him

@JeanPKlaus

4 жыл бұрын

I'd like that too.

@Slashoom

4 жыл бұрын

@Ethan Slicer You're only gonna get one shot, so be sure to play torment of hailfire in a stax deck with tanglewire

@MrFishPie

4 жыл бұрын

Both the Professor *and* Shivam! Professor: Merfolk. Shivam: Soldiers. Me: Thopters. Player 4: Slivers.

I don't get bans on high ramp cards (or any cards) when there are still countless ways to make infinite mana in EDH (and break the game in general). Like... Ya banned Primeval Titan. Big whoop? Doesn't change my friend's Breya deck from going infinite with Mana on turn 4 or 5. The ban list is so arbitrary.

@bobdole8830

4 жыл бұрын

Just ban ALL infinite combos in your casual group, and set a budget to force people to use tier 2 cards

@bobdole8830

4 жыл бұрын

@@Narabedla4 well this was a short version of a longer comment where I spoke about caping infinite loops to a given number 6, 8, 10 etc.

@jbama82

4 жыл бұрын

@@bobdole8830 your comment illustrates how dumb the ban list is. Regardless of what's on the list, playgroups are going to each have their own unique social contracts. Khiki-Jiki and Restoration Angel is a combo thats legal, but I still don't want it because imo combo is lame. But, that's just me. I'm one player with one sense of taste for what I like and dislike. And I can express that to my group. So why does the rules committee even muddy the waters? The rules list says I can't run Primeval Titan in my casual Ghired deck when all I want to do is populate Titans for the lulz, but any deck can have infinite mana with Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth? It makes SO little sense!!! Just do away with the ban list and let Commander be Commander and let people be people. We don't need a rules committee telling us how to have fun. That's completely subjective and should be left to the players of each group; not a group of strangers that think (emphasis on "THINK") they know best.

@bobdole8830

4 жыл бұрын

@@jbama82 Not sure why youre so salty, the same goes the other way around as well, if your group agrees on playing banned cards no one is stopping you from doing so. To me it seems you are mad because no one WANTS to play those cards with you and I think the banlist is a great tool for casual players that don't potentially know all 24k cards to get a rough idea which cards will prevent you from having a good time. But ultimately it's just a recommendation l.

@Jakerunio

4 жыл бұрын

Jeremy Everett Jones the fact that edh doesn’t have a competitive metagame with sanctioned events reporting results and lists that we can properly draw data from makes it impossible to actually decide what is truly too oppressive in the format. Most people have a general idea of what is really good, and cEDH players constantly try to push those boundaries (and ironically tend to end up with more fair/balanced metagames than the typical casual pod, lol) but since the banlist is determined by the opinions of a very small group of people that are founded only on their experiences and feelings (in a non competitive, non objective viewpoint lol) is clearly messed up. So yeah, I agree that the banlist makes 0 sense and it’s because of the way it is designed and who it is managed by (aka not WotC).

I play torment of hailfire...and hour of devestation, and cruel ultimatum. I mean it's fine becuase it's a full bolas deck! right?

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

How dare you olay flavor cards some random person could be minorly annoyed by?!

@chaoticjexak

4 жыл бұрын

@@lolimmune I know right? i don't even run an infinite mana combo to abuse ToH with....like someone else in my commander group does

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

" I mean it's fine becuase it's a full bolas deck! right?" It is man. It's bolas style.

@chaoticjexak

4 жыл бұрын

@@d.w.7203 eggs bolasdict a balanced breakfast

@hoppeltrottel7484

4 жыл бұрын

Fine with me. Flavor decks are awesome, even if they contain cards that may cause some salt with a few players.

Prof, these podcasts are great! I really enjoy listening to them whilst deck building. Commander is such a great format and it's awesome to have podcasts that explores all the different aspects of it. Thanks!

Hey Professor thanks for all you do! I just listened to Keeping Commander Casual and wow did it resonate with me. It’s why I learned magic then quite back in college because people weren’t willing to acknowledge casual. Now I found Commander and love the idea of the format and wow just thank you. Your videos been helping make me better along with my friends as we sit and play casual. You have a standing invitation to sling spells with us anytime.

I mostly play Cedh, but I play casual as well. The biggest difference I experience is almost most casual players don't play much interaction, removal, countermagic etc.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

Could be your pods, Jean.

@VexylObby

4 жыл бұрын

There are VARIED types of interaction.

@jean-paulbascelli1078

4 жыл бұрын

I mean specifically stack interaction in the form of countermagic, as well as instant speed removal. The above are more of a hallmark of Cedh, as opposed to casual edh in my personal experience. I play Casual edh weekly at my local shop, so my opinion is just based on my experiences over about 7 years approximately. Typical Saturday casual edh bring 35-40 players consistently on a weekly basis. Most played archtype is battlecruiser/monster fest, which is fine by me. If I want to exert my efforts into Cedh, I indulge as well (my personal deck being Thrasios/Vial smasher 4 color control).

@VexylObby

4 жыл бұрын

@@jean-paulbascelli1078 Definitely a personal experience.

cEDH player here. A lot of what Shivam is saying about casual is also true about cedh. He says casual is about playing your favorite cards, but my favorite cards are the really good ones. I like necropotence and force of will because they are good cards. He says for casual " I want to win but I still want to hang out with you." I still wanna hang out with my friends when we're playing cedh. If I lose it's whatever we still played a good game. Just cause I want to win mean doesn't mean I'm miserable if I don't. its not a "casual players want to have fun" VS "competitive players wants to win" thing. I want to have fun. Winning is fun. Creating an efficient, consistent strategy is fun. I think the difference between casual and competitive is purely a mindset change. casual players play to play competitive players play to win

@MrGreenixx

4 жыл бұрын

Dylan Sweeney I prefer cedh because it features a lot more interaction on the stack and decision making compared to casual.

@finalshade14

4 жыл бұрын

@@MrGreenixx spot on my guy

@Kozi15

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed on this, FUN is very SUBJECTIVE whats Fun for him might not be fun for us and vice-versa. He keeps preaching and preaching and preaching that casual commanders should be fun? Like what heck cEDH is fun for me.

@luiscases5049

4 жыл бұрын

Dylan Sweeney Exactly there’s so much interaction in cEDH and decision making that makes the games into a huge puzzle to solve especially while playing meta pod

@fingerling1231

4 жыл бұрын

Well said. I was going to comment something similar. You can still socialise while playing cEDH but the conversation tends to be more dictated by interactions within the game. I like cEDH because your deck always has a shot of doing something in a game rather than getting stomped by the deck that got a lucky draw while you're struggling to set up.

I can only speak for myself here: I play EDH to have fun. As long as I feel it was a great game, I don't care if I win or lose. Heck, I even have a Tuvasa deck with the main goal to force a draw with Enchanted Evening + Ajani's Chosen/Archon of Sun's Grace, because when no one wins, there are no losers, right? And I also play cEDH to have fun, but on another powerlevel. Of course a powerlevel that everyone agreed on. And of course, in cEDH I want to win. But in cEDH every player is on the same level. No one gets mad at certain cards, because that's what cEDH is about. Play the best of the best. So yeah, even though if I play to win, fun is still the main reason why I play. I have a deck for almost every powerlevel, from upgraded Precon (Kadena) to cEDH (Fblthp, G-E Kefnet), and of course communication before a game of Commander is key.

The bit about standard at the end had me ROLLING!

Shivam really needs to watch some of the Competitive Channels out there... I love your work Brian, but I couldn’t make it through this one (and that doesn’t fall on you here). There is a *social aspect* to competitive. That doesn’t take a backseat just because we’re trying to win games. I like the challenge a table of four competitive lists brings, but beyond that I love playing with my pals. Trust me, it takes a lot for four grown adults to gather around a table to game: we’re not doing it to ram each other into the ground, that’s simply a byproduct of going against my Selvala 🧙‍♂️ Keep up the great work and thank you for keeping all your interview(ee)s honest. PS - Painter Servant + Grindstone only knocks out one Opponent at a time. 🙅‍♂️ No one’s on it. Same reason us Competitives avoid Helm of Obedience + RiP (if we can).

@maddiebuscemi2267

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed. CEDH has this rep for being a spiky mean format, and it isnt at all. Its the same as regular commander but with high powered decks. Most people don't play in tournaments. Its mostly the same idea of a few people sitting around a table playing decks they find fun, just they win faster and are more efficient.

@darkjigoo

4 жыл бұрын

This is essentially what I wanted to say. Everyone in the competitive pod still wants to have fun playing Magic, the decks that are being used happen to be extremely strong. We like the feeling of playing powerful cards against other powerful cards, and I believe that's something that literally EVERYONE who plays Magic can relate to. Edit: also forgot to mention that I thoroughly enjoy your channel and currently Im also putting together your Teshar list for fun

@finalshade14

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly my guy

@MrFlayer4

4 жыл бұрын

I get it, games are mostly fast, but almost every game is chock-full of interaction and decision making. Honestly I can't anymore play a game that is "four ships passing in the night" for 2 hours straight. Faster games means that I get to see more of my deck, more of my opponent's deck and more importantly I get to play with more people. And we're all are know what to expect from a game so noone will be surprised that sombody comboed at turn 3 or you got staxed out of the game. All the points he made for casual play are 100% true for cEDH. We all play for fun and I glad that format like edh exist.

@CAF-Esports-ROOK

4 жыл бұрын

@@maddiebuscemi2267 tournament EDH also plays a lot different than your average cEDH game.

From the definition of casual in this podcast cedh is actually casual

I love these videos. I think I this had a lot of points in it that I really have found to be true in most games of commander I've played. Thanks for a great video!

Since I've started watching "Casually Competitive MTG", cEDH doesn't seem as terrible as I used to think. More exposure dispels the fear. Also, I once won on turn 4 with my Yargle deck, but it was christmas Magic & I wouldn't call it competitive. (1vs1). Also, don't hate on Torment of Hailfire. Games gotta end somehow.

@ruecianbeoulve7770

2 жыл бұрын

Torment is a wonderfully fair and beautiful card. I love it every time, whether I'm winning with it, losing to it, or it's just morphing the game by shifting resources. If my win con requires a whole bunch of built up mana and get's more than countered by staples like Narset's Reversal, it's absolutely completely fair. Also the complaint by Shivam here is like... I don't want to seem rude, but it's just a little math to determine just how much life or board you want to end up with, or if it ends you. It's really not that complicated. Can you just lose the life, or do you have low value tokens? Cards in hand that are no longer as useful? I've never had much trouble figuring out what to choose from a Torment, and I get that math is just harder for some people, but that's all over the game in general, so one card can't be blamed on that basis.

@NekoSauce

Жыл бұрын

Cedh basically represents the most expensive, most powerful cards and tests the player on how well you can play those cards. At it's base that what it is. Which can be extremely fun. However, at the same time I like playing with power 7 decks. Optimized if you will. Not cedh but almost. I find it to be just casual enough and within a reasonable price range to have the most fun for me personally. Plus side is it's more common to find players on the same level. True cedh players can be hard to find at your lgs

For those who want to listen to previous episodes of this and "Dies To Removal," episodes get uploaded on Apple, Soundcloud, etc. several days after they air here. See the links below or just search on your favorite podcast listening app! Apple: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dies-to-removal/id1444537761 SoundCloud: soundcloud.com/tolariancommunitycollege/how-to-evaluate-your-commander-decks-power-level-untitled-magic-the-gathering-podcast-1

@brianlezama2263

4 жыл бұрын

Hey Prof! Why not call these podcasts 'Tea With The Comi-tee'?

@darkice12321

4 жыл бұрын

Prof, I'll build a non tutor deck to sit down with. I'm in the Portland area too

I've played plenty of regular EDH and quite a bit of cEDH, for me EDH has by far a higher percentage of games that feel underwhelming - mainly due to an imbalance in power level due to the subjective nature of power levels. My playgroup has tried calibrating our power level but it only goes so far, especially as the natural safety valves on certain strategies are frowned upon (land destruction, stax). cEDH has a large community of testers, which help to balance games - I rarely feel like I have no chance of at least impacting the game.

@W1DO

4 жыл бұрын

I dont mind land destruction, I dont mind stax... I do mind 10 minute turns.

@jamessheffield9091

4 жыл бұрын

@@W1DO I tend to see those in regular games of EDH when someone has inadvertently created a combo they weren't aware their deck was capable of... or even worse they were aware of the combo before the game started.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

" mainly due to an imbalance in power level due to the subjective nature of power levels" No, more like bad communication. Communicate better and this will be fine.

Hey prof! Shivan was also my favorite card from back in the day. I found a slot for a copy from Revised in my Ur-Dragon casual EDH. Other dragons may be stronger or more efficient, but the Shivan is by far the most beautiful of the pack to me. Great content!

This new untitled podcast has been *seriously* fantastic. I love seeing the prof talk with new guests, and this got me interested in checking out Shivam's other stuff.

Playing torment of hailfire as a pseudo board wipe is akin to playing mass land destruction or an overloaded rift without a followup: annoying to everyone at the table. I use hailfire as the finisher in my Korvold lands deck, where one of the finishers is to use boseiju and squandered resources to create a giant uncounterable hailfire to win. The game needs to end eventually, and I think I'm allowed to do so if I have 15+ lands on board to generate 30+ Mana. Also, some the comments made make it sound like you can't play aggressively in "casual" commander. You should be allowed to punish people for doing nothing before turn 6 or 7 and if you aren't running interaction or board wipes to hold off an aggressive playstyle early then that is your fault not the fault of the player attacking you. I like to build low to the ground and efficient regardless of the win condition or intended competitiveness of the deck, but this episode makes it sound like efficient cards aren't fun, which is not true. Efficient cards allow you to do more early in a game, which sounds fun to me.

I prefer cEDH because there is no misunderstandings. No one is surprised when someone cyc-rifts, no one is just staring at the table with their minotaur tribal deck. No one gets mad because some one uses removal or counterspells to stop them from winning. cEDH is still social and its still fun. cEDH also has Considerablely less salt and anger. The guy playing across doesnt get mad cuz I combo off. cEDH players go "oh i lost! Good game, go again?" Many casual games ive played will start out as "oh my decks like a 7/10" me,"oh ok i'll play my derpy tribal deck" then i eat them alive because they have no idea how to judge power levels. Then they immediately get salty and cry about cedh without knowing what cedh decks even look like.

@persephone9360

4 жыл бұрын

....anyway

@CraigArgyleAudio

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly my take. Casual edh players have been more toxic than they claim competitive to be, like needy children.

@SvviftDeath

4 жыл бұрын

The moment someone gets salty about the deck I'm playing is when I do one of two things. First/best option is try to explain the differences between our decks and offer advice for cheap replacements to improve their deck while still making it casual and fun to play. Second option is if they are refusing to listen or take advice and want to still complain about deck power level play my best deck next (not cedh T1 but still T 1.5 - 2, Karador Hulk Combo) and show them first hand the difference in power. I almost never resort to option 2 but sometimes you have to put people in their place. I'm also converting the deck to Sushi Hulk once I get the blue cards I'm missing and switching the commander to Tymna/Thrasios. I know it's meta but I've been playing Karador since it was first released and I was planning the switch to Breakfast/Shuffle Hulk before Thassa's Oracle was spoiled and that made it all the more sweeter for me.

@lewdycutey3988

4 жыл бұрын

this is why I started playing with the cedh group near me and stopped 'casual' pods all together. casual pods are full of toxic whiners who cant evaluate their own decks or even other cards. considering painters and the other bs in this vid its clear that goes all the way to the RC.

@kdchmln

4 жыл бұрын

this is more a knock against playing with strangers than playing casual edh. i play casual edh with the same friends every week and none of this nonsense would fly.

I love the term 'motivation'. Its the perfect way to phrase the difference between competitive and casual play.

The commander ban list has some really odd choices to me that don't fit the philosophy presented here. Biorhythm? Coalition Victory? Are these cards the boogeymen in a format as busted as commander?

@andrewlaverghetta715

4 жыл бұрын

Patrick McHugh if you’ve seen some of the other comments on this in other places, part of the ban list is a guide as to the kinds of things they don’t think should be part of commander.

@patrickmchugh4616

4 жыл бұрын

@@andrewlaverghetta715 I understand, but the inconsistency is strange to me. Take "Balance" for instance. I understand how it can be abused and generally slows down the game and overall seems pretty unfun. This would be an example of "the things they don't think should be part of commander" right? Well what about Pox? What about Death Cloud? Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's Bargain are too abuseable in a 40 life format, but Necropotence is okay? It's really about lack of consistency in my opinion.

@jamespooh2

4 жыл бұрын

@@patrickmchugh4616 they won't ban all cards that are similar. They'll ban one representative card and say that this kind of effect in general isn't that fun in edh. Again you can ignore the banlist if you want anyways so it doesn't really matter

@patrickmchugh4616

4 жыл бұрын

@@jamespooh2 Yeah I understand that cards are banned in a sort of "spirit of fun" mentality that could apply to many other cards. But my point still stands: what's the point of a banlist at all if it can be ignored or subverted with cards that have the same effect? I guess overall I'm saying that the banlist should be put in place for cards like the mox, chaos orb, shahrazad, and the power nine because they are stupidly overpowered and/or just create problems in terms of how the game is played. The format is fundamentally broken at its core and that is part of the fun. If I lost to Sundering Titan being bounced repeatedly I don't think I would mind, nor would I find fault at losing to a resolved Sway of the Stars. And yet I can legally lose to Kefnet Time Walk abuse and it's apparently okay? It just seems like a ban list in general is pointless when everyone should talk to their playgroup about what they find acceptable or not.

@jamespooh2

4 жыл бұрын

@@patrickmchugh4616 games store leagues and commander nights. It's the only place where the banlist is law. It is needed for game stores because it creates a guideline of what's to be expected since it's hard to create a playgroup dynamic with such little time. Plus most game stores want to keep it casual so they want the ban list.

First off, love the content. Keep it up. Disclaimer: My preferred level of commander is casual. Battlecruiser to optimized, some decks possibly borderline pubstompy but everyone was on the same page.(everyone playing powerful but we wouldn't do so hot in a cEDH pod) I used to really dislike cEDH and the(my supposed) idea of it, for some of the same reasons outlined in the video. Context: I had a great playgroup of about 10 people that would get together all the time to play fun, powerful, and at times whacky decks.(there's that rule of three) However, I eventually moved and found that the game store in my new area had a commander night on Mondays. I started going and observed that the players most consistently there played cEDH. They had casual decks too, for when they were in a casual pod, but they preferred competitive. What surprised me was that before every game, if someone was new to the pod or they did not know the player, they would have a quick power level pow wow to avoid any games where someone would feel left out. As time went on I decided I would build a cEDH deck, for those times when only people playing cEDH were at commander night. As I was putting the deck together (Urza because of the cheap mono-colored mana base, that and I had some of the pieces) I studied, learning the nuances and the ideals behind playing competitively. (you probably saw this coming after the "life story") My whole perspective changed when I realized that it's not, finding more fun in winning, unenjoying the social aspect of the game as much, or being cutthroat. It is about making the most correct play at the correct time. (I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get it 100%) A good example of this is: Player A is at 35, Player B is at 16, Player C is in combat and can swing for 3 damage. (a huge swing, right?) Most of the time, if there is an opportunity to bring an opponent closer to losing, that is the path Player C will take. However, in a casual game, Player C might attack A because that player blew up their value enchantment earlier.(definitely my style) Another way of thinking about it would be this. Say there are two combo decks in your pod, A and B again. Both A and B have everything they need to win on board but it's A's turn and B needs an untap. A is about to go for it but you, C, have interaction that will stop the combo. Stopping A won't win you the game, you will just be giving the game to B. Unless they're feeling silly, the competitive player will allow the win and shuffle up for another. A casual Player C, in the same scenario, (I've definitely done this) might play the king-maker role because earlier Player A stole their goblin token and sacrificed it. ("It was just a token!" "No. It was my token.") My point: All of this rant is to say that there are many shades of grey when talking about EDH power levels and it's no one's place to assume what someone else would prefer. I'm a casual player but I'm glad that I had the experience of adapting for a cEDH environment. (I've moved again since then) Had I not, I would still see every competitive player as not adhering to the spirit of the format. That's how I felt. What I realize now is that instead of the grand epic army against army, clash of massive forces and wild spells, cEDH is like an old Western quick draw. Some of us prefer to be a mighty general, commanding an army. Some of us prefer taking on the EDH equivalent of Wild Bill Hickok.

Its weird how Shivam explains what casual EDH is, "Trying to win, but hanging out and having a good time." I don't see how cEDH is any different, except everyone is playing highly optimized decks. It seems like he thinks pubstompers are synonymous with cEDH, which isn't correct.

@steveng6721

4 жыл бұрын

Well he is apparently a fucking idiot my man

@theweebchannel4850

2 жыл бұрын

cEDH = play to win, EDH = play to have fun and don't care if win or lose. That's how I view it. Tho, this is very biased as I don't know a single person personally who plays cEDH.

@V2ULTRAKill

2 жыл бұрын

@@theweebchannel4850 yeah youre wrong cEDH has the exact same mentality as casual edh its just the decks have a power level on another scale

Well Done. This video should see it everywhere in Italy!

I love Torment of Hailfire, but in very few decks. Such a cool effect.

I don't like how "casual commander " means only play the cards I like and don't interrupt what I'm doing. The whole point of magic is to interact with the other players gameplan. 4 people playing solitaire is not magic.

@nosrin1988

4 жыл бұрын

you can have interaction without countering every single card your opponent plays.

@Drazatis

4 жыл бұрын

Nos Rin part of Shivam’s argument against stax like effects were that you get to sit there and watch your opponent play magic; if you don’t interact with your opponents board state then what are you doing? Watching your opponents play magic. Have your own fun, but playing 60 creatures and enchantments and no interaction is not my idea of a fun time.

@JMMarkulin

4 жыл бұрын

Nos Rin not according to this guy

@Camozuk

4 жыл бұрын

@@nosrin1988 counterspells or artifact destruction are not stax effects. An untapped island on turn one doesn't mean you can't cast spells. Learn to play around spell pierce, don't make greedy keeps on your opening 7, be prepared to do more then just dump your hand in the first few turns.Casual magic should still be functional magic.

@nimenpalac454

4 жыл бұрын

@@Camozuk An island of common sense in a sea of "casual players" that just want to play wombastic cards and no interaction.

Dwarven pony should be in every dwarf tribal deck I will die on this hill

im now going to add a 5th edition shivan dragon to my feldon deck! thanks for the idea prof :D

I see his points, but I don’t think Shivam understands enough about competitive commander, aka cEDH. I’m glad they brought playing with power on after this, to let people know how cEDH players actually think/feel.

Casual Commander our favorite format. We're always playing to socialize have fun.

Most cedh games are "casual" by the Shivam and Profs definition. In a cedh pod everyone is on the same page and are playing with a level of power that is similar. People are actually LESS salty because the games take shorter and a win is always on the table if they draw well. A TON of casual games are just playing their favorite cards and one persons "pet cards" are just way better. Even though they are playing their "pet cards" they win all the time and that can be frustrating for the rest of the pod. IMO it is more fun getting together for a couple hours and getting in more games rather than playing only 1 or 2 and getting stomped the whole time because of how impossible "casual" edh is to balance even among the players themselves.

@restoreleader

4 жыл бұрын

Yet there is one little problem with cedh, most games are incredibly identical. Tutoring for the same combo pieces, same effecient answers, especially some decks play basically the same turns every game. Also % of actual cards in deck is lower in favor of universal answers. Casual needs some diplomacy, balancing and bans in group, yet result are games of huge variety and players do not fear to construct new deck becouse it doesnt cost 1k. I wouldnt want to play pure cedh whole time, its simply boring

@PQnasty

4 жыл бұрын

@@restoreleader All edh decks are built with a gameplan or at least a theme in mind, so the same cards are going to pop up. The main mechanic unique to edh is playing your commander every game. What makes the games different is what kinds of interaction cards you each have and the decisions you make with them.

@restoreleader

4 жыл бұрын

​@@PQnasty yet the % of cards you can actually build deck from (or free slots i should say) is decreasing the more competitive you play. if cedh deck needs 5 tutors, in more causal decks you have 5 more slots for interesting cards and so on. Truth is that without stable group with policies, i would also probably play more cedh rather than arguing with random people about too toxic cards.

@LouisKing995

3 жыл бұрын

CEDH decks feel very similar though, it’s just not appealing. The reason I don’t play standard.

In the last episode, there was a discussion about games have to end and decks need a way to end games. Would like to hear an episode that dives into ways games end. And opinions on those game enders in respect to keeping it casual and fun. There’s a chat in the comments about Craterhoof vs Torment, and I found it very interesting.

Sounds like Shivam has trouble distinguishing between cEDH and pubstompers. I've experienced significantly less salt, and more "hey, let's hang out" through cEDH than I have in casual. I think his trouble started when he had to define competitive first in order to define casual.

As I read somewhere, “In the words of my local control player, ‘there’s limited fun to go around, and I want to make sure I’m having all of it’”

@jordanwolfe607

4 жыл бұрын

Stax: Because fun is a zero sum game

@shayneweyker

4 жыл бұрын

That's a toxic idea for social play. Save it for the tournament tables. And no, FNM Commander isn't tournament play.

@jordanwolfe607

4 жыл бұрын

@@shayneweyker Almost as toxic as jumping on someone for a joke in the youtube comments

@CAF-Esports-ROOK

4 жыл бұрын

@@shayneweyker you wooshed hard on that joke. Everyone knows that fun isn't a zero sum game. It's just funny to say.

cEDH is about socialization too. We enjoy playing with people with the same power lvl and we hang out with them and have a great time! But we choose the most optimized way to play and build. cEDH is about answers and be relevant through all the game.

The most painful part of this is that the commander I love most for her artwork and story and emotional resonance pretty much REQUIRES a glass cannon infinite combo type strategy to win.

My last two losses at "Casual Commander" night were to demonic tutor to search for an infinite. Next game enlightened tutor to search for an enchantment lock. Why even have a 1 card limit? Also, they don't have to ban every tutor. They simply need to make a rule similar to the one that doesn't allow cards from outside the game.

@vengray8055

Жыл бұрын

Was the infinite win after 2 hours of game play? Was it on turn 12? That kinda matters when discussing if a the win was needed or not. There is a wide variety of casual power levels. It sounds like you're looking for more casual than you found. Try finding a fun group with like minded casual fun that you enjoy. It may take a few times going there consistently but you can probably find them. That's all I did. Found a casual group and stuck to playing with them. Now when a known pubstomper tried getting in a game we just decline because we know our power level isn't the same.

Thassa's Oracle? Legal. Coalition Victory? Banned!

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

It is a broken format. Deal with it and play Oracle :)

@Quroe_

4 жыл бұрын

I mean, you're not wrong.

In my playgroup we have competitive matches (with tutors, turn 4 wins and etc...) and casual matches (no combos allowed). Both are really fun, we just have to play with the appropriate deck in each match

Thinking about building an EDH storm deck. In order to keep it casual Im putting a $100 budget on it. Sure I lose a lot of power, but at least I have enough filtering and control to reach silly states

Shivam has the kind of attitude where I just like listening to them talk.

Even the “heads” of eDH can provide nothing more than an ambiguous indication of the “difference” between casual and competitive eDH is.

Interesting take on Torment of Hailfire. To me that is a card I would view on the same page as Craterhoof. Its a big finisher to end games. And you seem perfectly fine with Craterhoof. Why do you view them differently, just curious. Also I do not agree with some points made about certain cards but overall great episode Prof

@djcochrane

4 жыл бұрын

Probably because Craterhoof requires things on the field which takes time to build up and can be interacted with vs Torment only needs a lot of mana to be an instant win. Would like to see this discussed though. The only deck I have Torment in is my Bolas themed deck.

@thegrayfox9179

4 жыл бұрын

@@djcochrane Thanks a bunch for the response. I didnt think of it that way.

@purpleganja2

4 жыл бұрын

Personally I'm ok with Torment of Hailfire, but I think it's about the choice of your own doom that can make it feel bad. With craterhoof the attacker will hopefully have calculated it in a way to just win (barring answers). With torment you need to put much more mana into it to make it lethal without a choice, so in many instances it will be a choice of dying and stop playing or stay alive while losing all your cards in hand and board presence and do nothing (also barring answers.. commandeering a torment of halifire can be very fun).

@thegrayfox9179

4 жыл бұрын

@@purpleganja2 intresting, I dont believe I have ever cast a nonleathal tormment, again as I said, to me its more of a win con, but thanks for your response. It so intresting to have a quality discussion with others about there philosiphy on a card.

@djcochrane

4 жыл бұрын

@purpleganja2 Oh! Very good point. That would be awful and potentially really draw out the game.

I have 8 total EDH decks and they all have different ways to win. But I personally don’t run infinite combos, I dial back on tutors and instead substitute with better card draw. Each deck is meant for multiplayer and highly interactive because for the entry to mid-level average player, we just want a chance to at least set up a game and see what the deck is able to do. I like it when people have the option to do their big fun things. Anyone can bring any new deck idea to the group and we don’t complain. The oppressive player will always get ganged up on, and sometimes it’s even encouraged because of the importance of threat recognition. My playgroup doesn’t have issues because we communicate and we’re all happy to play Magic!

I loved the jab at standard at the end. Funny!

I met Shivam at CommandFest Seattle, and he was a super nice guy, but I do feel like cEDH is misrepresented in this episode. As a cEDH player myself, I enjoy high-powered interactive games where everyone is trying to win while keeping everyone else in check. I do not enjoy just playing to win; I enjoy when EVERYONE is playing to win, and is equipped to do so. In my playgroup, which is a group of 4 friends at a friend's house with the occasional guest, you will see very high powered "cutthroat" games, but everyone is having fun, even when stopped. For example, while piloting Gitrog, my Turn1 mana dork was countered with Mental Misstep, then Turn2 ANOTHER Mental Misstep countered my next dork AND a Shadow of Doubt caused my fetchland to "fail to find," which I thouoght was really impressive control by my opponents & made me laugh, even though Turn3 I was starting off with a single land, that's it. I STILL won that game, btw, & for me that challenge & accomplishment are incredibly fun! I have casual decks of every power level for different groups of people, but I really really treasure the times I am able to play actual cEDH. cEDH pods are much rarer, & playing a competitive deck at a casual table to just win Turn2 or Turn3 is not fun at all. Winning through a stack 10 interactions deep against other decks trying to go off in a similar time-frame is awesome & much more rewarding. Stax & control are in every deck in my playgroup, which makes the skill of the pilots much more important. I personally get bored with casual games now, since the interactions on your own side of the board might be interesting after 7-10 turns, but in cEDH the interactions between ALL PLAYERS are interesting starting on Turn1. The level of skill needed to pilot cEDH decks in a cEDH environment is what makes me enjoy playing Magic- & I am there to have fun, but to me, that IS fun.

This is the second member of the commander Advisory boars on the show. This is also the second time I am weary of members of the commander Advisory board, and there lack of knowledge reguarding cedh.

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

Or there lack of basic gameplay concepts. Hell shivam didnt even know what his own card aura shards did, he explained the card incorrectly. That and a few other mistakes makes me some what suspicious of the CAG's ability to be an advisory group at all.

@manuelsaavedra8081

4 жыл бұрын

@@lolimmune honestly the only member of the CAG I fully trust on is JLK

I really do believe that "casual" is more of a mindset than it is a number of cards. I remember sitting down watching over all the other decks at the table and refusing to play my animate dead on my worldgorger dragon, just because i didnt want to take away the game on turn 6 when everybody just got to know each other. and beyond that, honest to god, i dont care about winning or losing when i can have "borrowed friends" for a little time.

The way I would describe casual commander is that even if you are playing to win, you are trying to win within some self-imposed or group-imposed limitations. Some examples can include price of cards or price of deck, or adherence to a particular theme amongst many other possible examples. I try my hardest to win and therefore am "competitive" during the game, but when I actually build my decks, I am much more interested in making the best deck I can while still adhering to flavor. In competitive, it is commandeering the best decks period.

After listening to this podcast with Shivam and the last one with Olivia I am convinced that there is a disconnect and fundamental misunderstanding/lack of knowledge of cEDH by members of the CAG. There is no wrong way to play MTG, casual and cEDH are both fun in their own way, but it would go a long way if Prof could speak to prominent cEDH community members to give others a better idea of what cEDH is and what it aims to achieve.

Was watching gmm and now im here. And GMM to you good professor

Me and my playgroup talked about this topic yesterday and we came to the same conclusion. Its about gathering

Coming from someone who plays both competitive and casual, the most straight forward way to explain the way I play casual is pulling my punches. I actively slow my deck down and push it towards the most fun/jank route that I enjoy or will get a funny reaction from the table. Atraxa darksteel reactor is one of my favorites, perhaps I could restore Shivam’s faith in the deck.

Here's a better definition of cEDH: You play the most efficient spells at the most mana cost-effective slots. cEDH is the legacy of commander. It doesn't mean it's mean-spirited or non-social, it's just a higher power level of cards with much more interactivity than your typical pod of commander.

@andrewlaverghetta715

4 жыл бұрын

connor9x9 that seems good to me. Because of those highly efficient, interactive plays, it doesn’t leave room for most commanders and doesn’t leave room for people to do the unique things that people traditionally do in commander.

@sephyrias883

4 жыл бұрын

cEDH does definitely not count as "more interactive". cEDH decks may be filled with more counterspells and removal, but the games also end sooner.

@sephyrias883

4 жыл бұрын

@Kathryn Rivera Casual EDH games also aren't just 6 turns long. I'm very confident that casual play ends up being a lot more interactive, especially if you consider combat and not just instants.

@andrewmarinkovich8657

4 жыл бұрын

Players (such as Shivam) who are looking for a more casual gameplay experience probably would label most cEDH decks as mean-spirited. And that's OK. The Commander "social contract" exists at all levels of play, from casual to competitive. If everybody at a table is playing a cEDH deck then those players are going to be OK with their opponents casting the most oppressive stax and combo pieces in the game. That's what cEDH players sign up for. The challenge of cEDH is not just to win quickly but to stop other decks who are also trying to win as quickly as possible, and be the one who can prevail in such an environment. Commander players who are unfamiliar with cEDH often deride it as a format where all games are over by turn 3 or 4. Sure, that does happen, and when it does you move on to the next game and try to do it again. But I've played in plenty of cEDH games that go on for an hour or more. The format can also be very grindy.

@andrewmarinkovich8657

4 жыл бұрын

I think the bigger issue is defining power level of "casual" EDH decks. I've seen plenty of high-powered "casual" decks that are miserable to play against. Those decks can wreak havoc at casual tables where people are just looking to have fun and play extended games. At least cEDH is very well-defined in that regard. Casual EDH is the format that is not well-defined and where you often have massive power inequality at any given table.

Shivam, I follow you on Twitter and we have had a few disagreements and I've wondered for awhile if we actually mostly agree but have struggled communicating effectively in so few characters. Considering that I 100% agree with everything you said here as my own philosophy for Commander, I know for sure that it is Twitter holding us back from communicating amicably. Great video!

@shivambhatt8380

4 жыл бұрын

cheers!

I built my Anowon deck around your template, Prof, and it's still one of my favorite decks. I'm planning decks around other Vampire Commanders, but I'll never blow up Anowon. Mono black vamps is just too damned much fun. And for another point you made, I'm going through the arduous process of building a (what I hope will be) powerful Breya artifacts deck completely devoid of any tutoring, lands or otherwise. I'm hoping that there's enough card draw that it'll still work. It's partially because I kinda hate the theory behind tutors, and also as a fun building challenge to help me evaluate cards in a different way.

I took apart my chulane combo deck and rebuilt it as adventure tribal with an enchantress back up plan to be able to run all of my showcase cards. It made a deck that is semi competitive but opponents smile. That was the best part of Throne of Eldraine the flavor just makes your smile.

Is the counterpoint to not having fun because a game ended too early to put in instant speed removal/interaction in your deck instead of relying on others to do so?

@finalshade14

4 жыл бұрын

Better deck construction. It feels like shivam wants to reward poor deck building. You can be casual, still build your deck to function

@gustavomartinsdesouza5548

4 жыл бұрын

The thing is that if you want to win by turn 4 consistently, you are probably winding off most of commander player base. We, casuals, do have instant removal, but the deck is not 20 slots filled with it, 10 tutors and then win cons, because that is not how we want to play most of the time. My Chulaune by example is a Mana Dork tribal. It is good but I don't run 15 instant removals because it will usually make me miserable to HAVE to run these cards instead of the ones that I truly want, but I do understand that I have to have some so I put some removals that specifically target things that can make my deck unusable like Rule of Law. If you value someones fun just by their deckbuilding standing from your own point, you are just wishing that everyone clings to competitive.

@saoirse8558

4 жыл бұрын

Nope. If someone brought a sportscar to a go-kart race, you wouldn't bash on the children for not bringing better engineered cars. They wanted a go-kart race, NOT a drag race. If someone resolves a T2 win against a table of tribal decks, you don't go: "Shoulda put in Force of Will."

@finalshade14

4 жыл бұрын

@@gustavomartinsdesouza5548 i know your exaggerating, but 10 tutors and 20 interaction slots? Most don't run more than 4 tutors. And leaving space for 5 interaction cards is usually enough.....

@gustavomartinsdesouza5548

4 жыл бұрын

The people who plays competitive around where I play usually have A LOT of interaction (10+), and by that I don't mean only instants but cards that have no other purpose on the deck other than simply lock down opponents even if the deck have absolutely nothing to do with it. And tutorwise I was exaggerating, yes but by extension a single Demonic Tutor in my country costs half of minimum wage, it is truly harsh pick up the competitively good cards like Pact, FoW, Demonic, etc around here, WAY more than USA and other better countries economically speaking, so people who play cEDH usually play the game for A LONG time or are really well financially and that makes impossible to new comers if they are the main playgroup, so, we usually just expect them to have a more friendly deck, ask them to not come, or gangup on them every game with our most aggro decks since, even if we lose, they actually feel the animosity and 1 - Go play with someone that are into cEDH, 2 - Ask a deck, which I have 9 and gladly share. The thing is, don't be too harsh on people expecting the perfect balance of interactions, they will, eventually, enhance their decks to a more manageable level, but will never be able to beat the more competitive decks at a regular basis because they build the deck to be more fun for them. It is a discussion that I have with some friends very often because they are more into cEDH and usually ask people to play with them, but most of our group don't want to, just because they are too harsh and push them to pick up more expensive or difficult to find cards that they simply just don't have the resources to. The way that I deal with is: I have 9 decks that range from 2 to 7 in power level and I have some specifically built decks that have the sole purpose to counter the main strategies that our cEDH groups have if they try to pick on our casuals too much.

Real talk. Doesn't everything he said about Primeval Titan apply to Nyxbloom?

@thetimebinder

4 жыл бұрын

No. Prime Titan's problem isn't getting 2 mana. It's getting utility lands

@project_swift

4 жыл бұрын

Not the same problem. Nyxbloom is big and scary, but Primeval Titan gets two non-basics out of your deck which is incredibly scary! I would compare Primeval Titan to Vorinclex though 👍

@GamerdevilPro

4 жыл бұрын

Prime time is a lot better than Nyxbloom ancient and it's not even close. It provides direct ETB value and if you don't remove it immediately it runs away with the game extremely fast. Nyxbloom ancient is a big dumb beater that is also an enchantment which means that every color can remove it very easily. It also does nothing when it enters the battlefield, you have to untap with it to really get value from that card. That being said I still think that card should never have been printed, it's just very boring and overall unnecessary. Nobody asked for this.

@darksteelmenace595

4 жыл бұрын

@@GamerdevilPro You're wrong there, Nyxbloom does do sth on entering which is triple your mana. This can win you games, I'd argue its almost better than getting two lands since its not a trigger and can't be stifled. Remember you can play this thing smart and win instantly off of it.

@GamerdevilPro

4 жыл бұрын

@@darksteelmenace595 if you have all the mana and cards assembled to cast a 7 mana creature enchantment and then win the game in the same turn you deserve to win. Even with a god start of t1 sol ring and signet you are nowhere near casting that thing and going off with it in the next 2 turns. That's not really a thing that's happening tho, gl resolving that spell and having all your other pieces stick around to win with it. If nobody interacts with anything, congrats, you are playing with a group of goldfishes.

Lots of interesting points in this video - thanks Prof. & Shivam. My personal take is to wonder whether it's not so much a binary between casual and cEDH, but more a spectrum. For instance you might get a deck which is halfway between the two in that it would never stand a chance at a cEDH table, but will comfortably beat a jank deck - quite where do we categorise these? It seems to me that at the moment commander could really benefit from a class system like say motorsport, or boxing, but the complexity of the game and interactions mean that we struggle for a common classification system to describe power-level below 'pure' cEDH. and above total jank

Was in a 3 hour commander game before was such a great time. Converting my 100 card 5 color planeswalker deck to a commander deck soon. Gonna be fun not having combos and playing all random planeswalkers every game.

I find it interesting how much I disagree with some of the early points this. First I find I have very much the opposite view regarding big tablewarping cards or boardstates, I find that kinda slam something down and now the game is different with a big objective or something needs to be manipulated etc. That's a lot of where the fun and varience and big cool plays come from. This is then relieved by removal. I also think things like torment of hailfire are fine, they're a win con. I don't think they are any different to exsanguinate, crater hoof etc. What's nice with torment is its also got flavour which I think just further adds to the cool factor of the card.

@GamerdevilPro

4 жыл бұрын

Especially the last part about torment of hailfire: I really have to agree, games have to end and decks need a wincon of some sort. Torment of Hailfire or a mindslaver lock are wincons. If someone wins with them, great, we can have another game.

@ronaldrogan7546

4 жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more. How is Torment of Hailfire any different than the copious amount of green "all my creatures get +x/+x and trample" or red "take double damage from my 25 goblins" spells? Or blue's "draw my deck, oops lab-man" spells. Yeah it sucks to get dunked on, but picking and choosing what game-ending cards are fun when they're not single-card wincons is dumb. No one wins with JUST Torment of Hailfire. It's usually coupled with a Crypt Ghast, Bubbling Muck, Liliana ultimate and a lot of mana.

@PiroMunkie

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I feel like their problem with Hailfire assumes the person casting it didn't do the math, which perhaps they may have experienced on more than one occasion. Personally, I'm either casting Hailfire for an arbitrarily large amount of mana, or I did the math. I don't think I've ever cast it as just a pseudo-boardwipe, and if I did it was because I had follow-up.

@GamerdevilPro

4 жыл бұрын

@@PiroMunkie I am also fine with it getting cast as a pseudo boardwipe IMO. Really nothing about that card bothers me, it's an expensive spell that has an impact as so many other things. If I eat a Plague wind, Torment of Hailfire, huge Exsanguinate, villainous wealth or a Cyclonic rift is really the same honestly.

But why are cards like sol ring not banned?

@daviddeveymestdagh303

4 жыл бұрын

Great question.

@faerie7dragon

4 жыл бұрын

Never. Because banning it would mean precons would not be playable out of the box.

@shivambhatt8380

4 жыл бұрын

because sol ring is awesome?

@daviddeveymestdagh303

4 жыл бұрын

@@shivambhatt8380 I thoroughly disagree, it leads to non-games where the person that plays it turn 1 especially when combined with a signet wins very often. It's a groan inducing card that is simply un-fun.

@faerie7dragon

4 жыл бұрын

Yes. Ramp is good, an affordable card anyone can use, pretty much up front and center of the format. Sol Ring is basically: "Welcome to EDH".

I'm loving this series

I found out about Shivam from his Kaladesh videos with LRR. His energy and positivity is infectious!

I think the rules committee has gone too far ahead of themselves when considering what is fun, and the banlist has now become a way of saying "Oh we think your way of having fun is the wrong way." I enjoy ridiculous fast combos with Paradox Engine and Fish Hulk because I'm spikey and find cutthroat competitive environments fun, and having the RC ban such things (or consider banning) just makes me feel as though my way of enjoying the game is invalidated based on a very arbitrary yardstick. As for the comment that "the cards you pick is the face you present to other people", yes I know my 23 counterspell control deck is a resting bitch face that nobody wants to see. However, instead of complaining about the slow game state that you think I've created, it's equally viable to use this information to craft a gameplan around beating a heavy control deck. One more thing about the idea of casual magic is that people don't tend to understand how cost of the deck can factor a lot into how 'casual' it is. I can build a very efficient deck on a budget, and casual players will think it's too competitive because Im actually trying to win, while cEDH players will stomp it into the ground. I feel as though the community doesn't really give a place for budget players who still want to play competitive decks, especially since it's quite an achievement to make something this efficient from suboptimal parts.

@leress

4 жыл бұрын

There are places were there are builds for budget cedh decks. Many places that I've seen that have cedh communities understand that it can be expensive to make decks so they want to lower the barrier either by using proxies or budget builds. There are also channels like the Commander's Quarters that try to make really good decks for low budgets.

@V2ULTRAKill

2 жыл бұрын

A casual pod once called my $34 Zur deck cedh Its fucking voltron zur thers NOTHING cedh about that

@vengray8055

Жыл бұрын

​@@V2ULTRAKill to them it was. They were probably very new. Or maybe they just didn't like you. Good excuse to not play

@V2ULTRAKill

Жыл бұрын

@@vengray8055 no This is simply just idiots thinking any tuned deck is cedh Heres a secret Most actual cedh decks self implode at casual tables

I feel like Shivam definitely missed the mark on his understanding of cEDH, and that worries me if he’s one of the people who has the direct ear of the RC.

@NekoSauce

2 жыл бұрын

Well share with us your understanding of cedh

@travisholcomb8787

2 жыл бұрын

@@NekoSauce Sorry man, I have better things to do than go back and watch a nearly hour-long video from 2 years ago to respond to this. 😅

ily both and this is great and informative

keeping it casual is the goal but it is nice to have that one deck that just rocks hard. having different power decks is the way to go so you can play with everyone.

The end of this episode is Gold. The entire episode was great but the end just made it for me.

I do love "some" of the points made in the opening section. Usually when I'm building a deck for EDH I want to find a Commander I find has a cool or unique effect, and then brew around that idea. I always feel great joy if I can play a creature or a spell where my friends are like "what is that?" and then when seeing what it does in my deck they're like "That's so cool." An example of this being a creature like Saltskitter in my Ephara deck. It's a not commonly seen commander and as such Saltskitter can be an unknown in some circles. Those who've brewed an Ephara deck or played against one know just how potent a pair they make and will easily have you draw 5 cards per round of the table. I don't like this idea that seems to be attributed to cEDH where it's like "the social aspect isn't important." I don't play cEDH but know people who do, and while they love the ramped up power level and wanting to win, they play to also have a good time with friends. I think the social aspect is a cornerstone of all EDH and that's what is so good about our format. 1 pod can go hell for leather with high power decks and have a great time with friends, while the next pod are playing all sorts of weird and wonderful combos and commanders and have a great time with friends. The people you play with help determine that situation along with you.

The Nexus of two of my favorite hobbies combined! Shivam is a big Dragonlance nerd too!

Shivam, I fell like that more than the cards you choose to be on your deck, the cards you choose not to play says a lot to how casual you want to play!

I completely disagree with the idea that cedh only plays to win and doesn't play to socialize. We play to win just as much as most "casual" players. If you sit down a group of cedh players they will spend the whole night playing and chatting just as much. I myself met my D&D group by hanging out with other cedh players. The only difference is power level, which is a gradient. Not some strict cut-off.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

@@blaze556922 "They will even misrepresent their decks just so they can blindside people that aren't familiar with them." Dude, those are not cedh-players. Those are jerks.

@imperialtutor8687

4 жыл бұрын

exactly and also if they win with a combo turn 2 it doesn't matter since the rest of the pod can just keep playing without that guy.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

@@blaze556922 So we can all agree, that cedh is not equal to being a jerk. What a revelation. But I think many players here in this discussion don't get real cedh either: Playing ONLY the best cards and trying to win the hardest without caring for style or favourite pet-cards. You build what is best, period. And you try to win as fast and as mercilessly as possible while playing with 3 other guys, who do the same. It is that easy.

I’d love to hear the conversation about what should come off the ban list

I really enjoy Theros. Im fairly new to magic and it was some of thr first packs ive ever bought! Ive bought a few prerelease boxes now and i really enjoy those cards!

I'm going to have to agree with everyone else in the comments. As someone who plays a good amount of both casual and competitive commander. Shivam really misrepresented cEDH here.

@shivambhatt8380

4 жыл бұрын

i fucked up and i'm sorry about that.

@mindhackz

4 жыл бұрын

Shivam Bhatt I think you made a good effort to explain it. As someone who’s never played or had a chance to play this format with anyone, it seemed like an informative video and I could see what you were getting at.

@oateater5044

4 жыл бұрын

He was closer than most to be fair.

@Hitzel

4 жыл бұрын

@@shivambhatt8380 Appreciated brother.

@d.w.7203

4 жыл бұрын

Nah, I play both and he did fine. When I play cedh I play to win and try to stomp everybody as fast as possible. Don't care how. Don't care if it upsets anybody. This IS cedh. If you don't play this way, you don't play cedh.