Great points. Thanks for discussing it further for me! I have to say I'm along a similar train of thought. While I'm not a karateka (practiced and taught taekwondo and capoeira, mainly), when I was a teen and competing in TKD it was us (competitors/fighters) who drove up the level of quality and skill in the school. My teacher was also a competitor (TKD & Kickboxing) in his younger years and kept himself up to date on methods, technique changes, etc so we could fight and be successful. So in a way, it kept the school from becoming too stagnant and insular. He encouraged everyone to compete at least once (fighting, forms or both), even if it wasn't their goal to be a competitor. One of the things that people always told me about why they were attracted to capoeira, was because it's not as formal as most traditional martial arts. Maybe there's something there as well, when it comes to adults gravitating more towards BJJ, kickboxing, and MMA today.

Adults: less body flexibility, prefer to spend limited free time differently, less interest, more financial obligations that take priority, can't afford to get injured (medical procedures, time off from work), longer recuperation time, life experience that it is better to not get into a fight and knowing that no amount of casual training is going to help against a determined no rules possibly armed surprise attacker, there are better sports to improve cardiovascular and weight loss. Some sports, like golf, help to build business relationships

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@snsnplpl agreed but BJJ is full of adults. Boxing too. Martial arts are still popular with this age group, just not karate so much anymore.

@lucalevorato7577

22 күн бұрын

I don’t think that training in a more realistic way means that you get injured and beat up. Even with sparring, you can do different levels of intensity. I come from a very traditional background, but I feel more affinity with people as Karate Unity, Andy Allen and you. At least in Karate, I think that we still perform drills and exercise just because is part of the tradition. As mature ( meaning experienced) practitioners we should have the courage to challenge the status quo of Karate and aim to an evolution. We need to network and put out our ideas/methods. This is just opinion, of course. Really enjoy your content!

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@lucalevorato7577 thanks!

I did karate as an adult & I didnt like it because of how rigid it is with its traditional practices/moves, thats it. I saw it as sub optimal. The guard is too low, doesnt allow for free expression on how to kick, very limited overall. I found much more freedom & practicality in Muay Thai where I'm let use even side kicks (yoko geri) if I want to. Besides there is clinch training, decent boxing, a decent guard, more elbows & knees & even headbutts if you are in the Lethwei type of Muay Thai.

Part of the problem is in the fact that tang soo do by itself is not a complete system. My KJN long ago realized the sense of incorporating aikido and jujitsu to augment tang soo do. We were doing mma before there was mma. Also sport karate sparring is partly a joke. It's a game of tag where only the fast prevail. Not how real fighting works.

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@stormshadowctf I don’t think any martial art really is complete. That is the cool thing about MMA. Aikido and Japanese Jujutsu have the same fundamental problems I’m talking about here. It’s an issue throughout all ‘traditional’ martial arts. Point fighting has its limitations, it needs to be understood for what it is and not assumed to be something it’s not. That said, karate people are generally far better off with it than they are without it. The worst martial arts come from those who don’t compete at all. Competition is key to functional martial arts.

5:26 music and quite literally almost any complex and specialized skill set works for building self-discipline and growing as a person and whatnot as well

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@steak9194 totally agree. I started learning guitar when I was 27. It’s hard picking up something new as an adult but it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. This is a really key point that I was trying to get at here. In traditional martial arts many people are dismissive of those who point out that the training methodology really isn’t very effective. They say that you’re missing the point, that karate isn’t really about fighting at all. I get what they mean, that you benefit from learning something new in indirect ways that can enrich your life in general. My response is that I don’t need karate for that though, I can get that through music and many other pursuits. I think the reality is that there are many people out there that would be better off doing something other than martial arts.

Honestly where I train it's the opposite: I'm near 40 and I'm bringing the average age of the adult class *down*. Most of the practitioners in the adult class in my club are above the age of 50. I believe in one unified belt ranking system, for kids and adults, so that everyone is on the same page when it comes to where they are at in the curriculum. No black belts given to anyone under the age of 18, period. I think when it comes to the three K's of Karate (Kata, Kihon, Kumite) I fear that in traditional dojos, there still isn't a whole lot of quality freestyle kumite being done. I feel that when it comes to sparring, 80% of your sparring should be done at 20% intensity, and that's a skill that needs to be developed as early as possible within a student's karate career. I think competition, especially at the state and regional level, is extremely important for up and coming students (those going through the colored belts, the kyu ranks). Great talk, excited to see the next one!

@TimothyAdams-ln2jr

18 күн бұрын

"I'm near 40 and I'm bringing the average age of the class *down*." Are you Kyokushin or Goju?

I agree gotta spar and it don’t have to be super hard like technically spar and turn it up now and then with the higher belts there a lot not aloud I’d like to see more full contact not just point fighting

I 100% agree, and im sorry that people seriously misunderstood you enough to beckon this video. You don’t have to explain to them. Three additional thoughts: The belts are a good tool for the instructor: to track where everyone is. If the belts are done in a way where it’s truly difficult to get the next belt, then adults like it. BJJ’s appeal to adults has demonstrated that. If the belts are used as candy to reward and motivate them every few weeks to months, then adults reject it. 2nd thought: kids having less curriculum has actually been better from my experience, because kids have far less motor skills and coordination, and less curriculum gives them time to actually develop those attributes. In your defense: No, we’re not just “describing MMA” because the techniques are different, the goals are different, and we’re not training specifically for the sport of MMA. There’s more to Martial Arts than just MMA.

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@jaymorsis-official I think BJJ does in general do a better job of maintaining high standards for belts. They have the same fundamental problem though, which is that the belt really is just supposed to be representative of your ability. In boxing, there are belts but you have to win them in competition. That’s your rank, your competitive record. This is a much more honest system in many ways. BJJ also is kind of going this direction with nogi competition and practice.

We do a family class I had a parent say years ago my son goes then I gotta run him home find someone to watch him and get back to the adult class so we been putting them together

On the other hand , this so called casual training might just save your life

Thanks for putting these videos out. I don't see the traditional-vs-effective debate slowing down any time soon. I'm wondering if you'll share your thoughts on language education as an important aspect of cultural transmission inherent to Tang Soo Do and other traditional martial arts. As someone with a Linguistics background who has studied Korean for many years now, while I am committed to TSD, the widespread ignorance and butchering of the Korean language (and history!) is appalling to me. How can we use TSD to preserve Korean--and East Asian more broadly--history, philosophy, and culture without knowing anything about the language or what words mean, or even what constitutes a word, relying on inconsistent and sometimes erroneous romanization, etc?

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

I rely on the research of others for this. I always try to support those with credible expertise in the language and history by buying their books and supporting their platforms. There does unfortunately seem to be far less people in the west doing this with the Korean martial arts, as opposed to Japanese and Okinawan, but hopefully that will change in the future. A lot of good research being done and being made more accessible to the general public in karate history, and that of course is related to Tang Soo Do too.

Belt system is great for every age, memory thing too. They are both great brain exercises which you need through your life to stay healthy. .Combining motor skills, balance, brain exercise al lthe in the same package, nothing beats that in lifespan wise. If someone feels he/she want more sparring they can go to their local kickboxing, Muya Thai, MMA school etc and Im pretty sure they welcome a karateka (after you show you are skilled enough) to spar with them. Of course you need to learn their style a bit which takes few training sessions but I bet when you come from karate you handle the distances much better than say Kick or Muya guys. Not saying those are bad, just different, every MA has their goods and faults.

Right, it really depends on the type of Karate school. Back in the 80s adults were way into Karate, it was the MMA of the time... Lots of Karate styles evolved using a mix of judo, jujitsu, etc. especially in self-defense... Just look up some of old Mas Oyama books and one will see the defense techniques derived from different styles. I took Yoshukai in the 80s which incorporated kickboxing and other styles... also back then Yoshukai had kickboxing champions... in which now involved into Hollywood movies and Cobta Kai... always evolving. I would say, Karate was stunted by MMA and Joe Rogan when they had that old Karate guy vs. some young guy... Joe was lying and bashing Karate, that actually hurt Karate for a period of time... and they all started looking like daycares... but, not so much today... as we all know Karate can be pretty powerful.

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@BlseMetan-mn3pi I don’t know if karate’s popularity among adults was due to better training. I think it had to do more with consumer ignorance. People are better informed today.

Tang soo✊🏼

I agree gotta spar and it don’t have to be super hard like technically spar and turn it up now and then with the higher belts there a lot not aloud I’d like to see more full contact not just point fighting mma is a sport i feel real karate is a art there moves u can’t do but I agree learn outside the box question u have a kid what would I want them to learn karate wrestling bjj all of the above but I feel focus on one as a kid get dominant the branch off ur still young wrestler change my skill set

The reason karate doesn't attract adults is because dojos overwhelmingly market and run geared towards children and are little more than dragon daycare.

Modern shotokan kumite seems to consist of linear hand techniques and non linear leg techniques. Long range intricate footwork takes you in and out of range in a way that simply did not exist in the 1980s. Although this is a skill for an older person this is a lot of wasted energy. I would say an art like wing chun would serve an older person well looking to acquire a skill that will not age out on him.

That's on if you believe WTF Taekwondo should be bypassed for ITF? I hold multiple black belts in WTF but I find myself teaching children more kickboxing in sparring for particular use purposes.

@bogse

23 күн бұрын

Gosh I had to read this multiple times since I read WTF "What the F" many times and couldnt make sense of this, haha.

What i notice is this lie of "traditional martial arts aren't effective in the streets", which translates to "I don't want to put in time and effort in training my muscle memory." Also, i don't see why BJJ is so popular. Rolling over the floor during a fight is something small children do. Imagine fighting someone in an urban area and having to roll through dog feces, broken glass and needles. Ehmmm, no thanks. And MMA is for barbarians who just want to mutilate people. Also, does a MMA gym membership require a tattoo sleeve and a rep sheet or can anyone just join?

@PracticalTangSooDo

22 күн бұрын

@@remc0s no one finds these kind of arguments against BJJ and MMA convincing except for bitter traditionalists that cannot accept change.

@Nethezbet

22 күн бұрын

Bitter, indeed. I dunno where you live, San Francisco? India? ...that you have poop, broken glass and needles all over the ground, but that sounds dangerous 🤣 Small children? Have you been in many real fights? They go to the ground... a lot. In fact, that was my goal in all of my real world fights. There is zero value for me for traditional martial arts. I have no desire to stand toe to toe against someone because then it is anyone's game; anyone can get randomly knocked out in striking. My odds go way up once someone hits the ground because most people that will start a fight in public are untrained. A 6 month white belt in BJJ will have his way with someone that doesn't train BJJ. Further, as discussed in this video, most TMA don't train live, which makes most TMA nothing more than a dance. I fear trained boxers FAR more than any karate-trained fighters because they can actually fight. Oh, and you left out "bUT WhAT abOuT mULtiPLe fiGHtErs?!" IDC what art you train, you can't handle multiple fighters. Situations where someone has won are VERY rare. You can't train for that unless your training is sprinting. My answer to multiple fighters threatening me and my family is a well-known martial art form called 'gun-fu.' lol MMA is for barbarians? Anyone that has been in a fight knows that a fight is pure chaos. It is nothing like TV. There are no pretty moves, everyone resorts to swinging and flailing. And why do you think tattoos = criminals? You need to get out more and stop watching anime.

@wuwei87

22 күн бұрын

​@Nethezbet The debate rages on. I mostly agree with OP, but I also acknowledge that BJJ and MMA are more practical self-defense methods. It all comes down to what martial arts mean to you; for me, focusing solely on something like BJJ would be plumb boring. I prefer TMA because its value is spiritual. I like participating in something that feels ancient, that has mystery, and that is meditative and cultivates a greater realization of a complete human being who is confident and strong while accepting of chaos and change. Street fighting *works* but doesn't hold value to people like me, and that's okay.

@Nethezbet

22 күн бұрын

@@wuwei87 But you are not arguing with me. First the disclaimer, there are absolutely jerks in every community, and many loud-mouthed BJJ players that haven't learned the importance of humility. That being said... the question is not whether a person should or should not train in an art, but WHY they train. I see people doing TKD, karate, aikido, etc for self-defense purposes, and it is nothing more than a dance. I ALSO know people that train those because as you said... that is not why you are there. I hope people do continue to train arts like aikido, it is beautiful to watch like ballet or figure skating. But if you think you are going to defend a committed attacker with it... Maybe we can all agree that it is not best to hammer a screw into a wall.

@wuwei87

22 күн бұрын

@Nethezbet 100%, thank you. I don't train in Tang Soo Do for self-defense; that's not my why. I mean, if someone grabs my collar or wrists from behind, I might be able to subdue them, but that's very different from someone coming at me with the intention to cause serious harm or death, lol. Sparring is great but, like the video says, I'm aware that I'm not really using any of the techniques I've learned when doing so.