As an 'educator' for a lifetime, I would start out by saying to students "I can teach you nothing," to which some would respond "But you are the Teacher!" Much murmuring and disconcerting looks would usually ensure and I would be very well pleased that I had rattled their 'cages.' "What I can do for you," I would continue, "is to help you find the barriers to your learning and help you to take them away," finishing with "if you will trust me to do that."

living legend! Fair play to John Hattie for doing this enormous research study. He has well and truly told the truth! And that's going to be a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people. Bring it on.

That's what we try to do at Education Evidence. We take the research done by Hattie and others and turn it into straight-forward advice for teachers. Geoff Petty's book 'Evidence Based Teaching' is a good guide.

I don't like how he's mentioned class sizes as his first example. I know we're only looking at student achievement, but if he looked at teachers well being or the level happiness as well, he'd know that smaller class sizes makes life much easier for teachers in public schools. I'm worn out with all the marking, report writing, organizing, emailing and looking after about 100~120 students every year.

@globalsoundpromotion

6 жыл бұрын

Very true! The reason to have smaller class sizes is to make the job more fun for the teacher, not to enhance achievements of the students/pupils.

Such a profound contribution to teacher and student learning!

While reducing class size might not show the positive effects that we "think" they should... what has he found out about the effects of INCREASING class size? When class periods are 50 minutes long and 31 students are squeezed into a room (that was designed for 25 (it is a laboratory classroom), the effect is negative. Being able to assess student progress (towards achievement) can be cursory (at best). What is worse, is an inability to actually develop a working repertoire with students when there is less than 2 minutes available per student per class period. Heaven help that any one student has an need for teacher assistance. Content, be damned... I'm worried about making sure they are safe in a lab situation.

My thoughts are as follows. Would be interested to hear any constructive responses. Peer interaction works both ways, surely? Peers can either distract from the class work at hand, or enhance the experience. As to the comparison of abseiling to that of learning trigonometry (or whatever), abseiling has the learner's attention the moment they realise they will be going over the edge. The adrenaline rush at that point is significant. Peer interaction in that scenario is a secondary issue. The learning occurred because of the adrenaline, not because there was peer interaction. A comparison to abseiling in education might be the fear of an impending exam.

I love your two last books. They are very useful for teachers and parents and they must be read by educational politicians.

I think a lot of this is awesome and useful to use! It certainly has made me rethink and evaluate how I teach. I wonder though how can you create such a mega-analysis when the comparison groups are not the same? The business as usual group would change dramatically from study to study. Also, it is instructive I think to point out that with those practices seen as negative to Dr. Hattie, he discredited with the discovered small effect size, but those that he thought were positive in theory (and also low in effect) he seem to discredit the implementation of the practice. I think this is normal, we all view evidence through the filter of our "beliefs" and theories we act upon. I think that this is good as well. I want teacher’s to look at “evidence” critically and compare it to what they have discovered or been taught in the past. But I also think we should continually strive to do better and to refine our beliefs and practices. We should never think that we have it down. Societies change, kids change, we change.

Great work!

Certainly solutions are on offer! The simplest solution is: Stop using low-effect-size methods. This simple act would release time and energy of effective teaching/learning. Second solution: start practising with one or two high-effect methods. Some are really easy.

SO true on retention! Kids dont need to be bashed over head with same things for another year! I always scoffed at summer school concept. Kids cannot learn or refuse to learn the material in an entire school year but now he/she will learn the same amount of material in 6 weeks???!!!

@FlottisPar

8 жыл бұрын

+Christopher Greene It actually worked for some kids at the school where I worked. But that was for those who were close to succeeding, only for one subject, four hours a day, for two weeks.

@kingerz I think he was using abseiling in an analogous sense.

Where can I find the full version?

UK viewers might be interested to know that Osiris Educational is bringing John Hattie to London and Manchester this term to speak on Visible Learning. Places are still available at osiriseducational.co.uk/visible-learning

I would not attempt to compare the academic learning experience with someone completing an abseil. They really are only very superficially similar. It is extremely obvious that someone doing an abseil will be highly interested in the adrenalin-driven first go at an adventure sport. I have taught English for twenty years and I am a qualified mountaineering instructor in Victoria and the UK and I actually feel this example will do little more than make teachers feel unfairly inadequate.

Didn't notice any reference to language or culture.... Is that important?

@FlottisPar

8 жыл бұрын

+SarahinDarwin He looked at what seems to work regardless of culture or language. What seems to be universal.

Always interesting to hear and he makes some good, fair points. Yet as with all theorists, they offer no solution. If the theorists were so sure, they could easily draw up a timetable for teachers and simply tell them what to do. After all, he says 50% of them are no good. Is he? In practice? This usual 'teachers are failures' stuff must be treated with the suspicion it deserves.

Has John Hattie ever actually TAUGHT in a CLASSROOM, and if he did teach, did he teach for more than 3 years or is he simply a DATA wog? It is very EASY to set back and say "this is what needs to be done" and I love how folks that have never had to teach, and be evaluated on their performance in teaching 15 EC students, in a classroom of thirty-two low income, racially diverse students, BASED ON A STANDARDIZED TEST,, tell others how to teach. GOOD TEACHER ALREADY KNOW THIS and are DOING THIS. Now John, try doing this while having to give kids their meds, meet with aggressive parents, deal with multi-personality students and aggressive behavior problems, schedule every parent for a conference 3 times a year, recept money, create and send out a newsletter, answer parent emails/phone calls, etc. While I agree that your information and ideas are correct, I think MAYBE all the data wogs need to ASK GOOD SENIOR TEACHERS how we need to change, LISTEN to them, APPLY their ideas, and FUND EDUCATION rather than simply purchasing the latest, and cheapest "GREAT IDEA". BUT I am SURE you make more than ANY classroom teacher in the country, SO you MUST BE RIGHT! By the way folks "PARADIGM SHIFT" went out in the 80s, I know, I was there.! PLEASE feel free to REPLY. Semper Fi - John S. teacher, tutor, retired Marine

@oakbellUK

6 жыл бұрын

All that Hattie has done in Visible Learning is compile the evidence of classroom experiments. He does not need to have taught to do this. They way to benefit from this work is to see which methods have high effect-size and use your professional judgment to choose 1 or 2 which your judge will be helpful to improve the learning in your classroom. Using effective methods will reduce your workload. EBTN has combined several lists. ebtn.org.uk

@georgelilley6185

5 жыл бұрын

Mike there is way more involved in effect sizes than just looking at which is larger. Hattie admits this in a recent interview with Ollie Lovell where he says ranking effect sizes was a mistake! Peer reviews have shown there are many, many problems with Hattie's work. For example, Prof Adrian Simpson has shown the effect size is determined by the type of test used - a specific algebra test used for an algebra intervention will get a much larger effect size than a standardised test even though the intervention is the same. As a genral rule standardised tests give lower effect sizes than specific content tests. This accounts for why whole school influences like summer school, uniform, class size - which use standardised tests, get lower effect sizes than say feedback which use specific tests. Prof Dylan Wiliam confirms this and says any comparison of effect sizes therefore is 'garbage!"

@oakbellUK

5 жыл бұрын

You are assuming that the actual figure for effect-size (ES) is what is important - it is not. It's the list which the exercise creates. If Hattie does systematically over-estimate ES, as you suggest, then it does not change the order of the list. At EBTN we have not relied on Hattie's effect-sizes alone. We have cross referenced his list with 4 other lists and cross-checked them against neuroscience explanations of the learning process. Please take any one of the recommended methods from this process and send any evidence you have that they are not effective. ebtn.org.uk/big-picture/ The main problem with a "Hattie's numbers are rubbish" approach is that it is usually followed by "so you should listen to me" from the writer. The EEF list has been much more careful than Hattie in choosing high quality research etc, but their list remains compatible. If we don't use numbers such as effect-size, how shall we choose how to spend the precious time/money we have for improving learning? Most of the evidence I have seen suggests that, when teachers reject effective-sizes and other statistics they revert to "I know best" thinking or, as some would call it, 'guesswork'.

@georgelilley6185

5 жыл бұрын

I probably did not explain the peer reviews well enough. They don't suggest systematic overestimation but rather the list order will change depending on the test used, the age of the student, the quality of the research & the sample size. Adrian Simpson, Dylan Wiliam, Robert Slavin and many other academics give details about this. They conclude the ORDER of the list is more a result of the way the study is conducted rather than measuring the effectiveness of the intervention. That's why Dylan Wiliam states comparing effect sizes across Meta-analyses is meaningless. Regarding my assumption the ES is important; this is certainly what Hattie has presented over many years, although he is backtracking now. But his commercial arm - Corwin, is still advertising that it is the size that matters and still lists some things with low ES as influence "that don't work"

@oakbellUK

5 жыл бұрын

Could you answer: "If we don't use numbers such as effect-size, how shall we choose how to spend the precious time/money we have for improving learning? "

He is brilliant.

I think he hasn't heard Christopher Pyne (the Minister for Education in Australia) speaking about class sizes. According to this minister, class sizes have no effect on student learning. Well I think Christopher Pyne needs to listen to this video!

The problem with socialist education is the same problem you get with socialist economics. The economic calculation problem, where measurement of what constitutes performance becomes impossible as it no longer has demand dictating what constitutes value, but some arrogant bureaucrat that will dictate and define what is to be valued and what is meant by performance. Where every choice is no longer a matter of freedom, but a matter of politics. Where a one size fits all education seems plausible and logical. Where we all end up driving the educational equivalent of a Trabant.

Excuse me? You had them for a year, and you failed???? Wow...take down fellow educators, why don't you?

@VISDteaching

3 жыл бұрын

You're a grownup, take the hard truth.

Unbearable nonsens